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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy
    #2094160 - 11/11/03 10:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

A lot of the arguments that occur in this forum seem to be boil
down to one side who argues that people should keep what they earn,
and the other side that argues that people should give a lot of
what they earn so that a minimum standard of living is achieved
by an entire population.

I tend to fall into the first group. But, I can understand how
people fall into the second group based on concern for their
fellow man. The funny thing is is that instead of seeing concern
for their fellow man as being their motivation, I see a lot of
hatred, suspicion, and contempt of people who are successful.
I get the feeling that a lot of people on this board want to
punish people who happen to have been successful. I can sense the
bitterness and anger in their posts when they speak of people who
have ammassed wealth. Has anybody else noticed this "class
warfare" attitude?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2094182 - 11/11/03 10:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I have nothing against the rich(except that they generally tend to vote Republican). My parents happen to be rather well-off themselves. I just think that the poor shouldn't be expected to pay as much taxes as the rich since they have less money to live off of. I also happen to believe that there should be a financial safety net for those who are unable to work or to find work. Obviously there are those who genuinely hate the rich, and I am firmly against this attitude.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2094292 - 11/11/03 11:02 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I've known a lot of independantly wealthy people in my life and never had any problem,s with them. People who built their businesses from dreams and hard work and ingenuity. Those are some really good people.

I've also known a lot of worthless heirs to vast fortunes who have entire teams working for them for the purpose of mainting their wealth through banking and investment. I've known a lot of corporate schills who got paid high salaries to forgoe human decency and abdicate responsibility in the course of their jobs. And i've had to deal with a lot of evil corporations that act as souless machines. I'm not a big fan of organizations in general, and I think that corportions can be just as dangerous as the government.

I believe that the people in the first category should keep what they earn, but people in the second category should be crippled lest their ignorance and corruption do too much damage to society. I'm a lot less worried about poor people and welfare than I am about the power of corporations and their ability to fuck with my rights.

I don't hate wealth if it is earned, deserved, and constructive. But i dont appreciate the existence of wealth in the absence of intelligence and basic ethics, a condition which i find rampant in America.

EDIT:

I guess thats the difference between me and most hardcore capitalists: I dont make much of a distinction between public and private organizations. To me, they are all fucking evil.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


Edited by DoctorJ (11/11/03 11:06 PM)


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2094405 - 11/11/03 11:32 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Your post sums up most of my feelings on the subject.

The thing that is so annoying to me personally, is all these ultra millionaires and companies with all this extra money sitting around doing nothing, that are so reluctant to part with any of it. (Been looking for funding to start up a company and its very frustrating). They all want to see immediate gauranteed profits, refuse to take any risks, etc.  There is so much that could be done, so many people could be employed, with all that unused capital.  Instead they spend it on a third yacht or something lame like that.  You know the type. People who never make a noise when they fart.  :rolleyes: 


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man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: pattern]
    #2094481 - 11/11/03 11:56 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

yes, there is a serious lack of genuine entreprenuers, ingenuity, and venture capitalism these days. everyone wants a sure thing.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2094667 - 11/12/03 12:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I've known a lot of independantly wealthy people in my life and never had any problem,s with them. People who built their businesses from dreams and hard work and ingenuity. Those are some really good people.




I totally agree. Alot of these people get teh shaft on their huge amounts of taxes they have to pay, and still, through the kindness of their heart, help "lower class" people out. Donating blood, food, gifts, etc.

Quote:


I've also known a lot of worthless heirs to vast fortunes who have entire teams working for them for the purpose of mainting their wealth through banking and investment.




Yes, they are the children of the first group. The American Dream is that your children do "better" than you did. Whats wrong with leaving them your money? I'm sure that some people would want that money to be taken from them, and given to some social program. Why penalize
that person who was a hard worker by penalizing their children?

Quote:


I've known a lot of corporate schills who got paid high salaries to forgoe human decency and abdicate responsibility in the course of their jobs. And i've had to deal with a lot of evil corporations that act as souless machines. I'm not a big fan of organizations in general, and I think that corportions can be just as dangerous as the government.




I think that comapnies like this do exist, and I think that alot of"good" companies exist as well. Disliking "corporations" is what this post is all about. A man gets his education, goes to work on the board of a company, and all of the sudden something is wrong with that?

Quote:

I believe that the people in the first category should keep what they earn, but people in the second category should be crippled lest their ignorance and corruption do too much damage to society. I'm a lot less worried about poor people and welfare than I am about the power of corporations and their ability to fuck with my rights.




The people in the first ategory ARE being penalized, by not having the knowledge that, in their passing, their heirs will be taken care of and maybe live a life better than what they had to live. Why penalize people because their parents did such a good job? I think that in our mad rush for this false sense of "equality", we've decided to knock people down to a "mid point" level, rather than build people up.

Quote:


I don't hate wealth if it is earned, deserved, and constructive. But i dont appreciate the existence of wealth in the absence of intelligence and basic ethics, a condition which i find rampant in America.




Maybe we could have you sit down and interview every rich person, and use your standards to determine if they are using their money the right way. That sounds fair and democratic to me. If I want to use the millions I made from inventing something to build a GIGANTIc mansion and have it surrounded with tanks, thats my business. It's interesting how many people dislike big brother nosing aound in personal matters, until it's the rich that are going to be screwed by it.



--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2094831 - 11/12/03 01:26 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I don't have anything against successful people.

I do, however, have something against people who become successful at the expense of others.

Unfortunately, I see this all to often in todays world.


Yes, the class war does exist. It always has. It always will, or at least as long as there are classes. I think it's inevitable for the "less-fortunate" to feel wronged in some way by the "exceedingly-fortunate"


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2094914 - 11/12/03 01:44 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

This is a good subject for a post...

I think I'm the sort of person who may appear to show contempt for the rich....

I believe that social classes are appropriate, natural and good...it's just that the concept of "earning" is out of whack...I percieve a lot of the wealth creating mechanisms out there as being immoral...like moving money around every 45 minutes on international currency markets...

Ths sort of activity, in most cases, has nothing to do with faciliting international trade, but is more like a casino game, with the odds in favour of those on the inside of this 'club'

A man, named George Soros made 1 billion in 1 day doing this...I can't see how anyone can claim that this man 'earned' this money...

Also, most industry is controled by private interests and they run their factories in the name of profits for themselves, not as a natural part of the social order...(jobs)

For example, because of free trade, it is now common for private companies to relocate jobs into low wage zones...even if the company is enormously successful. It's not hard to imagine where these trends will lead if left unchecked...we can't hope to arrive at a good society when all that the people in contol do is everything in their power to hoard their power.

It's those sorts of things that make me cynical about the whole notion of the members of the ruling class having "earned" their 100's of millions or billions, and should be able to keep it for themselves when so many in the world don't even have clean water...

The wheels of the economy should steer towards the common good, not just the good of a small club who in the end, only enjoy their position because of the labour of others.

The people need to have a say as to what we, as a society invest in. Not these modern monarchs, who claim a modern form of the divine right to control the world.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Dade County
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2094962 - 11/12/03 01:54 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

No ones deserves to be rich
noone
everything comes from somewhere. when its gone, so are we


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2095035 - 11/12/03 02:09 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You can make something from nothing. Wealth can be created. Someone does not always have to lose for someone else to gain.


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Dade County
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2096215 - 11/12/03 09:50 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

baby hitler

wealth cannot be created. period. a niche in a market can be exploited. man-made capital is not created. wealth is fundamentally derived from the consumption of resourses-mostly energy. money comes from energy which is FINITE. OIL reserves are finite. in a dynamic system wealth (money) can move between sources. but it comes from the consumption of resourses.

does anybody hear me? wealth is finite b/c its source is finite. when the pipelines sound like the bottom of a mcflurry you will feel me. then we will see what happens to the economy

please hitler explain to me this magical infinite source of energy (wealth).
i would love to exploit it


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2096440 - 11/12/03 10:56 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Your point that wealth is essentially a crystallized form of energy (at least that's how I understood it) is an excellent one. It cuts like lightning through the pollyanna mental fog that thinks wealth is infinitely expandable and doesn't understand the law of entropy.

I think it should be pointed out, however, that some sources of energy are renewable, if not necessarily infinite. Our sun will eventually die out, but for the time being we may count on it as a reliable source of energy--as we can with wind, hydroelectric, and nuclear energy. Humanity's challenge at this point is to figure out how to harness those renewable sources of energy in a way which is economical (in the case of the first two--solar and wind), not destructive to the natural environment (in the case of hydroelectric), and not potentially catastrophic in case of breakdown (in the case of nuclear).

Other resources, such as land, fresh water, and others, are indeed finite. If we do not steward them carefully we're fucked, but since capitalism always chooses short and medium term profit over long-term stewardship it looks like we are, indeed, fucked.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2096650 - 11/12/03 12:10 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You can make something from nothing. Wealth can be created. Someone does not always have to lose for someone else to gain.





Agreed. I have no problem with people who create wealth. My main problem is when people take wealth from others. Where I differ from most hardcore capitalists is in the admission that individuals and private organizations can be just as guilty of taking wealth as socialistic and communistic governments.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2096766 - 11/12/03 12:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)


wealth cannot be created. period.


Yes it can. I believe I have stated this in another thread but I will
restate it here. Of all of the things that make up wealth, some
are finite(land, minerals), some are finite but renewable(trees,
crops), and some are infinite in scope(human labor and ideas).

Wealth is created all of the time. It is not mandatory that
for someone to gain they must take from someone else.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2097197 - 11/12/03 02:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

for someone to gain they must take from someone else.

I don't think anyone minds the wealth randall, I think it's the extreme greed that offends. Paying 10 year olds piss-all and brutalising them in nightmarish factories while you buy yourself your tenth mansion. If one of these Nike boss's would open up a school and give the kids a day of education a week, or give their workers decent working conditions etc I'd be happy for them to make as much money as they could.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2097237 - 11/12/03 02:58 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry for the quick reply, Alex, this isn't for you. If wealth can't be "created", mearly reassigned, my research should show that their is the same "Amount" of money/value in the market today as their was in 1800, adjusted for inflation? I don't think this will hold true.


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Xlea321]
    #2097890 - 11/12/03 05:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)


I don't think anyone minds the wealth randall, I think it's the
extreme greed that offends. Paying 10 year olds piss-all and
brutalising them in nightmarish factories while you buy yourself your
tenth mansion


It is true that these corporations employ a lot of people in far-off
lands where the environmental and labor laws are lax. First of all,
I think it is immoral for any company to do business in a country
where people aren't allowed to vote for their leaders. In these
circumstances, workers can definately be abused without much
ability to change things.

Another way to look at things...These workers in the "nightmarish"
factories usually only have several choices; farm while living
in a shack like your ancestors have done for thousands of years, or
work in a factory where you make a shitload more money than you could
make anywhere else in that country. That is why those people
work in those factories. Those jobs might not be very enticing
to you or I, but they are to these people because that is all there
is.

Are these companies taking advantage of cheap labor? Yes. Why do
they do that? Because us consumers in advanced countries want
things to be as cheap as possible.

Close down those factories and I'll bet that a lot of those workers
will be enraged that their source of income disappears.

Cheap foreign labor is a serious issue that has many facets. I
think that the U.S. should boycott goods from all non-democratic
countries personally.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2099074 - 11/12/03 11:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

RandalFlagg writes:

Another way to look at things...These workers in the "nightmarish"
factories usually only have several choices; farm while living
in a shack like your ancestors have done for thousands of years, or
work in a factory where you make a shitload more money than you could
make anywhere else in that country. That is why those people
work in those factories. Those jobs might not be very enticing
to you or I, but they are to these people because that is all there
is.


So many people posting here overlook this simple fact. I live in a third world country and I see this first hand. Before there was much foreign investment here, there weren't a lot of opportunities. Now there are. But that's all they are -- opportunities, or options, or choices. No one is forced to work in a clothing plant or in a hotel or in a cell phone boutique. People are left free to continue working as they always had before the advent of these options. Many do.

Close down those factories and I'll bet that a lot of those workers
will be enraged that their source of income disappears.


I've seen this first hand as well. It happened a couple of years back when the government raised the minimum wage and repealed some of the laws giving breaks to the companies operating in the Free Zones. A lot of factories (most Taiwanese, but some from Singapore as well if I recall correctly) shut down. It was pretty difficult for a lot of people.

On the other hand, a new factory opening is cause for celebration. I find it interesting how so many people here refer to the process of providing jobs for people in undeveloped countries as "exploitation". I can guarantee you the workers here lucky enough to snag one of those jobs don't feel exploited -- they are ecstatic.

pinky



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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: thescientist]
    #2099301 - 11/13/03 12:06 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thescientist said:
wealth cannot be created. period. a niche in a market can be exploited. man-made capital is not created. wealth is fundamentally derived from the consumption of resourses-mostly energy. money comes from energy which is FINITE. ... blah blah blah blah



When I create a computer program that others are willing to pay for, I am creating wealth. The same amount of energy is used regardless of whether I am downloading porn from the internet or writing a useful program that will increase the efficiency of my client(s). Why does one activity create something that is more valuable than the energy being consumed, while the other does not?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2099756 - 11/13/03 02:18 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

work in a factory where you make a shitload more money than you could

Nah, many of the western factories don't even pay minimum wage - that's why they often employ 12 year old girls and young women - easier to intimidate and brutalise.

I don't think the fact that you can find someone desperate enough to do something makes it right.You could go out and find an 8 year old girl you could pay to have sex. That doesn't mean having sex with 8 year old girls is right.

Now if these scumbags want to do this the least they should expect is the disrespect of all thinking, sane individuals. Surely that's the least we can do?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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