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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) *DELETED* * 1
    #20961273 - 12/11/14 09:30 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: "

Edited by Lakefingers (12/11/14 09:41 AM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #20961558 - 12/11/14 11:00 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Cut from another thread but this is how I have come to see it

Quote:

Kickle said:
... And in the process of trying to survive life, the goal of making culture work to my benefit is the same as self-improvement. May as well try and improve on the cultural imprints in my mind since that's what I am.

Of course there will be limitations. But each of us interprets and reacts to culture differently. So there is no singular culture to begin with IMO. Just commonalities that we like to lump in our head. And some commonalities are quite rare but still there.




--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #20961606 - 12/11/14 11:16 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
A few weeks ago OneMoreRobot3021 posted an interview with Aldous Huxley. In the interview Huxley says:

Quote:

Basically we are at once the beneficiaries and the victims of our culture. Without our culture we couldn't do anything at all. We should be baboons, apes. But any given culture is ambivalent. It permits one ... to be fully human, but at the same time it limits our humanity. It imposes certain kinds of prejudices, certain kinds of likes and dislikes upon us. ... Any self-actualizing human is one who to some extent breaks out of his culture.




PS&P often gets into this issue and calls it "cultural programming." There's a thread more or less about it that was started today: liars and conformists. Other threads are Reviewing one's existence and
Our Cultural Programming. Search for the term and you'll find many threads and posts on it.

The board members seem to focus on the oppressive side of it, which may be a result of the shock of awakening to the amazing span of it. Based on board members' reactions, and all my reading and time on Earth, I've gathered that only a minority of humans ever begin appreciating the magnitude of this insight. It seems everyone who comes to this realization reacts with some form of alienation, anger, denial, distress, guilt and resentment. But where would you be without cultural programming and the trip into its rabbit hole after realizing its breadth? What about acceptance, transformation and self-actualization?





I appreciate it and have been trying to hammer the idea that the middle path on these type issues bring the best, workable results.  Many hate culture but would be completely lost without it.  Having taken some semi serious survival training what I learned mostly was that unless the conditions were almost perfect I would have a hell of a time surviving in wilderness. Especially without modern technology, which is culture.

Wake up folks.  There is no black and white and if you want to have workable methods for living the middle path is your best bet. It may take longer to get there and you may have to stifle your knee jerk reactions to see what is in front of you but in the end it's well worth it unless you just need to rant and then do nothing.  YMMV


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #20961650 - 12/11/14 11:27 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Culture is not only good and bad, it is everything to us.

Physicist-philosopher David Bohm described thought as a system, and pointed out that absolutely everything in the human world is a part of that system.  I.e., that everything is made of thought, from whoopee cushions to social security to the most abstract philosophies.  As soon as something outside the system is perceived and cognized, it then becomes part of the system.  So there is a sphere of thought that can be thought of as a unified system, and everything human is part of that system.

So, obviously, good, bad, evil, strange, purple, expensive, mathematical, annoying -- everything is a part of the system.  Lakefingers is absolutely correct that to pin down certain drawbacks, and ignore everything else, as if you have transcended culture or something, is folly.  Culture, which is tied up centrally in this system of thought, is essentially everything to us.  Our brains are literally wired up by and composed of the system.  It colors everything.  To say culture is negative and one has left it behind in favor of enlightenment or whatever is like a fish saying he has transcended water.  It makes no sense.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #20961727 - 12/11/14 11:55 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

That's not what the word transcend means though, it means to go beyond the limitations, not get rid of.  None of us here are getting rid of the alphabet, for example.  Some cultural programming you can transcend though, that of being influenced by thought that plays on emotional hooks and has no real reference to reality - such as organized religion, patriotism, and consumer advertising.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke] * 2
    #20961771 - 12/11/14 12:08 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Unfortunately imo we just trade those ideas for something similar but unrecognizable to us for the moment.

All culture is religion to me.  Even the rejection of religion. :haha:

Of course in my world view DA is right at the core of all this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #20961805 - 12/11/14 12:16 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think so,  I think religion is based on frightening people and selling them selling them on a belief system as a cure for their DA.  Substituting that trip and spending your time cultivating an appreciation of music, for example, is a valuable way to spend your time.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #20961815 - 12/11/14 12:18 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

You're still caught up in culture even if some belief systems suit you better than others but imo they are all essentially the same.  :shrug:  That's how I sees this shit.

Some religions work on the scare you principle but not all necessarily.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/11/14 12:19 PM)

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Offlineresonant111
left ∞ right

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 1,952
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Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Icelander] * 2
    #20961911 - 12/11/14 12:42 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

the only cultural programming one really needs to break free from is the guilt/judgment complex hammered into our collective unconscious by religion and authority figures.

so many people are operating on the "fear of judgment" frequency. so many people have built up walls of inhibition and fear -- afraid to move by true will, in fear of being judged or condemned by others. by true will, i mean living as honestly and authentically as possible, without constantly fearing punishment.

instead of living by true will, so many of us perpetually fear judgment, inhibit our true creative power and always feel as if something is missing. that's why so many people have depression and anxiety disorders nowadays -- their "will" is literally buried away inside of them. always WANTING to live, but feeling guilty about it. always feeling anxious and afraid to let go.

funny part is, it's pretty easy to live by true will. all you have to do is BE REAL and not give a fuck what anyone thinks about you. and when you do this, the funniest little thing happens -- you start to experience love for yourself, and for the world. and at that point, you see how pointless the opinions of others really are. who cares if they are judging you? you are love! love cannot be destroyed! so fuck em!

obviously there are times when we gotta throttle the dis-inhibition back and be more "tame and civilized" but as a whole, we should be pushing the limits of this concept as far as humanly possible. and we should be surrounding ourselves with individuals who feel the same.


--------------------

Edited by resonant111 (12/11/14 01:00 PM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #20961930 - 12/11/14 12:49 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Unfortunately imo we just trade those ideas for something similar but unrecognizable to us for the moment.

All culture is religion to me.  Even the rejection of religion. :haha:

Of course in my world view DA is right at the core of all this.




I agree and see a big upside to this point of view for some. A way to trick the mind into relaxing, if only for a time, away from the seriousness of our personal thoughts.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #20961937 - 12/11/14 12:50 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think they're the same at all, some cultures fuckin' suck...  Say you were born into this world in a cult Mormon compound like the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints, which was ran by a twisted evil child raping fuckwad that aimed to eliminate all aspects of culture except their religious programming -forming bonds with your children was idolizing them, music and dancing a sin, etc. etc.  As long as you accept this culture, you're doomed to a life of misery.

One's ability to reject aspects of culture that harm them and select from the myriads of cultural interests they enjoy is liberation imho.  Being caught up is not existing within culture, it's being scared into conforming to cultural programs that do not serve you, when there's a whole world of paintings, blueprints, words, concepts, theories, music that do.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #20962080 - 12/11/14 01:29 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Some people really like being Mormons and the framework it provides. Are you saying your way is better than that and for everyone?   

Tell me about the culture that doesn't suck.  I'm all eyes.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) *DELETED* [Re: resonant111]
    #20962165 - 12/11/14 01:56 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

Edited by Lakefingers (12/11/14 02:28 PM)

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #20962196 - 12/11/14 02:08 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I mentioned a specific cult-compound ran by a thought policing derelict that ensured the suffering of everybody, not Mormonism in general.  Check out "I Escaped A Cult" on Netflix (I just watched it so it was fresh on my mind), or the wiki of its leader. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs

But fuck it, yes, my way is better than Mormonism, because it's one that celebrates diversity and personal choice.  Mormons, for example, prohibit sexual relations outside of a marital relation between husband and wife. They teach that homosexuality is curable, and they shun those from their family that think otherwise.  Everything they teach is contrary to scientific evidence, and their belief systems will inevitably tear families apart and cause much suffering. 

It's a shitty religion imho.

Check into DIY Maker's Faire culture, it's awesome imho :awesomenod:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,885
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #20962299 - 12/11/14 02:33 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
DividedQuantum: Culture is not only thought, but also your bodily movements. An enormous effort went into teaching you to use everything properly, to speak, to use body language. Without this brute aspect of culture you'd be drooling, stupid beast. Most of us are that still much of the time.




I agree completely, and just to clarify for the record, in Bohm's thesis "thought" corresponds to everything the nervous system is doing.  So to him, bodily movements would be physical "thoughts."


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20962323 - 12/11/14 02:39 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I mentioned a specific cult-compound ran by a thought policing derelict that ensured the suffering of everybody, not Mormonism in general.  Check out "I Escaped A Cult" on Netflix (I just watched it so it was fresh on my mind), or the wiki of its leader. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs

But fuck it, yes, my way is better than Mormonism, because it's one that celebrates diversity and personal choice.  Mormons, for example, prohibit sexual relations outside of a marital relation between husband and wife. They teach that homosexuality is curable, and they shun those from their family that think otherwise.  Everything they teach is contrary to scientific evidence, and their belief systems will inevitably tear families apart and cause much suffering. 

It's a shitty religion imho.

Check into DIY Maker's Faire culture, it's awesome imho :awesomenod:





Totally subjective on your part.  Many others find your lifestyle abhorrent and meaningless. If you think you know your way is better then IMO you are delusional.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) *DELETED* [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20962362 - 12/11/14 02:48 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: Reason.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #20962381 - 12/11/14 02:52 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

The book I'm drawing this from is called, appropriately, Thought as a System.  It is also touched on in other works, such as a couple of essays in The Essential David Bohm and more extensively in The Ending of Time, which is a set of dialogues between him and Krishnamurti.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) *DELETED* [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20962385 - 12/11/14 02:54 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: Reason.

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: Cultural Programming (Good and Bad) [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #20962388 - 12/11/14 02:54 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Totally subjective on your part.  Many others find your lifestyle abhorrent and meaningless. If you think you know your way is better then IMO you are delusional.




Whilst I agree on the subjectivity Ice, could it not be considered that a cultural meme which celebrates diversity is more 'human' than one that seeks to prohibit and control?

Ideal world stuff of course, but I'm interested in your thoughts on this theory.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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