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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2093520 - 11/11/03 05:28 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

What about companies? Would a company have to pay taxes on 5 tons of blue phenolic plastic pellets?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2093687 - 11/11/03 06:27 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

No, only green pellets.

Yes there's a consumption tax on pellets.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2093692 - 11/11/03 06:28 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Here's one of many links on the subject.

Link


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2093733 - 11/11/03 06:41 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I do find one minor problem with this: By eliminating income tax, you're eliminating tax deductions, therefore giving less incentive to donate to charity. Sure, many people will still do so out of the goodness of their heart, but since this seems to be a system which rewards stinginess, there would be less incentive for them to do so.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2093746 - 11/11/03 06:44 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

My guess is there'd be about the same charitable deductions. I think many of those you'd probably consider stingy, would give either way, and many who don't will do so as they would most likely have more disposable income.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2093780 - 11/11/03 06:54 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

So the businesses pay consumption taxes on their supplies and expenses, and then when people buy their products (made from these supplies) they pay consumption taxes again on the goods?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2093782 - 11/11/03 06:55 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

That's my understanding.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinepattern
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2093847 - 11/11/03 07:12 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

However, my heart does bleed for anybody who
has their wealth taken away by force and given to other people.




Which includes all the working class poor, who pay taxes as well. It's not like the rich are being singled out here. They pay alot more taxes, but its not as tho the more you are taxed the more pain you suffer.

For example a guy making $30,000 a year being taxed %50 is hurt a hell of a lot more than a guy making $1,000,000 a year being taxed at %75. The amount of money taken away is irrelevant when compared to the amount you're left over with at the end.

Taxes are not simply taken away from the rich and given to the poor. That is only one aspect. Taxes pay for many public services and infrastructure that all people use, rich or poor. In that case, the rich must be taxed more, because if there was a flat tax, the poor couldn't afford to pay for all that stuff. Case in point: America. Those nice roads and highways were built with income tax dollars from the rich.


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Offlinepattern
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2093895 - 11/11/03 07:25 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Wow. Some people think $100,000 -$1 million is rich. $100,000 is one modest house with a few acres. $500,000 is just enough for an older couple to retire with a reasonable level of comfort.




Its all relative. A millionaire doesn't consider $500k to be rich, and a guy who is broke thinks $500k is rich.

It mostly depends where you live and how you spend it. In some places in America, $100,000 isn't alot. Pretty much anywhere else in the world, if you had $100,000 you would be considered very wealthy. I'd say $500,000+ is upper class, $1,000,000+ is rich, and anything over $20 million is filthy rich.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: pattern]
    #2093959 - 11/11/03 07:42 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)


Which includes all the working class poor, who pay taxes as well.


Most everybody pays taxes. The very poor don't pay any(if you
consider all of the money they receive from the government),
the rich pay a shitload, and the people in the middle pay a decent
amount. I think everybody's taxes are too high because our government
spends too much money. I think the rich AND the poor deserve to
hold onto more of the money that they earned themselves.


It's not like the rich are being singled out here. They pay alot more
taxes, but its not as tho the more you are taxed the more pain you
suffer.

For example a guy making $30,000 a year being taxed %50 is hurt a
hell of a lot more than a guy making $1,000,000 a year being taxed at
%75. The amount of money taken away is irrelevant when compared to
the amount you're left over with at the end.



The fact of the matter is that that million dollars is HIS and nobody
elses. He earned it and he deserves to keep a hell of a lot more than
he does now. I do believe in the rich paying more in taxes than
the poor. But, as I said I believe taxes for everybody should be
lowered, and the only way to do that is to cut government spending.
I believe the first area we need to cut are social handout programs.


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Anonymous

Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2094171 - 11/11/03 08:38 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

if ontop of being able to afford food, clothing, water, and warm shelter you can also afford a car, television, telephone, medical care, appliances, or electricity, you are rich.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: ]
    #2094186 - 11/11/03 08:40 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

If you own more than one pair of shoes you are rich.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: ]
    #2094189 - 11/11/03 08:41 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
if ontop of being able to afford food, clothing, water, and warm shelter you can also afford a car, television, telephone, medical care, appliances, or electricity, you are rich.



On a global scale, yes. Certainly not by American standards, though.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinepattern
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2094257 - 11/11/03 08:53 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Most everybody pays taxes. The very poor don't pay any(if you
consider all of the money they receive from the government),
the rich pay a shitload, and the people in the middle pay a decent
amount. I think everybody's taxes are too high because our government
spends too much money. I think the rich AND the poor deserve to
hold onto more of the money that they earned themselves.




Good points, I agree.

Quote:


The fact of the matter is that that million dollars is HIS and nobody
elses. He earned it and he deserves to keep a hell of a lot more than
he does now. I do believe in the rich paying more in taxes than
the poor. But, as I said I believe taxes for everybody should be
lowered, and the only way to do that is to cut government spending.
I believe the first area we need to cut are social handout programs.





Everyone here probably agrees that taxes should be lowered by lowering government spending... but America doesn't work that way. At least not for the last 50 years. Compare the amount of programs cut to the amount of programs created. The ratio is constantly rising in favor of more spending.

I think that ending the Drug War (most of it), the Iraq War (eventually), etc, is a higher priority than ending welfare. Cut out useless money sponges like Homeland Security.

In the end, everyone wants their twenty favorite government programs to exist but the only way for that to happen is to pay for it. So their solution is to cut everyone else's favorite programs to pay for theirs. Since there is so much money in America, and two parties representing all the special interests, everyone's favorite program ends up getting funded. The only way that system can be supported is taxing the rich as much as possible. There will never be a decent taxation level until all the junk is cut from the government. And that won't happen unless demand for that junk is reduced. Considering that most of the rich in America support junk like the Drug War and the Iraq War (i dont have sources, but i'm betting its true), they are going to have to keep paying huge taxes to fund those wars so they can watch them on CNN.


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man = monkey + mushroom

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: pattern]
    #2094275 - 11/11/03 08:58 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Drug war = $40 billion annually.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2094300 - 11/11/03 09:03 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Drug war = $40 billion annually.



and rising.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinepattern
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2094339 - 11/11/03 09:11 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Let's hope they never figure out how use that money efficiently.


--------------------
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: pattern]
    #2094476 - 11/11/03 09:55 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

They could eliminate all drug use from the country if they really wanted to, but to do so would require a police state the likes of which the world has never seen, and would drain the budget so much as to put us into another great depression.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineTao
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Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2095295 - 11/12/03 01:11 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Two questions for the pollster:

1) Does this subtract money they owe to banks such as a mortgage?

2) Is this rich americans or rich worldly (i assume the former)

Quote:

$500,000 is just enough for an older couple to retire with a reasonable level of comfort.




isnt it something like only 1-2% of retirees are financially independent from government and family?

and when we're talking about cutting social welfare, remember that that's only 5.6% of the budget, we wouldnt all be filthy rich by cutting it. in fact, IMO, if you cut them all off, many would resort to crime to feed and shelter their families, costing the state yet more money in justice proceedings.

Quote:

Do you make your wealth by working, or do you make your wealth by usury(lending money, collecting off the work off others.)





personally, i think this is the key point. IMO if youre what we call 'rich', then its the latter. i agree that we should try to avoid taking money from the former, but those people earning millions off of others doing work for them, just because they own the service/company/name, whatever, i dont feel very guilty making them pay a lot of money back to society. like pattern said, i think its more about how much money they're left with and if they're in the upper tax bracket, its PLENTY.

Quote:

Government handouts are what have destroyed the lower class.




when exactly was the lower class doing well? when they and their 10-year old children were working in coal mines in extremely dangerous conditions while barely making enough to feed themselves? yeah man, those guys had the life unlike these people who receive food stamps.

Quote:

Everyone here probably agrees that taxes should be lowered



I don't. we and japan pay considerably less taxes (as compared to our gdp) than all the other industrialized countries. i think the problem is that since we pay the bare-bones taxes, we dont see as much where our taxes go and thus don't appreciate any goverment services like a NHS. i heard a survey once asking english people whether they thought they were paying too much, too little or just the right amount of taxes. i think it was somthing around 30 percent thought they were paying too little and around 50 percent thought it was just right. when they asked americans? 1% said 'too little'.
what accounts for the difference in perception (without simply flogging the english)? its an interesting question, im not sure, i can only guess.


and a question about the consumption tax--wouldnt that considerably discourage spending and thus greatly hurt the economy? and also when the rich are giving people money to do things i think thats better and should be encouraged versus just sitting on their money.


--------------------
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Invisibleseti
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Registered: 12/30/02
Posts: 92
Re: Poll: How rich are "The Rich"? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2126266 - 11/20/03 09:55 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Randal, while I agree with you on everything you've said, this is straight up funny shit:

>The fact of the matter is that that million dollars is HIS and
>nobody elses. He earned it...

hahah. my guess is you don't come from a rich family or you'd know how incorrect that idea is.

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