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 fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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 Re: Is Real Change Possible?  [Re: Mixomatosis]
#2092823 - 11/11/03 02:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mixomatosis said:
Mr mushrooms.. are you, y'know one of those jerks who are mean to fat women and can't see beyond superficial things
Easy for you to say, you weren't the one spending your life savings on her eating habits. 
Did I say habits? I meant drill routines.
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
Edited by fireworks_god (11/11/03 02:05 PM)
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Anonymous
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 Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Mixomatosis]
#2092833 - 11/11/03 02:06 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, that's me all the way. 
Fat people don't bother me unless they are standing or sitting on a part of my body.
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Mixomatosis
great ape
Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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money is soo superficial and shallow
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lucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Sclorch]
#2092836 - 11/11/03 02:06 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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This thread has just spawned an irreversible chain
of thoughts in my mind inducing a state of abject
sarcasm...
as a result I will haunt the shroomery for the
rest of my days tormenting u all with my sardonic wit...
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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."
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 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Sclorch]
#2092856 - 11/11/03 02:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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But... change by volition ALONE? Hmm, I'm not even sure what this means.
How many times have you read a book that presented new ideas or real courage that momentarily inspired you to do great things, but the motivation quickly fizzled days after the book closed? Do you believe that anyone really changed from reading Plato or Castaneda or Shackelton or...
When I stated by volition alone, I meant without an obvious accompanying personal and external catalyst such as I listed in my opening remark.
Try this exercise, "I will appreciate tomorrow's sunrise (sober and by volition alone) as much as a person who only has days to live." I doubt that you could do it.
Radical perceptual and behavourial shifts require radical impetus.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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David_Scape
Anti Genius
Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Swami]
#2092870 - 11/11/03 02:15 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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leaving the debate for free will out of this, volition plays a role but it seems cheap considering it seems closer to emotional coercion than actual volition. I think Mr.Mush's example involves a 'stronger' will in the sense that he saw a problem, decided to make an example of himself and loose weight. But when a person doesnt decide to to stop doing crack untill one day he almost has a coronary and realizes damn, "i almost died and im hurting my friends and family.". Such a person probably continued his actions fully knowing the consequences, but it wasnt untill his problem actually manifested itself that he decides to do something about it.
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Anonymous
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Swami]
#2093039 - 11/11/03 03:17 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said:
How many times have you read a book that presented new ideas or real courage that momentarily inspired you to do great things, but the motivation quickly fizzled days after the book closed?
Radical perceptual and behavourial shifts require radical impetus.
The book analogy puts a different spin on things. Also when we enter into feelings or desires we leave the domain of volition. If you dislike liver could you make yourself prefer it over all other foods? Probably not. If yellow is your favorite color could you change that to blue? Again, probably not.
And so when we enter that aspect of human behavior we leave volition or free will far behind. Radical behavioral shifts do not always require radical impetus as my anecdote pointed out. However, reading a book that motivates you or hearing a motivational speaker only to find yourself stuck in the same old rut is something we all experience.
There is a lot of hype out there.
Also I should mention that I have made a practice out of going outside of my "comfort zone" for most of my life. However, all behaviors can become habitual given the correct circumstances.
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Anonymous
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Swami]
#2093071 - 11/11/03 03:26 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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about 6 months ago i was daydreaming when i came to a pretty profound decision on how to steer my life into a completely new direction, after the initial thought i followed it up with continual thinking and planning, and so far its turned out pretty nicely.
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Anonymous
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: ]
#2093094 - 11/11/03 03:32 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have found that to be a far more effective method of change than any book or public motivational speaker.
It's internal.
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Swami]
#2093098 - 11/11/03 03:33 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Trendal makes a point that only now some of us are experiencing. As we age, change is inherant. Change, or stagnation. It is still completely about volition.
But in some way, as you age and you experience more and more, profound changes can occur. They did for me. Just in surrounding myself with amazing people, my whole life changed in 2 short years because I was able to relate to things outside of my own tangible scope of knowledge. I tried to soften my heart to their experiences instead of my judgement.
The change was fundamental. It was a change in what food I put into my body, what products I purchased, how I felt about myself, how I felt about humanity, how I felt about religion... I could go on an on.
I consider myself extremely lucky that it occured at a time in my life where I was open to it, not resisting, as so many do. So sure in their knowledge.
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shwowsh
growologist
Registered: 07/29/03
Posts: 236
Loc: Deep in the Heart...
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: PsiloKitten]
#2094688 - 11/11/03 10:48 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well I guess I kind of have a feeling that the more significant changes that people make in their lives have to spawn from something, anything such as a feeling, trauma, shock etc. But I belive that every change has to have some fuel to start the fire. I think the question of whether or not someone can make changes with a very small amount of fuel, because you can't make changes without a reason. This applies even if your reason is to change just for the sole purpose of having some change/variety.
It seems silly to think that people can make changes just because its there choice, unless of course we are talking about trivial things such as favorite color, how you tie your shoes etc.
I think it is possible to make changes without very significant trauma, because people do take a step back and evaluate their life, and make changes according to their feelings about it.
Me personally, I made a change similar to mr. mushrooms in that I chose to do something about a weight problem I had. I at one time weighed 285 lbs. and now I weigh about 215 lbs. I made the choice because of the feelings I had, that I wasn't happy with myself in the social environment I was in.
Point? That there will always be a reason why someone makes a change, no matter how insignificant.
p.s. 215 is still a bit high, but I am 6'4" which makes it a bit different =].
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-------------------------------------------------
We're all children here, so could we please start acting like it?
Edited by shwowsh (11/11/03 10:51 PM)
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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 Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Swami]
#2094883 - 11/11/03 11:39 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Der Swami: How many times have you read a book that presented new ideas or real courage that momentarily inspired you to do great things, but the motivation quickly fizzled days after the book closed?
Never.
Do you believe that anyone really changed from reading Plato or Castaneda or Shackelton or...
Haven't gotten around to reading about Antarctic explorers. Fuck Casteneda. But Plato fucked me up real nice... permanently. Plato set the philosophical hook in me.
When I stated by volition alone, I meant without an obvious accompanying personal and external catalyst such as I listed in my opening remark.
Well, you might argue the hell out of this one with me, but hours (five or six?) after a rather uneventful, low-dosage LSD trip, I had a helluva self-induced inspiration. I realized that I could do whatever I wanted... good, bad, whatever... and that I wasn't tied down by anything but other people's expectations of me. I changed my life all by myself and no one knew it. I even wrote a letter to my parents explaining my paradigm shift. Long story short: they couldn't understand what I stated, though it was in plain english. I explained that it was their expectations that were binding me and that I was uncomfortable in that position.
Like I said... you might want to attribute this event to the drug, but I can assure you that it was all me.
Radical perceptual and behavourial shifts require radical impetus.
In the case I've pointed out, the impetus was merely a realization. I wouldn't consider it to be "an obvious accompanying personal and external catalyst".
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Swami]
#2094896 - 11/11/03 11:41 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have made changes of my own volition, not precipitated by any major shock. As a matter of fact, the 'shocks' came after my decision to change. What prompted the decision to change? A growing cognitive dissonance brought about by my maturation in thought and morality. It started out as interesting notes playing in my mind then became a low rumble, gradually growing in intensity until I could no longer tolerate it. I could no longer live the life that resulted from my previous decisions of convenience, I could no longer engage in actions which ran counter to my ideals.
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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 Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Evolving]
#2094939 - 11/11/03 11:49 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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"A growing cognitive dissonance..."
THAT is poetry.
And I'm stealing it.
*scribble scribble jot jot*
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Sclorch]
#2094973 - 11/11/03 11:56 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Evolving borrowed that from somewhere else. I am not sure of the source, but I have seen it in print.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Swami]
#2095018 - 11/12/03 12:06 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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*erase erase erase*
Oh, okay then.
*scribble scribble jot*
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Swami]
#2095082 - 11/12/03 12:16 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said:
Evolving borrowed that from somewhere else. I am not sure of the source, but I have seen it in print.
Only the term, 'cognitive dissonance,' that's some psycho term... who was it? Maslow?
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Evolving]
#2095101 - 11/12/03 12:21 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Only the term, 'cognitive dissonance
As you added the adjective "growing" to it, you have taken the term to a new and deeper level.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Swami]
#2095107 - 11/12/03 12:23 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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 Re: Is Real Change Possible? [Re: Evolving]
#2095270 - 11/12/03 01:05 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Okay kids... enough with this gay banter.
The important thing is the message here: Nuns who fart in church sit in their own pew.
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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