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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers]
    #20966679 - 12/12/14 12:32 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
It's important to point out which parts are working well and which parts suck, to start to make some efforts towards improvement, and not write them off to subjectivity.




This, above all else I have seen in this thread, seems to me the most logical and rational standpoint. I could be completely wrong - I'm open to that. But I feel the way I do, and I feel that's really well put man.


Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
could it not be considered that a cultural meme which celebrates diversity is more 'human' than one that seeks to prohibit and control?




Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Second, being more “human” is a value (which you equate with “superior”)




Quote:

Lakefingers said:
People like you but, I assume, better-connected. Somehow your values rooted in the past few decades of a liberal capitalist world empire that’s been around for less than a century are objectively superior? How is it that an educated, average citizen living in an urban area in the an imperial culture has found the correct formula for the best culture?








Woah man! Talk about putting words in my mouth. I'm not usually one for personalisms but it strikes me you're a little over-zealous with your cause on this. That was unnecessary.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Icelander]
    #20967102 - 12/12/14 02:36 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I'll accept your point there, but you still have something left to resolve if somebody does not believe that moral judgments have truth values, and can accurately be described as true or false, if they're not based on emotional reactions but a higher motivational center of compassion or brain circuitry than emotion or thought. Some people's individual feelings could be argued to be subjective, because they're at a lower stage of personality development and haven't experienced Self-Realization in the Jungian sense.



:lol:

all judgements of a moral nature are informed by emotion imo. 

:





I'm aware, that's the crux of the definition of subjectivism.  You can dismiss it with a laugh, and avoid dealing with the major counter argument, moral realism, which has existed from the times of Plato, and has been embraced by myriads of philosophers to the present day.  You've given no real argument for subjectivism outside of the most rudimentary explanation, that they're all opinions, personality, emotions (which is, incidentally, part of its definition).

Quote:

What "higher" motivational center?:confused




From emotional-territorial circuits to neuro-somatic circuitry, root chakra to heart chakra, ego to self-realization in Jungian terms, compassion (the ability to understand somebody's emotional state), etc, it's mapped out in many systems.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #20967156 - 12/12/14 02:50 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Don't take it personally, he just mistakenly used your quote to make an argument at me.  Most of the argument has nothing to do you with you.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20967165 - 12/12/14 02:54 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Don't take it personally, he just mistakenly used your quote to make an argument at me.  Most of the argument has nothing to do you with you.




Ah yes, I hadn't looked at it from that point of view! Cheers CJ, everytime man!!


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #20967279 - 12/12/14 03:22 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Heheh, it's just Godwin's law in effect, these things tend to happen during late night internet arguments, I don't take any of it personally.  Pointing out that a society without slavery, female genital mutilation, and pedophile cult leaders is better than one with them draws a logical comparison to Nazis :smirk:.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20967347 - 12/12/14 03:38 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Ha!!

Quote:


Godwin's law (or Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches"




I love that, gave me a bloody good chuckle!


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #20967405 - 12/12/14 03:51 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

What counter argument?  You've presented no evidence that these parts of our personality structure have a hierarchy.  That's subjective again.  If we take nature overall as a model then we'd have to take the functions that insure survival to be the highest  value motivational centers.

You are agreeing with cultural paradigms when I don't see how you know they are valid/real?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Icelander]
    #20967451 - 12/12/14 04:02 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I haven't agreed with anything, only pointed out the philosophy in opposition, and asked how it was resolved and for a more detailed explanation of what your reasoning for subjectivity is, outside of its definition.  As it stands, all I've gotten from you is that morality is subjective because Ice said so.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #20967492 - 12/12/14 04:09 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

It's subjective because in nature overall it doesn't rule.  That would make it very likely to be subjective don't you think?  You put it up there at the top but nature, overall, finds it trivial.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #20967512 - 12/12/14 04:15 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not saying that morality doesn't work or isn't good for humans.  I'm saying that there's ultimately no way to value it as better than anything else that might happen.  I don't really find subjective to be a "bad" word/thing.  I just think subjectivity has limitations one must be aware of to make the best use of it.

If you don't you might end up believing in things just because that's what everyone says works best.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/12/14 04:15 PM)

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #20967538 - 12/12/14 04:21 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Isn't that personifying nature as a human that is capable of being indifferent?  Is that the same thing as nature lacking the capacity to find things trivial?  If the latter is the case, what does it have to do with indifference, a human characteristic?

(I'll be back later, gotta run some errands)


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #20967576 - 12/12/14 04:27 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Evolution favors certain traits over others.  I'm not talking about anything else.

If morality is so real then why doesn't it apply to everything?  Other animals do not act morally by human definition.  I find any morality that doesn't fit in with how the natural world works it's magic to be suspect.  Suspect of being subjective that is.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) *DELETED* [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #20967593 - 12/12/14 04:31 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: "

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) *DELETED* [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20967621 - 12/12/14 04:38 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: "

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Icelander]
    #20968230 - 12/12/14 07:25 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Evolution favors certain traits over others.  I'm not talking about anything else.

If morality is so real then why doesn't it apply to everything?  Other animals do not act morally by human definition.  I find any morality that doesn't fit in with how the natural world works it's magic to be suspect.  Suspect of being subjective that is.




Would you say that a mathematical theorem is objectively true or subjective?  Does that mean that it's universal, that plants and animals can understand and use such knowledge? Or, would you say that perhaps only sentient beings that have evolved to have the faculty of mind can understand and use it?


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #20968405 - 12/12/14 08:01 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
As you point out, that's someone's belief. If they have an example of an objective moral judgment then let's hear it. Certainly a scientific, or some other objetive method would be needed to confirm this? Something more than frontal lobes and reasoning? There isn't such a method though and the assumption remains conjecture.




I've already conceded to your point that science can only inform, but not answer, ethical questions.  I think through science we have learned a great deal about humanity's health and wellbeing and how it is affected by repressive cultures, but that we would be wise to make judgments based upon that information.  Perhaps we can't treat values as incontrovertible facts, but I can still take my time and on occasion make judgments upon which cultures are better, without being shamed that due to subjectivity, I'm delusional for exercising my ability to make judgments.

Quote:

Icelander said: Totally subjective on your part.  Many others find your lifestyle abhorrent and meaningless. If you think you know your way is better then IMO you are delusional.





I'm happy to combine the the pinnacle of what science and philosophy offer us to make the world as just and moral as possible, as I see it, without mistaking the one for the other, though I'm not sure how my original post suggested otherwise.  I'm hardly out there conspiring to hypnotize all of you into doing what I say, and the the maps I draw are subject to revision.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (12/13/14 03:36 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers]
    #20968412 - 12/12/14 08:01 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

You have one culture that looks for real world referents to explain phenomenon and another that just makes shit up, yet it's all 'subjective'.



I know, it's extremely frustrating that people are ignorant cretins who don't think like we do.




it's all in how you apply your subjectivity.
(attitude)




If by apply you mean actually apply yourself to issues when they come up instead of ignoring them, then I agree.



of course I don't mean it in just that limited way.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20968436 - 12/12/14 08:06 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I do not have the means to answer such questions.

It's very hard to understand other animals and what they feel and know.

My guess is everything humans think is subjective.
We don't really understand creation because we are not the creator.  We likely lack the capacity to understand truth.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Icelander]
    #20968653 - 12/12/14 08:41 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I do not have the means to answer such questions.

It's very hard to understand other animals and what they feel and know.

My guess is everything humans think is subjective.
We don't really understand creation because we are not the creator.  We likely lack the capacity to understand truth.




Well, if there is any higher state of consciousness, or shared awareness, that expresses a concern for the suffering of other sentient beings, I'm very doubtful that there's a way to express it in words so that others can understand it. Whatever I spit out into the internet immediately becomes subjective, just a semantic game, and perhaps what I feel is just a different opinion and not higher in any manner (not certain on that, I suspect that it comes through personality development and not an arbitrary change of opinions, which might be an idea that belongs to the world of S&M now than PP&S). I don't blame you for seeing it that way.  If there's philosophical truth, it seems I'm all alone with it :ohwell:.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (12/13/14 12:41 AM)

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Offlineusulpsychonaut
Male

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 2,814
Loc: Northland, New Zealand. Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20969889 - 12/13/14 04:04 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Meh, care has no implicit selflessness to it, and cultures which do provide for the for the health, welfare, and maintenance of something do "care" as far as I'm concerned.  Probably all sorts of care available to you, but you'd just reject the AA, Mr. GG.




This religion of drink and depression has no desire for community. This religion does not want us to come together, to hold hands, to pray or to expose our foolishness to complete strangers that we will never love. Let me alone with my ancestors, my music and my drugs in this forest.

GG Alen/Jesus Christ is a saint, a higher power, if he did his thing now this society would crucify him. Communities are destroying freedom. Individuality is freedom. Community is the bad cultural programming. Never trust a community. Individuality is good cultural programming. Showing men what women really are is good cultural programming. This religion of drink and depression has no want for anything that community has to offer.

United the individual is fucked. Burn the liars. Welfare is the opposite of caring. Welfare is insulting. There is no imagination here, it is a fucked up disappointment forced on populations by the powers that be. The community will ensure that the best individuals are not allowed to be anything.

Edited by usulpsychonaut (12/13/14 04:11 AM)

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