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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2110945 - 11/16/03 05:37 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I keep seeing it on the news baby. You telling me you've never seen shareholders angry at CEO salaries? Doesn't Fox news cover that stuff?

Shareholders in Qwest Communications (Q:NYSE - news - commentary - research - analysis) took a beating in 2001. The stock, which began the year at $40.88, finished at $14.13, a 65% decline

But CEO Joseph Nacchio didn't share that pain. The company raised his salary in 2001 to $1.2 million from 2000's $860,000. And his total compensation for the year came to $102 million, including $75 million from exercising stock options and $24 million in long-term incentives dating back to 1997. Oh, and the company awarded Nacchio an additional 7.3 million new options to keep him focused on running the company in the future.

Qwest points out, rightly, that a good portion of Nacchio's compensation for 2001 -- some of the stock options and the long-term incentives, for example -- is actually carried over from his earlier years with the company. And that this compensation should be measured against the stock's movement from its initial public offering price of a split-adjusted price of $5.50 in June 1997.

Trouble is, that's pretty much where the stock is trading now.

It just doesn't seem fair, does it? CEOs aren't supposed to make out like bandits while shareholders bleed.

Unfortunately, the unfairness isn't limited to Qwest. The compensation system at hundreds of companies provides massive rewards for CEOs and other high executives when times are flush -- and when times are tough.

On paper, of course, the system isn't supposed to work like this. The whole idea of annual bonuses, incentive stock grants and huge options awards to upper-level executives is that these rewards will align managers' and shareholders' interests. Managers will do well personally when they deliver the goods for shareholders. The more a pay package rises and falls with performance, the more incentives a manager will have to perform.

In reality, though, all too often the system seems to deliver higher pay no matter what the company's performance. For example, in 2000, a truly rotten year for U.S. business and shareholders, the median package of salary and bonus climbed by 10% to a little more than $1.8 million, according to a Mercer Human Resource Consulting/Wall Street Journal survey of 350 companies. .


http://www.thestreet.com/funds/jubak/10017595.html

Looks like shareholders don't even know what the CEO is paid most of the time:


Amid a welter of corporate fraud and mismanagement, CEOs are being criticized for excessive compensation, and not just in the U.S. Alcatel of France lost $4.5 billion last year, but its CEO, Serge Tchuruk, received a 9% pay raise. At Vodafone, Chris Gent took in an average of more than $7 million a year from 1999 to 2001, a period in which the company's share price fell by 43%. Jean-Marie Messier, Vivendi Universal's chairman, now departed, last year received $5 million in pay, an increase of 20%, plus stock options, as his company lost $13.3 billion.

These examples are just the tip of the iceberg. Shareholders want to know why top executives are richly rewarded while investors lose their shirts.

The four principal corporate ills that people are angry about are fraud, greed, secrecy and a lack of accountability. We'll let the police, the lawyers and lawmakers deal with the first. If the rules aren't tough enough, tighten them. As for greed, this is for shareholders to decide. If they want to pay a CEO $10 million or $100 million, it's for them to vote--assuming that they are given the choice.

But shareholder decisions must be based on the facts, and too often investors are kept in the dark about the pay of senior executives. Transparency and accountability go hand in hand. Just take a look at our table of the compensation of the CEOs of the world's 50 largest non-U.S. companies by market capitalization (see page 42). Of these, 7 reveal nothing about how much they pay their executives. Another 21 disclose a remuneration figure for the board of directors as a whole but don't say how much individual members receive (thus for the table, we had to estimate how much the CEO was paid).

And some countries are more secretive than others. It's hardly a coincidence that all but two of the Japanese companies on our list give no information about executive compensation. Or that 30 out of 33 companies included in Germany's Dax stock index don't reveal the pay of individual executives. .

http://www.forbes.com/global/2002/0902/032_print.html





--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2111320 - 11/16/03 11:33 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"The four principal corporate ills that people are angry about are fraud, greed, secrecy and a lack of accountability. We'll let the police, the lawyers and lawmakers deal with the first. If the rules aren't tough enough, tighten them. As for greed, this is for shareholders to decide. If they want to pay a CEO $10 million or $100 million, it's for them to vote--assuming that they are given the choice.

But shareholder decisions must be based on the facts, and too often investors are kept in the dark about the pay of senior executives. Transparency and accountability go hand in hand. Just take a look at our table of the compensation of the CEOs of the world's 50 largest non-U.S. companies by market capitalization (see page 42). Of these, 7 reveal nothing about how much they pay their executives. Another 21 disclose a remuneration figure for the board of directors as a whole but don't say how much individual members receive (thus for the table, we had to estimate how much the CEO was paid). "

:thumbup:


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Registered: 09/25/03
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2118776 - 11/18/03 12:32 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

THANK YOU for that article
i think that says a lot. i'd never seen it before, but probably a half dozen others just like it.. each mentioning different companies.
:O
OHNO MAYBE WE WERE ALL RIGHT
MAYBE EXECS ARE EVIL


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2119401 - 11/18/03 09:41 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well they sure as hell ain't Gandhi lets face it  :smile2:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2120264 - 11/18/03 03:11 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Many of those who do the bitching about the wealthy are those who will never amount to much and as such want government to steal from those who are successful.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2120763 - 11/18/03 06:12 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

LOL

It's funny when I hear poor people defending the rich.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2121163 - 11/18/03 09:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


It's funny when I hear poor people defending the rich.


It's even funnier to hear the poor lambast the rich for all of their
problems.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2121287 - 11/18/03 10:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

It's readily apparent from the responses of some (but not all) that they are consumed with envy and hatred for those who do well for themselves economically. Instead of asking the rational questions of how to emulate the wealth building strategies of the successful so those who are not yet so can become wealthy, or taking it upon themselves to build wealth so they can help out others, they resort to hate filled rhetoric and blame the rich for the plight of the poor, equating all success with criminality. Their answer is not to build wealth, but to steal it via the coercive mechanisms of the state and give it to those who did not earn it. It is a political expression of the school yard bully, a combination of sour grapes and common thuggery, masquerading as ideals favoring those who earn less money.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/09/02
Posts: 804
Loc: Dade County
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2121348 - 11/18/03 10:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

its amazing that the only thing on this continent with value is money.
amazing and sad

that was quite the generalization evolving.
"thuggery", is raping our planet and leaving nothing for the future.
do you care about the generation that survives you?
we see success only in money. cars, large houses. big gates.
wealth is not hard to acquire. i have met hundreds of rich stupid ass rednecks. i am not impressed by them or desire their excess.

anyone here realize that money has no true value?
we live in fictitious times.......................


we live in a natural world beyond our control, finite


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2121478 - 11/18/03 11:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


It's readily apparent from the responses of some (but not all) that
they are consumed with envy and hatred for those who do well for
themselves economically.

Their answer is not to build wealth, but to steal it via the coercive
mechanisms of the state and give it to those who did not earn it.


I agree with you. I am seeing more bitterness, bias, and innuendo
than legitamate arguments. And this attitude seems as if it is
coming more from hatred of the wealthy than concern for the poor.

The assumption seems to be that the wealthy took advantage of the
poor to get where they are. I am not saying that never happens...
of course it does. But, it is stupid to automatically assume
that it ALWAYS happens and to color every thought that comes into
your head with this bias. I can't help but shake my head when I
examine the ideology that has been built up around these ideas.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Registered: 09/25/03
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2121556 - 11/19/03 12:20 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

And what I find funny is the generalizing you are doing, thinking everyone who thinks that many, many CEO's are immoral thieves concerned more with their own pockets than the well-being of their company, into some kind of leftist tax-happy nut.
I don't EVER recalling saying the government should tax and redistribute.
I don't like the government either. Don't trust them any more than I would a CEO, which is to say, I wouldn't trust them even if we were in the same room and I just had my back turned.

No, I'll simply glare at them like the roadkill they are, and wish people like them didn't exist.

Anyway, yall talk about being rich like it's something everyone can do. NO, IT'S NOT. Wealth is finite. If most people were rich, inflation would eat them alive and all of a sudden, they'd be lower-middle-class again at best. durp!

Don't you people think that maybe rather than taking another $80 million bonus, it might be better to give 4,000 employees a $20,000 raise? I bet they might stop stealing from work for a few months. I bet they'd love that company forever in fact. Do they deserve it? Feh, probably not, but neither does the CEO.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2121625 - 11/19/03 12:49 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

*sigh*... face it: being a affluent suburban wasp bitch is about the most unhip thing in the world... "I'm from irvine" just sounds so fucking lame... there is no flava in the burbs.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2122349 - 11/19/03 10:04 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Their answer is not to build wealth, but to steal it via the coercive mechanisms of the state and give it to those who did not earn it. It is a political expression of the school yard bully, a combination of sour grapes and common thuggery, masquerading as ideals favoring those who earn less money.




Unfortunately, thats exactly the mentality held by many corporations today. When a manufacturer closes a factory and exports all the work to China, thats thuggery. And when the ex-factory workers re-enter the workforce as computer programmers only to have their new jobs exported to India, thats thuggery too. In both cases the products are sold at the same price as they were when they were manufactured in the US.

Quote:

Instead of asking the rational questions of how to emulate the wealth building strategies of the successful so those who are not yet so can become wealthy, or taking it upon themselves to build wealth so they can help out others, they resort to hate filled rhetoric and blame the rich for the plight of the poor, equating all success with criminality.




Thats prolly because in this case success is the result of criminality. However when they do it its called by some lame name like "structural adjustment" or "deregulation", as opposed to "looting" or "stealing". And they are backed up by the coercive mechanism of the state to boot.

EDIT: And when they commit simulated acts of terrorism to create grounds for cutting off civil liberties in order to avoid their cost, thats thuggery too.


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (11/19/03 10:12 AM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2122371 - 11/19/03 10:11 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Anyway, yall talk about being rich like it's something everyone can
do. NO, IT'S NOT.

If most people were rich, inflation would eat them alive and all of a
sudden, they'd be lower-middle-class again at best. durp!

In any economy it is not possible for everyone to be rich. Anybody
with a first-grader's grasp of economics realizes that.


Wealth is finite.

A common fallacy. I already said this in another thread, but I will
repeat it.

There are a bunch of things that make up wealth. Some are finite(
land, minerals), some are finite but renewable(trees, crops), and
some are unlimited in scope and value(human effort and ideas).
Wealth is created all of the time.


Don't you people think that maybe rather than taking another $80
million bonus, it might be better to give 4,000 employees a $20,000
raise?

Personally, I think giving a bunch of people in the company money
would increase productivity more. But, how a board of directors
chooses to compensate its people is none of my business unless I
am a shareholder.

A CEO of a public company does not determine what he gets paid; the
board of directors does. The board of directors is elected by the
shareholders. The shareholders are the private citizens who own the
stock in the company. If the CEO gets overpaid, it is the fault of
the board of directors and the shareholders.


And what I find funny is the generalizing you are doing, thinking
everyone who thinks that many, many CEO's are immoral thieves
concerned more with their own pockets than the well-being of their
company, into some kind of leftist tax-happy nut.


I have found that the people who decry being stereotyped the most,
are the ones who do everything in their power to fit the stereotype.

I have no doubt there are a lot of wealthy people who are not very
nice. But there are a lot of poor people who are not very nice
either. Immorality afflicts all races and classes. Unethical
behavior is not confined to the rich, as some people seem to
insinuate and harp upon.

I hear examples from the Left of CEO's doing something bad, yet
I hear nothing of the high violent crime rates among black males
in America. I hear nothing about the massive number of American
girls and women who become pregnant and who can't afford to support a
baby, so they then proceed to mooch off of us taxpayers. I hear
nothing of the fact that when we dump money into bad neighorhoods,
the people there don't appreciate it and then proceed to trash
everything we gave them.

Both the Left and the Right save their ire for select groups, and
then ignore when other people do bad things. This biased
prejudice is exactly what I was trying to bring attention to with
this thread.



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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2122768 - 11/19/03 01:01 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

thescientist said:
its amazing that the only thing on this continent with value is money.
amazing and sad



It's not amazing, it is incorrect.

Quote:

that was quite the generalization evolving.



That's quite a reading comprehension problem you have there, thescientist. I stated, "It's readily apparent from the responses of some (but not all)..."

Quote:

"thuggery", is raping our planet and leaving nothing for the future.



This action is not the sole domain of the wealthy (if that is your implication). Try driving through Mexico and look at how the POOR trash the planet.

Quote:

do you care about the generation that survives you?



Yes, that is why I support the repeal of the death tax. That is why I am against legislation which destroys the economic opporturtunities and incentives for others to build better lives for themselves.

Quote:

we see success only in money. cars, large houses. big gates.



Aren't you contradicting yourself? At the beginning of your little rant you stated, "the only thing on this continent with value is money." When you use the term 'we' who are you referring to? There are many who do not share your opinion, I am one of them.

Quote:

wealth is not hard to acquire.



That's why some insist on stealing it through taxation. It's very easy to aquire that way.

Quote:

i have met hundreds of rich stupid ass rednecks. i am not impressed by them or desire their excess.



Not that I believe you but, how very intolerant of you. Do you think that others should have to live their lives by your standards?

Quote:

anyone here realize that money has no true value?



Well, Pinky and I (and probably Mushmaster) have touched on this several times. Money is a medium of exchange. Value is subjective. If I go into a liquor store and exchange a $5.00 bill for a six pack of beer, it is obvious that I value the six pack of beer more than the $5.00 bill. It is also obvious that the kind merchant values the $5.00 bill more than the six pack of beer.

Quote:

we live in fictitious times.......................



Interesting that you should say this, perhaps a reduction in the consumption of mind altering substances will help you to get a better grasp of reality.

Quote:

we live in a natural world beyond our control,



Some things are within our control, some are not.

Quote:

... finite



Unknown.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleLallafa
p_g monocle
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Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 2,598
Loc: underbelly
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2122792 - 11/19/03 01:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

there is a difference between someone who has worked hard for long periods of time to acquire wealth, and someone who has done nothing to rationalize their prosperity, besides being born or married into riches.


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Lallafa]
    #2122813 - 11/19/03 01:16 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I wish I was born into or married into wealth. Why should I have anything against those who have come into their wealth this way?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleLallafa
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Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 2,598
Loc: underbelly
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2122832 - 11/19/03 01:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

i didt say you should.


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Lallafa]
    #2122926 - 11/19/03 01:58 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"There are a bunch of things that make up wealth. Some are finite(
land, minerals), some are finite but renewable(trees, crops), and
some are unlimited in scope and value(human effort and ideas).
Wealth is created all of the time."

Money is an extension of an allocation of a resource, a symbol meant to be equated with a certain amount of something tangible and finite. You may not see wealth as a zero-sum reality, but it is. Not everyone can simultaneously be wealthy. In order for one person to gain wealth, with few exceptions, someone else must not be getting that wealth. That's what sets equilibrium pricing in a competitive market.

The problem with unrestrained capitalism is that it enables those with wealth to spin out of control in their accumulation. The more money you have, the more money you can make, and so on and so on and so on. But there's only so much money out there. If not, it would not retain value.

Can there be no compromise between laissez-faire and socialism?


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2123047 - 11/19/03 02:42 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

havatampa said:
Money is an extension of an allocation of a resource, a symbol meant to be equated with a certain amount of something tangible and finite.



Wrong, money is a medium of exchange. In order for it to be useful it must be generally accepted as such. Since all 'modern' currencies are currently fiat currencies, there is nothing tangible and finite that these currencies are pegged to. If a currency is on a gold standard (for instance), there would be validity to your statement.

Quote:

You may not see wealth as a zero-sum reality, but it is.



Apparently you are ignorant of human creativity and the concept of value.

Quote:

Not everyone can simultaneously be wealthy. In order for one person to gain wealth, with few exceptions, someone else must not be getting that wealth.



Bullshit. Again, people create wealth. Value is subjective. When a person purchases something, he is exchanging something of less value to HIM than that which he is receiving. When a person sells something, he is exchanging something of less value to HIM than that which he is receiving. Both parties gain from the exchange based upon their personal valuation of the items being exchanged.

Quote:

The problem with unrestrained capitalism is that it enables those with wealth to spin out of control in their accumulation.



This makes no sense... unless you mean that those 'superior' individuals such as yourself do not have control over the actions of their fellow man in their misguided quest to create utopia.

Quote:

But there's only so much money out there.



Tell that to the Federal Reserve... you apparently do not know what you are rambling about.

Quote:

If not, it would not retain value.



Well, seeing as the currency has been greatly inflated over the years, it has LOST value, resulting in the inevitable price inflation. Don't believe me? Check out the prices of homes today versus 30 years ago.

Quote:

Can there be no compromise between laissez-faire and socialism?



Having a little socialism is like being a little pregnant.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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