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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy
    #2094160 - 11/11/03 08:34 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

A lot of the arguments that occur in this forum seem to be boil
down to one side who argues that people should keep what they earn,
and the other side that argues that people should give a lot of
what they earn so that a minimum standard of living is achieved
by an entire population.

I tend to fall into the first group. But, I can understand how
people fall into the second group based on concern for their
fellow man. The funny thing is is that instead of seeing concern
for their fellow man as being their motivation, I see a lot of
hatred, suspicion, and contempt of people who are successful.
I get the feeling that a lot of people on this board want to
punish people who happen to have been successful. I can sense the
bitterness and anger in their posts when they speak of people who
have ammassed wealth. Has anybody else noticed this "class
warfare" attitude?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2094182 - 11/11/03 08:40 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I have nothing against the rich(except that they generally tend to vote Republican). My parents happen to be rather well-off themselves. I just think that the poor shouldn't be expected to pay as much taxes as the rich since they have less money to live off of. I also happen to believe that there should be a financial safety net for those who are unable to work or to find work. Obviously there are those who genuinely hate the rich, and I am firmly against this attitude.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2094292 - 11/11/03 09:02 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I've known a lot of independantly wealthy people in my life and never had any problem,s with them. People who built their businesses from dreams and hard work and ingenuity. Those are some really good people.

I've also known a lot of worthless heirs to vast fortunes who have entire teams working for them for the purpose of mainting their wealth through banking and investment. I've known a lot of corporate schills who got paid high salaries to forgoe human decency and abdicate responsibility in the course of their jobs. And i've had to deal with a lot of evil corporations that act as souless machines. I'm not a big fan of organizations in general, and I think that corportions can be just as dangerous as the government.

I believe that the people in the first category should keep what they earn, but people in the second category should be crippled lest their ignorance and corruption do too much damage to society. I'm a lot less worried about poor people and welfare than I am about the power of corporations and their ability to fuck with my rights.

I don't hate wealth if it is earned, deserved, and constructive. But i dont appreciate the existence of wealth in the absence of intelligence and basic ethics, a condition which i find rampant in America.

EDIT:

I guess thats the difference between me and most hardcore capitalists: I dont make much of a distinction between public and private organizations. To me, they are all fucking evil.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


Edited by DoctorJ (11/11/03 09:06 PM)


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2094405 - 11/11/03 09:32 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Your post sums up most of my feelings on the subject.

The thing that is so annoying to me personally, is all these ultra millionaires and companies with all this extra money sitting around doing nothing, that are so reluctant to part with any of it. (Been looking for funding to start up a company and its very frustrating). They all want to see immediate gauranteed profits, refuse to take any risks, etc.  There is so much that could be done, so many people could be employed, with all that unused capital.  Instead they spend it on a third yacht or something lame like that.  You know the type. People who never make a noise when they fart.  :rolleyes: 


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: pattern]
    #2094481 - 11/11/03 09:56 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

yes, there is a serious lack of genuine entreprenuers, ingenuity, and venture capitalism these days. everyone wants a sure thing.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2094667 - 11/11/03 10:43 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I've known a lot of independantly wealthy people in my life and never had any problem,s with them. People who built their businesses from dreams and hard work and ingenuity. Those are some really good people.




I totally agree. Alot of these people get teh shaft on their huge amounts of taxes they have to pay, and still, through the kindness of their heart, help "lower class" people out. Donating blood, food, gifts, etc.

Quote:


I've also known a lot of worthless heirs to vast fortunes who have entire teams working for them for the purpose of mainting their wealth through banking and investment.




Yes, they are the children of the first group. The American Dream is that your children do "better" than you did. Whats wrong with leaving them your money? I'm sure that some people would want that money to be taken from them, and given to some social program. Why penalize
that person who was a hard worker by penalizing their children?

Quote:


I've known a lot of corporate schills who got paid high salaries to forgoe human decency and abdicate responsibility in the course of their jobs. And i've had to deal with a lot of evil corporations that act as souless machines. I'm not a big fan of organizations in general, and I think that corportions can be just as dangerous as the government.




I think that comapnies like this do exist, and I think that alot of"good" companies exist as well. Disliking "corporations" is what this post is all about. A man gets his education, goes to work on the board of a company, and all of the sudden something is wrong with that?

Quote:

I believe that the people in the first category should keep what they earn, but people in the second category should be crippled lest their ignorance and corruption do too much damage to society. I'm a lot less worried about poor people and welfare than I am about the power of corporations and their ability to fuck with my rights.




The people in the first ategory ARE being penalized, by not having the knowledge that, in their passing, their heirs will be taken care of and maybe live a life better than what they had to live. Why penalize people because their parents did such a good job? I think that in our mad rush for this false sense of "equality", we've decided to knock people down to a "mid point" level, rather than build people up.

Quote:


I don't hate wealth if it is earned, deserved, and constructive. But i dont appreciate the existence of wealth in the absence of intelligence and basic ethics, a condition which i find rampant in America.




Maybe we could have you sit down and interview every rich person, and use your standards to determine if they are using their money the right way. That sounds fair and democratic to me. If I want to use the millions I made from inventing something to build a GIGANTIc mansion and have it surrounded with tanks, thats my business. It's interesting how many people dislike big brother nosing aound in personal matters, until it's the rich that are going to be screwed by it.



--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2094831 - 11/11/03 11:26 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I don't have anything against successful people.

I do, however, have something against people who become successful at the expense of others.

Unfortunately, I see this all to often in todays world.


Yes, the class war does exist. It always has. It always will, or at least as long as there are classes. I think it's inevitable for the "less-fortunate" to feel wronged in some way by the "exceedingly-fortunate"


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2094914 - 11/11/03 11:44 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

This is a good subject for a post...

I think I'm the sort of person who may appear to show contempt for the rich....

I believe that social classes are appropriate, natural and good...it's just that the concept of "earning" is out of whack...I percieve a lot of the wealth creating mechanisms out there as being immoral...like moving money around every 45 minutes on international currency markets...

Ths sort of activity, in most cases, has nothing to do with faciliting international trade, but is more like a casino game, with the odds in favour of those on the inside of this 'club'

A man, named George Soros made 1 billion in 1 day doing this...I can't see how anyone can claim that this man 'earned' this money...

Also, most industry is controled by private interests and they run their factories in the name of profits for themselves, not as a natural part of the social order...(jobs)

For example, because of free trade, it is now common for private companies to relocate jobs into low wage zones...even if the company is enormously successful. It's not hard to imagine where these trends will lead if left unchecked...we can't hope to arrive at a good society when all that the people in contol do is everything in their power to hoard their power.

It's those sorts of things that make me cynical about the whole notion of the members of the ruling class having "earned" their 100's of millions or billions, and should be able to keep it for themselves when so many in the world don't even have clean water...

The wheels of the economy should steer towards the common good, not just the good of a small club who in the end, only enjoy their position because of the labour of others.

The people need to have a say as to what we, as a society invest in. Not these modern monarchs, who claim a modern form of the divine right to control the world.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisiblethescientist
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2094962 - 11/11/03 11:54 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

No ones deserves to be rich
noone
everything comes from somewhere. when its gone, so are we


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OnlineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2095035 - 11/12/03 12:09 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You can make something from nothing. Wealth can be created. Someone does not always have to lose for someone else to gain.


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Invisiblethescientist
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2096215 - 11/12/03 07:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

baby hitler

wealth cannot be created. period. a niche in a market can be exploited. man-made capital is not created. wealth is fundamentally derived from the consumption of resourses-mostly energy. money comes from energy which is FINITE. OIL reserves are finite. in a dynamic system wealth (money) can move between sources. but it comes from the consumption of resourses.

does anybody hear me? wealth is finite b/c its source is finite. when the pipelines sound like the bottom of a mcflurry you will feel me. then we will see what happens to the economy

please hitler explain to me this magical infinite source of energy (wealth).
i would love to exploit it


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2096440 - 11/12/03 08:56 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Your point that wealth is essentially a crystallized form of energy (at least that's how I understood it) is an excellent one. It cuts like lightning through the pollyanna mental fog that thinks wealth is infinitely expandable and doesn't understand the law of entropy.

I think it should be pointed out, however, that some sources of energy are renewable, if not necessarily infinite. Our sun will eventually die out, but for the time being we may count on it as a reliable source of energy--as we can with wind, hydroelectric, and nuclear energy. Humanity's challenge at this point is to figure out how to harness those renewable sources of energy in a way which is economical (in the case of the first two--solar and wind), not destructive to the natural environment (in the case of hydroelectric), and not potentially catastrophic in case of breakdown (in the case of nuclear).

Other resources, such as land, fresh water, and others, are indeed finite. If we do not steward them carefully we're fucked, but since capitalism always chooses short and medium term profit over long-term stewardship it looks like we are, indeed, fucked.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2096650 - 11/12/03 10:10 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You can make something from nothing. Wealth can be created. Someone does not always have to lose for someone else to gain.





Agreed. I have no problem with people who create wealth. My main problem is when people take wealth from others. Where I differ from most hardcore capitalists is in the admission that individuals and private organizations can be just as guilty of taking wealth as socialistic and communistic governments.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2096766 - 11/12/03 10:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)


wealth cannot be created. period.


Yes it can. I believe I have stated this in another thread but I will
restate it here. Of all of the things that make up wealth, some
are finite(land, minerals), some are finite but renewable(trees,
crops), and some are infinite in scope(human labor and ideas).

Wealth is created all of the time. It is not mandatory that
for someone to gain they must take from someone else.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2097197 - 11/12/03 12:50 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

for someone to gain they must take from someone else.

I don't think anyone minds the wealth randall, I think it's the extreme greed that offends. Paying 10 year olds piss-all and brutalising them in nightmarish factories while you buy yourself your tenth mansion. If one of these Nike boss's would open up a school and give the kids a day of education a week, or give their workers decent working conditions etc I'd be happy for them to make as much money as they could.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2097237 - 11/12/03 12:58 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry for the quick reply, Alex, this isn't for you. If wealth can't be "created", mearly reassigned, my research should show that their is the same "Amount" of money/value in the market today as their was in 1800, adjusted for inflation? I don't think this will hold true.


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2097890 - 11/12/03 03:50 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)


I don't think anyone minds the wealth randall, I think it's the
extreme greed that offends. Paying 10 year olds piss-all and
brutalising them in nightmarish factories while you buy yourself your
tenth mansion


It is true that these corporations employ a lot of people in far-off
lands where the environmental and labor laws are lax. First of all,
I think it is immoral for any company to do business in a country
where people aren't allowed to vote for their leaders. In these
circumstances, workers can definately be abused without much
ability to change things.

Another way to look at things...These workers in the "nightmarish"
factories usually only have several choices; farm while living
in a shack like your ancestors have done for thousands of years, or
work in a factory where you make a shitload more money than you could
make anywhere else in that country. That is why those people
work in those factories. Those jobs might not be very enticing
to you or I, but they are to these people because that is all there
is.

Are these companies taking advantage of cheap labor? Yes. Why do
they do that? Because us consumers in advanced countries want
things to be as cheap as possible.

Close down those factories and I'll bet that a lot of those workers
will be enraged that their source of income disappears.

Cheap foreign labor is a serious issue that has many facets. I
think that the U.S. should boycott goods from all non-democratic
countries personally.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2099074 - 11/12/03 09:12 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

RandalFlagg writes:

Another way to look at things...These workers in the "nightmarish"
factories usually only have several choices; farm while living
in a shack like your ancestors have done for thousands of years, or
work in a factory where you make a shitload more money than you could
make anywhere else in that country. That is why those people
work in those factories. Those jobs might not be very enticing
to you or I, but they are to these people because that is all there
is.


So many people posting here overlook this simple fact. I live in a third world country and I see this first hand. Before there was much foreign investment here, there weren't a lot of opportunities. Now there are. But that's all they are -- opportunities, or options, or choices. No one is forced to work in a clothing plant or in a hotel or in a cell phone boutique. People are left free to continue working as they always had before the advent of these options. Many do.

Close down those factories and I'll bet that a lot of those workers
will be enraged that their source of income disappears.


I've seen this first hand as well. It happened a couple of years back when the government raised the minimum wage and repealed some of the laws giving breaks to the companies operating in the Free Zones. A lot of factories (most Taiwanese, but some from Singapore as well if I recall correctly) shut down. It was pretty difficult for a lot of people.

On the other hand, a new factory opening is cause for celebration. I find it interesting how so many people here refer to the process of providing jobs for people in undeveloped countries as "exploitation". I can guarantee you the workers here lucky enough to snag one of those jobs don't feel exploited -- they are ecstatic.

pinky



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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2099301 - 11/12/03 10:06 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

thescientist said:
wealth cannot be created. period. a niche in a market can be exploited. man-made capital is not created. wealth is fundamentally derived from the consumption of resourses-mostly energy. money comes from energy which is FINITE. ... blah blah blah blah



When I create a computer program that others are willing to pay for, I am creating wealth. The same amount of energy is used regardless of whether I am downloading porn from the internet or writing a useful program that will increase the efficiency of my client(s). Why does one activity create something that is more valuable than the energy being consumed, while the other does not?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2099756 - 11/13/03 12:18 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

work in a factory where you make a shitload more money than you could

Nah, many of the western factories don't even pay minimum wage - that's why they often employ 12 year old girls and young women - easier to intimidate and brutalise.

I don't think the fact that you can find someone desperate enough to do something makes it right.You could go out and find an 8 year old girl you could pay to have sex. That doesn't mean having sex with 8 year old girls is right.

Now if these scumbags want to do this the least they should expect is the disrespect of all thinking, sane individuals. Surely that's the least we can do?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblethescientist
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2101772 - 11/13/03 12:53 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

when you create a computer program you are ACQUIRING wealth not creating it. the money you obtain already existed. It is impossible for an activity to produce more energy than it consumes.

Think about the law of conservation.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2101919 - 11/13/03 01:37 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

thescientist writes:

when you create a computer program you are ACQUIRING wealth not creating it.

You do not understand the concept of wealth.

the money you obtain already existed.

Money is not wealth. Money is a medium of exchange.

It is impossible for an activity to produce more energy than it consumes.

Energy is not wealth. Energy is used to create wealth.

Think about the law of conservation.

If you are referring to the law of conservation of energy, it is completely irrelevant to the concept of wealth.

pinky


--------------------


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Invisiblethescientist
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Phred]
    #2102642 - 11/13/03 05:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Pronunciation: 'welth also 'weltth
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English welthe, from wele weal
Date: 13th century
1 obsolete : WEAL, WELFARE
2 : abundance of valuable material possessions or resources
3 : abundant supply : PROFUSION
4 a : all property that has a money value or an exchangeable value b : all material objects that have economic utility; especially : the stock of useful goods having economic value in existence at any one time <national wealth>



anyone want to explain how they can the change or create "abundance of resources"

you'll have to argue this one w/ webster. i believe i already presented the facts

conservation would apply to "abundance of of resourses"

im done here. great topics in this forum guys


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2105598 - 11/14/03 09:42 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I think alot of it stems from the business paradigm pushed on us by Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman from the University of Chicago:

Quote:

The only social responsibility a company has is to its shareholders




What this means is that business is now totally absolved from its social responsibility to produce new wealth. Rather, younger (for the most part) and criminally-minded directorates now focus their efforts on looting out the population to consolidate existing wealth. In the past, one could have argued that the rich were rich by virtue of them having created value; but this is obviously no longer the case (if it ever was; hence the name "robber baron"). As such, there is a very legitimate complaint against the looters.

Nixon halted the redemption of US dollars in gold specifically to force the US into this paradigm. The downward pressure on wages that the paradigm necessarily entails bolsters the value of the dollar against the Euro.



--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2105895 - 11/14/03 10:54 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The only social responsibility a company has is to its shareholders

What this means is that business is now totally absolved from its social responsibility to produce new wealth.

the only way for a company to peacefully profit is to create new wealth. it cannot gain anything without offering something in exchange. as long as it is exchanging things for what they are worth (transactions are voluntary), it cannot increase its own wealth without creating and offering to the rest of the community something else of equal wealth.

Rather, younger (for the most part) and criminally-minded directorates now focus their efforts on looting out the population to consolidate existing wealth.

impossible without coercion.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2106065 - 11/14/03 11:36 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The only social responsibility a company has is to its shareholders

What this means is that business is now totally absolved from its social responsibility to produce new wealth.

the only way for a company to peacefully profit is to create new wealth. it cannot gain anything without offering something in exchange. as long as it is exchanging things for what they are worth (transactions are voluntary), if cannot increase its own wealth without creating and offering to the rest of the community that same amount of wealth.




The key word is peacefully. These corporations and the ppl that run them gave us 9/11, Afghanistan, and Iraq, just to name a few. In my book they are not men of peace.

Quote:

Rather, younger (for the most part) and criminally-minded directorates now focus their efforts on looting out the population to consolidate existing wealth.

impossible without coercion.




such as the USA-PATRIOT act.


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2106099 - 11/14/03 11:42 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

you're not making any sense. i don't think you understand the principles i'm talking about.

a corporation, in order to turn a profit, must create wealth.

now... al-qaeda is not a corporation and neither is congress, but let's assume for a moment that what you said is true and 9-11 and the patriot act were brought to us by evil corporations seeking profit...

how did these actions enable them to sell their goods to people for more than people would voluntarily exchange for them?


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2106158 - 11/14/03 11:59 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The corporate interests in Iraq and Afghanistan are common knowledge. Granted, it hasnt all panned out; but that was the intention nonetheless. And neither would have been possible without 9/11, which im firmly convinced was a Reichstag Fire.

As for the PATRIOT act, you answered that question yourself: the acquisition of wealth without new production (ie looting, aka "structural adjustment") is not possible without coercion.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2106720 - 11/14/03 02:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


These corporations and the ppl that run them gave us 9/11


The people who gave us "9/11" were Islamic extremists, not
corporations.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2106904 - 11/14/03 03:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Who gave them the means to take flight school, fly to the US, live in the US, plan, etc?


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2107155 - 11/14/03 05:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Liberals who resist toughening immigrant laws, or enforcing the one we have now.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2107218 - 11/14/03 05:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Bullshit. They cant even get the current batch of laws straight. These are not hard concepts. When they can do what the laws say they should be doing effectively and efficiently and it doesnt work, we will think about adopting some new laws.

The system is inherantly fucked, multiple people dropped the ball on this intelligence.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2107259 - 11/14/03 05:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

How do you figure corporations helped the 9-11 hijackers exactly?


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2107299 - 11/14/03 05:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The corporate interests in Iraq and Afghanistan are common knowledge. Granted, it hasnt all panned out; but that was the intention nonetheless. And neither would have been possible without 9/11, which im firmly convinced was a Reichstag Fire.

the vast majority of the "corporate interests" you speak of represent the rights to create new wealth in specific industries. the companies are still creating wealth.

you didn't answer my question either. if companies are to profit without either stealing or selling things for more than they're worth (both entail coercion), they must create new wealth equal to any profit they are to make.

for the most part, the advantage that some corporations may come away with from some kind of warfare is not that they are in a position to steal wealth, but they are in a very good position to create new wealth.

perhaps warfare does allow some corporations the oppurtunity to forcefully take some wealth that they did not make for themselves. this an extremely limited aspect of the market overall, and certainly not enough to support the claim that, "business is now totally absolved from its social responsibility to produce new wealth."

in order to generate revenues, firms must generate new wealth. the only exception to this rule, and it's a rather small exception, is when they've stolen something or are selling something for more than it's worth (both of which involve specific coercive action... and note that it is almost always with the help of government).


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2107324 - 11/14/03 05:59 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

These corporations and the ppl that run them gave us 9/11


The people who gave us "9/11" were Islamic extremists, not
corporations.




Bullshit.

Just ask yourself the question: "who has had the most to gain from 9/11?" if you guys are really that lame i'll give you a couple of clues: its not bin Laden and its not Saddam Hussein either. Now ask yourself the question: "what interests do they represent?" another clue: one of them was CEO of Haliburton, which has reaped (or at least intends to reap) windfalls from the invasion of Iraq.

I dont necessarily dispute the role of Islamic extremism; the hijackers might have really believed that they were doing the work of god. But the sad fact is that they were doing the work of the junta (no difference in their minds).


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2107338 - 11/14/03 06:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

other than the fact that 9-11 allowed our current administration to seize more power and caused its approval ratings to skyrocket, do you have any evidence for your claims there?

there is much more to establishing guilt than establishing a motive.

and why are we talking about 9-11 now? if you'll read the last post i made, maybe you'll see that this talk of iraq, afghanistan, and 9-11 is rather irrelevant to what we had been discussing anyway.

but just for the hell of it... who exactly orchestrated 9-11, and why?


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2107378 - 11/14/03 06:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"A man gets his education, goes to work on the board of a company, and all of the sudden something is wrong with that?"

Well, usually, yes.
Because he endevours to rape those that actually are DOING work for the company out of their money. He endevours to rape those who invest money in their company of it.
In short, steal steal steal and run. Most high exec's care only for their own pocket and will destroy anything and anyone to pad their own wallet.

And that good sir is evil.

"Why do
they do that? Because us consumers in advanced countries want
things to be as cheap as possible."

That's a bit of a corporate cop-out.
Sure, it's so the price can stay low.. but the price could certainly be lower if they weren't paying their CEO $100 million a year salary, with another $100 million in bonuses, and another $250 million in stock options.
That'll jack up your product price quite a bit.

"On the other hand, a new factory opening is cause for celebration. I find it interesting how so many people here refer to the process of providing jobs for people in undeveloped countries as "exploitation". I can guarantee you the workers here lucky enough to snag one of those jobs don't feel exploited -- they are ecstatic. "

Also a point I've made before, that a lot of people can't seem to get a handle on.. from here in the US, it's pure exploitation.. but a lot of times maybe it's helping out those countries more than not being there. US minimum wage in some countries would make you rich ;p


People who work hard to EARN their money, I admire.
But often, the richest have NOT EARNED their money, but rather more have stolen it from those who are working, by means of their superior positioning on a corporate ladder.
"Gee, I can raise YOUR salary.. and you can raise MINE.. well, I think you've been doing a fine job. TRIPLE THE PAY! O, you think that was a brilliant move on my part? why thank you. I accept a tripling of my pay, as well. Hur hur hur!"

Looting the company coffers for your own selfish, greedy benefit at the expense of the true workers.
that's evil.


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2107416 - 11/14/03 06:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Because he endevours to rape those that actually are DOING work for the company out of their money. He endevours to rape those who invest money in their company of it.

unless he is an embezzler, this statement is false.

Most high exec's care only for their own pocket and will destroy anything and anyone to pad their own wallet.

execs are paid to run a company. if they suck at it, they get fired, and that doesn't help them make any money. they do a job, just like anyone else. i don't think you understand how the management of a corporation operates or how they are selected.

Sure, it's so the price can stay low.. but the price could certainly be lower if they weren't paying their CEO $100 million a year salary, with another $100 million in bonuses, and another $250 million in stock options.

if the CEO is sucking more from a company than the shareholders and directers think he is worth, he will not keep his position. goods are sold at the market value. the amount a CEO is making has nothing to do with it. the pay that goes to the management is money that would otherwise be kept as profit and reinvested. cutting the pay rate of the management (if it were possible) would not result in a cut in the price of the product.

Also a point I've made before, that a lot of people can't seem to get a handle on.. from here in the US, it's pure exploitation.. but a lot of times maybe it's helping out those countries more than not being there. US minimum wage in some countries would make you rich ;p

i take it you don't read very well...

But often, the richest have NOT EARNED their money, but rather more have stolen it from those who are working, by means of their superior positioning on a corporate ladder.

yes, i suppose that it would be advantageous to go down the the factory floor and select a random laborer to run the company, seeing that it's such a simple task unworthy of the compensation delivered...

Looting the company coffers for your own selfish, greedy benefit at the expense of the true workers.

you don't have a clue how corporations, or the market, operates. good day.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2107461 - 11/14/03 06:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

you didn't answer my question either. if companies are to profit without either stealing or selling things for more than they're worth (both entail coercion), they must create new wealth equal to any profit they are to make.




The whole point im trying to make is that they are stealing: the new business model is simply to acquire wealth without (necessarily) producing it. But when they steal its called structural adjustment or some similarly cynical name. (The link deals mostly with third-world countries, but it happens here to; ie. "rightsizing", "rightshoring", "deregulation", etc).

Quote:

for the most part, the advantage that some corporations may come away with from some kind of warfare is not that they are in a position to steal wealth, but they are in a very good position to create new wealth.




Then why is big oil trying to steal all of Iraq via the junta??


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2107475 - 11/14/03 06:59 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

the new business model is simply to acquire wealth without (necessarily) producing it.

i'm afraid not. that may be the practice of a very few firms, but in the market at large, in order to generate revenue, you must create wealth.

corporations also cannot steal without some kind of governmental interference, or lack of appropriate policing, in the market. as limited as the situation you're referring to is, if the government would stick to doing it's job, it wouldn't exist at all.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2107520 - 11/14/03 07:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

i'm afraid not. that may be the practice of a very few firms, but in the market at large, in order to generate revenue, you must create wealth.




Who says any revenue is actually being generated as opposed to merely acquired?? I should also remind you that only a "very few firms" control the bulk of the "the market" in this country.

Quote:

corporations also cannot steal without some kind of governmental interference, or lack of appropriate policing, in the market. as limited as the situation you're referring to is, if the government would stick to doing it's job, it wouldn't exist at all.




Correct. And thats exactly the situation that exists under the junta, whose corporate liasons are well known and documented. Even before the junta, one could argue that our government functioned similarly to that of Iran or the USSR, that being as a hit squad for a tiny circle of financial elites known as the "central comittee" in the USSR and the "Guardian Council" in Iran. In the US its a consortium of military, prison, oil, and media oligopolists which has not been codified into the government as in the other cases.

edit: I forgot to include the pharmaceutical companies in the US ruling council (or whatever you want to call it).


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (11/14/03 08:29 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2107584 - 11/14/03 07:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Who says any revenue is actually being generated as opposed to merely acquired??

corporations acquire wealth by exchanging the goods or services they create with the public. now... the economic value of something is determined by the things for which it can be voluntarily exchanged. therefore, the revenue they bring in is equal to the goods and services they create.

you can go on and on about how corporations are in bed with the government, and indeed they may be, but the fact is that most of the market is non-coercive. the few cases where there is actual coercion taking place in the market are only because the government has either overstepped its bounds or shirked in its duties.

i understand what you're trying to say but its relevence is rather limited in this discussion.


Edited by mushmaster (11/14/03 07:57 PM)


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2107763 - 11/14/03 09:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"execs are paid to run a company. if they suck at it, they get fired, and that doesn't help them make any money. they do a job, just like anyone else. i don't think you understand how the management of a corporation operates or how they are selected."

Look at Enron. It's just the biggest and most public case of the high-level exec's totally raping a company into the ground to line their own pockets. It happens ALL THE TIME, just generally on not quite so large of a scale.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2107850 - 11/14/03 09:49 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Who gave them the means to take flight school, fly to the US, live in
the US, plan, etc?


Annapurna1 was insinuating that corporations were to blame for 9/11.
I merely said the truth; that Islamic extremists were the ones
who did it. "Corporations" seem to be the scapegoated boogeymen
for all liberals to scream about, even when these entities had
nothing to do with the tragedy in question.

Who gave them the means to take flight lessons? The terrorist
financers who were funding these terrorists. Neither the American
government nor corporations had anything to do with it.

Who allowed them into the U.S. to live here, and to plan?
U.S. immigration did. The only way to keep all people who want to do
bad things out is to close the borders to everyone. We would
also have to conduct surveillance on every Muslim or Arab male
in this country. If that happened liberals would scream about how
racist America was.



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2107870 - 11/14/03 09:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Another quirk of liberals that I have noticed: They are incapable of
giving any type of positive comment in regards to America, and they
are incapable of giving any type of negative comment in regards to
it's enemies.

So, when Islamic terrorists kill 3,000 people, they scream, "
American intelligence failed!!". Yet they don't say a word
about the disgusting actions of 19 men who decided to murder
thousands of innocents. I am very critical of this country
and it's foreign policy, but I don't fall prey to cliche
attitudes that guide what I think. These "It's always America's
fault" comments are knee-jerk ideological garbage.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2107894 - 11/14/03 10:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Bullshit.



Show me PROOF.

Show me proof that corporations were involved in the planning,
execution, and coverup of the September 11 attacks. I am open to any
idea as long as it is backed up by indisputable evidence.

Please give me proof and not hackneyed left-wing conspiracy
theory garbage.




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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2107917 - 11/14/03 10:09 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


A man gets his education, goes to work on the board of a company, and
all of the sudden something is wrong with that?"


Well, usually, yes.

Because he endevours to rape those that actually are DOING work for
the company out of their money. He endevours to rape those who invest
money in their company of it.

In short, steal steal steal and run. Most high exec's care only for
their own pocket and will destroy anything and anyone to pad their
own wallet.


You are using a few examples of corrupt CEO's to justify an opinion
that all CEO's are evil. That is stupidity. Unless you know each
and every CEO in this country and how he operates his business,
you have no right to make idiotic assumptions like this.


"Why do they do that? Because us consumers in advanced countries want
things to be as cheap as possible."


That's a bit of a corporate cop-out.
Sure, it's so the price can stay low.. but the price could certainly
be lower if they weren't paying their CEO $100 million a year salary,
with another $100 million in bonuses, and another $250 million in
stock options.


The reason they are paid so much is because their jobs are hard.
Running a cash register doesn't require much skill or effort and
that is why it isn't compensated well. Running a company in
a competitive market IS difficult and requires massive amounts
of effort and skill. That is why they are paid well. And if a
board of directors is stupid enough to give somebody millions of
dollars who then proceeds to run the company into the ground, then
that is their own damn fault.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2108108 - 11/14/03 11:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

Bullshit.



Show me PROOF.

Show me proof that corporations were involved in the planning,
execution, and coverup of the September 11 attacks. I am open to any
idea as long as it is backed up by indisputable evidence.

Please give me proof and not hackneyed left-wing conspiracy
theory garbage.




Here's the PROOF, right out of the horse's mouth:

Quote:

Rebuilding America's Defenses, p63:

Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event ? like a
new Pearl Harbor.




(The above was written exactly one year before 9/11)
What is meant by "revolutionary change" is explained in the Statement of Principles (!!signatories!!). Also worth considering:

* The junta's blatant interference with the 9/11 investigation
* The hijacker's passports were displayed on TV in pristine condition within an hour after the north tower fell.

Unfortunately, nobody will ever find a smoking gun; but that doesnt mean that the gun was never there...As far as corporate involvement, one need look no further than Dick Cheney.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2108162 - 11/15/03 12:06 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"You are using a few examples of corrupt CEO's to justify an opinion
that all CEO's are evil. That is stupidity. Unless you know each
and every CEO in this country and how he operates his business,
you have no right to make idiotic assumptions like this."

There's many examples of corruption you can dig up, there's just recently been a few really big ones on the news.
About 5 years ago, the same thing happened to the company my dad worked for.
Last year, the company I was working for, the same thing was in the process of happening. Oh and also, that particular company hid roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of all their inventory from the gov't, by shifting it around to avoid inventory counts. That's tax evasion bucko. But yes, they're in the process of running things into the ground for their own personal benefit.
It's happening all around you man. It always has been.

I'm not saying any schmoe could be a CEO.. I'm just saying they're corrupt thieves.
I mean, seriously dude. We all know government is corrupt. On the national level, I'm sure we'd agree that ALL elected officials are at least SOMEWHAT evil. There's a certain amount of lying, back-scratching and whatnot that you've GOT to do to get to that level of power. Corporate America's no different, except there's less lying (because you don't need to secure votes from the general public) and more back-scratching (because you do need more approval from those in power).
Seriously man, don't delude yourself for one minute that anyone can make it to that level of power by being an honest, fair, kind-hearted, unselfish, generous person. It's not compatable with qualities that are looked for in a CEO.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2108307 - 11/15/03 01:41 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

the advantage that some corporations may come away with from some kind of warfare is not that they are in a position to steal wealth

Come on mush, look at Iraq. They're breaking every international law in the book by privatising everything they can get their hands on. It's robbery - pure and simple.

execs are paid to run a company. if they suck at it, they get fired, and that doesn't help them make any money

You want to see the size of the golden handshakes these directors get for running companies into the ground. Recession and downturns in company profits has had zero effect on the enormous wage rises and pay-offs these people award themselves - on the contrary, as performance has dropped, directors payoffs have kept increasing. Sucking at your job these days really doesn't matter for these people.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2108407 - 11/15/03 02:49 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Mushmonkey said:
I'm not saying any schmoe could be a CEO.. I'm just saying they're corrupt thieves.



If you mean all of them, you are very ignorant.

Quote:

Seriously man, don't delude yourself for one minute that anyone can make it to that level of power by being an honest, fair, kind-hearted, unselfish, generous person. It's not compatable with qualities that are looked for in a CEO.



Seriously, don't delude yourself into thinking you have all the answers. That you know the hearts and actions of people you've NEVER met, NEVER worked for and know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT. You are lacking in knowledge and experience to make such a broad and unfounded generalization. Tell us, how many CEOs have you hired? How do you know what qualities are looked for? You have been on the board of directors of how many companies?


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2108549 - 11/15/03 04:16 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

So although he might be wrong, he could well be right...


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2108665 - 11/15/03 07:45 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The reason they are paid so much is because their jobs are hard.

As hard as those 13 year old girls slaving in their factories in south east asia? How many CEO's do you think could work as hard as the average 13 year old girl in one of those places? Do you think Bill Gates would keep up? Seriously? My guess is the first time one of the guards slapped him in the face for slacking and broke his glasses he'd bust into tears and suffer complete mental, physical and emotional collapse within 1-3 weeks.

a competitive market IS difficult and requires massive amounts of effort and skill

As hard as anyone else in the company works? Do managers have as much skill as the average technical guy for example? Do they really put in anymore effort than anyone else in the company? Enough effort to justify paying themselves hundreds of times more than anyone else? Not to mention the free cars, free perks, long lunches, entertaining business friends on expensive days out all courtesy of the company?


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2108675 - 11/15/03 07:58 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The reason they are paid so much is because their jobs are hard.
Running a cash register doesn't require much skill or effort and
that is why it isn't compensated well. Running a company in
a competitive market IS difficult and requires massive amounts
of effort and skill. That is why they are paid well. And if a
board of directors is stupid enough to give somebody millions of
dollars who then proceeds to run the company into the ground, then
that is their own damn fault.




Running a cash register requires alot more skill and effort than rubber stamping a few papers and playing golf all day...which is all those pricks do, along with mass-firing a productive workforce to loot their incomes...


--------------------


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2108802 - 11/15/03 10:21 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)


The reason they are paid so much is because their jobs are hard.


As hard as those 13 year old girls slaving in their factories in south east asia?


Let me rephrase the word "hard". When I said the job of managing
a large company was hard, it obviously is not physically taxing.
What someone's labor is worth is determined by how difficult the
job is to do. Anybody is capable of sitting in a factory and sewing
a button on a shirt. Not everybody has the brains to run a
company in a competitive environment. These people are paid
well for doing something that most people are not capable of doing.


How many CEO's do you think could work as hard as the average 13 year
old girl in one of those places? Do you think Bill Gates would keep
up? Seriously? My guess is the first time one of the guards slapped
him in the face for slacking and broke his glasses he'd bust into
tears and suffer complete mental, physical and emotional collapse
within 1-3 weeks.


Alex, you continually harp upon the conditions of these foreign
factories to me. Yet, I have repeatedly said that I don't think
American companies should be doing business in countries that don't
allow free elections. If these people are allowed to elect
leaders who can enact legislation, then they can affect their
working conditions.


a competitive market IS difficult and requires massive amounts of
effort and skill


As hard as anyone else in the company works? Do managers have as much
skill as the average technical guy for example? Do they really put in
anymore effort than anyone else in the company?


They might not put forth more effort, but they put forth more
skill in a much more demanding job.

By the way, I was related to a CEO of a company. An eighty hour work
week was a "light" week for him.


Enough effort to justify paying themselves hundreds of times more
than anyone else?


They themselves don't determine what they are paid. The board of
directors does. The board of directors is elected by the
shareholders. The shareholders are the citizens who hold stock in
the company.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2108821 - 11/15/03 10:31 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Running a cash register requires alot more skill and effort than
rubber stamping a few papers and playing golf all day...which is all
those pricks do, along with mass-firing a productive workforce to
loot their incomes...


You call them pricks. Have you ever met a CEO? Have you met the
majority of them? How can you claim to know that they are assholes
or not? You are basing your view of them on a few highly publicized
cases and warping it to fit your pejudices.

Your bias is unbelievable. It clouds your view of reality.

To show the hypocrisy that taints your thinking, think on this
for a second: Think of the total percentage of CEO's who have been
indicted for wrong-doing and corruption. And then think of
the total percentage of black males who have been indicted for
committing crimes. I think you will find that the percentage
of black males who commit crimes is much higher than the percentage
of CEO's who commit crimes. You demonize the entire upper
management population of America, but of course you would never
demonize the entire black race, because that wouldn't be politically
correct.

I mentioned this in another message: I used to be related to a CEO
who easily worked 80-100 hours a week. He didn't play golf and
goof off. He worked hard, he was good at what he did, and he did
something that many people are not capable of doing.



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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2108843 - 11/15/03 10:45 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I think it should be perfectly clear from the other posts here which "pricks" im talking about. Your forgetting that only a tiny minority of CEOs are in "the entire upper management population of America"; and those are the ones that are looting out the masses, starting wars, etc. that really are pricks.


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2108856 - 11/15/03 11:01 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The reason they are paid so much is because their jobs are hard.

As hard as those 13 year old girls slaving in their factories in south east asia? How many CEO's do you think could work as hard as the average 13 year old girl in one of those places? Do you think Bill Gates would keep up? Seriously? My guess is the first time one of the guards slapped him in the face for slacking and broke his glasses he'd bust into tears and suffer complete mental, physical and emotional collapse within 1-3 weeks.

the reason they are paid so much is not because their job is difficult, but because the work they do is more valuable, and while just about anyone can sew a soccerball together, there are very few who are qualified to run a large corporation.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2108863 - 11/15/03 11:06 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seriously man, don't delude yourself for one minute that anyone can make it to that level of power by being an honest, fair, kind-hearted, unselfish, generous person. It's not compatable with qualities that are looked for in a CEO




I don't think anyone can make it in this society, period, by being honest, fair, kind-hearted, and unselfish.

It goes for the lower levels of employment, too. Go to any sales floor and see who makes more money, gets more praise from the management, and is more likely to get promoted: the honest, non-pushy, laid back salesmen who is truly looking out for customers, or the shady, pushy, amped up salesman who misleads customers.

every sales situation I've worked in (guitars, car audio, electronics, etc...) it was always the latter salesman. Most consumers have reacted to this by becoming more submissive, as per Timothy Leary's Interpersonal Circumplex. It really makes me grind my teeth when customers walk into a store and ask the salesman for advice, treating him like a trusted friend the whole time. Most people would rather let a salesman think for them (and rip them off) then do a little research from a trustworthy independant source.

But yeah... you cant survive by being totally altruistic. Even preachers have to collect tithes.


--------------------
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lurks a Doktor
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2108864 - 11/15/03 11:07 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event &#8211; like a
new Pearl Harbor


??? That is not proof of anything. It is merely a statement
of fact.

From what I saw on their website these guys are interested in
overhauling the American military, ensuring American interests
abroad, and promoting democracy.

It is a simple fact that if a catastrophic event happens,
this galvanizes people to meet that threat. This concept is not
new and has been around for a long time. Just because they
mentioned something that is patently true does not mean THEY,
any government officials, or any corporation officials were involved
in the 9/11 attacks.


* The junta's blatant interference with the 9/11 investigation


Is not proof of involvement in the 9/11 attacks. Maybe they are
trying to hide something, but you have NO clue what they are trying
to hide. It could be allegations about the Saudis funding terror or
it could be about threats that were not taken seriously and that
ended up being true. It could be anything. You don't know and I
don't know, so don't jump to stupid conclusions.


The hijacker's passports were displayed on TV in pristine condition
within an hour after the north tower fell.


Think about this for a second. According to cell-phone calls from
passengers on the plane, the hijackers were Arab. So airport
officials checked all of the men on the plane registry who were
Arab. They then notified officials who looked them up. Their
passport pictures were found and given to a news agency. In todays
modern world with fast information retrieval at our fingertips,
it is not unreasonable to assume that the hijacker's identities
and pictures were found and broadcast very quickly.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2108879 - 11/15/03 11:20 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

the reason they are paid so much is not because their job is difficult, but because the work they do is more valuable, and while just about anyone can sew a soccerball together, there are very few who are qualified to run a large corporation.

How many qualifications does it take to run a corporation into the ground?

Or wipe millions off it's value and walk away with a 3-4 million dollar golden handshake?

Just about anyone could do that - including those 13 year olds.

There are very, very few managers who do anything so out of the ordinary that they deserve to pay themselves many times more than everyone else.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2108891 - 11/15/03 11:31 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

How many qualifications does it take to run a corporation into the ground?

none. perhaps this is why we rarely see people with no qualifications running large corporations.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2109085 - 11/15/03 01:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well, they're certainly highly qualified at running the companies into the ground  :smirk:

Check out corporate performance and CEO's salaries since 2001. Seems no matter how badly they do they award themselves higher and higher salaries. 


--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2109118 - 11/15/03 01:12 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

so you think the shareholders of some corporations are paying too much for their executives? you should call up the board of directors at some major corporations and tell them about it then...

"hi... yeah... this is alex... and i've got it figured out. let me let you guys in on something... you're spending FAR too much on your executives. check out corporate performance and CEO's salaries since 2001. seriously... i know what i'm talking about here... those guys you pay to run the company... well, they don't know what the hell they're doing. a 13 year old could run the company as well as they do... hello?"


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2109125 - 11/15/03 01:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

How much input on salary do you think the shareholders get?

you should call up the board of directors at some major corporations and tell them about it then...

I tried. They were out playing golf.. :smirk:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2109156 - 11/15/03 01:35 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

How much input on salary do you think the shareholders get?

in a corporation, the shareholders elect the members of the board of directors. this board establishes, or at the very least approves, the salaries paid to the executives.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2109520 - 11/15/03 04:22 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Alright, you can lump all us liberals into one catagory if you wish.

Im not negative of my country. Im negative regarding some of it's foreign policy and motivations. Dont blame 9/11 on Iraq. Im not blaming it on corporations either. I was asking you... where should the blame be... because nobody seemed to be getting it completely right.

Im either with you our against you, eh?


--------------------


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2109578 - 11/15/03 04:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

From my observations, it seems that PsiloKitten and Alex123 are both operating off of some TV - based stereotype of corporate officals. I think that this really proves the "hatred of the wealthy" that we are discussing.

Most CEO's and shareholders are not trillionaire tycoons who spend their days floating around on the pool on one of their yachts, then fly across the country for supper. This is grossly inaccurate. Picking "The Asshole Executive" out of a movie and likening all corporate executives to him is irrational and assinine. If you were to examine the number of hours that executives put in, I'm sure you'd find than it's more than the 40 hours that their employees put in.

If creating or running a gigantic, multi-billion dollar company is so easy, why don't both of you do it?

The actual act of thinking that every executive fits some profile that you've established through your television proves that you do have an inherent dislike for wealthy people.


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2109650 - 11/15/03 05:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event; like a
new Pearl Harbor


??? That is not proof of anything. It is merely a statement
of fact.




No its not incontravertable proof, but damning nonetheless in view of their Statement of Principles. And i would be very hard-pressed to believe that the junta just got extremely lucky on 9/11.

Quote:

From what I saw on their website these guys are interested in
overhauling the American military, ensuring American interests
abroad, and promoting democracy.




If they were so interested in promoting democracy they would all kill themselves.


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2109700 - 11/15/03 05:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"How many qualifications does it take to run a corporation into the ground?

none. perhaps this is why we rarely see people with no qualifications running large corporations. "

You forgot three words there bro.

'into the ground' that is.

So please, since YOU claim to know so much, please explain the thought process that goes into paying your CEO more when they've actually worsened conditions in the company, and lessened its profitability.

And don't act like CEO's are angels sent from heaven to redeem mankind. I've seen firsthand a board of three owners conspire to lie to employees about the company's financial situation, break the law by not giving any warning to closing the doors, refusing to pay backpay for the required 60 days they were supposed to announce anything by (which amounted to ~$10million, with them holding ~$120+ million in assets and only having ~$20million in debts owed), and in the end what happened? All employees were left unemployed with LESS THAN a day's notice -- actually, most of them were never told they were unemployed, they either heard it on the news or found out when they showed up to work and no one was there -- and the 3 CEO's all walked off with more than $25 million each for destroying a company, lying to everyone about profits, and breaking laws and their contract with the union.

But these are good people, right?


--------------------
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revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2109721 - 11/15/03 06:01 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

And don't act like CEO's are angels sent from heaven to redeem mankind.

When did *i* ever say that?!? Have you even bothered to read any of my posts??...Or did you mean to snap at someone else?
Im on your side..


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2109740 - 11/15/03 06:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

please explain the thought process that goes into paying your CEO more when they've actually worsened conditions in the company, and lessened its profitability.

i don't know, but if i owned stock in or was employed by a real corporation that did that, i might actually care.

don't act like CEO's are angels sent from heaven to redeem mankind.

am i?

I've seen firsthand a board of three owners conspire to lie to employees about the company's financial situation, break the law by not giving any warning to closing the doors, refusing to pay backpay for the required 60 days they were supposed to announce anything by (which amounted to ~$10million, with them holding ~$120+ million in assets and only having ~$20million in debts owed), and in the end what happened? All employees were left unemployed with LESS THAN a day's notice -- actually, most of them were never told they were unemployed, they either heard it on the news or found out when they showed up to work and no one was there -- and the 3 CEO's all walked off with more than $25 million each for destroying a company, lying to everyone about profits, and breaking laws and their contract with the union.

so some people are scumbags. there are literally thousands of corporations that aren't run that way. there's this attitude here that all corporate executives are scumbag criminals who are obscenely overpaid for their services... services that entail really nothing more than bankrupting the companies they work for and walking away with millions while leaving investors out money and workers unemployed. this assesment of course has little to do with fact and alot to do with the very sort of hatred to which the title of this thread is referring.


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2109741 - 11/15/03 06:12 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

he was using that goddamn quick reply.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2109765 - 11/15/03 06:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
so some people are scumbags. there are literally thousands of corporations that aren't run that way. there's this attitude here that all corporate executives are scumbag criminals who are obscenely overpaid for their services... services that entail really nothing more than bankrupting the companies they work for and walking away with millions while leaving investors out money and workers unemployed. this assesment of course has little to do with fact and alot to do with the very sort of hatred to which the title of this thread is referring.




Brilliant! The stereotypes of the "Rich Men" that run "Corporations" is another facet of the precise topic they are saying they don't believe exists. Their minds take the image of a rick CEO jackass and transplant that as the leader of every corporation executive in existance. The vast, gigantic minority don't want to hurt or screw over their employees in any manner. More corporations are doing things now to reward their employees than ever before. These people live in a world created by a television, displaying their total lack of any connection with reality.



--------------------
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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2110094 - 11/15/03 08:43 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, cause I said that. That was one of the gayest little analysis to evade the issue that Ive seen here. WTG. Have you met lysergic? You two will get along like peas in a pod.

My opinion of you is that you are just another melodramatic meglomaniac and you should probably go to the end of that line.

All that you've surmised about me in your ten days and 87 posts here at the shroomery, eh?

Sweet. Atleast you identified your ignorance up front and I wont have to bother wasting any time on you.


--------------------


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2110204 - 11/15/03 09:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

PsiloKitten, the idea is to address the message, not the messenger. Please reserve the psychoanalysis for private messages.

enimatpyrt, same applies to you. No need to speculate on how someone here has formed one of the opinions they express. If you feel the opinion (however formed) is inaccurate, showing it to be inaccurate is sufficient.

pinky


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2110206 - 11/15/03 09:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Alright, you can lump all us liberals into one catagory if you wish.

Liberals tend to lump themselves into categories because of the ideas
that they espouse. I just merely observe the process.


Im not negative of my country. Im negative regarding some of it's
foreign policy and motivations.

So am I.


Dont blame 9/11 on Iraq. Im not blaming it on corporations either.

I never did. It was Islamic extremists who hate us because we
give Israel money and weapons and because we have soldiers in Saudi
Arabia.


I was asking you... where should the blame be...

With nutso Muslims who seek to kill innocent civilians and with
US foreign policy for pissing them off in the first place.


Im either with you our against you, eh?


That isn't true. I am willing to listen to anybody, as long as they
back their arguments up with articulate reasoning and solid
information.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2110672 - 11/16/03 01:30 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

CEO who easily worked 80-100 hours a week

Damn, that must've been one helluva round of golf  :smile2:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2110683 - 11/16/03 01:34 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

in a corporation, the shareholders elect the members of the board of directors. this board establishes, or at the very least approves, the salaries paid to the executives.

Strange how i keep seeing angry shareholders stood outside corporate meetings complaining at the CEO salary awards and saying how powerless they are to change it. I think there's a little more to it than you think mush.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2110793 - 11/16/03 02:43 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Where did exactly do you "keep seeing" this phenomenon?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2110945 - 11/16/03 05:37 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I keep seeing it on the news baby. You telling me you've never seen shareholders angry at CEO salaries? Doesn't Fox news cover that stuff?

Shareholders in Qwest Communications (Q:NYSE - news - commentary - research - analysis) took a beating in 2001. The stock, which began the year at $40.88, finished at $14.13, a 65% decline

But CEO Joseph Nacchio didn't share that pain. The company raised his salary in 2001 to $1.2 million from 2000's $860,000. And his total compensation for the year came to $102 million, including $75 million from exercising stock options and $24 million in long-term incentives dating back to 1997. Oh, and the company awarded Nacchio an additional 7.3 million new options to keep him focused on running the company in the future.

Qwest points out, rightly, that a good portion of Nacchio's compensation for 2001 -- some of the stock options and the long-term incentives, for example -- is actually carried over from his earlier years with the company. And that this compensation should be measured against the stock's movement from its initial public offering price of a split-adjusted price of $5.50 in June 1997.

Trouble is, that's pretty much where the stock is trading now.

It just doesn't seem fair, does it? CEOs aren't supposed to make out like bandits while shareholders bleed.

Unfortunately, the unfairness isn't limited to Qwest. The compensation system at hundreds of companies provides massive rewards for CEOs and other high executives when times are flush -- and when times are tough.

On paper, of course, the system isn't supposed to work like this. The whole idea of annual bonuses, incentive stock grants and huge options awards to upper-level executives is that these rewards will align managers' and shareholders' interests. Managers will do well personally when they deliver the goods for shareholders. The more a pay package rises and falls with performance, the more incentives a manager will have to perform.

In reality, though, all too often the system seems to deliver higher pay no matter what the company's performance. For example, in 2000, a truly rotten year for U.S. business and shareholders, the median package of salary and bonus climbed by 10% to a little more than $1.8 million, according to a Mercer Human Resource Consulting/Wall Street Journal survey of 350 companies. .


http://www.thestreet.com/funds/jubak/10017595.html

Looks like shareholders don't even know what the CEO is paid most of the time:


Amid a welter of corporate fraud and mismanagement, CEOs are being criticized for excessive compensation, and not just in the U.S. Alcatel of France lost $4.5 billion last year, but its CEO, Serge Tchuruk, received a 9% pay raise. At Vodafone, Chris Gent took in an average of more than $7 million a year from 1999 to 2001, a period in which the company's share price fell by 43%. Jean-Marie Messier, Vivendi Universal's chairman, now departed, last year received $5 million in pay, an increase of 20%, plus stock options, as his company lost $13.3 billion.

These examples are just the tip of the iceberg. Shareholders want to know why top executives are richly rewarded while investors lose their shirts.

The four principal corporate ills that people are angry about are fraud, greed, secrecy and a lack of accountability. We'll let the police, the lawyers and lawmakers deal with the first. If the rules aren't tough enough, tighten them. As for greed, this is for shareholders to decide. If they want to pay a CEO $10 million or $100 million, it's for them to vote--assuming that they are given the choice.

But shareholder decisions must be based on the facts, and too often investors are kept in the dark about the pay of senior executives. Transparency and accountability go hand in hand. Just take a look at our table of the compensation of the CEOs of the world's 50 largest non-U.S. companies by market capitalization (see page 42). Of these, 7 reveal nothing about how much they pay their executives. Another 21 disclose a remuneration figure for the board of directors as a whole but don't say how much individual members receive (thus for the table, we had to estimate how much the CEO was paid).

And some countries are more secretive than others. It's hardly a coincidence that all but two of the Japanese companies on our list give no information about executive compensation. Or that 30 out of 33 companies included in Germany's Dax stock index don't reveal the pay of individual executives. .

http://www.forbes.com/global/2002/0902/032_print.html





--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2111320 - 11/16/03 11:33 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"The four principal corporate ills that people are angry about are fraud, greed, secrecy and a lack of accountability. We'll let the police, the lawyers and lawmakers deal with the first. If the rules aren't tough enough, tighten them. As for greed, this is for shareholders to decide. If they want to pay a CEO $10 million or $100 million, it's for them to vote--assuming that they are given the choice.

But shareholder decisions must be based on the facts, and too often investors are kept in the dark about the pay of senior executives. Transparency and accountability go hand in hand. Just take a look at our table of the compensation of the CEOs of the world's 50 largest non-U.S. companies by market capitalization (see page 42). Of these, 7 reveal nothing about how much they pay their executives. Another 21 disclose a remuneration figure for the board of directors as a whole but don't say how much individual members receive (thus for the table, we had to estimate how much the CEO was paid). "

:thumbup:


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2118776 - 11/18/03 12:32 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

THANK YOU for that article
i think that says a lot. i'd never seen it before, but probably a half dozen others just like it.. each mentioning different companies.
:O
OHNO MAYBE WE WERE ALL RIGHT
MAYBE EXECS ARE EVIL


--------------------
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revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2119401 - 11/18/03 09:41 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well they sure as hell ain't Gandhi lets face it  :smile2:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2120264 - 11/18/03 03:11 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Many of those who do the bitching about the wealthy are those who will never amount to much and as such want government to steal from those who are successful.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinehavatampa
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2120763 - 11/18/03 06:12 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

LOL

It's funny when I hear poor people defending the rich.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2121163 - 11/18/03 09:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


It's funny when I hear poor people defending the rich.


It's even funnier to hear the poor lambast the rich for all of their
problems.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2121287 - 11/18/03 10:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

It's readily apparent from the responses of some (but not all) that they are consumed with envy and hatred for those who do well for themselves economically. Instead of asking the rational questions of how to emulate the wealth building strategies of the successful so those who are not yet so can become wealthy, or taking it upon themselves to build wealth so they can help out others, they resort to hate filled rhetoric and blame the rich for the plight of the poor, equating all success with criminality. Their answer is not to build wealth, but to steal it via the coercive mechanisms of the state and give it to those who did not earn it. It is a political expression of the school yard bully, a combination of sour grapes and common thuggery, masquerading as ideals favoring those who earn less money.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblethescientist
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2121348 - 11/18/03 10:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

its amazing that the only thing on this continent with value is money.
amazing and sad

that was quite the generalization evolving.
"thuggery", is raping our planet and leaving nothing for the future.
do you care about the generation that survives you?
we see success only in money. cars, large houses. big gates.
wealth is not hard to acquire. i have met hundreds of rich stupid ass rednecks. i am not impressed by them or desire their excess.

anyone here realize that money has no true value?
we live in fictitious times.......................


we live in a natural world beyond our control, finite


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2121478 - 11/18/03 11:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


It's readily apparent from the responses of some (but not all) that
they are consumed with envy and hatred for those who do well for
themselves economically.

Their answer is not to build wealth, but to steal it via the coercive
mechanisms of the state and give it to those who did not earn it.


I agree with you. I am seeing more bitterness, bias, and innuendo
than legitamate arguments. And this attitude seems as if it is
coming more from hatred of the wealthy than concern for the poor.

The assumption seems to be that the wealthy took advantage of the
poor to get where they are. I am not saying that never happens...
of course it does. But, it is stupid to automatically assume
that it ALWAYS happens and to color every thought that comes into
your head with this bias. I can't help but shake my head when I
examine the ideology that has been built up around these ideas.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2121556 - 11/19/03 12:20 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

And what I find funny is the generalizing you are doing, thinking everyone who thinks that many, many CEO's are immoral thieves concerned more with their own pockets than the well-being of their company, into some kind of leftist tax-happy nut.
I don't EVER recalling saying the government should tax and redistribute.
I don't like the government either. Don't trust them any more than I would a CEO, which is to say, I wouldn't trust them even if we were in the same room and I just had my back turned.

No, I'll simply glare at them like the roadkill they are, and wish people like them didn't exist.

Anyway, yall talk about being rich like it's something everyone can do. NO, IT'S NOT. Wealth is finite. If most people were rich, inflation would eat them alive and all of a sudden, they'd be lower-middle-class again at best. durp!

Don't you people think that maybe rather than taking another $80 million bonus, it might be better to give 4,000 employees a $20,000 raise? I bet they might stop stealing from work for a few months. I bet they'd love that company forever in fact. Do they deserve it? Feh, probably not, but neither does the CEO.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2121625 - 11/19/03 12:49 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

*sigh*... face it: being a affluent suburban wasp bitch is about the most unhip thing in the world... "I'm from irvine" just sounds so fucking lame... there is no flava in the burbs.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2122349 - 11/19/03 10:04 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Their answer is not to build wealth, but to steal it via the coercive mechanisms of the state and give it to those who did not earn it. It is a political expression of the school yard bully, a combination of sour grapes and common thuggery, masquerading as ideals favoring those who earn less money.




Unfortunately, thats exactly the mentality held by many corporations today. When a manufacturer closes a factory and exports all the work to China, thats thuggery. And when the ex-factory workers re-enter the workforce as computer programmers only to have their new jobs exported to India, thats thuggery too. In both cases the products are sold at the same price as they were when they were manufactured in the US.

Quote:

Instead of asking the rational questions of how to emulate the wealth building strategies of the successful so those who are not yet so can become wealthy, or taking it upon themselves to build wealth so they can help out others, they resort to hate filled rhetoric and blame the rich for the plight of the poor, equating all success with criminality.




Thats prolly because in this case success is the result of criminality. However when they do it its called by some lame name like "structural adjustment" or "deregulation", as opposed to "looting" or "stealing". And they are backed up by the coercive mechanism of the state to boot.

EDIT: And when they commit simulated acts of terrorism to create grounds for cutting off civil liberties in order to avoid their cost, thats thuggery too.


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (11/19/03 10:12 AM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2122371 - 11/19/03 10:11 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Anyway, yall talk about being rich like it's something everyone can
do. NO, IT'S NOT.

If most people were rich, inflation would eat them alive and all of a
sudden, they'd be lower-middle-class again at best. durp!

In any economy it is not possible for everyone to be rich. Anybody
with a first-grader's grasp of economics realizes that.


Wealth is finite.

A common fallacy. I already said this in another thread, but I will
repeat it.

There are a bunch of things that make up wealth. Some are finite(
land, minerals), some are finite but renewable(trees, crops), and
some are unlimited in scope and value(human effort and ideas).
Wealth is created all of the time.


Don't you people think that maybe rather than taking another $80
million bonus, it might be better to give 4,000 employees a $20,000
raise?

Personally, I think giving a bunch of people in the company money
would increase productivity more. But, how a board of directors
chooses to compensate its people is none of my business unless I
am a shareholder.

A CEO of a public company does not determine what he gets paid; the
board of directors does. The board of directors is elected by the
shareholders. The shareholders are the private citizens who own the
stock in the company. If the CEO gets overpaid, it is the fault of
the board of directors and the shareholders.


And what I find funny is the generalizing you are doing, thinking
everyone who thinks that many, many CEO's are immoral thieves
concerned more with their own pockets than the well-being of their
company, into some kind of leftist tax-happy nut.


I have found that the people who decry being stereotyped the most,
are the ones who do everything in their power to fit the stereotype.

I have no doubt there are a lot of wealthy people who are not very
nice. But there are a lot of poor people who are not very nice
either. Immorality afflicts all races and classes. Unethical
behavior is not confined to the rich, as some people seem to
insinuate and harp upon.

I hear examples from the Left of CEO's doing something bad, yet
I hear nothing of the high violent crime rates among black males
in America. I hear nothing about the massive number of American
girls and women who become pregnant and who can't afford to support a
baby, so they then proceed to mooch off of us taxpayers. I hear
nothing of the fact that when we dump money into bad neighorhoods,
the people there don't appreciate it and then proceed to trash
everything we gave them.

Both the Left and the Right save their ire for select groups, and
then ignore when other people do bad things. This biased
prejudice is exactly what I was trying to bring attention to with
this thread.



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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2122768 - 11/19/03 01:01 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

thescientist said:
its amazing that the only thing on this continent with value is money.
amazing and sad



It's not amazing, it is incorrect.

Quote:

that was quite the generalization evolving.



That's quite a reading comprehension problem you have there, thescientist. I stated, "It's readily apparent from the responses of some (but not all)..."

Quote:

"thuggery", is raping our planet and leaving nothing for the future.



This action is not the sole domain of the wealthy (if that is your implication). Try driving through Mexico and look at how the POOR trash the planet.

Quote:

do you care about the generation that survives you?



Yes, that is why I support the repeal of the death tax. That is why I am against legislation which destroys the economic opporturtunities and incentives for others to build better lives for themselves.

Quote:

we see success only in money. cars, large houses. big gates.



Aren't you contradicting yourself? At the beginning of your little rant you stated, "the only thing on this continent with value is money." When you use the term 'we' who are you referring to? There are many who do not share your opinion, I am one of them.

Quote:

wealth is not hard to acquire.



That's why some insist on stealing it through taxation. It's very easy to aquire that way.

Quote:

i have met hundreds of rich stupid ass rednecks. i am not impressed by them or desire their excess.



Not that I believe you but, how very intolerant of you. Do you think that others should have to live their lives by your standards?

Quote:

anyone here realize that money has no true value?



Well, Pinky and I (and probably Mushmaster) have touched on this several times. Money is a medium of exchange. Value is subjective. If I go into a liquor store and exchange a $5.00 bill for a six pack of beer, it is obvious that I value the six pack of beer more than the $5.00 bill. It is also obvious that the kind merchant values the $5.00 bill more than the six pack of beer.

Quote:

we live in fictitious times.......................



Interesting that you should say this, perhaps a reduction in the consumption of mind altering substances will help you to get a better grasp of reality.

Quote:

we live in a natural world beyond our control,



Some things are within our control, some are not.

Quote:

... finite



Unknown.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2122792 - 11/19/03 01:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

there is a difference between someone who has worked hard for long periods of time to acquire wealth, and someone who has done nothing to rationalize their prosperity, besides being born or married into riches.


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Lallafa]
    #2122813 - 11/19/03 01:16 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I wish I was born into or married into wealth. Why should I have anything against those who have come into their wealth this way?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2122832 - 11/19/03 01:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

i didt say you should.


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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Offlinehavatampa
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Lallafa]
    #2122926 - 11/19/03 01:58 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"There are a bunch of things that make up wealth. Some are finite(
land, minerals), some are finite but renewable(trees, crops), and
some are unlimited in scope and value(human effort and ideas).
Wealth is created all of the time."

Money is an extension of an allocation of a resource, a symbol meant to be equated with a certain amount of something tangible and finite. You may not see wealth as a zero-sum reality, but it is. Not everyone can simultaneously be wealthy. In order for one person to gain wealth, with few exceptions, someone else must not be getting that wealth. That's what sets equilibrium pricing in a competitive market.

The problem with unrestrained capitalism is that it enables those with wealth to spin out of control in their accumulation. The more money you have, the more money you can make, and so on and so on and so on. But there's only so much money out there. If not, it would not retain value.

Can there be no compromise between laissez-faire and socialism?


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2123047 - 11/19/03 02:42 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

havatampa said:
Money is an extension of an allocation of a resource, a symbol meant to be equated with a certain amount of something tangible and finite.



Wrong, money is a medium of exchange. In order for it to be useful it must be generally accepted as such. Since all 'modern' currencies are currently fiat currencies, there is nothing tangible and finite that these currencies are pegged to. If a currency is on a gold standard (for instance), there would be validity to your statement.

Quote:

You may not see wealth as a zero-sum reality, but it is.



Apparently you are ignorant of human creativity and the concept of value.

Quote:

Not everyone can simultaneously be wealthy. In order for one person to gain wealth, with few exceptions, someone else must not be getting that wealth.



Bullshit. Again, people create wealth. Value is subjective. When a person purchases something, he is exchanging something of less value to HIM than that which he is receiving. When a person sells something, he is exchanging something of less value to HIM than that which he is receiving. Both parties gain from the exchange based upon their personal valuation of the items being exchanged.

Quote:

The problem with unrestrained capitalism is that it enables those with wealth to spin out of control in their accumulation.



This makes no sense... unless you mean that those 'superior' individuals such as yourself do not have control over the actions of their fellow man in their misguided quest to create utopia.

Quote:

But there's only so much money out there.



Tell that to the Federal Reserve... you apparently do not know what you are rambling about.

Quote:

If not, it would not retain value.



Well, seeing as the currency has been greatly inflated over the years, it has LOST value, resulting in the inevitable price inflation. Don't believe me? Check out the prices of homes today versus 30 years ago.

Quote:

Can there be no compromise between laissez-faire and socialism?



Having a little socialism is like being a little pregnant.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Lallafa]
    #2123113 - 11/19/03 03:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


there is a difference between someone who has worked hard for long
periods of time to acquire wealth, and someone who has done nothing
to rationalize their prosperity, besides being born or married into
riches.


There are two legal ways to get money; earn it or have it given to
you. If you earn it, then that's fine. If it is given to you,
that is fine as well. People should be allowed to do whatever they
want with their wealth, and that includes leaving it to particular
people.


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Invisiblethescientist
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2123156 - 11/19/03 03:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The north american economy is driven by consumption of goods.

anyone disagree?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2123252 - 11/19/03 03:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Money is an extension of an allocation of a resource, a symbol meant
to be equated with a certain amount of something tangible and finite.
You may not see wealth as a zero-sum reality, but it is. Not everyone
can simultaneously be wealthy.


It matters what you determine "wealthy" as. If you are saying that
there will always be disparity in a free-market economy, then yes
that is true. There will be people who have more than the average
and people who have less than the average. But, the real way to
test the health of a free-market economy is to examine its poor.
Do the poor have access to a lot? In this country I believe that they
do. Do you see poor people starving in America(I don't. In fact
they often seem to be overweight)? Do you see poor people driving
cars and owning stuff? I do. The poor in America are wealthy
in comparison to most of the rest of the world.

You argue that it is not possible for all people in a free-market
economy to be wealthy. I have acknowledged this repeatedly. But,
I think it is quite apparent from comparing strictly controlled
economies and free-market economies that the people as a whole enjoy
a much higher standard of living in the free-market economy.

When I say that things are finite but renewable and that some
things can't be quanitified and are boundless, do you not read
my examples?

I think we can agree that all of the energy that is on this planet
owes its existence to power from the sun. The power that the sun will
give off during its lifetime is not infinite, but it is so large that
for us it can be considered boundless.

So, when you take a seed from a plant and put it in the ground and
grow something and sell it, you have created something of value
out of something that had no value. You have created wealth.

Wealth is directly related to the amount of energy on this earth and
the amount being directed towards this earth. So yes, as a whole
wealth is finite. But the opportunities to create wealth are so
immense that it can be considered infinite by us.


In order for one person to gain wealth, with few exceptions, someone
else must not be getting that wealth.

That is correct in a way. Someone else is not getting that
wealth, but why should other people enjoy wealth that they had
no involvement in creating?

If nobody takes action to create wealth, it won't be created and the
mass of people will live in deplorable poverty and hardship. By
creating wealth you are not taking it from someone else. You
create things that can be used by people which raises the
standard of living.


Can there be no compromise between laissez-faire and socialism?


Of course there can.

Pure capitalism would not be what is best for the world in my opinion.
I have long been a proponent of a free-market economy that has
controls on it that are instituted by democratically elected
officials.


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Invisiblethescientist
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2123254 - 11/19/03 03:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"Interesting that you should say this, perhaps a reduction in the consumption of mind altering substances will help you to get a better grasp of reality. "

evolving, personal insults are not a defence of the statements you make.
they are a last resort.

if everyone resorted to saying "your point of view is clouded by narcotics".
things wouldn't progress very well would they?

next time resort to witty name calling, in the least it may be humourous.

HAVATAMPA- very well put.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2123256 - 11/19/03 03:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


The north american economy is driven by consumption of goods.

anyone disagree?


All economies are driven by the consumption of goods.


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Invisiblethescientist
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2123382 - 11/19/03 04:44 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

if goods are regarded as tangible, as opposed to work.
would anyone disagree that these goods are finite?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2123401 - 11/19/03 04:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Disagree? Hell yes.

Anything made of wood for example.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2123412 - 11/19/03 04:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


if goods are regarded as tangible, as opposed to work.
would anyone disagree that these goods are finite?


Goods are made out of resources. Resources are limited.
Some resources are renewable and some are so plentiful
that we need not worry about their supply.


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Invisiblethescientist
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2123484 - 11/19/03 05:32 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

the production of wood is finite, that cannot be argued. our planet has a limited ability to produce through photosynthesis.

trees are renewable. it can be argued that forests (ecosystem) are not.

anyone else have an insight into the question i posed above?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2123737 - 11/19/03 07:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

thescientist writes:

if goods are regarded as tangible, as opposed to work.
would anyone disagree that these goods are finite?


At any given microsecond in time, yes -- there are a finite number of goods in existence. A microsecond later, there are more goods in existence.

There is more wealth (goods and services) in existence today than there was a decade ago. A decade ago, there was more wealth in existence than there was a decade before that. Etc. etc.

Any good a human creates which is not immediately consumed for subsistence-level existence is by definition a surplus, and adds to the growing quantity of wealth in existence.

I should point out that RandalFlagg is mistaken when he says resources are wealth. They are not. They are resources. An undiscovered deposit of iron ore a mile deep is not wealth. An un-harvested forest doesn't contain wealth, it contains resources. Those resources are of course potentially capable of being used to eventually create wealth, but the key word is "potentially".

pinky


--------------------


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2123926 - 11/19/03 09:20 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

People should be allowed to do whatever they
want with their wealth, and that includes leaving it to particular
people.



I disagree. People shouldn't be allowed to use their hard-earned cash to bribe government officials or juries.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2123958 - 11/19/03 09:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

That's right. Nor should they be allowed to hire hit men (unless it's to eliminate politicians).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OnlineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2124367 - 11/20/03 03:28 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Anybody
with a first-grader's grasp of economics realizes that.





Those guys make better accountants than JEWS!


I gotta get me a first-grader accountant.




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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2124795 - 11/20/03 10:07 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)


People shouldn't be allowed to use their hard-earned cash to bribe
government officials or juries.


Ok, people shouldn't be allowed to do ANYTHING with their money.
But, I feel as if they should be able to leave it to whom they choose
without having it all taxed away.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2124798 - 11/20/03 10:08 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Ok, people shouldn't be allowed to do ANYTHING with their money.



Oh no, you're not turning over to the dark side are you? :confused:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Phred]
    #2124804 - 11/20/03 10:11 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)


I should point out that RandalFlagg is mistaken when he says
resources are wealth. They are not. They are resources.


*Gasp*  Me be wrong??  :razz:

I see where you are coming from.  Wealth is created from resources.
Unrefined resources create no wealth until they are made into
something. 


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2124808 - 11/20/03 10:17 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)



I wrote that in an improper manner. What I meant is that some
monetary exchanges should be restricted, such as bribing judges and
such.


Edited by RandalFlagg (11/20/03 01:10 PM)


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Offlinehavatampa
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2124869 - 11/20/03 10:55 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Having a little bit of socialism is like being a little pregnant...
What does that mean? Are you implying that once you introduce any level of socialism it will ultimately evolve and give birth to communism? I would like to see examples to back that up.

OK, money is not infinite, niether are resources. (Resources are renewable, but only if the rate of renewal is not exceeded by the rate of consumption). Our currency may not be pegged to gold (Bretton Woods) anymore, thanks to Nixon, but there is only so much money out there.

You mention the Federal Reserve, do you not realize how much time and effort they spend trying to stop counterfitting? Why? Because the more money there is in circulation, the less value it retains. If it were to start raining 100 dollar bills all across the nation for two weeks straight, would you turn around and sell your car for $10,000 when it stopped? I don't think so. By the way, you don't exchange something for another thing of lesser value, you exchange for something of equal value. The value of the dollar represents its value as related to something fixed, although that certainly changes over time via inflation.

The point is not that people should be prohibited from accumulating wealth, that's rediculous. The incentive to wealth is what sparks innovation. However, when the wealthy band together and seek ways to control as much of the available resources and wealth as possible, I have a problem with that.

I'm not suggesting that those who accumulate wealth should have it unfairly taken away from them, just to give it to someone who's poor and lazy. I'm suggesting that those who benifit the most from the system our state safegaurds have the largest obligation to help maintain our state. If it weren't for America, they would not have been able to get rich, therefore they owe it to America to help keep our state functioning properly. That includes roads, schools, hospitals, etc. Of course the poor have to help foot the bill too, but not at a level which will render them destitue. It's not a matter of taxing the rich a larger percentage than the poor, its about taxing those with barely any money a smaller percentage than those with enormous amounts, since the poor need every dollar they can get just to get by.

True, America's poor are much better off than the poor in other nations. But then again, the poor in some nations are much better off than the poor in America. The fact is, the disparity between the poor and the rich continues to grow. This is fine, to a certain extent, if its just because the rich are making more and more money while the poor are staying the same, in terms of average income. However, that is not the case. Compare the average family income after removing the top 15% from the equation over the past ten years versus the rate of inflation. It's apparent that, not only are the rich getting richer, but the poor are getting poorer as well. That's because its a zero sum reality. True, you can print as much money as you want, but it only makes things more expensive when you do.

Please refrain from negative, profain responses. They are counter-productive to constructive dialogue.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2124940 - 11/20/03 11:36 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

havatampa said:
The point is not that people should be prohibited from accumulating wealth, that's rediculous. The incentive to wealth is what sparks innovation. However, when the wealthy band together and seek ways to control as much of the available resources and wealth as possible, I have a problem with that.




Why?

Quote:


I'm not suggesting that those who accumulate wealth should have it unfairly taken away from them, just to give it to someone who's poor and lazy. I'm suggesting that those who benifit the most from the system our state safegaurds have the largest obligation to help maintain our state.




Wouldn't a flat tax rate mean the more that you made, the more that you paid? Shouldn't that money go to the infrastructure (such as things you mention below) rather than to the poor? Isn't giving it to the poor a direct contradiction of what ytou say. Since, instead of it maintaining our state, it is just making the poor people get a bigger TV?

Quote:


If it weren't for America, they would not have been able to get rich, therefore they owe it to America to help keep our state functioning properly. That includes roads, schools, hospitals, etc.




Where does welfare come into this? Did welfare help make the rich people? And if so, wouldn't that mean that people can become rich who aren't rich, thus eliminating the hatred of the wealthy?

Quote:


Of course the poor have to help foot the bill too, but not at a level which will render them destitue.




Flat tax, every family pays the same percentage of their income. Of the examples you mentioned above (schools, roads and hospitals) only one of them truely is funded, for every single person, by the government. If I'm "rich" and I decide to send my children to private schools, guess what, I still pay my full share of taxes. If I'm "rich" and I have decent medical insuranec, why would I need to pay for the hospitals? As for roads, does my larger contribution (since my taxes aren't going for schools that I or my family are using, or hospitals that we are using) give me access to a better road system?
Quote:


It's not a matter of taxing the rich a larger percentage than the poor, its about taxing those with barely any money a smaller percentage than those with enormous amounts, since the poor need every dollar they can get just to get by.




"just getting by" is quite subjective. To a poor person, just getting by could be making this months payment on their old truck. To a rich person, it could be buying a new helicopter for their yacht. Neither are really necessary for life, who is to say which one is "just getting by" and which one isn't?
Quote:


True, America's poor are much better off than the poor in other nations. But then again, the poor in some nations are much better off than the poor in America.




Name a few nations...

Quote:


Please refrain from negative, profain responses. They are counter-productive to constructive dialogue.



I'm not sure if you were the person that flamed someone on another thread for spelling errors, and if you aren't, please accept my apology, but it's "profane".

The poor in this country are not starving to death, I'd say that should be the extent of the "Riches" job. Their is a minimum wage that is designed to be enough to pay bills and buy food. Their are food stamp programs for people that honestly can't afford food. Should the rich be required to give until their isn't any class distinction? If you say ye, it's because you "hate the wealthy"...


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2124949 - 11/20/03 11:42 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

This is a very interesting discussion. I've just read the last few pages, but here's my take on it (sorry if anybody already brought this up).

I think everybody should be perfectly free to do whatever (within the law) they want with their wealth. Like for example, giving it to your family when you die.

However, the big problem with this is that money equals political power. There is no denying this simple fact. For an extreme example, just take a look at the Bilderberg meetings. We have moved away (well, almost) from governmental systems where you inherit political power, and for a reason.

In my opinion, the only solution is to seperate political and economical interests. Don't accept political leaders with strong ties to large key industries. Politicians should pass bills that benefit industries because this in turn benefit society, not their or their friends pockets. Everybody should be able to go into politics though, and everybody got friends, so there are some practical problems with this, to say the least.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2125274 - 11/20/03 02:08 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Having a little bit of socialism is like being a little pregnant...


Hehe...funny point. But, I believe it is possible and necessary
to be ready to compromise in this world.

If pure capitalism with no controls was allowed to exist, our
environment would be destroyed and wealth would polarize
quickly.

As I already said, I believe in a mainly free-market economy with
controls on destructive behavior(environmental damage, monopolies,
etc...). And I believe in very limited income redistribution
by the government(for schools and care for the mentally retarded).


Are you implying that once you introduce any level of socialism it
will ultimately evolve and give birth to communism? I would like to
see examples to back that up.

When you say "communism", I do not know what you mean. Theoretical
communism declares that the present government must be overthrown
and replaced by an economic dictatorship which will eventually melt
away. In the end people will live happily ever after in communal
bliss.

Or are you referring to a society starting out as free-market
oriented and turning into a heavily socialist state(high taxes and
ample programs to benefit the general population). This has been
happening in most "Western" countries at a steady pace for many
decades and it just keeps getting worse. Our taxes go up as
the government tries to solve more and more problems. I shudder
to think of what America will be like in twenty years.

Unfortunately, it seems to be a trend throughout history that
free-market economies devolve into socialist states. For example,
the Roman government fed a large portion of the population with grain
handouts.


OK, money is not infinite, niether are resources. (Resources are
renewable, but only if the rate of renewal is not exceeded by the
rate of consumption).

Some resources are rare and hard to find(gold). Other
resources are quite prevalent in this world(dirt to grow food).
If we use a resource at a faster rate than it can be
replaced, we will eventually run out of the resource in question.

Are you trying to show that wealth is based upon resources and
because resources are limited, wealth is limited? This is true.
But some of our resources are absolutely massive in scope. For
example, the amount of dirt on this earth that can be used to grow
food, the amount of water on this earth, and the amount of coal on
this earth.

Are there enough resources on this world to provide all 6 billion
people with nice houses, ample food, education, health care, and tons
of fancy stuff? No, not even close.


However, when the wealthy band together and seek ways to control as
much of the available resources and wealth as possible, I have a
problem with that.


I don't like the concept of excessive polarization of wealth either.
That is why I believe in anti-monopoly laws.


I'm not suggesting that those who accumulate wealth should have it
unfairly taken away from them, just to give it to someone who's poor
and lazy. I'm suggesting that those who benifit the most from the
system our state safegaurds have the largest obligation to help
maintain our state.

Agreed. I believe that people who make more money should be taxed
a larger percentage of their income.

But, I think that the American government spends way too much money.
We should decrease spending so that both the poor and the rich
get to keep more of their hard-earned money. And when there is a
tax rebate, I believe that the rich(who paid in more than the poor
did) should get more back.


True, America's poor are much better off than the poor in other
nations. But then again, the poor in some nations are much better off
than the poor in America.

Only because those countries practise higher levels of socialism
than America does. They tax the hell out of their affluent
citizens and give it to the poor. There comes a point when
income redistribution becomes too excessive and harmful.

As I said, some income redistribution is ok in my opinion, such as
offering schooling to all children (regardless of income).

I prefer to live in an economy where I am free to make my own way
and to rely upon myself. I enjoy having economic freedom(or whatever
economic freedom I have left in this country). I don't want
handouts. I will support myself.


The fact is, the disparity between the poor and the rich continues to grow.

Disparity doesn't bother me. I am more concerned with the mass of
people having access to the things they need to survive. In
America we have these things(food, shelter, and stuff). At the
same time I am concerned with the mass of people being able to
freely engage in whatever economic activity that they want to engage
in, without having all of their profit taxed away.






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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: muhurgle]
    #2125281 - 11/20/03 02:12 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


However, the big problem with this is that money equals political
power.


A very unfortunate truism. Money can be used to directly or
indirectly influence the democratic process, therefore subverting
democracy. In my opinion we need stricter rules governing
these areas.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2127076 - 11/21/03 10:30 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"just getting by" is quite subjective. To a poor person, just getting by could be making this months payment on their old truck. To a rich person, it could be buying a new helicopter for their yacht. Neither are really necessary for life, who is to say which one is "just getting by" and which one isn't?"

Considering that to really hold any job, you NEED TRANSPORTATION, but I don't know of any job that'd require a helicopter to transport you around on and off of your PLEASURE CRAFT
I'd say the truck is pretty necessary, and the heli is not.

"Their is a minimum wage that is designed to be enough to pay bills and buy food."

except you can't do either on minimum wage, unless you work 80 hours a week, which you can't do, no one'll let you get that much overtime..

"And when there is a
tax rebate, I believe that the rich(who paid in more than the poor
did) should get more back."

Correct, going on strict numbers, but percentage-wise? Rebate 50% of the poor's, for example.. they could use a steak dinner for once.. the rich can live just the same whether they got a 10% or 90% rebate.
But that 10% is still probably more money than the poor man's 50%.



--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2127126 - 11/21/03 10:52 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I don't mean to imply that I believe the transition from socialism to communism is a feasible hypothesis, I was just wondering what the end result would be, in his/her opinion, using that analogy.

: )


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
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Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2127134 - 11/21/03 10:54 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"Name a few nations..."

Holland
Belgium
Germany
Luxembourg
Finland
Norway
Denmark
Switzerland
Australia
Canada
New Zealand
Japan


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Invisibleshroomophile
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Posts: 762
Loc: USA
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2128391 - 11/21/03 09:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

They get to pay 10 percent tax and i get to pay 50.It's not hatred,it's envy.After alll i could hit the lottery and join the ten percenters.


--------------------
Once the mighty oak,was a nut who held his ground.


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
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Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: shroomophile]
    #2132745 - 11/24/03 02:51 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Good Luck.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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