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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2107520 - 11/14/03 07:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

i'm afraid not. that may be the practice of a very few firms, but in the market at large, in order to generate revenue, you must create wealth.




Who says any revenue is actually being generated as opposed to merely acquired?? I should also remind you that only a "very few firms" control the bulk of the "the market" in this country.

Quote:

corporations also cannot steal without some kind of governmental interference, or lack of appropriate policing, in the market. as limited as the situation you're referring to is, if the government would stick to doing it's job, it wouldn't exist at all.




Correct. And thats exactly the situation that exists under the junta, whose corporate liasons are well known and documented. Even before the junta, one could argue that our government functioned similarly to that of Iran or the USSR, that being as a hit squad for a tiny circle of financial elites known as the "central comittee" in the USSR and the "Guardian Council" in Iran. In the US its a consortium of military, prison, oil, and media oligopolists which has not been codified into the government as in the other cases.

edit: I forgot to include the pharmaceutical companies in the US ruling council (or whatever you want to call it).


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (11/14/03 08:29 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2107584 - 11/14/03 07:56 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Who says any revenue is actually being generated as opposed to merely acquired??

corporations acquire wealth by exchanging the goods or services they create with the public. now... the economic value of something is determined by the things for which it can be voluntarily exchanged. therefore, the revenue they bring in is equal to the goods and services they create.

you can go on and on about how corporations are in bed with the government, and indeed they may be, but the fact is that most of the market is non-coercive. the few cases where there is actual coercion taking place in the market are only because the government has either overstepped its bounds or shirked in its duties.

i understand what you're trying to say but its relevence is rather limited in this discussion.


Edited by mushmaster (11/14/03 07:57 PM)


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2107763 - 11/14/03 09:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"execs are paid to run a company. if they suck at it, they get fired, and that doesn't help them make any money. they do a job, just like anyone else. i don't think you understand how the management of a corporation operates or how they are selected."

Look at Enron. It's just the biggest and most public case of the high-level exec's totally raping a company into the ground to line their own pockets. It happens ALL THE TIME, just generally on not quite so large of a scale.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2107850 - 11/14/03 09:49 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Who gave them the means to take flight school, fly to the US, live in
the US, plan, etc?


Annapurna1 was insinuating that corporations were to blame for 9/11.
I merely said the truth; that Islamic extremists were the ones
who did it. "Corporations" seem to be the scapegoated boogeymen
for all liberals to scream about, even when these entities had
nothing to do with the tragedy in question.

Who gave them the means to take flight lessons? The terrorist
financers who were funding these terrorists. Neither the American
government nor corporations had anything to do with it.

Who allowed them into the U.S. to live here, and to plan?
U.S. immigration did. The only way to keep all people who want to do
bad things out is to close the borders to everyone. We would
also have to conduct surveillance on every Muslim or Arab male
in this country. If that happened liberals would scream about how
racist America was.



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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2107870 - 11/14/03 09:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Another quirk of liberals that I have noticed: They are incapable of
giving any type of positive comment in regards to America, and they
are incapable of giving any type of negative comment in regards to
it's enemies.

So, when Islamic terrorists kill 3,000 people, they scream, "
American intelligence failed!!". Yet they don't say a word
about the disgusting actions of 19 men who decided to murder
thousands of innocents. I am very critical of this country
and it's foreign policy, but I don't fall prey to cliche
attitudes that guide what I think. These "It's always America's
fault" comments are knee-jerk ideological garbage.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2107894 - 11/14/03 10:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Bullshit.



Show me PROOF.

Show me proof that corporations were involved in the planning,
execution, and coverup of the September 11 attacks. I am open to any
idea as long as it is backed up by indisputable evidence.

Please give me proof and not hackneyed left-wing conspiracy
theory garbage.




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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2107917 - 11/14/03 10:09 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


A man gets his education, goes to work on the board of a company, and
all of the sudden something is wrong with that?"


Well, usually, yes.

Because he endevours to rape those that actually are DOING work for
the company out of their money. He endevours to rape those who invest
money in their company of it.

In short, steal steal steal and run. Most high exec's care only for
their own pocket and will destroy anything and anyone to pad their
own wallet.


You are using a few examples of corrupt CEO's to justify an opinion
that all CEO's are evil. That is stupidity. Unless you know each
and every CEO in this country and how he operates his business,
you have no right to make idiotic assumptions like this.


"Why do they do that? Because us consumers in advanced countries want
things to be as cheap as possible."


That's a bit of a corporate cop-out.
Sure, it's so the price can stay low.. but the price could certainly
be lower if they weren't paying their CEO $100 million a year salary,
with another $100 million in bonuses, and another $250 million in
stock options.


The reason they are paid so much is because their jobs are hard.
Running a cash register doesn't require much skill or effort and
that is why it isn't compensated well. Running a company in
a competitive market IS difficult and requires massive amounts
of effort and skill. That is why they are paid well. And if a
board of directors is stupid enough to give somebody millions of
dollars who then proceeds to run the company into the ground, then
that is their own damn fault.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2108108 - 11/14/03 11:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

Bullshit.



Show me PROOF.

Show me proof that corporations were involved in the planning,
execution, and coverup of the September 11 attacks. I am open to any
idea as long as it is backed up by indisputable evidence.

Please give me proof and not hackneyed left-wing conspiracy
theory garbage.




Here's the PROOF, right out of the horse's mouth:

Quote:

Rebuilding America's Defenses, p63:

Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event ? like a
new Pearl Harbor.




(The above was written exactly one year before 9/11)
What is meant by "revolutionary change" is explained in the Statement of Principles (!!signatories!!). Also worth considering:

* The junta's blatant interference with the 9/11 investigation
* The hijacker's passports were displayed on TV in pristine condition within an hour after the north tower fell.

Unfortunately, nobody will ever find a smoking gun; but that doesnt mean that the gun was never there...As far as corporate involvement, one need look no further than Dick Cheney.


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2108162 - 11/15/03 12:06 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"You are using a few examples of corrupt CEO's to justify an opinion
that all CEO's are evil. That is stupidity. Unless you know each
and every CEO in this country and how he operates his business,
you have no right to make idiotic assumptions like this."

There's many examples of corruption you can dig up, there's just recently been a few really big ones on the news.
About 5 years ago, the same thing happened to the company my dad worked for.
Last year, the company I was working for, the same thing was in the process of happening. Oh and also, that particular company hid roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of all their inventory from the gov't, by shifting it around to avoid inventory counts. That's tax evasion bucko. But yes, they're in the process of running things into the ground for their own personal benefit.
It's happening all around you man. It always has been.

I'm not saying any schmoe could be a CEO.. I'm just saying they're corrupt thieves.
I mean, seriously dude. We all know government is corrupt. On the national level, I'm sure we'd agree that ALL elected officials are at least SOMEWHAT evil. There's a certain amount of lying, back-scratching and whatnot that you've GOT to do to get to that level of power. Corporate America's no different, except there's less lying (because you don't need to secure votes from the general public) and more back-scratching (because you do need more approval from those in power).
Seriously man, don't delude yourself for one minute that anyone can make it to that level of power by being an honest, fair, kind-hearted, unselfish, generous person. It's not compatable with qualities that are looked for in a CEO.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2108307 - 11/15/03 01:41 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

the advantage that some corporations may come away with from some kind of warfare is not that they are in a position to steal wealth

Come on mush, look at Iraq. They're breaking every international law in the book by privatising everything they can get their hands on. It's robbery - pure and simple.

execs are paid to run a company. if they suck at it, they get fired, and that doesn't help them make any money

You want to see the size of the golden handshakes these directors get for running companies into the ground. Recession and downturns in company profits has had zero effect on the enormous wage rises and pay-offs these people award themselves - on the contrary, as performance has dropped, directors payoffs have kept increasing. Sucking at your job these days really doesn't matter for these people.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2108407 - 11/15/03 02:49 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Mushmonkey said:
I'm not saying any schmoe could be a CEO.. I'm just saying they're corrupt thieves.



If you mean all of them, you are very ignorant.

Quote:

Seriously man, don't delude yourself for one minute that anyone can make it to that level of power by being an honest, fair, kind-hearted, unselfish, generous person. It's not compatable with qualities that are looked for in a CEO.



Seriously, don't delude yourself into thinking you have all the answers. That you know the hearts and actions of people you've NEVER met, NEVER worked for and know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT. You are lacking in knowledge and experience to make such a broad and unfounded generalization. Tell us, how many CEOs have you hired? How do you know what qualities are looked for? You have been on the board of directors of how many companies?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2108549 - 11/15/03 04:16 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

So although he might be wrong, he could well be right...


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2108665 - 11/15/03 07:45 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The reason they are paid so much is because their jobs are hard.

As hard as those 13 year old girls slaving in their factories in south east asia? How many CEO's do you think could work as hard as the average 13 year old girl in one of those places? Do you think Bill Gates would keep up? Seriously? My guess is the first time one of the guards slapped him in the face for slacking and broke his glasses he'd bust into tears and suffer complete mental, physical and emotional collapse within 1-3 weeks.

a competitive market IS difficult and requires massive amounts of effort and skill

As hard as anyone else in the company works? Do managers have as much skill as the average technical guy for example? Do they really put in anymore effort than anyone else in the company? Enough effort to justify paying themselves hundreds of times more than anyone else? Not to mention the free cars, free perks, long lunches, entertaining business friends on expensive days out all courtesy of the company?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2108675 - 11/15/03 07:58 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The reason they are paid so much is because their jobs are hard.
Running a cash register doesn't require much skill or effort and
that is why it isn't compensated well. Running a company in
a competitive market IS difficult and requires massive amounts
of effort and skill. That is why they are paid well. And if a
board of directors is stupid enough to give somebody millions of
dollars who then proceeds to run the company into the ground, then
that is their own damn fault.




Running a cash register requires alot more skill and effort than rubber stamping a few papers and playing golf all day...which is all those pricks do, along with mass-firing a productive workforce to loot their incomes...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2108802 - 11/15/03 10:21 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)


The reason they are paid so much is because their jobs are hard.


As hard as those 13 year old girls slaving in their factories in south east asia?


Let me rephrase the word "hard". When I said the job of managing
a large company was hard, it obviously is not physically taxing.
What someone's labor is worth is determined by how difficult the
job is to do. Anybody is capable of sitting in a factory and sewing
a button on a shirt. Not everybody has the brains to run a
company in a competitive environment. These people are paid
well for doing something that most people are not capable of doing.


How many CEO's do you think could work as hard as the average 13 year
old girl in one of those places? Do you think Bill Gates would keep
up? Seriously? My guess is the first time one of the guards slapped
him in the face for slacking and broke his glasses he'd bust into
tears and suffer complete mental, physical and emotional collapse
within 1-3 weeks.


Alex, you continually harp upon the conditions of these foreign
factories to me. Yet, I have repeatedly said that I don't think
American companies should be doing business in countries that don't
allow free elections. If these people are allowed to elect
leaders who can enact legislation, then they can affect their
working conditions.


a competitive market IS difficult and requires massive amounts of
effort and skill


As hard as anyone else in the company works? Do managers have as much
skill as the average technical guy for example? Do they really put in
anymore effort than anyone else in the company?


They might not put forth more effort, but they put forth more
skill in a much more demanding job.

By the way, I was related to a CEO of a company. An eighty hour work
week was a "light" week for him.


Enough effort to justify paying themselves hundreds of times more
than anyone else?


They themselves don't determine what they are paid. The board of
directors does. The board of directors is elected by the
shareholders. The shareholders are the citizens who hold stock in
the company.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2108821 - 11/15/03 10:31 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Running a cash register requires alot more skill and effort than
rubber stamping a few papers and playing golf all day...which is all
those pricks do, along with mass-firing a productive workforce to
loot their incomes...


You call them pricks. Have you ever met a CEO? Have you met the
majority of them? How can you claim to know that they are assholes
or not? You are basing your view of them on a few highly publicized
cases and warping it to fit your pejudices.

Your bias is unbelievable. It clouds your view of reality.

To show the hypocrisy that taints your thinking, think on this
for a second: Think of the total percentage of CEO's who have been
indicted for wrong-doing and corruption. And then think of
the total percentage of black males who have been indicted for
committing crimes. I think you will find that the percentage
of black males who commit crimes is much higher than the percentage
of CEO's who commit crimes. You demonize the entire upper
management population of America, but of course you would never
demonize the entire black race, because that wouldn't be politically
correct.

I mentioned this in another message: I used to be related to a CEO
who easily worked 80-100 hours a week. He didn't play golf and
goof off. He worked hard, he was good at what he did, and he did
something that many people are not capable of doing.



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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2108843 - 11/15/03 10:45 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I think it should be perfectly clear from the other posts here which "pricks" im talking about. Your forgetting that only a tiny minority of CEOs are in "the entire upper management population of America"; and those are the ones that are looting out the masses, starting wars, etc. that really are pricks.


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2108856 - 11/15/03 11:01 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The reason they are paid so much is because their jobs are hard.

As hard as those 13 year old girls slaving in their factories in south east asia? How many CEO's do you think could work as hard as the average 13 year old girl in one of those places? Do you think Bill Gates would keep up? Seriously? My guess is the first time one of the guards slapped him in the face for slacking and broke his glasses he'd bust into tears and suffer complete mental, physical and emotional collapse within 1-3 weeks.

the reason they are paid so much is not because their job is difficult, but because the work they do is more valuable, and while just about anyone can sew a soccerball together, there are very few who are qualified to run a large corporation.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2108863 - 11/15/03 11:06 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seriously man, don't delude yourself for one minute that anyone can make it to that level of power by being an honest, fair, kind-hearted, unselfish, generous person. It's not compatable with qualities that are looked for in a CEO




I don't think anyone can make it in this society, period, by being honest, fair, kind-hearted, and unselfish.

It goes for the lower levels of employment, too. Go to any sales floor and see who makes more money, gets more praise from the management, and is more likely to get promoted: the honest, non-pushy, laid back salesmen who is truly looking out for customers, or the shady, pushy, amped up salesman who misleads customers.

every sales situation I've worked in (guitars, car audio, electronics, etc...) it was always the latter salesman. Most consumers have reacted to this by becoming more submissive, as per Timothy Leary's Interpersonal Circumplex. It really makes me grind my teeth when customers walk into a store and ask the salesman for advice, treating him like a trusted friend the whole time. Most people would rather let a salesman think for them (and rip them off) then do a little research from a trustworthy independant source.

But yeah... you cant survive by being totally altruistic. Even preachers have to collect tithes.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2108864 - 11/15/03 11:07 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Further, the process of transformation,
even if it brings revolutionary change, is
likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event &#8211; like a
new Pearl Harbor


??? That is not proof of anything. It is merely a statement
of fact.

From what I saw on their website these guys are interested in
overhauling the American military, ensuring American interests
abroad, and promoting democracy.

It is a simple fact that if a catastrophic event happens,
this galvanizes people to meet that threat. This concept is not
new and has been around for a long time. Just because they
mentioned something that is patently true does not mean THEY,
any government officials, or any corporation officials were involved
in the 9/11 attacks.


* The junta's blatant interference with the 9/11 investigation


Is not proof of involvement in the 9/11 attacks. Maybe they are
trying to hide something, but you have NO clue what they are trying
to hide. It could be allegations about the Saudis funding terror or
it could be about threats that were not taken seriously and that
ended up being true. It could be anything. You don't know and I
don't know, so don't jump to stupid conclusions.


The hijacker's passports were displayed on TV in pristine condition
within an hour after the north tower fell.


Think about this for a second. According to cell-phone calls from
passengers on the plane, the hijackers were Arab. So airport
officials checked all of the men on the plane registry who were
Arab. They then notified officials who looked them up. Their
passport pictures were found and given to a news agency. In todays
modern world with fast information retrieval at our fingertips,
it is not unreasonable to assume that the hijacker's identities
and pictures were found and broadcast very quickly.


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