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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20964355 - 12/11/14 10:31 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I never claimed Oregon was utopia, there are undeniably still many injustices and societal problems, but we might be able to solve some of them and slowly make some approximations to a more decent and fair culture to live within.  It's not fast enough for my tastes either, but atm this seems like my best bet.





Wait. You just mentioned another culture that didn't suck.  You could just go there and do what is necessary to become part of that culture. It's not the first time anyone has done that.

Lets face it.  America is pretty similar all the way across.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Icelander]
    #20964655 - 12/11/14 11:40 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I did?  I mentioned that you could determine that a theoretical culture of angry slave masters and slavers who would prefer rape and torture sucked by comparing them to the Piraha people.  I never stated that they were my cultural paradigm for utopia, they lack the opportunities for arts and sciences, western medicine, etc. that are psychologically and physically important to me, but I'm sure there's much that we could learn from them to improve our culture, just as I'm sure they could use our meds for malaria. 

Mainly what appeals to me about life in Portland is that I have greater access to the arts & sciences and I have gained some liberties.  To make it subjective, what rights are we talking about for a place like Ohio, the right to not be in close proximity to fags getting married, cannabis smokers, or people who would opt for death with dignity in the face of a terminal illness?  That's bullshit.  I see no logical reason to believe any of these things are harming others, therefore I think it's the decent and fair thing to not make others suffer by denying them of such liberties.  We have many more to go, but it's a good start for me.

America has some huge problems across the boards, high poverty levels, ridiculous murder rates, incarceration, educational levels.  A lot of countries down right shame us in these regards, but all cultures reveal some truths and hide others.  It's important to point out which parts are working well and which parts suck, to start to make some efforts towards improvement, and not write them off to subjectivity.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Offlineviktor
psychotechnician
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Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
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Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20964806 - 12/12/14 12:29 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

The term "culture", as mentioned above, covers a very broad range of things. Some of it obviously includes lies and manipulations that certain members of the culture tell certain others in order to exploit them. That sort of thing can be transcended, but I'd still hate to lose my appreciation for music, for example.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) *DELETED* [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20964807 - 12/12/14 12:30 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: Reason.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers]
    #20964829 - 12/12/14 12:41 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
You can drop out and go "off the grid" to some extent, but I don't think it would be possible for me to go feral, there's no way I could forget how to read at this point.




If you go off the grid you're enacting the cultural programming, there are just less people around and you can leave behind certain behaviors, but you're still bearing and acting out the culture:

Quote:

Lakefingers said: Even this act is based on cultivated habit, thus I'm still embodying the culture I want to escape from, although arguably at a minimum (but maybe at an extreme).







That might be a good thing to do now and again, though.  To some extent, I think brighter minds can quiet their culture programming down to a minimum to reach some place where they see things intuitively, and then come back into their culture and paint a new semantic map, build a new model of experience.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) *DELETED* [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20964956 - 12/12/14 01:42 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

Edited by Lakefingers (12/12/14 05:20 AM)

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers]
    #20965071 - 12/12/14 02:56 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said: could it not be considered that a cultural meme which celebrates diversity is more 'human' than one that seeks to prohibit and control?





I didn't actually say this, I believe it was Jokeshopbeard?  I'll leave the response to him, it would be nice if you edited that one.

Quote:

So the system you live in is better because it reflects your values. This is why Icelander says it’s subjective on your part.





Quote:

First, slaves and masters won’t self-identify to the extent you portray here.

Second, if this isn’t just your opinion, how was the majority for it in the United States? Was that not their opinion? How about Ancient Rome? Ancient Greece? Ancient Egypt? Among Native Americans? In Medieval Europe? In Russia until the 18th century? In Africa? In almost every ancient and pre-modern society?

Third, you’d like your culture to be the master culture, right? What I see from liberal master cultures is frustration and misery like you see in the Midwest you mention. Even in a self-proclaimed tolerant, liberal master culture, the dominant order must suppress opinions by means of ethics, laws, media, morals, normative public discourse, propaganda, schooling, etc. There are a lot of angry losers even in a "human", liberal culture. Even in this culture there are a lot of slaves waiting to take power back and have things their way so things can be “human” again.

You also write about civility, but civility is culturally defined. Ultimately it is delineated by culturally and locally specific norms.

So, you and Icelander are speaking about different things. Icelander is right in saying that you can’t claim your values are better and that it's surprising you're so enchanted by them. In the context of argument, it would be more reasonable to accept that and move on by saying that while that may be true, it doesn’t mean that we can’t discuss ethical guidelines.





I got Ice's point, so goes the argument that because there are competing realities, there is no objective proof that some values are "better" than others, rather only serve some people more than others.

I don't give a fuck.

91% of Egyptian women have had their clitorises forcibly removed.  98% of Somalian women have. Saudi women can't vote, or drive, or hold a job, or leave the house without a man. Overwhelming majorities in every Muslim country say a wife is always obliged to obey her husband.

:puke:

No, I hardly think that I exist within 'the Master Culture', but for all our problems, I argue the freedoms, culture, and legal structure in Oregon are "better" than some other societies. That may not qualify as 'proof', but I don't believe I'm delusional.  If I am that mesmerized by my own beliefs to think that female genital mutilation is fucked up beyond belief is a universal truth, so be it :shrug:.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (12/12/14 03:17 AM)

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Offlineusulpsychonaut
Male

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 2,814
Loc: Northland, New Zealand. Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #20965198 - 12/12/14 04:46 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Totally subjective on your part.  Many others find your lifestyle abhorrent and meaningless. If you think you know your way is better then IMO you are delusional.




Whilst I agree on the subjectivity Ice, could it not be considered that a cultural meme which celebrates diversity is more 'human' than one that seeks to prohibit and control?

Ideal world stuff of course, but I'm interested in your thoughts on this theory.




Celebrating diversity in my experience is oppression. Everything I am is abhorrent to all the do goody diversity fanatics. These indoctrinated diversity idiots omitted every trace of my ancestral awareness and replaced it with socially enforced shame and guilt. I am completely illegitimate and constantly insulted in public places and no one will ever give a shit, least of all a brain dead wanker blathering about celebrating diversity. Tolerance and sensitivity is bullshit. Universities train all the victims to hate me, to feel that hating me is good. What is maddening is knowing that I am still operating on other lies that I am not yet aware of.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: resonant111]
    #20965236 - 12/12/14 05:11 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

resonant111 said:
the only cultural programming one really needs to break free from is the guilt/judgment complex hammered into our collective unconscious by religion and authority figures.

so many people are operating on the "fear of judgment" frequency. so many people have built up walls of inhibition and fear -- afraid to move by true will, in fear of being judged or condemned by others. by true will, i mean living as honestly and authentically as possible, without constantly fearing punishment.

instead of living by true will, so many of us perpetually fear judgment, inhibit our true creative power and always feel as if something is missing. that's why so many people have depression and anxiety disorders nowadays -- their "will" is literally buried away inside of them. always WANTING to live, but feeling guilty about it. always feeling anxious and afraid to let go.

funny part is, it's pretty easy to live by true will. all you have to do is BE REAL and not give a fuck what anyone thinks about you. and when you do this, the funniest little thing happens -- you start to experience love for yourself, and for the world. and at that point, you see how pointless the opinions of others really are. who cares if they are judging you? you are love! love cannot be destroyed! so fuck em!

obviously there are times when we gotta throttle the dis-inhibition back and be more "tame and civilized" but as a whole, we should be pushing the limits of this concept as far as humanly possible. and we should be surrounding ourselves with individuals who feel the same.




Thank You for this post.  The cultural programming is largely done to enslave us into being good little boys and girls who don't speak out against the way things are.  Don't misbehave, and you won't be punished or made to feel guilty, or bad.

The harsh judgments on here are typical of this protection of the "culture" which is largely nothing more than a control grid disguised as somehow being a free state.  Look into the history of "public relations" and the fact that the term can still be used and a "PR man" is OK speaks to the success of this approach.  The people that put cigarettes in the hands of women and called them freedom sticks kind of thing and it works.  Because people are easily steered if done in the proper way, that is to say if they believe smoking on the street was in their best interests to show how "liberated" cancer can be.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Offlineusulpsychonaut
Male

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 2,814
Loc: Northland, New Zealand. Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20965250 - 12/12/14 05:21 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I wasn't arguing that the slave masters are happy, rather they are the ones that are ruling the culture, and reject the idea of emancipation. 

It's through comparing cultures, say one with angry slave masters and slaves that would be prefer to be raped and beaten over death, and another culture like the Pirahã people in the video you once linked 'Secrets to Happiness', that I'm confident in my ability to assess which society is behaving more civilly.  It might even be able to be measured scientifically, in terms of each individual's stress levels :shrug:.

Say we have a society that values kicking dogs to take out their frustrations, and is using a verbal map of subjectivity to bamboozle the credulous into respecting their relativity... Nature doesn't have the capacity to care, only you do and your ability to say look, this culture of primate a. stressing out animal a. or primate b. and using thoughts about subjectivity to justify it is bullshit, and that a culture in which kicking dogs is considered immoral is better.

That doesn't mean I have to be a self-righteous fuckwad at all living hours to maintain such beliefs, only to speak out when I see injustice - most of the time, I prefer to listen to music and get high.




It's not possible to really care about injustice. Fish fin eating fish. Fleas. Roadkill. Moths and other insects trapped in my lamp shade. Chicken pox. Absurd people calling me out as a slave master. No one gives a shit about any injustice done to me because apparently I'm a slave master. I'm finally learning not to give a shit about anyone but myself. Caring is never genuine, it is always self serving and may as well be done without all together.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: usulpsychonaut] * 1
    #20965286 - 12/12/14 05:37 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Meh, care has no implicit selflessness to it, and cultures which do provide for the for the health, welfare, and maintenance of something do "care" as far as I'm concerned.  Probably all sorts of care available to you, but you'd just reject the AA, Mr. GG.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) *DELETED* [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20965290 - 12/12/14 05:38 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #20965300 - 12/12/14 05:44 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Alas, "value judgments are subjective" was the argument, not the explanation, and it has to have some reasoning behind it or it can simply be counter argued with "some value judgments aren't subjective, but rather representations of better standards."  Voila.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (12/12/14 05:59 AM)

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20965337 - 12/12/14 06:08 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

No, because "better standards" comes down to a value judgment. "Better" blows the cover, but even "standards" are culture that is followed in order to promote specific behavior according to contextual ethical norms, which are not objective.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #20965394 - 12/12/14 06:37 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I admit that was poorly stated, but I think the standards can get us more facts than opinions, from say the scientific method. I don't agree that the dismissal of climate change, which is primarily motivated by the fossil fuels lobby, could be considered as subjectively valid as the scientific consensus on global warming.  Similarly, I don't agree that Mormons can "cure" gay people.  You have one culture that looks for real world referents to explain phenomenon and another that just makes shit up, yet it's all 'subjective'.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (12/12/14 06:44 AM)

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) *DELETED* [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20965419 - 12/12/14 06:50 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #20965629 - 12/12/14 08:01 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I'll accept your point there, but you still have something left to resolve if somebody does not believe that moral judgments have truth values, and can accurately be described as true or false, if they're not based on emotional reactions but a higher motivational center of compassion or brain circuitry than emotion or thought. Some people's individual feelings could be argued to be subjective, because they're at a lower stage of personality development and haven't experienced Self-Realization in the Jungian sense.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (12/12/14 08:11 AM)

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #20966293 - 12/12/14 11:02 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)


:lol: I feel like we're back at square one.


indeed


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #20966306 - 12/12/14 11:05 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I'll accept your point there, but you still have something left to resolve if somebody does not believe that moral judgments have truth values, and can accurately be described as true or false, if they're not based on emotional reactions but a higher motivational center of compassion or brain circuitry than emotion or thought. Some people's individual feelings could be argued to be subjective, because they're at a lower stage of personality development and haven't experienced Self-Realization in the Jungian sense.



:lol:

all judgements of a moral nature are informed by emotion imo. 

What "higher" motivational center?:confused:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers]
    #20966583 - 12/12/14 12:05 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

You have one culture that looks for real world referents to explain phenomenon and another that just makes shit up, yet it's all 'subjective'.



I know, it's extremely frustrating that people are ignorant cretins who don't think like we do.




it's all in how you apply your subjectivity.
(attitude)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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