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OfflinePhred
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Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: Tao]
    #2090911 - 11/11/03 12:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

TaoTeChing writes:

what was the great platform that Arnold ran under that got him elected?

Apparently one which appealed to the voters of California more than the great platforms of Gray Davis or Cruz Bustamente.

pinky


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: Phred]
    #2090999 - 11/11/03 01:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Arnold never had much of a platform.

He was elected cuz he's a movie star. And cuz he's convienient.

Too bad the people won't be able to get rid of him as easily as you would a whore on Sunday morning...





--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Edited by carbonhoots (11/11/03 01:34 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2091009 - 11/11/03 01:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

He was elected cuz he's a movie star.

Good call.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleafoaf
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2091021 - 11/11/03 01:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Arnold still doesn't have much of a platform...

(I think my dad's gonna owe me some money come April)

in fact, he's a perfect example of what I was talking
about before...

the media market out here was absolutely flooded with
Arnold...both by his own campaign and that of other
media sources who may as well been managed by his
campaign.

lots of smiles and baseless promises of better days
for beautiful cahleefornia...so much of it that qualified
candidates such as McClintock and Camejo never had
a chance to communicate their message to the masses.

it was a foregone conclusion.

and poor california has yet to get to the real punchline...


--------------------
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2091804 - 11/11/03 11:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)


If the government and "social champions" keep treating them(blacks)
as if they are incapable of succeeding, it will only get worse.


Black people are more likely than white people to live in poverty,
therefore they are more likely to be the recipients of income
redistribution. But, there are a lot of white people who are poor
and who receive assistance too. The crime rates for black people are
still subtantially higher than whites, even when you take into
consideration the bad effects of income redistribution. I beleive
that it is more than just that that is making young black males
commit more crimes than their white counterparts. I just don't
know what.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: Phred]
    #2091806 - 11/11/03 11:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf writes:

the republicans channeled a TON of money
from supporters to turn the tides of the
midterm senate elections in 2002 in a couple
traditionally democrat states.

And this money came from the companies that own prisons? Source, please.




Actually, its not only corporations that own the prisons that rake in horrendous amounts of money from them. For example, mass incarceration allows manufacturers to hire convict labour at third-world prices without the import and export costs. And there are no doubt other ways in which non-prison-related firms profit from the incarceration binge.

By far the most insideous contributing factor is the fact that the US economy is forced to externalize costs in order to keep the dollar afloat in the foreign currency markets. We can either pay a drug-abusing worker $20000/yr; or else we can imprison that person and charge the taxpayers the same amount to keep him/her under lock and key. The latter approach results in much larger profit margins, which are necessary to keep the dollar competitive. It is no accident that 9/11 happened 3 months before the switch to the Euro.



--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2091811 - 11/11/03 11:13 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)


Not surprisingly, the problem is corporations such as Bechtel, CCA, and various military contractors (ie. GE), who make a good chunk of their profits from building, maintaining, and upgrading prisons. They have a vested interest in keeping as many ppl incarcerated for as long as possible. And no candidate can be elected or appointed to a high public office without their full blessing and support. They are contractually bound to draught legislation, hand down judgements, etc. that are specifically intended to expand the market for the prison industry. The "war on drugs" (and now the "war on terrorism") have nothing to do with their names; its all about lining the pockets of the prison-military-industrial-complex.


You are implying that these companies are influencing the political
process by urging lawmakers to do whatever they can to increase
the prison population. That is a serious charge. You should have
ample proof of that before you make such a statement. Do you
have proof of it, or is it a left-wing conspiracy theory?

The fact of the matter is, is that when someone goes to prison,
they broke a law to get there. This may come as a shock, but
the large majority of American citizens don't want drugs to be legal,
and they want people who sell and do them to be put in jail. That
is why drugs are illegal, and that is why people involved in them
who are caught get incarcerated.





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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2091864 - 11/11/03 11:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

RandalFlagg writes:

The fact of the matter is, is that when someone goes to prison,
they broke a law to get there. This may come as a shock, but
the large majority of American citizens don't want drugs to be legal,
and they want people who sell and do them to be put in jail. That
is why drugs are illegal, and that is why people involved in them
who are caught get incarcerated.


But... wait a minute. If the majority of Americans wish drugs to be illegal, that means that the will of the majority is being implemented -- i.e., on this issue at least, democratic principles in America are being followed.

But clearly those who take drugs and behave peacefully are no threat to the rights of others. Nonetheless, their rights are being violated. So which is more important? The will of the majority or the rights of the peaceful?

Can anyone list other examples of peaceful individuals having their rights violated by the majority?

pinky


--------------------


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: Phred]
    #2091874 - 11/11/03 11:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

sounds like bait...

Tibetan Monks come to mind.

where are you going with this?



--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2091875 - 11/11/03 11:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You are implying that these companies are influencing the political
process by urging lawmakers to do whatever they can to increase
the prison population. That is a serious charge. You should have
ample proof of that before you make such a statement. Do you
have proof of it, or is it a left-wing conspiracy theory?




If you want proof, go to any search engine and search on "prison industrial complex".

Quote:

The fact of the matter is, is that when someone goes to prison,
they broke a law to get there. This may come as a shock, but
the large majority of American citizens don't want drugs to be legal,
and they want people who sell and do them to be put in jail. That
is why drugs are illegal, and that is why people involved in them
who are caught get incarcerated.




Can you provide proof of that? I would venture that the large majority is either indifferent and/or are simply willing to accept whatever the corporate bosses tell them. Even so, i doubt that majority would put a two-bit pot dealer on the same par with a serial killer, which the laws draughted by the corporations do.


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: afoaf]
    #2091909 - 11/11/03 12:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

afoaf writes:

Tibetan Monks come to mind.

Sorry, entirely my fault. I should have made it more clear that since I was speaking of American democracy, American laws, peaceful American drug users, and the will of the American majority, I was looking for American examples.

pinky


--------------------


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: Phred]
    #2091946 - 11/11/03 12:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

were you trying to go somewhere with that question?

peaceful (american) individuals having their rights
violated by the majority?


affirmative action?
welfare?
eminent domain?



--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: Phred]
    #2092133 - 11/11/03 01:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


But clearly those who take drugs and behave peacefully are no threat
to the rights of others.


True. But, not all drug users are responsible and peaceful people.


Nonetheless, their rights are being violated.


True.


So which is more important? The will of the majority or the rights of
the peaceful?


One of the classic pitfalls of representative democracy; majority
tyranny.


Can anyone list other examples of peaceful individuals having their
rights violated by the majority?


Welfare and affirmative action.


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Anonymous

Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: Phred]
    #2092169 - 11/11/03 01:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Can anyone list other examples of peaceful individuals having their rights violated by the majority?

people in the illegal drug market, gamblers, prostitutes & their clients, homosexuals, polygamists, snake-handling baptists, anyone who pays taxes in america...


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2092180 - 11/11/03 01:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


If you want proof, go to any search engine and search on "prison
industrial complex".


I did. All I saw were long-winded essays on how horrible it is
that a bunch of people are locked up in America. Yet, it didn't
address the simple concept that the reason they are there is because
they committed crimes. I saw lots of statements about how prisons
have become big business, which is true. Why has it become a
big business though? Because a lot of people commit crimes.


The fact of the matter is, is that when someone goes to prison,
they broke a law to get there. This may come as a shock, but
the large majority of American citizens don't want drugs to be legal,
and they want people who sell and do them to be put in jail. That
is why drugs are illegal, and that is why people involved in them
who are caught get incarcerated.


Can you provide proof of that?

http://www.marijuananews.com/gallup_poll_shows_73.htm

This is a site that is obviously going to be biased towards anything
that is pro-marijuana. Yet, the poll they posted(a gallup poll)
admits that only 29% of people favor marijuana legalization(and as
we all know, the support for other drug's legalization is always
lower than marijuana's). So, 71% don't support the legalization of
marijuana, hence you can see that the public support for its
continued illegality is there. That is why people go to jail
because of it.


Even so, i doubt that majority would put a two-bit pot dealer on the
same par with a serial killer, which the laws draughted by the
corporations do.


A lot of the drug laws that were implemented do have severe
punishments that oftentimes exceed the punishments for violent
crimes. Why is this you ask? Because a lot of people associate
drugs with violent crime. The neighborhoods that have the drugs
in them also seem to have the most robberies and murders.

I personally don't think it is right when a rapist goes to prison for
five years and a pot dealer goes to prison for ten years. A byproduct
of democracy is that the whims of the population oftentimes are put
into law. When drug hysteria reaches a pinnacle, draconian laws are
put into place because the public clamours for them.

Yes, corporations do profit from people being in prison. They
are paid to watch them and the prisoners work for super cheap wages.
But, do you have any proof that corporations use illegal influence to
alter legislation that calls for the imprisonment of more people,
merely to make more money? Corporations don't need to do any
influencing in this area, because the population of criminals is so
high already.



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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2092310 - 11/11/03 02:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why has it become a big business though?

Because a lot of people commit crimes


or is it that people recognized that they could
increase profits from criminals by increasing
crimes and their penalties?

you could look at it both ways.

it begins to look suspicious when you consider
the sheer number of new laws passed every
year.

'three strikes', for example.

plus, the patriot act has been a boon for the prison
industry as they receive additional federal funds
for housing the immigration detainees. usually
at a rate higher than they receive for *regular*
inmates.

I'm not trying to imply some sweeping prison
industry conspiracy theory, just that it could be
argued from both sides.

I'd be interested to know if businesses associated
with the prison industry gave money to support the
three strikes laws, to fight legalization efforts, to
support mandatory minimums and other similar
causes that could, conceivably, increase profits.


--------------------
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Posts: 15,608
Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: afoaf]
    #2093188 - 11/11/03 05:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


I'd be interested to know if businesses associated
with the prison industry gave money to support the
three strikes laws, to fight legalization efforts, to
support mandatory minimums and other similar
causes that could, conceivably, increase profits.


Exactly. I am not saying that the "prison industrial conspiracy"
doesn't exist. I really don't know. If someone would show me ample
and undeniable proof(instead of conjecture) of questionable and
illegal action by corporations in regards to incarceration, then I would believe.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2093748 - 11/11/03 08:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm going to call Mr. Wackenhut and ask him
how he feels about legalization. :grin:


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 498
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: Rono]
    #2093768 - 11/11/03 08:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
maybe they just get convicted more....





I hear this tidbit quite a lot in school and on here. I'm wondering if you have some actual proof (the only one that Ic ould think of would be an exact number of EVERY SINGLE crime commited, and the race of the offended, an impossible talley to ever achieve) of this assertation, or if it just feels good to say? If you can't prove that the black males are being convicted more than whites, it's just a subjective claim. Just because alot of people say this, doesnt' mean it's true. you can't claim that every number that is presented against your position is "wrong" and "bias", unless you can bring up some numbers that prove it.


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: US prison population "largest in the world" [Re: Phred]
    #2093867 - 11/11/03 09:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I realize that this has no real bearing on the subect, and certinatly isn't an objective manner or any proof at all, take it for what it is. On COPS the other night, a sting operation was setup where a tractor trailer would be parked in the "ghetto" (read: black part of town) and the looters would be arrested. Every single time they parked it, within 20 minutes it would be looted by black men. I somehow doubt this would happen if it was parked in a trailer park inhabited by white people, or an Indian reservation inhabited by hte poorest, most trampled on people in America.


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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