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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/09/02
Posts: 804
Loc: Dade County
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Evolving]
    #2101772 - 11/13/03 12:53 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

when you create a computer program you are ACQUIRING wealth not creating it. the money you obtain already existed. It is impossible for an activity to produce more energy than it consumes.

Think about the law of conservation.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2101919 - 11/13/03 01:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

thescientist writes:

when you create a computer program you are ACQUIRING wealth not creating it.

You do not understand the concept of wealth.

the money you obtain already existed.

Money is not wealth. Money is a medium of exchange.

It is impossible for an activity to produce more energy than it consumes.

Energy is not wealth. Energy is used to create wealth.

Think about the law of conservation.

If you are referring to the law of conservation of energy, it is completely irrelevant to the concept of wealth.

pinky


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/09/02
Posts: 804
Loc: Dade County
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Phred]
    #2102642 - 11/13/03 05:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Pronunciation: 'welth also 'weltth
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English welthe, from wele weal
Date: 13th century
1 obsolete : WEAL, WELFARE
2 : abundance of valuable material possessions or resources
3 : abundant supply : PROFUSION
4 a : all property that has a money value or an exchangeable value b : all material objects that have economic utility; especially : the stock of useful goods having economic value in existence at any one time <national wealth>



anyone want to explain how they can the change or create "abundance of resources"

you'll have to argue this one w/ webster. i believe i already presented the facts

conservation would apply to "abundance of of resourses"

im done here. great topics in this forum guys


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2105598 - 11/14/03 09:42 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I think alot of it stems from the business paradigm pushed on us by Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman from the University of Chicago:

Quote:

The only social responsibility a company has is to its shareholders




What this means is that business is now totally absolved from its social responsibility to produce new wealth. Rather, younger (for the most part) and criminally-minded directorates now focus their efforts on looting out the population to consolidate existing wealth. In the past, one could have argued that the rich were rich by virtue of them having created value; but this is obviously no longer the case (if it ever was; hence the name "robber baron"). As such, there is a very legitimate complaint against the looters.

Nixon halted the redemption of US dollars in gold specifically to force the US into this paradigm. The downward pressure on wages that the paradigm necessarily entails bolsters the value of the dollar against the Euro.



--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2105895 - 11/14/03 10:54 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The only social responsibility a company has is to its shareholders

What this means is that business is now totally absolved from its social responsibility to produce new wealth.

the only way for a company to peacefully profit is to create new wealth. it cannot gain anything without offering something in exchange. as long as it is exchanging things for what they are worth (transactions are voluntary), it cannot increase its own wealth without creating and offering to the rest of the community something else of equal wealth.

Rather, younger (for the most part) and criminally-minded directorates now focus their efforts on looting out the population to consolidate existing wealth.

impossible without coercion.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2106065 - 11/14/03 11:36 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The only social responsibility a company has is to its shareholders

What this means is that business is now totally absolved from its social responsibility to produce new wealth.

the only way for a company to peacefully profit is to create new wealth. it cannot gain anything without offering something in exchange. as long as it is exchanging things for what they are worth (transactions are voluntary), if cannot increase its own wealth without creating and offering to the rest of the community that same amount of wealth.




The key word is peacefully. These corporations and the ppl that run them gave us 9/11, Afghanistan, and Iraq, just to name a few. In my book they are not men of peace.

Quote:

Rather, younger (for the most part) and criminally-minded directorates now focus their efforts on looting out the population to consolidate existing wealth.

impossible without coercion.




such as the USA-PATRIOT act.


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2106099 - 11/14/03 11:42 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

you're not making any sense. i don't think you understand the principles i'm talking about.

a corporation, in order to turn a profit, must create wealth.

now... al-qaeda is not a corporation and neither is congress, but let's assume for a moment that what you said is true and 9-11 and the patriot act were brought to us by evil corporations seeking profit...

how did these actions enable them to sell their goods to people for more than people would voluntarily exchange for them?


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2106158 - 11/14/03 11:59 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The corporate interests in Iraq and Afghanistan are common knowledge. Granted, it hasnt all panned out; but that was the intention nonetheless. And neither would have been possible without 9/11, which im firmly convinced was a Reichstag Fire.

As for the PATRIOT act, you answered that question yourself: the acquisition of wealth without new production (ie looting, aka "structural adjustment") is not possible without coercion.


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2106720 - 11/14/03 02:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


These corporations and the ppl that run them gave us 9/11


The people who gave us "9/11" were Islamic extremists, not
corporations.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2106904 - 11/14/03 03:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Who gave them the means to take flight school, fly to the US, live in the US, plan, etc?


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OnlineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2107155 - 11/14/03 05:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Liberals who resist toughening immigrant laws, or enforcing the one we have now.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2107218 - 11/14/03 05:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Bullshit. They cant even get the current batch of laws straight. These are not hard concepts. When they can do what the laws say they should be doing effectively and efficiently and it doesnt work, we will think about adopting some new laws.

The system is inherantly fucked, multiple people dropped the ball on this intelligence.


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OnlineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2107259 - 11/14/03 05:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

How do you figure corporations helped the 9-11 hijackers exactly?


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2107299 - 11/14/03 05:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The corporate interests in Iraq and Afghanistan are common knowledge. Granted, it hasnt all panned out; but that was the intention nonetheless. And neither would have been possible without 9/11, which im firmly convinced was a Reichstag Fire.

the vast majority of the "corporate interests" you speak of represent the rights to create new wealth in specific industries. the companies are still creating wealth.

you didn't answer my question either. if companies are to profit without either stealing or selling things for more than they're worth (both entail coercion), they must create new wealth equal to any profit they are to make.

for the most part, the advantage that some corporations may come away with from some kind of warfare is not that they are in a position to steal wealth, but they are in a very good position to create new wealth.

perhaps warfare does allow some corporations the oppurtunity to forcefully take some wealth that they did not make for themselves. this an extremely limited aspect of the market overall, and certainly not enough to support the claim that, "business is now totally absolved from its social responsibility to produce new wealth."

in order to generate revenues, firms must generate new wealth. the only exception to this rule, and it's a rather small exception, is when they've stolen something or are selling something for more than it's worth (both of which involve specific coercive action... and note that it is almost always with the help of government).


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2107324 - 11/14/03 05:59 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

These corporations and the ppl that run them gave us 9/11


The people who gave us "9/11" were Islamic extremists, not
corporations.




Bullshit.

Just ask yourself the question: "who has had the most to gain from 9/11?" if you guys are really that lame i'll give you a couple of clues: its not bin Laden and its not Saddam Hussein either. Now ask yourself the question: "what interests do they represent?" another clue: one of them was CEO of Haliburton, which has reaped (or at least intends to reap) windfalls from the invasion of Iraq.

I dont necessarily dispute the role of Islamic extremism; the hijackers might have really believed that they were doing the work of god. But the sad fact is that they were doing the work of the junta (no difference in their minds).


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2107338 - 11/14/03 06:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

other than the fact that 9-11 allowed our current administration to seize more power and caused its approval ratings to skyrocket, do you have any evidence for your claims there?

there is much more to establishing guilt than establishing a motive.

and why are we talking about 9-11 now? if you'll read the last post i made, maybe you'll see that this talk of iraq, afghanistan, and 9-11 is rather irrelevant to what we had been discussing anyway.

but just for the hell of it... who exactly orchestrated 9-11, and why?


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2107378 - 11/14/03 06:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"A man gets his education, goes to work on the board of a company, and all of the sudden something is wrong with that?"

Well, usually, yes.
Because he endevours to rape those that actually are DOING work for the company out of their money. He endevours to rape those who invest money in their company of it.
In short, steal steal steal and run. Most high exec's care only for their own pocket and will destroy anything and anyone to pad their own wallet.

And that good sir is evil.

"Why do
they do that? Because us consumers in advanced countries want
things to be as cheap as possible."

That's a bit of a corporate cop-out.
Sure, it's so the price can stay low.. but the price could certainly be lower if they weren't paying their CEO $100 million a year salary, with another $100 million in bonuses, and another $250 million in stock options.
That'll jack up your product price quite a bit.

"On the other hand, a new factory opening is cause for celebration. I find it interesting how so many people here refer to the process of providing jobs for people in undeveloped countries as "exploitation". I can guarantee you the workers here lucky enough to snag one of those jobs don't feel exploited -- they are ecstatic. "

Also a point I've made before, that a lot of people can't seem to get a handle on.. from here in the US, it's pure exploitation.. but a lot of times maybe it's helping out those countries more than not being there. US minimum wage in some countries would make you rich ;p


People who work hard to EARN their money, I admire.
But often, the richest have NOT EARNED their money, but rather more have stolen it from those who are working, by means of their superior positioning on a corporate ladder.
"Gee, I can raise YOUR salary.. and you can raise MINE.. well, I think you've been doing a fine job. TRIPLE THE PAY! O, you think that was a brilliant move on my part? why thank you. I accept a tripling of my pay, as well. Hur hur hur!"

Looting the company coffers for your own selfish, greedy benefit at the expense of the true workers.
that's evil.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2107416 - 11/14/03 06:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Because he endevours to rape those that actually are DOING work for the company out of their money. He endevours to rape those who invest money in their company of it.

unless he is an embezzler, this statement is false.

Most high exec's care only for their own pocket and will destroy anything and anyone to pad their own wallet.

execs are paid to run a company. if they suck at it, they get fired, and that doesn't help them make any money. they do a job, just like anyone else. i don't think you understand how the management of a corporation operates or how they are selected.

Sure, it's so the price can stay low.. but the price could certainly be lower if they weren't paying their CEO $100 million a year salary, with another $100 million in bonuses, and another $250 million in stock options.

if the CEO is sucking more from a company than the shareholders and directers think he is worth, he will not keep his position. goods are sold at the market value. the amount a CEO is making has nothing to do with it. the pay that goes to the management is money that would otherwise be kept as profit and reinvested. cutting the pay rate of the management (if it were possible) would not result in a cut in the price of the product.

Also a point I've made before, that a lot of people can't seem to get a handle on.. from here in the US, it's pure exploitation.. but a lot of times maybe it's helping out those countries more than not being there. US minimum wage in some countries would make you rich ;p

i take it you don't read very well...

But often, the richest have NOT EARNED their money, but rather more have stolen it from those who are working, by means of their superior positioning on a corporate ladder.

yes, i suppose that it would be advantageous to go down the the factory floor and select a random laborer to run the company, seeing that it's such a simple task unworthy of the compensation delivered...

Looting the company coffers for your own selfish, greedy benefit at the expense of the true workers.

you don't have a clue how corporations, or the market, operates. good day.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: ]
    #2107461 - 11/14/03 06:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

you didn't answer my question either. if companies are to profit without either stealing or selling things for more than they're worth (both entail coercion), they must create new wealth equal to any profit they are to make.




The whole point im trying to make is that they are stealing: the new business model is simply to acquire wealth without (necessarily) producing it. But when they steal its called structural adjustment or some similarly cynical name. (The link deals mostly with third-world countries, but it happens here to; ie. "rightsizing", "rightshoring", "deregulation", etc).

Quote:

for the most part, the advantage that some corporations may come away with from some kind of warfare is not that they are in a position to steal wealth, but they are in a very good position to create new wealth.




Then why is big oil trying to steal all of Iraq via the junta??


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Anonymous

Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2107475 - 11/14/03 06:59 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

the new business model is simply to acquire wealth without (necessarily) producing it.

i'm afraid not. that may be the practice of a very few firms, but in the market at large, in order to generate revenue, you must create wealth.

corporations also cannot steal without some kind of governmental interference, or lack of appropriate policing, in the market. as limited as the situation you're referring to is, if the government would stick to doing it's job, it wouldn't exist at all.


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