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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations"
    #2095031 - 11/12/03 02:07 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Time for Bush to be indicted for crimes against humanity:

Iraq 'faces severe health crisis'


The people of Iraq may have poorer health for generations as a result of the war, according to a report.

Medical charity Medact says this year's conflict disrupted immunisation programmes and destroyed water systems, increasing levels of disease.

Environmental degradation and smoke from oil fires are adding to the health problems of Iraqis, it reports.

Continuing insecurity in Iraq, along with the breakdown of public health services, are exacerbating the problem.

Death toll

Entitled Continuing Collateral Damage: the health and environmental costs of war on Iraq, the report estimates that between 22,000 and 55,000 people - mainly Iraqi soldiers and civilians - died as a direct result of the war.

There has been a reported increase in maternal mortality rates, acute malnutrition has almost doubled, and there is an increase in water-borne diseases and vaccine-preventable diseases

Dr Sabya Farooq
Report author
It says that mines and unexploded bombs continue to kill and maim.

The report says that the conflict and its aftermath have put the most vulnerable in society - women, children and the elderly - at risk.

A quarter of a million children were not vaccinated against measles once the conflict started.

Although immunisation campaigns have resumed, it has not been possible to confirm if these children received the jab.


A guide to living conditions and the reconstruction effort in Iraq


In detail

Dr Sabya Farooq, author of the charity's report, told the BBC: "It's mainly the ongoing violence and insecurity which, in addition to the breakdown of public health services, is posing the main risk to public health.

"There has been a reported increase in maternal mortality rates, acute malnutrition has almost doubled from 4% to 8% in the last year and there is an increase in water-borne diseases and vaccine-preventable diseases."

Data collection

Measuring what is happening to the Iraqi people's health is proving very difficult, the report says.

The United Nations and many aid agencies have only a minimum presence in the country and so cannot carry out the data collection necessary to initiate public health policies.

In its conclusion, the report recommends that the occupying powers allow the UN to play the central role in peacekeeping and in the humanitarian and reconstruction process.

Medact is a British-based grouping of health professionals which aims to highlight the health impacts of conflict, poverty and environmental degradation, and work to eradicate them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3259489.stm


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: Xlea321]
    #2095078 - 11/12/03 02:16 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

All to get one man and his cronies  :nonono:


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: trendal]
    #2095125 - 11/12/03 02:26 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Without interaction those people could have had years of systematic torture, starvation, execution and filler for mass graves. Lets all bow our heads.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2095648 - 11/12/03 05:45 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Entitled Continuing Collateral Damage: the health and environmental costs of war on Iraq, the report estimates that between 22,000 and 55,000 people - mainly Iraqi soldiers and civilians - died as a direct result of the war.




8754 civilian deaths using Iraq Body Count as for Iraqi military losses they're almost impossible to measure. Ever since the US's supposed inflation of enemy casualty figures during Vietnam, the Pentagon hasn't kept a body count for the opposing side.

Analysts point to the 1991 Gulf War as a reminder that first tallies can be deceptive.

After the war ended, the world was told as many as 100,000 Iraqi soldiers were killed. A decade later, researchers say between 10,000 and 15,000 soldiers died.
-Associated Press


Quote:

It says that mines and unexploded bombs continue to kill and maim.




The vast majority of mines are left-overs from Saddam's reign, as for unexploded bombs I don't believe they are anywhere near as widespread as this article would like us to believe.


Quote:

The report says that the conflict and its aftermath have put the most vulnerable in society - women, children and the elderly - at risk.

A quarter of a million children were not vaccinated against measles once the conflict started.

Although immunisation campaigns have resumed, it has not been possible to confirm if these children received the jab.




210,000 Iraqi newborns have not been vaccinated in the three month period since military action began. The Vaccine and Serum Institute in Baghdad was hit by missiles during the conflict which had a detrimental effect on vaccine sotres. However, looters also played a huge part

"More damage was caused when looters tore apart wiring, compressors, and circuit boards at the institute, making immediate emergency repairs to the cold chain impossible. In the end, all vaccine stocks were spoiled and had to be destroyed,"

The situation is readily improving though

To overcome this situation, UNICEF has been bringing millions of doses of vaccines into Iraq to restart the country's routine immunization program in partnership with the reactivated Ministry of Health. The 25 million doses of vaccines were purchased through a $3.2 million grant from USAID.

UNICEF has also been working with health officials to repair Iraq's cold chain system so that the vaccines that are brought in can be properly stored. The $1.85 million rehabilitation project was covered by funds from DFID (United Kingdom).


Quote:

In its conclusion, the report recommends that the occupying powers allow the UN to play the central role in peacekeeping and in the humanitarian and reconstruction process.




Unfortunately the chances of that happening are zilch...







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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 788
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: trendal]
    #2096368 - 11/12/03 10:33 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

its not about saddam or his cronies
its aboot fuel.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2096598 - 11/12/03 11:53 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

After the war ended, the world was told as many as 100,000 Iraqi soldiers were killed. A decade later, researchers say between 10,000 and 15,000 soldiers died

Nah, that's complete bullshit. Using just one example of a researcher - Beth Osbournes final estimates for the Iraqi dead ended up being even higher than her initial estimates. Around 205,000 dead.

Even the Defense Intelligence Agency said 100,000 plus or minus 50,000.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/feb2003/nf2003026_0167_db052.htm

as for unexploded bombs I don't believe they are anywhere near as widespread as this article would like us to believe.

Any evidence? Or do you believe this simply because you support Bush?



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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: Xlea321]
    #2096729 - 11/12/03 12:40 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Nah, that's complete bullshit. Using just one example of a researcher - Beth Osbournes final estimates for the Iraqi dead ended up being even higher than her initial estimates. Around 205,000 dead.

Even the Defense Intelligence Agency said 100,000 plus or minus 50,000.




My point exactly, with so many different estimates with such a large range it is impossible to get a conclusive figure.
Although im inclined to believe the figure was far less than 100,000 and a lot closer to the Associated Press estimate.

After the war ended, the world was told as many as 100,000 Iraqi soldiers were killed.

Perhaps thats the estimate being reffered to?

As for the mines what are you asking for evidence of, their existence? There are thousands of mines scattered across Iraq, its mentioning in the article you posted is unusual. The number of land mine related fatalaties and injuries in Iraq is minute in comparison to those recorded in African states.
Aswell as that in 1997 110 countries singed a treaty banning the production and stockpiling of anti-personnel mines therefore the majority of mines in Iraq can be attributed to Saddam.

Quote:

Or do you believe this simply because you support Bush?




Sad....


--------------------
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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2097248 - 11/12/03 02:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

My point exactly, with so many different estimates with such a large range it is impossible to get a conclusive figure.

I don't think a conclusive figure is the be-all and end-all here. There will never be a conclusive figure for the holocaust either. All we know is there was a horrendous loss of life.

Although im inclined to believe the figure was far less than 100,000 and a lot closer to the Associated Press estimate.

I repeat, why do you believe this? Incidentally the figure you quote isn't an "Associated press" estimate. Do you have any idea where that figure comes from?

As for the mines what are you asking for evidence of

I wasn't aware I'd asked for any evidence. What are you referring to?

Sad....

Can you give us a reason why you believe it if not belief in Bush? Most researchers disagree with you enormously.



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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: Xlea321]
    #2097269 - 11/12/03 03:04 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Saddam Hussein put a majority of his troops near civilian centers. He had his Republican Guard hiding out in elemenatry schools. It's not our fault that he did that, we'd have been more than willing to decimate his weak forces on the battlefields. His lack of honor lead to our actions.

I do feel bad that those people had to die, however. War is a sad thing all around. How many hundreds of thousands died in the bombing of civilian centers in German/Nazi terrority in WWII?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2097305 - 11/12/03 03:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Could Bush ever do wrong in your eyes?


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: Xlea321]
    #2100390 - 11/13/03 06:52 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think a conclusive figure is the be-all and end-all here. There will never be a conclusive figure for the holocaust either. All we know is there was a horrendous loss of life.




A more accurate statement would be "I dont think."
Yet another reference to the Nazi Germany you do realise there was a world before WWII?, anyway the figure for the holocaust is based on Nazi reports, Allied findings aswell as numerous other sources and is generally accepted. Plus comparing the death of at most 150,000 Iraqi soldiers to that of 6 million innocent civilains is pointless.
Here is yet another source detailing the inflations of Iraqi military casualties after and during the Gulf War.

Quote:

How many Iraqis died?

Independent analysts generally agree the Iraqi death toll was well below initial post-war estimates. In the immediate aftermath of the war, these estimates ranged as high as 100,000 Iraqi troops killed and 300,000 wounded.

According to "Gulf War Air Power Survey" by Thomas A. Keaney and Eliot A. Cohen, (a report commissioned by the U.S. Air Force; 1993-ISBN 0-16-041950-6), there were an estimated 10-12,000 Iraqi combat deaths in the air campaign and as many as 10,000 casualties in the ground war. This analysis is based on enemy prisoner of war reports.

The Iraqi government says 2,300 civilians died during the air campaign.

One infamous incident during the war highlighted the question of large-scale Iraqi combat deaths. This was the `bulldozer assault' in which two brigades from the U.S. Army's 1st Infantry Division (Mechanized)--The Big Red One--used plows mounted on tanks and combat earthmovers to bury Iraqi soldiers defending the fortified "Saddam Line."

While approximately 2,000 of the troops surrendered, escaping burial, one newspaper story reported that the U.S. commanders estimated thousands of Iraqi soldiers had been buried alive during the two-day assault February 24-25, 1991.

However, like all other troop estimates made during the war, the estimated 8,000 Iraqi defenders was probably greatly inflated. While one commander thought the numbers might have been in the thousands, another reported his brigade buried between 80 and 250 Iraqis. After the war, the Iraqi government found 44 bodies.




Quote:

I repeat, why do you believe this? Incidentally the figure you quote isn't an "Associated press" estimate. Do you have any idea where that figure comes from?




I believe this because many soures both governmental and indepedant have reached the same conclusion, unlike yours which is based on a the word of a single woman....

Quote:

Can you give us a reason why you believe it if not belief in Bush?




Belief in Bush? again I ask what do you mean, I need not believe in Bush I know for fact he exists. Or do you mean belief in his judgement? if so, no I believe in my own judgement, a belief many people seem to lack. Or could it be your simply making a stereotypical non-statement as usual.

It would appear to be the latter...

Quote:

Most researchers disagree with you enormously.




Disgaree with me enormously on what? My belief in the existance of Bush, the landmine situtation, the number of Iraqi military casualties. Try to be more clear when responding to specific points
and perhaps you can substantiate some of your claims with evidnce.







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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2101071 - 11/13/03 11:59 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

A more accurate statement would be "I dont think."

For you certainly.

Yet another reference to the Nazi Germany you do realise there was a world before WWII?

You're missing the point. It's about the difficulty of getting "conclusive" figures in war situations.

anyway the figure for the holocaust is based on Nazi reports, Allied findings aswell as numerous other sources and is generally accepted.

Not as a "conclusive figure". The 6 million comes mainly from comparing census reports in Europe from the late 1920's to after the war. Not very accurate at all. You clearly know nothing about how the 6 million figure was reached. 

Plus comparing the death of at most 150,000 Iraqi soldiers to that of 6 million innocent civilains is pointless.

We arn't comparing that. We're comparing the difficulty in reaching "conclusive" fatality figures. Pay attention.

Here is yet another source detailing

"Yet another"? Your first "source" was an associated press report quoting anonymous researchers. You provided no link, and provide no link this time. 

I believe this because many soures both governmental and indepedant have reached the same conclusion

That 10,000-15,000 Iraqis died in the first Gulf war? Sorry but I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one. Provide a source.

unlike yours which is based on a the word of a single woman....

A highly-respected researcher who spent a decade studying the subject. Also note the Defence Intelligence Agency figure quoted in the article.

"A single woman.." sounds remarkably sexist too. 

Belief in Bush? again I ask what do you mean,

You keep repeating statements like "I believe not many people died..". I have asked you repeatedly to provide the evidence you base this belief on. You have provided none whatsoever. I repeat, what are you basing your "beliefs" on if not evidence? 

Disgaree with me enormously on what?

That 10-15,000 Iraqis died in the first Gulf war.

My belief in the existance of Bush

What are you talking about? How many researchers have ever questioned you about believing everything George Bush says?

and perhaps you can substantiate some of your claims with evidnce

The irony.. :lol:


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Anonymous

Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: Xlea321]
    #2101081 - 11/13/03 12:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Medact is a British-based grouping of health professionals which aims to highlight the health impacts of conflict, poverty and environmental degradation, and work to eradicate them.

hardly an unbiased source of information on the subject, don't you think?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: ]
    #2101722 - 11/13/03 02:42 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Why do you say that?


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Anonymous

Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: Xlea321]
    #2101916 - 11/13/03 03:36 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

their agenda is quite clear.

as of yet, i have not seen any number above 10,000 confirmed civilian deaths, even from the most biased tallying.

to reach even the low end of it's rather imprecise estimate, the medact report has included killed iraqi soldiers and guerillas. i'm more concerned about non-combatants.

to reach the upper end, its included "estimates" based on how many civilians they think have died indirectly from the conflict due to things like breakdowns in the healthcare system in iraq; not confirmed civilian deaths directly linked to the war.

the 22,000-55,000 number is just one group's estimate of how many total iraqis are dead right now that wouldn't be if not for the war.

who really knows how many have been killed, indirectly and directly, from the war?

to put 10,000 into perspective, from the death rate and population size in iraq, we can see that almost 150,000 iraqis die every year from all causes combined. we can see that 10,000 people equals .04% of iraq's population, or one person for every 2468 people.

from reports from various human rights agencies, we can see that hussein's government directly killed hundreds of thousands during its tenure in iraq. we can see that the UN sanctions resulting from hussein's non-compliance with weapons agreements killed and impoverished thousands.

yes, civilians died in this war. civilians died because of the effects of this war. iraqi soldiers died in this war as well.

how many would die if not for the war? how many more would have died at the hands of hussein's regime? how many more would have died from the sanctions?

well... medact is a group interested in the public health effects of conflict, not those of tyranny, so we can be sure that that's a question they're not entirely concerned with.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: ]
    #2101954 - 11/13/03 03:47 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

their agenda is quite clear.

What agenda is this mush? They're health professionals for heavens sake!


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Anonymous

Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: Xlea321]
    #2101971 - 11/13/03 03:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

let's assume then that there numbers are based on informed and accurate information. the rest of my post still stands.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: Xlea321]
    #2111048 - 11/16/03 09:25 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

We arn't comparing that. We're comparing the difficulty in reaching "conclusive" fatality figures. Pay attention.




The comparison was not needed, It would appear you seem to suffer from an unhealthy obession with concentration camps. You ask me to pay attention I ask you to refine your arguments.

Quote:

"Yet another"? Your first "source" was an associated press report quoting anonymous researchers. You provided no link, and provide no link this time.




Associated Press Report
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030417-iraq01.htm

How many Iraqi's died?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/appendix/death.html

There are the links, I've shown my cards what about yours :tongue:

Quote:

That 10,000-15,000 Iraqis died in the first Gulf war? Sorry but I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one. Provide a source.




No, and to quote you. "Pay attention!". Many sources, I have provided two, agree that far less than 100,000 Iraqi soldiers died during the first Gulf War and I ask you to stick to one subject we are discussing Iraqi soldier fatalaties.

Quote:

A highly-respected researcher who spent a decade studying the subject. Also note the Defence Intelligence Agency figure quoted in the article.




Indeed Daponte could be considered a respected researcher I will save the best to last however....

Quote:

"A single woman.." sounds remarkably sexist too. 




To you perhaps, however, I was unaware Daponte objects to being called a woman. If so I should rephrase "a non-male homo sapien sapien" does that conform to your list of acceptable language?

Anyway its not a single woman I apologise its a single woman and her fag friend Arkin....

Quote:

You keep repeating statements like "I believe not many people died..". I have asked you repeatedly to provide the evidence you base this belief on. You have provided none whatsoever. I repeat, what are you basing your "beliefs" on if not evidence?




My beliefs are based on the vast number of articles, books and even web-pages I have read and my personal opinion, that I can at least substantiate.

Quote:

That 10-15,000 Iraqis died in the first Gulf war.




I have gathered from not only this thread but numerous others that you have difficulty sticking to the point. I re-iterate we are discussing Iraq's military death toll and not the 15,000 figure but the huge inflation of numbers that did and has taken place. This you seem to be ignoring.

Quote:

What are you talking about? How many researchers have ever questioned you about believing everything George Bush says?




None and I doubt one ever will...

Quote:

The irony.. 




It is not ironic in the slightest I have provided evidence you have not. Perhaps you should refer to your dictionary, however I will prvide you with a definition if you need it.

Now lets get back to the subject

Here are three estimates of Iraqi military deaths for the Gulf War

56,000 -- Beth Daponte / William Arkin (Seem familiar)
10,000-20,000 -- Army War College
1,000-6,000 --John Heidenrich / John Mueller

Now I have provided 3 seperate estimates and  an article that details casualty inflation, you have provided the original article that was being discussed and your unfounded belief in the "non-male" known as Beth Daponte.

Lets look into how the above estimates were reached:

Beth Daponte / William Arkin
Daponte/Arkin estimate based on Arkin's computer modeling of Gulf War battles.

Sounds accurate :tongue:

Army War College
"Army War College" is a consensus of scholars at the Army War College, the National Defense University, the International Institute of Strategic Studies in London and a 1996 Air Power survey led by Johns Hopkins University Prof. Eliot Cohen, based chiefly on estimated losses of Iraqi military units in Kuwait.

These clearly aren't reliable at all :rolleyes:

John Heidenrich / John Mueller
Heidenrich/Mueller estimate is based chiefly on extrapolations from number of bodies found, wounded treated, crew strength of vehicles destroyed.

Seems the most reliable considering its context.

I believe Mushmaster mentioned and agenda, what agend you ask?. Lets us read about our good friend Mr William Arkin.

Quote:

WHO IS WILLIAM ARKIN?

For starters, he is the scribbler who launched the assault on Lt. Gen. Jerry Boykin a week ago by providing NBC with tapes of Boykin speaking in churches, and then followed with a Los Angeles Times op-ed that accused the general of being "an intolerant extremist" and a man "who believes in Christian 'jihad'" (Arkin later admitted on my radio program that Boykin never used the term "jihad").

Arkin also wrote that "Boykin has made it clear that he takes his orders not from his Army superiors but from God--which is a worrisome line of command." This statement, like the "jihad" quotation appears to be pure fiction.

But we can't know for sure because Arkin hasn't released the full transcripts of the talks Boykin gave. Arkin promised to do so when I interviewed him, but has since told my producer he won't be providing them because I have misquoted him on my website--another lie from Arkin, to go along with his broken promise of full disclosure.


SO WHO IS ARKIN? That has proven to be a difficult thing to determine, for while Arkin is a prolific writer, his biography is hard to assemble, and maybe intentionally so.

Arkin is a veteran of four years in the Army (he served from 1974 to 1978) and many of his bylines from the past two decades described him as a "military intelligence analyst" during his service (his rank and units are not readily apparent). He received his BS from the University of Maryland.

His employment since leaving the service is easier to trace. Arkin cut his teeth with the lefty Institute for Policy Studies, and went from there to positions with Greenpeace, the Natural Resources Defense Council, and Human Rights Watch. He has been a regular columnist for the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. In recent years he has taken more mainstream work as a senior fellow at the School for Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University (he appears to do most of his writing not from the SAIS campus, but from his home in Vermont).

He is also the regular military affairs columnist for the Los Angeles Times (what a surprise that the Times employs a Greenpeace alum as its military guru) and a commentator for MSNBC.


ARKIN TOLD ME he got his tip on Boykin's faith talks from a Pentagon source, which suggests that the general has an enemy inside the Pentagon. But if, as most of Boykin's critics have argued, the danger presented by the general's private talks about his faith is their effect on the Islamic world, then why did Arkin rush to publicize these private, little-noticed talks that he believes will hurt the U.S. abroad?

The answer is best found in Arkin's own speech to an audience at the U.S. Naval War College on September 25, 2002. In this lengthy and vitriolic attack on the Bush administration, Arkin admitted to feeling "cynical about the fact that we are going to war to enhance the economic interests of the Enron class," and declared that "the war against terrorism is overstated." Arkin believed, in fact, that the war "is not the core United States national security interest today." He rhetorically asked the audience: "Aren't I just another leftist, self-hating American?" and condemned the administration for taking "enormous liberties with American freedoms."

"The war against terrorism," he said, "if it is a war at all, is not World War II or the Cold War, and it is grasping at empty patriotism to claim that it is." He warned of "our tendency to fall back upon secrecy and government control." And he concluded by warning that our foreign policy "convey[s] the wrong message, which is that we have no values, that we are for sale":


Bush and company call the war on terror open ended. Such a characterization reveals a lack of ability to foresee an outcome and betrays a muddled sense of strategy, strategy that is based on American values and our aesthetic and our way of life. It is for that reason that they need help in seeing what they are doing. They hardly have all the answers.
You can read the lengthy speech here. I was tempted to leave out the link in the hopes that Arkin would claim his quotes were taken out of context, but I'm willing to let the audience judge for itself, a courtesy that Arkin is unwilling to do for Boykin. I continue to suspect that there is much in the Boykin transcripts that would undercut Arkin's story line, and thus that he intends to conceal. The Los Angeles Times, so much ridiculed in recent weeks, doesn't appear in a hurry to produce the full transcripts either.


ARKIN SET OUT to damage an administration he unquestionably loathes, and found an exposed target in Boykin. The usual suspects have gathered round to stone the general on the basis of edited reports compiled by an obvious ideologue, and despite the fact that the his talks were expressions of a deeply-felt faith delivered to audiences of fellow believers. There is no evidence that these talks had caused even a ripple of controversy until Arkin launched his well-orchestrated--and quite manipulative--campaign to bring the general down.

If the assault on General Boykin is successful, it is the beginning of the end for expressions of personal faith by public officials.




Who is William Arkin?

The speech the above article refers to in all its glory....

Now if you can manage to stay on topic for even a minute space of time I would enjoy debating this with you, if however you cannot i'd keep that opinionated zealously pc mouth shut. Also I know I said I would save the best till last but I feel I may come under attack for sounding "remarkably sexist"  :lol: if I mention anything that goes aginst, wait for it, a woman....


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2111552 - 11/16/03 03:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The comparison was not needed

You misunderstood the point, I clarified it for you.

Many sources, I have provided two

No, you've provided an associated press report saying "researchers concluded". A source would detail precisely who these researchers are and how they reached their conclusions.

Anyway its not a single woman I apologise its a single woman and her fag friend Arkin....

Sexist and homophobic too. You're quite a card arn't you stoned.

My beliefs are based on the vast number of articles, books and even web-pages I have read and my personal opinion

Care to list any of these books? The best you've come up with so far is an associated press report that doesn't even name the "researchers". Forgive me if I find your claims questionable.

that I can at least substantiate.

If, as you allege, you can substantiate them, you have yet to do so.

I have gathered from not only this thread but numerous others that you have difficulty sticking to the point

You brought up the 10-15,000 figure remember.

but the huge inflation of numbers that did and has taken place

Evidence?

Seems the most reliable considering its context

John Heidenrich the former US military analyst is the most reliable source? Don't be silly. Even the Pentagon disagrees with him. They estimated 100,000 killed in action and 300,000 wounded in action (forced from the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency in May, 1991 by an FOIA inquiry)

Lets us read about our good friend Mr William Arkin

And you accuse me of straying from the topic  :rolleyes: We are talking about Iraqi war casualties. The Pentagon estimated 100,000 dead. Don't blame it all on William Arkin. 

but I feel I may come under attack for sounding "remarkably sexist"

Sounds like I hit a nerve  :smirk:


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Iraq: 22-55000 dead, health crisis for "generations" [Re: Xlea321]
    #2111670 - 11/16/03 03:53 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

No, you've provided an associated press report saying "researchers concluded". A source would detail precisely who these researchers are and how they reached their conclusions




Army War College
"Army War College" is a consensus of scholars at the Army War College, the National Defense University, the International Institute of Strategic Studies in London and a 1996 Air Power survey led by Johns Hopkins University Prof. Eliot Cohen, based chiefly on estimated losses of Iraqi military units in Kuwait.

These clearly aren't reliable at all 

John Heidenrich / John Mueller
Heidenrich/Mueller estimate is based chiefly on extrapolations from number of bodies found, wounded treated, crew strength of vehicles destroyed.

Seems the most reliable considering its context. 


deja vu?

Quote:

Sexist and homophobic too. You're quite a card arn't you stoned.




LOL, you have no idea. My bigotry extends far and wide :rolleyes:

Quote:

Care to list any of these books? The best you've come up with so far is an associated press report that doesn't even name the "researchers". Forgive me if I find your claims questionable.




Do you actually read my posts or anything that isn't spoon fed to you by the guardian

Quote:

If, as you allege, you can substantiate them, you have yet to do so.




I have on more than one occasion....

Quote:

You brought up the 10-15,000 figure remember. 




It was used in the article I posted you keep referring to it not me.

Quote:

Evidence?




History?

Quote:

John Heidenrich the former US military analyst is the most reliable source? Don't be silly. Even the Pentagon disagrees with him. They estimated 100,000 killed in action and 300,000 wounded in action (forced from the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency in May, 1991 by an FOIA inquiry)




Re-read how he came to his estimate and then compare his method to that of the pentagon.

Quote:

And you accuse me of straying from the topic  We are talking about Iraqi war casualties. The Pentagon estimated 100,000 dead.




Im not accusing you, you are straying off topic. I posted an article about Mr Arkin seems the estimate you were adhering to earlier is his. It is relevant I feel. You also seem to keep interchanging "iraqi soldier" and "iraqi" deaths be more clear you keep jumping from one to the other.

Quote:


Sounds like I hit a nerve 




I found it most amusing, hence the fag comment...

Now if you have any intention of debating now would be a good time to start.





--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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