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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Lallafa]
    #2123113 - 11/19/03 03:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


there is a difference between someone who has worked hard for long
periods of time to acquire wealth, and someone who has done nothing
to rationalize their prosperity, besides being born or married into
riches.


There are two legal ways to get money; earn it or have it given to
you. If you earn it, then that's fine. If it is given to you,
that is fine as well. People should be allowed to do whatever they
want with their wealth, and that includes leaving it to particular
people.


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/09/02
Posts: 804
Loc: Dade County
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2123156 - 11/19/03 03:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The north american economy is driven by consumption of goods.

anyone disagree?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2123252 - 11/19/03 03:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Money is an extension of an allocation of a resource, a symbol meant
to be equated with a certain amount of something tangible and finite.
You may not see wealth as a zero-sum reality, but it is. Not everyone
can simultaneously be wealthy.


It matters what you determine "wealthy" as. If you are saying that
there will always be disparity in a free-market economy, then yes
that is true. There will be people who have more than the average
and people who have less than the average. But, the real way to
test the health of a free-market economy is to examine its poor.
Do the poor have access to a lot? In this country I believe that they
do. Do you see poor people starving in America(I don't. In fact
they often seem to be overweight)? Do you see poor people driving
cars and owning stuff? I do. The poor in America are wealthy
in comparison to most of the rest of the world.

You argue that it is not possible for all people in a free-market
economy to be wealthy. I have acknowledged this repeatedly. But,
I think it is quite apparent from comparing strictly controlled
economies and free-market economies that the people as a whole enjoy
a much higher standard of living in the free-market economy.

When I say that things are finite but renewable and that some
things can't be quanitified and are boundless, do you not read
my examples?

I think we can agree that all of the energy that is on this planet
owes its existence to power from the sun. The power that the sun will
give off during its lifetime is not infinite, but it is so large that
for us it can be considered boundless.

So, when you take a seed from a plant and put it in the ground and
grow something and sell it, you have created something of value
out of something that had no value. You have created wealth.

Wealth is directly related to the amount of energy on this earth and
the amount being directed towards this earth. So yes, as a whole
wealth is finite. But the opportunities to create wealth are so
immense that it can be considered infinite by us.


In order for one person to gain wealth, with few exceptions, someone
else must not be getting that wealth.

That is correct in a way. Someone else is not getting that
wealth, but why should other people enjoy wealth that they had
no involvement in creating?

If nobody takes action to create wealth, it won't be created and the
mass of people will live in deplorable poverty and hardship. By
creating wealth you are not taking it from someone else. You
create things that can be used by people which raises the
standard of living.


Can there be no compromise between laissez-faire and socialism?


Of course there can.

Pure capitalism would not be what is best for the world in my opinion.
I have long been a proponent of a free-market economy that has
controls on it that are instituted by democratically elected
officials.


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/09/02
Posts: 804
Loc: Dade County
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2123254 - 11/19/03 03:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"Interesting that you should say this, perhaps a reduction in the consumption of mind altering substances will help you to get a better grasp of reality. "

evolving, personal insults are not a defence of the statements you make.
they are a last resort.

if everyone resorted to saying "your point of view is clouded by narcotics".
things wouldn't progress very well would they?

next time resort to witty name calling, in the least it may be humourous.

HAVATAMPA- very well put.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2123256 - 11/19/03 03:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


The north american economy is driven by consumption of goods.

anyone disagree?


All economies are driven by the consumption of goods.


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/09/02
Posts: 804
Loc: Dade County
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2123382 - 11/19/03 04:44 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

if goods are regarded as tangible, as opposed to work.
would anyone disagree that these goods are finite?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2123401 - 11/19/03 04:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Disagree? Hell yes.

Anything made of wood for example.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2123412 - 11/19/03 04:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


if goods are regarded as tangible, as opposed to work.
would anyone disagree that these goods are finite?


Goods are made out of resources. Resources are limited.
Some resources are renewable and some are so plentiful
that we need not worry about their supply.


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/09/02
Posts: 804
Loc: Dade County
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2123484 - 11/19/03 05:32 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

the production of wood is finite, that cannot be argued. our planet has a limited ability to produce through photosynthesis.

trees are renewable. it can be argued that forests (ecosystem) are not.

anyone else have an insight into the question i posed above?


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2123737 - 11/19/03 07:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

thescientist writes:

if goods are regarded as tangible, as opposed to work.
would anyone disagree that these goods are finite?


At any given microsecond in time, yes -- there are a finite number of goods in existence. A microsecond later, there are more goods in existence.

There is more wealth (goods and services) in existence today than there was a decade ago. A decade ago, there was more wealth in existence than there was a decade before that. Etc. etc.

Any good a human creates which is not immediately consumed for subsistence-level existence is by definition a surplus, and adds to the growing quantity of wealth in existence.

I should point out that RandalFlagg is mistaken when he says resources are wealth. They are not. They are resources. An undiscovered deposit of iron ore a mile deep is not wealth. An un-harvested forest doesn't contain wealth, it contains resources. Those resources are of course potentially capable of being used to eventually create wealth, but the key word is "potentially".

pinky


--------------------


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2123926 - 11/19/03 09:20 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

People should be allowed to do whatever they
want with their wealth, and that includes leaving it to particular
people.



I disagree. People shouldn't be allowed to use their hard-earned cash to bribe government officials or juries.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2123958 - 11/19/03 09:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

That's right. Nor should they be allowed to hire hit men (unless it's to eliminate politicians).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OnlineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 23,608
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 3 minutes, 39 seconds
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2124367 - 11/20/03 03:28 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Anybody
with a first-grader's grasp of economics realizes that.





Those guys make better accountants than JEWS!


I gotta get me a first-grader accountant.




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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2124795 - 11/20/03 10:07 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)


People shouldn't be allowed to use their hard-earned cash to bribe
government officials or juries.


Ok, people shouldn't be allowed to do ANYTHING with their money.
But, I feel as if they should be able to leave it to whom they choose
without having it all taxed away.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2124798 - 11/20/03 10:08 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Ok, people shouldn't be allowed to do ANYTHING with their money.



Oh no, you're not turning over to the dark side are you? :confused:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Phred]
    #2124804 - 11/20/03 10:11 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)


I should point out that RandalFlagg is mistaken when he says
resources are wealth. They are not. They are resources.


*Gasp*  Me be wrong??  :razz:

I see where you are coming from.  Wealth is created from resources.
Unrefined resources create no wealth until they are made into
something. 


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2124808 - 11/20/03 10:17 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)



I wrote that in an improper manner. What I meant is that some
monetary exchanges should be restricted, such as bribing judges and
such.


Edited by RandalFlagg (11/20/03 01:10 PM)


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2124869 - 11/20/03 10:55 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Having a little bit of socialism is like being a little pregnant...
What does that mean? Are you implying that once you introduce any level of socialism it will ultimately evolve and give birth to communism? I would like to see examples to back that up.

OK, money is not infinite, niether are resources. (Resources are renewable, but only if the rate of renewal is not exceeded by the rate of consumption). Our currency may not be pegged to gold (Bretton Woods) anymore, thanks to Nixon, but there is only so much money out there.

You mention the Federal Reserve, do you not realize how much time and effort they spend trying to stop counterfitting? Why? Because the more money there is in circulation, the less value it retains. If it were to start raining 100 dollar bills all across the nation for two weeks straight, would you turn around and sell your car for $10,000 when it stopped? I don't think so. By the way, you don't exchange something for another thing of lesser value, you exchange for something of equal value. The value of the dollar represents its value as related to something fixed, although that certainly changes over time via inflation.

The point is not that people should be prohibited from accumulating wealth, that's rediculous. The incentive to wealth is what sparks innovation. However, when the wealthy band together and seek ways to control as much of the available resources and wealth as possible, I have a problem with that.

I'm not suggesting that those who accumulate wealth should have it unfairly taken away from them, just to give it to someone who's poor and lazy. I'm suggesting that those who benifit the most from the system our state safegaurds have the largest obligation to help maintain our state. If it weren't for America, they would not have been able to get rich, therefore they owe it to America to help keep our state functioning properly. That includes roads, schools, hospitals, etc. Of course the poor have to help foot the bill too, but not at a level which will render them destitue. It's not a matter of taxing the rich a larger percentage than the poor, its about taxing those with barely any money a smaller percentage than those with enormous amounts, since the poor need every dollar they can get just to get by.

True, America's poor are much better off than the poor in other nations. But then again, the poor in some nations are much better off than the poor in America. The fact is, the disparity between the poor and the rich continues to grow. This is fine, to a certain extent, if its just because the rich are making more and more money while the poor are staying the same, in terms of average income. However, that is not the case. Compare the average family income after removing the top 15% from the equation over the past ten years versus the rate of inflation. It's apparent that, not only are the rich getting richer, but the poor are getting poorer as well. That's because its a zero sum reality. True, you can print as much money as you want, but it only makes things more expensive when you do.

Please refrain from negative, profain responses. They are counter-productive to constructive dialogue.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
addict
Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 498
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2124940 - 11/20/03 11:36 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

havatampa said:
The point is not that people should be prohibited from accumulating wealth, that's rediculous. The incentive to wealth is what sparks innovation. However, when the wealthy band together and seek ways to control as much of the available resources and wealth as possible, I have a problem with that.




Why?

Quote:


I'm not suggesting that those who accumulate wealth should have it unfairly taken away from them, just to give it to someone who's poor and lazy. I'm suggesting that those who benifit the most from the system our state safegaurds have the largest obligation to help maintain our state.




Wouldn't a flat tax rate mean the more that you made, the more that you paid? Shouldn't that money go to the infrastructure (such as things you mention below) rather than to the poor? Isn't giving it to the poor a direct contradiction of what ytou say. Since, instead of it maintaining our state, it is just making the poor people get a bigger TV?

Quote:


If it weren't for America, they would not have been able to get rich, therefore they owe it to America to help keep our state functioning properly. That includes roads, schools, hospitals, etc.




Where does welfare come into this? Did welfare help make the rich people? And if so, wouldn't that mean that people can become rich who aren't rich, thus eliminating the hatred of the wealthy?

Quote:


Of course the poor have to help foot the bill too, but not at a level which will render them destitue.




Flat tax, every family pays the same percentage of their income. Of the examples you mentioned above (schools, roads and hospitals) only one of them truely is funded, for every single person, by the government. If I'm "rich" and I decide to send my children to private schools, guess what, I still pay my full share of taxes. If I'm "rich" and I have decent medical insuranec, why would I need to pay for the hospitals? As for roads, does my larger contribution (since my taxes aren't going for schools that I or my family are using, or hospitals that we are using) give me access to a better road system?
Quote:


It's not a matter of taxing the rich a larger percentage than the poor, its about taxing those with barely any money a smaller percentage than those with enormous amounts, since the poor need every dollar they can get just to get by.




"just getting by" is quite subjective. To a poor person, just getting by could be making this months payment on their old truck. To a rich person, it could be buying a new helicopter for their yacht. Neither are really necessary for life, who is to say which one is "just getting by" and which one isn't?
Quote:


True, America's poor are much better off than the poor in other nations. But then again, the poor in some nations are much better off than the poor in America.




Name a few nations...

Quote:


Please refrain from negative, profain responses. They are counter-productive to constructive dialogue.



I'm not sure if you were the person that flamed someone on another thread for spelling errors, and if you aren't, please accept my apology, but it's "profane".

The poor in this country are not starving to death, I'd say that should be the extent of the "Riches" job. Their is a minimum wage that is designed to be enough to pay bills and buy food. Their are food stamp programs for people that honestly can't afford food. Should the rich be required to give until their isn't any class distinction? If you say ye, it's because you "hate the wealthy"...


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2124949 - 11/20/03 11:42 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

This is a very interesting discussion. I've just read the last few pages, but here's my take on it (sorry if anybody already brought this up).

I think everybody should be perfectly free to do whatever (within the law) they want with their wealth. Like for example, giving it to your family when you die.

However, the big problem with this is that money equals political power. There is no denying this simple fact. For an extreme example, just take a look at the Bilderberg meetings. We have moved away (well, almost) from governmental systems where you inherit political power, and for a reason.

In my opinion, the only solution is to seperate political and economical interests. Don't accept political leaders with strong ties to large key industries. Politicians should pass bills that benefit industries because this in turn benefit society, not their or their friends pockets. Everybody should be able to go into politics though, and everybody got friends, so there are some practical problems with this, to say the least.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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