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Offlinejimboob
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My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time * 2
    #20882081 - 11/24/14 12:29 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Hanging out with my girlfriend and her family all weekend. They are some of the nicest people I've met. They are so light hearted, happy and family oriented. My girl herself is such a sweet person.

I have been battling depression for about ten years now, a battle that I've fought with all sorts of counter productive addictions. Compared to these people I feel so dirty and broken. I can somewhat enjoy myself some of the time, but most of the time I'm not as peppy and light hearted as these people. I try and seem like I'm having a good time with her familly, while I actually just want to go home. Having to put on a mask and pretend to be okay wears me down so fast, and it's starting to show.

I'm no asking for advice, this is more of a vent. I know I need to put down the drugs and take better care of myself, and I'm working on that I really am, but in the mean time I wish I had some space to take off my mask. Between all my obligations (work, family, personal responsibilities)  I have no time to live out the way I actually feel inside.

I wish I could just cry and mope and bitch and scream and be a cranky asshole for no real reason other than that's how I feel right now. I wish I could do that without everyone asking me what's wrong. They mean well, but I don't want to tell then my life story, you know?

I think having to fake it does more damage than my actual depression. Having to suck it up and go to work, and smile in front of these people so they don't think my girl is dating a fuck up, pretending like I'm happy is the most stressful of stressors.

It just sucks you know? Feels like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. My girl is the greatest and pours her god damn heart into everything she does for me, and here I am feeling like a turd.

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Offlinesprinkles
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20882128 - 11/24/14 12:57 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

antidepressants?  they certainly aren't the cure, but they do help the generally feeling miserable.  while you're taking them you can work on the things that will cure whats causing you to feel that way.

and obviously stop using drugs.  that pretty much goes without saying.  that would make a huge difference and is probably the reason you are depressed in the first place.  anyway my advice is to take more drugs.  makes sense, right? 

:disappointedlaugh:


--------------------
welcome to my world http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/326

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Offlinejimboob
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: sprinkles]
    #20882159 - 11/24/14 01:29 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I decided long ago I don't do anti depressants. There is a reason I am depressed and it's not because I was born with an inherent need for Zoloft. You are right about the drugs though, I am aware that they aren't helping.

But I think the real issue here is an imbalance of how I handle how I feel inside and what's the appropriate way to be for the given situation. I tend to try and stuff my feelings down into a box and force myself to act a certain way to get a certain result. The other end of this spectrum is being an emotional wreck who's blown around like a piece of paper in the wind by all of their feelings.

Since I posted this topic I've relaxed a bit. I think the key is allowing yourself to feel a certain way while expressing it appropriately at the same time. This is common sense bullshit that most people don't have to re-learn in their lives, but I've gotten into such a habit of trying to be someone I'm not out of fear of rejection that I forgot how to express myself in a more authentic way.

Whenever I trip I usually get to a point where my fears sort of override my mental walls completely, and I have no choice but to drop my own act. Those are the times I feel the most peace, there's no more inner conflict.

I guess that's what Watts was talking about.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob] * 2
    #20882492 - 11/24/14 07:43 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I hear you.  I have found a possible treatment.  If you are interested PM me please.

In the mean time I'd suggest just accepting that you are not the cause of your depression and accepting yourself exactly as you are. Obviously your GF sees someone really worthwhile in you. Don't write that off.  Best of luck brother. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinecircastes
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander]
    #20882837 - 11/24/14 09:44 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Human life isn't perfect, like the rest of nature, sometimes it gets random and wrong. You may need antidepressants because your brain has lost the ability to produce/release serotonin in adequate quantities.

Honestly no one reasonable is going to judge you... you need water, you need food, you need excitement and love, and you may just need a serotonin reuptake inhibitor, it's that simple. Once it's on board and it works just forget about it and enjoy life.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Offlinejimboob
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: circastes]
    #20885310 - 11/24/14 07:17 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Human life isn't perfect, like the rest of nature, sometimes it gets random and wrong. You may need antidepressants because your brain has lost the ability to produce/release serotonin in adequate quantities.

Honestly no one reasonable is going to judge you... you need water, you need food, you need excitement and love, and you may just need a serotonin reuptake inhibitor, it's that simple. Once it's on board and it works just forget about it and enjoy life.




Never thought of it like that. I often flip flop between thinking I'm not living right and thinking I can't live right because of some sort of defect. It's likely they both perpetuate eachother.

I'm really looking to tackle this thing, I just don't know how. For the most part I have all my ducks in a row, but it's really hard keeping myself in line when I'm so damn down all the time. Feels like I'm always wading through the mud day in and day out.

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Offlinejayfoxpox
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20886509 - 11/24/14 10:35 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Start an expressive journal, and just write down everything that's bothering you to lay everything out, then look for certain beliefs you think might by dysfunctional, find evidence for and against that particular belief and if try replace it with another.
Here's a CBT thought record that might be helpful aswell
http://files.meetup.com/3408502/Thought%20Record%20worksheet,%207-column.gif

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob] * 1
    #20886774 - 11/24/14 11:24 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

The way you think about it can either contribute or provide some relief to your condition. As circastes said, nobody worth your time is going to put you down for it. On the flip side, some of those people who would might be at a point in their life where they could use some help, and all those who would give someone shit for being unhappy have troubles of their own. So why value their judgment?

Thinking poorly of yourself causes stress. Stress is damaging and will hamper the efforts of your body to correct itself. It is not that you need to think more positively of yourself but that you need to think less in so far as judging yourself either way. You can address the thoughts regarding depression by not giving them as much importance. For me this realization changed everything though it's a long process which is still ongoing to a smaller degree. I remember the day it happened and I knew it was important. It was/is a great feeling to know that I can ignore self judgment. And in the same realization is the knowledge that I can ignore the judgment of others. If I don't have to judge myself why the fuck would I let other people judge me? It is the same thing in so much as what I experience. If I accept someone else's judgment I am judging myself.

That good feeling happens within the silence of thought. It's there in the background. Find it. Seek the steady rather than the high. Value it more than your judgments. It will be full of effort and take practice and patience and constant correction but over time it will become normal and your moments of self judgment will become the exception. That inner silence will most always be with you, and if I had to guess there's some serotonin production involved.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
I am      I feel      I do     I love I speak    I see    I know


“Science advances one funeral at a time”
~Max Planck

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20887327 - 11/25/14 05:32 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

big pharma don't need the freakin docs and shrinks peddling their drugs, ALL you have to do is come on forums like this and you got people doing it also. 'take the SSRIs' the this the that. JEEEEZUS

All I can encourage is don't listen to them. They are caught up in the mental illness myth to even say it

I say that you are feeling like you are because that is the way you are feeling. That is it!
Many people can seem boring,and the fact you don't find their company scintilating is not your fault.
I like comedians in a way, because the good ones don't usually give a shit and will poke through pretensions in social intercourse. Cause 99 percent of what goes on in our culture is a BIG lie. Most people ARE putting on a mask just like you feel you are

my first LSD trip when I was 15, and i was at a party watching these others (who weren't tripping) showed me the massive HILARIOUS contradictions between what they presenting as their social persona ( 'persona' literally meaning ‘mask, character played by an actor’!). and their body language! I was laughing like I was gonna die watching this


Quote:

So the world doesn't come thinged; it doesn't come evented. You and I are all as much continuous with the physical universe as a wave is continuous with the ocean. The ocean waves, and the universe peoples. And as I wave and say to you 'Yoo-hoo!' the world is waving with me at you and saying 'Hi! I'm here!' But we are consciousness of the way we feel and sense our existence. Being based on a myth that we are made, that we are parts, that we are things, our consciousness has been influenced, so that each one of us does not feel that. We have been hypnotized, literally hypnotized by social convention into feeling and sensing that we exist only inside our skins. That we are not the original bang, just something out on the end of it. And therefore we are scared stiff. My wave is going to disappear, and I'm going to die! And that would be awful. We've got a mythology going now which is, as Father Maskell?, put it, we are something that happens between the maternity ward and the crematorium. And that's it. And therefore everybody feels unhappy and miserable. (Alan Watts)




Also man, respect what you WANT also which is sanctuary away from others you feel expect you (so you think anyhow) to be what your not. get it sorted. Find somewhere you can do that.

I know personally I am more feeling at ease with people who are respectful but nonconformist. The weirder the better, and in that way I can be my normal weird self too without worrying someone too much

lol, I remember I was at this little holoday with the art class I was with, and on the Wednesday I had dropped some acid. Nost of the trip I was just giggling at others and at everything, but this scene where a black woman who was quite satraight started small talking with me, and I said how amazing the trees looked, the colours were just dripping. You should have seen her face. She said 'HUH????!' and I had to quickly think a follow up sentence to normalize the conversation :rofl:

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Offlinejimboob
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20888224 - 11/25/14 11:42 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I think you guys are getting to the root problem...thinking itself. The pendulum swings both ways in my head, sometimes I feel great about myself, other times feel terrible.

The key i believe is eliminating any sort of self-consciousness (good or bad) altogether. What that means is "getting into" whatever your doing. Like when your exercising or dancing or cooking or cleaning and your whole mind is focused on that activity, that's it.

Maybe this state of being isn't limited to hobbies...maybe I can be totally "into" just sitting here.

I read this article last night about the "old/grandpa" way of treating depression; hard work, healthy hearty meals, manly hobbies and much less time spent watching TV and stuff...common sense stuff really. What all of these things have in common is that they occupy the mind. There's no room for any sort of self consciousness and rumination. It's just living, and living in a healthy way that coincides with what we're designed to do (eat healthy, move, sleep, fuck).

I get caught up in feeling bad, then thinking I have a "problem", and trying to figure out my problem, which causes me to go around and around in my mind, never quite finding the solution to my imaginary problem...

It can be hard to remember this though, because the key is actually a sort of "forgetting" haha

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20888541 - 11/25/14 12:59 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

That's the spirit, but when you are self conscious you can be the observer and avoid the negative aspects of it. No running away by trying to forget the self. When fear arises be fully conscious of it while remaining calm. It will be necessary to do this to deal with your fears, and not as bad as you might imagine it to be. Good actually. You will notice, and ask the question, is this fear or an underlying stream of excitement? It is only a matter of interpretation.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
I am      I feel      I do     I love I speak    I see    I know


“Science advances one funeral at a time”
~Max Planck

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Rahz]
    #20888725 - 11/25/14 01:40 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Try this to see if it works. The next time you are feeling fearful try and get away to your bed and lay down on it.  Then do a quick body scan to relax your body. When it begins to relax, consciously tell yourself you want to go back into the fear and feel/face it fully. Stay there until you accomplish this. Repeat until you get the message.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibler72rock
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander]
    #20889619 - 11/25/14 04:45 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds a lot like Gestalt. Can be hard at times of feeling overwhelmed, but if one can muster themselves to do it, it does help a whole lot from my experience. :smile:

Quote:

I wish I could just cry and mope and bitch and scream and be a cranky asshole for no real reason other than that's how I feel right now. I wish I could do that without everyone asking me what's wrong. They mean well, but I don't want to tell then my life story, you know?

I think having to fake it does more damage than my actual depression. Having to suck it up and go to work, and smile in front of these people so they don't think my girl is dating a fuck up, pretending like I'm happy is the most stressful of stressors.

It just sucks you know? Feels like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. My girl is the greatest and pours her god damn heart into everything she does for me, and here I am feeling like a turd.




Not really advice here, I just wanted to let you know that I fully feel where you're coming from. I feel the exact same way. It feels good to me knowing that I'm not alone in this feeling. It's a rough road. :heart: I try to remember things that I'm grateful for. That seems to help when I remember to do it and I'm not totally caught up in my thoughts.


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: r72rock]
    #20889667 - 11/25/14 04:58 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

:heart::thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblebilly jowl
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander]
    #20893051 - 11/26/14 12:40 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Try this to see if it works. The next time you are feeling fearful try and get away to your bed and lay down on it.  Then do a quick body scan to relax your body. When it begins to relax, consciously tell yourself you want to go back into the fear and feel/face it fully. Stay there until you accomplish this. Repeat until you get the message.



Have you read Pema Chodron?
I'm a big fan of her books.
Just reminds me of leaning into the sharp objects and feeling and accepting the experience.
(metaphorically speaking )
Just wondering if you've read some of her works?


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Offlinejimboob
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: billy jowl]
    #20893165 - 11/26/14 01:26 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks guys, it was a rough weekend but it was a learning experience. I'm feeling much better now, in fact I might of even had my own little breakthrough. It's two steps forward one step back, but I feel myself getting better over time thanks to a lot of users on here.

Who knew a forum full of drug users would be so beneficial for me  :nyan:

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20893188 - 11/26/14 01:31 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jimboob said:
It's two steps forward one step back, but I feel myself getting better over time thanks to a lot of users on here.





Fuck man, those words ring very true to me too. Thanks for saying them!


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #20894415 - 11/26/14 06:47 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

funny how a forum of shroomers can be resiliant support for its members.
I can't discount this group - I spend a lot of time "with" the comments you leave.
Still I would not imagine having you over or being a guest at your homes.
We fit together here largely because we are not really together - not together at the same time type of together.
like loose gears
given time to mesh
we do, our ideas and comments do -
out of sequence, and after a while,
we mesh well in this off-time shroomy way.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20895812 - 11/27/14 05:08 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

lol ..having dinner, being a guest. being a dinner guest. That's what often people say about someone 'I would invite him/her as a dinner guest'--meaning they are interesting people etc. Whilst others no

I recently watched this programme about posh people, and it is inspiring me to maybe do a blog about it. These posh gits were reading this book all about 'manners'. IE when you see these old fashioned films like Emma' 'Sense and Sensibility' etc it's all about the posh and how they look at how they and others act in social gatherings. it is all so STIFF. Down to the very colour you might wear, a gesture, and so on. IF you did one thing they'd consider wrong at the dinner table, 'bad manners', you would be sticking out like a sore thumb and gossiped about. How you held you knife, your spoon, how you eat, conversed. The OCCASION would be a freaking MINEFIELD of traps that could expose you as being 'lesser' than their shitty arses.
Is that not the source of MASKS?? When we here thinkers over the western history, the Freuds, a;; the males with beards, WHO are they speaking to? Surely it is the rich gits! We--the mob/great unwashed/stock/useless eaters, the masses--are SO out of their 'league' that we are irredeemable in their judgemental eyes. Less evolved.

These shits with their pretentiousmanners poncing about when they are responsible for the impoverishment of much of the world they have robbed and plundered from other humans and all other species.

Edited by zzripz (11/27/14 05:11 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #20901124 - 11/28/14 04:55 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I guess you are easily triggered into class diatribes.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflinePed
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob] * 1
    #20902674 - 11/28/14 10:43 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> I have been battling depression for about ten years now, a battle that I've fought with all sorts of counter productive addictions.  Compared to these people I feel so dirty and broken. I can somewhat enjoy myself some of the time, but most of the time I'm not as peppy and light hearted as these people. I try and seem like I'm having a good time with her familly, while I actually just want to go home. Having to put on a mask and pretend to be okay wears me down so fast, and it's starting to show.

This is the synopsis of my life's past 20 years as well.  It's cost me jobs, relationships, friends, a home, pretty much everything. 

I realize you're not asking for advice, but seeking the company of others with depression can be good for the soul.  Only people who experience depression understand what depression actually is.  Depression is an insidious and silent destroyer; it robs a person of their whole being one piece at a time. 


>> I know I need to put down the drugs and take better care of myself, and I'm working on that I really am, but in the mean time I wish I had some space to take off my mask. Between all my obligations (work, family, personal responsibilities)  I have no time to live out the way I actually feel inside.

Not having this space is like being in a pressure cooker.  I used to work in the music industry as a piano salesman for Steinway & Sons.  Their pianos start at $60,000, and go up into the hundreds of thousands.  That means my clients were, by and large, extremely wealthy people who expect a certain degree of social acumen, charm, and flattery, all of which I had to fake.

Most of the time, I felt like punching my clients in the face or telling them to "go find a fucking soul."  I gave oscar-worthy performances day in and day out, but that career ultimately ended abruptly when I lost my shit and went on a rampage throwing chairs around the store and ranting like a madman. I was set off by a client who wanted a $140,000 concert grand piano--which was created over the course of two years by some of the most gifted craftsman in the history of the world--"to fuck on".  This rich asshole was bragging about how his boots were made from the skin of an endangered lizard, and all he wanted to do with such a spectacular instrument was ruin it with hooker juice.  Fuck that guy.

If you can't find time to be true to yourself, it will catch up to you, and it will cost you.


>> I think having to fake it does more damage than my actual depression. Having to suck it up and go to work, and smile in front of these people so they don't think my girl is dating a fuck up, pretending like I'm happy is the most stressful of stressors.

>> It just sucks you know? Feels like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. My girl is the greatest and pours her god damn heart into everything she does for me, and here I am feeling like a turd.

I know exactly how this feels.



--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20902811 - 11/28/14 11:18 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I realize you're not asking for advice, but seeking the company of others with depression can be good for the soul.  Only people who experience depression understand what depression actually is.  Depression is an insidious and silent destroyer; it robs a person of their whole being one piece at a time. 

I agree.  I agree.  I agree. 

and

It's good also to seek the company of someone who's not depressed but have been in the past.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineSpacerific
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob] * 1
    #20907620 - 11/30/14 09:58 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jimboob said:
I have been battling depression for about ten years now



So how about you give that conflict a rest, all that battle? How about you try something more peaceful and integrative, and simply design around it instead? Work with it?

Quote:

A battle that I've fought with all sorts of counter productive addictions. Compared to these people I feel so dirty and broken.



So feel dirty and broken for a while. What do you think will happen if you do?

I've never seen emotions rise up for no good reason. If you feel dirty and broken, you're IMO supposed to go into it for a while, see why, accept it, some crap might have happened in your life, you'll process, it, cry through it, be sad for a while FIND OUT WHO YOUR REAL FRIENDS ARE and then be done with it.

MOST of the struggle is in basically, fear of feeling negative emotions. I've spent two fucking months here with a depressed emotionally disturbed girl, and for two months I've seen her distract herself and be fake and non-present, because she simply doesn't want to break down and cry for a few hours. I've looked at her and into her, the way the LSD and mescaline showed me how to look, and I've seen say, 6-12 hours' crying worth of negative emotions. That's it. Cry for 6-12 hours (over some days and weeks, not all at once) and you're in the clear. Emotions go from your abdomen up and out, you express, are held in some warm arms of someone who understands you, and your channel is clear for new and nicer emotions.

But she simply didn't want to do that. No, I don't want to feel sad now (although I am, and for good reason) so I'll nervously smoke and watch some series. Nervously smoke and play some shit video game. Nervously this, nervously that. TWO MONTHS of this, that I've been here, to avoid a few hours of feeling bad. And I'm sure she's been doing it for years more before I got here, and will probably continue to do it long after I leave.

BTW I've sometimes seen in my abs, that very same kind of emotions. I've had zero problems expelling and expressing them. If it takes a few days of feeling like shit, I'll feel like shit and move on. If it takes crying, I'll break down and cry like a bitch, and be done with it. Some may say it's a wuss thing to do. I say on the contrary, smoking, popping pills and distracting with porn and video games and electronics is the wuss reaction.

Quote:

I can somewhat enjoy myself some of the time, but most of the time I'm not as peppy and light hearted as these people.



So don't be.

Start being yourself. Allow yourself to be grumpy, show REAL emotions, even if they're negative, and EVERYBODY will like and respect you more.

Just so you know it's not at all possible to "fake" being happy. You can try (as you are) and waste enormous energy on it, and EVERYBODY that's at all present, will know you're actually not happy, you're faking it, they probably ask you about it wanting to sincerely help and when you say "Oh, nothing, I'm OK" they naturally resent you.

Everybody smells the lie. Everybody. They may not know exactly what's up, but they instinctively know and feel that you don't trust them enough to show yourself for real, as you are, sadness and all. And because you don't show your real self, they don't trust you.

Very hard to like people you don't trust.

Quote:

I try and seem like I'm having a good time with her family, while I actually just want to go home.



So go home. Start speaking your actual mind. Hey do you want to come with us to do this and this? NO, actually, I WOULDN'T. Give or don't give reasons, that's up to you, but DO WHAT YOU LIKE, not what you keep telling yourself that others expect from you.

Every time you step on your own feelings to fit some expectation, you are basically not living life. What good is life, if you like sea and oceans, and instead of going there to enjoy them, yo always go into the mountains because you think X or Y likes that more? Fuck X and Y with a stick. What YOU like matters, first and always.


Quote:

Having to put on a mask and pretend to be okay wears me down so fast, and it's starting to show.



Yes it does. Because you shouldn't be wearing masks in the first place. And it's not "starting" to show. It's always been showing. At no point are you fooling anybody into thinking you're ok, if you're faking it. It can't be done. And your attempts to do it aren't just wearing you out, it's wearing them out as well. They feel the tension, the way you twist yourself into pretzels trying to seem something you're not, and that tension is extremely annoying. They may not show it, out of politeness or whatever (which I don't support btw, I think it's destructive if used that way) but I assure you they feel it and are annoyed by it.

Quote:

I know I need to put down the drugs and take better care of myself, and I'm working on that I really am, but in the mean time I wish I had some space to take off my mask.






Take it off NOW.



Quote:

Between all my obligations (work, family, personal responsibilities)  I have no time to live out the way I actually feel inside.



Then die. Life lived as a complete lie is a waste of time.

What do you mean "you have no time" to live as you feel inside? What exactly is more important to you, than being true to how you feel inside? In other words, what gizmos does that job buy you, what plastic toys, that is of better and more value to you, than respecting your own emotions?

It's far, far better to be poor and true to yourself, than financially OK and emotionally empty, troubled, fake. Take some time now to figure out these priorities, or continue to distract yourself with one more day of work, one more paycheck, one more fake vacation with the family where you lie through your teeth about your emotions, maybe after a few years of that you'll finally take some time. But I'd suggest you do it now. Today. This week. Now.

Quote:

I wish I could just cry and mope and bitch and scream and be a cranky asshole for no real reason other than that's how I feel right now. I wish I could do that without everyone asking me what's wrong. They mean well, but I don't want to tell then my life story, you know?



Stop wearing masks and lying to people.

Hmm, maybe size helps here.

Stop wearing masks and lying to people.


Then they'll stop asking you what's wrong. Hell I don't think I've been asked what's wrong more than once or twice this whole year, and those were times when something was indeed seriously wrong, externally, objectively. People don't ask why you're troubled unless you genuinely seem troubled. If you think they care enough to help then tell them and they'll give it a shot, if you think they don't care enough, then tell them you don't think they care enough and so it's not worth your time to tell them, OR say that it's nothing they can help with. They'll respect that WAY more than you saying "It's nothing." which is in fact straight up lying to their face. 

Quote:

I think having to fake it does more damage than my actual depression.



Who sold you on that idea, that you HAVE TO fake it?

Sounds to me like you've been watching too much advertising or something, Coca Cola ads where everyone drinks crap juice and keeps on smiling. Or reading too many of those Jehovah's Witnesses brochures, with illustrations where everyone is smiling, holding hands and lions eat grass instead of baby goats.

Study this here video, watch it every now and then, I think it's a great starting point of how to express in peace:



Show this vid to your girl, discuss it. Tell her how it REALLY makes you feel. Either to your gf, or do it here, or with anyone that you feel comfy showing real emotions with. Oh and your girl is merely a source of stress, if you don't feel safe sharing your real emotions with her. Better a fatter dumber one that you feel OK around, instead a great lovely girl with a great family, that you feel like shit around.

Quote:

Having to suck it up and go to work, and smile in front of these people so they don't think my girl is dating a fuck up, pretending like I'm happy is the most stressful of stressors.



Well whenever you get tired of the fronts and masks, maybe consider starting to be genuine. Be a fuckup for a while. What do you think will happen? Go to work, express to these people that that girl, out of all the males on the planet, has chosen to spend time with you, fuck up as you may be. Sincere fuck up is LIGHT YEARS better than dating a fake, afraid to be himself. 

Quote:

It just sucks you know? Feels like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. My girl is the greatest and pours her god damn heart into everything she does for me, and here I am feeling like a turd.



Feel like a turd. Express it. Express why. You'll quickly see whether the reasons hold water or not, and you'll advance your process. Trying to always hold shit in is like a heart that's afraid to pump, because the blood might have toxins in it. Well THE way to get rid of toxins is to do your process. Pump. Pulse. Move. Express. Do your thing, whatever your inner emotional compass tells you to do.

You ARE stuck between a rock and a hard place, but they are completely, 100% self-imposed. Drop them out of your hands and you'll be super free to move wherever you wish. Just stop lying to people about your emotional state.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16

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OfflineGoldenEye
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific]
    #20907632 - 11/30/14 10:01 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Talk to them about it!

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific] * 4
    #20908117 - 11/30/14 12:42 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

:facepalm:

Okay guys, this advice "take off the mask and just be honest with people" is a great way to lose your job, complicate your relationships, alienate your friends/family, and destabilize your life.  When you are real with people, they become scared and confused, because authenticity in others forces a confrontation with their own insincerity and disingenuous performance.  Idealistic fantasy-fixes are not going to help the OP, nor will they help anyone with depression, itself a medical condition with a physiological substrate.

The incorrect advice is to impose one's depression on others, demanding that they adjust to it.  The correct advice is to seek out like-minded people who can recognize, appreciate, and feel empathy for depression as it just is.  Most of all, non-depressed people should not offer advice to depressed people under any circumstances.  It always makes matters worse. 

People who are not depressed do not have anything to say about depression to those who suffer from it, and that's probably why the OP explicitly stated that he is not asking for advice, just sharing how he feels.  He needs a hug, not a litany of instructions and pseudo-inspirational rhetoric.


--------------------


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OfflineSpacerific
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20908208 - 11/30/14 01:09 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Mate, you should probably know that OP and I have interacted before (actually on this very topic) in other threads and for the most part we see eye to eye. I'll wait for him to call my advice useless and counterproductive, if that's really the case here, because it was aimed at him not at you.

Until then feel free to contribute your own advice to the thread, as opposed to critiquing mine.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific]
    #20908231 - 11/30/14 01:17 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I'm thinking about the broader audience, and about the practical realities of depression in general.  That's my priority.


--------------------


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20908331 - 11/30/14 01:43 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Dude my thinking is a bit differently than how I see you interpret it.

The very "faking it" that OP mentions, that takes a lot of energy to keep up. I know about it, as I was going through the exact same patterns about a decade ago. So I do know first hand what I'm talking about.

The "faking it" not only drains a ton of energy that could be used for healing and more positive behavior patterns, but also endlessly postpones catharsis and conflicts that, if they were to happen, would move things along, get them unstuck.

If someone fakes happiness in a marriage, job, house, whatever, then it can be stayed in for years. It will be empty and fake, people will be nervous and passive-aggressive, but it can be stayed in for fucking ever. If one expresses that one is pissed off, unsatisfied, it's not good enough, it fucking sucks, then conflicts will arise that will move one to another house/job/marriage, where chances are, they'll be way happier. I know that was the case for me. As long as I tried to "fake it", act and give the impression that nothing was wrong, I was completely miserable. Nowadays I'm not, but I've had to move FAR away from that particular context, and I'm pretty sure if I went back (to study and work in fields that don't fit my personality at all) I'd be miserable again.

Faking good vibes 24/7 is IMO definitely NOT a long term solution. If it were, it would have taken OP places. As it is, it's just draining, delaying, going nowhere. It's counterproductive.

Oh and a job where one feels like shit is IMO absolutely not worth keeping, not long term. I'm not saying OP should quit, but if there's anything else he'd rather be doing, he'd be well advised to start planning for a career switch, at some point down the line. It will make this job a lot more easy to take, if it's limited, with a clear deadline, as opposed as being perceived as constant drudgery with no end in sight.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20908340 - 11/30/14 01:46 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

@ jimbob and all the others outta there: as boring as it sounds, but talking about it is a vital step, same goes for recognizing and accepting that one is ill. So u already can be proud of you! I don t know your relation to your surrounding social network, but thete s one thing i have to warn u about: if u have " your coming out", it will release u at first, no more masks! Take me as i am. But the üre is a danger in it. Sometimes feelin urged to carry the mask for ppl near to you is your motivation for holding on! For " functioning" it s so seductive, givin up, if they know. So u let yourself go and depression s on top of u.

I just want u to be aware of this danger!

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped] * 4
    #20908357 - 11/30/14 01:49 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I am inclined to agree strongly with Ped.  I would wager that Spacerific has never suffered from chronic depression, and consequently Ped is absolutely correct in stating that someone in that position has no business whatever giving advice to someone who has suffered from it.

The notion that taking one's mask off and engaging in full disclosure is the solution is a very sad and inappropriate mistake, as the situation on the ground is far more complex than such a trite and simplistic suggestion would indicate.  This faking and take-off-your-mask advice is frankly way off-base.  It has nothing to do with real depression.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20908501 - 11/30/14 02:31 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
:facepalm:

Okay guys, this advice "take off the mask and just be honest with people" is a great way to lose your job, complicate your relationships, alienate your friends/family, and destabilize your life.  When you are real with people, they become scared and confused, because authenticity in others forces a confrontation with their own insincerity and disingenuous performance.  Idealistic fantasy-fixes are not going to help the OP, nor will they help anyone with depression, itself a medical condition with a physiological substrate.

The incorrect advice is to impose one's depression on others, demanding that they adjust to it.  The correct advice is to seek out like-minded people who can recognize, appreciate, and feel empathy for depression as it just is.  Most of all, non-depressed people should not offer advice to depressed people under any circumstances.  It always makes matters worse. 

People who are not depressed do not have anything to say about depression to those who suffer from it, and that's probably why the OP explicitly stated that he is not asking for advice, just sharing how he feels.  He needs a hug, not a litany of instructions and pseudo-inspirational rhetoric.





There is nothing here that I don't agree with fully and know from personal experience. :satansmoking::mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific] * 1
    #20909848 - 11/30/14 07:42 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> If someone fakes happiness in a marriage, job, house, whatever, then it can be stayed in for years. It will be empty and fake, people will be nervous and passive-aggressive, but it can be stayed in for fucking ever. If one expresses that one is pissed off, unsatisfied, it's not good enough, it fucking sucks, then conflicts will arise that will move one to another house/job/marriage, where chances are, they'll be way happier.

>> Faking good vibes 24/7 is IMO definitely NOT a long term solution. If it were, it would have taken OP places. As it is, it's just draining, delaying, going nowhere. It's counterproductive.

Of course this is true -- for the average person who does not suffer from depression. 

When a person's low mood is situational, i.e., because they are unsatisfied in a marriage, job, or house, then authentically relating to those realities is the way to precipitate an appropriate resolution.  Continuing to wear a mask in these situations only worsens the matter as you said, placing an escalating burden on the individual and increasing the likelihood of an explosive outcome.

It's when a person's depressive disorder corrupts their satisfaction in their marriage, job, or house that authentically relating in all situations becomes dismally counterproductive.  Simply dropping all pretence and allowing that dissatisfaction to guide one's behaviour is a surefire way to unnecessarily alienate all the otherwise positive aspects of one's life. 

This is difficult to understand unless you have direct experience with major depressive disorder, because there just isn't a way to effectively communicate what it's like to be caught in the paradox of appreciating what you have, knowing that it is good, but finding it utterly bitter-tasting in its every manifestation nonetheless.

The OP exhibits this paradox as follows:

>> They are some of the nicest people I've met. They are so light hearted, happy and family oriented.

>> I try and seem like I'm having a good time with her familly, while I actually just want to go home.

It is virtually impossible to relate to this predicament authentically and without masks or pretence, because it is virtually impossible for individuals without direct experience in it to understand what it means.  Even if her family is the sweetest, kindest, most understanding family in America, telling them "you are all such nice people and I admire you all, but I just want to go home because I am incapable of enjoying myself due to a mood disorder", chances are this will be the beginning of the end of his relationship with her family.

Depression remains a heavily stigmatized illness.  Even those who believe themselves to be above such prejudice are usually not, and typically find themselves helplessly confused when they encounter someone caught in its grip.  Generally speaking, people don't enjoy feeling helpless and confused, and so they are liable to distance themselves from people they don't easily understand, i.e., someone with major depressive disorder. 


>> The "faking it" not only drains a ton of energy that could be used for healing and more positive behavior patterns, but also endlessly postpones catharsis and conflicts that, if they were to happen, would move things along, get them unstuck.

For those without depression, dropping the mask might facilitate the healing and positive behaviour necessary to dislodge themselves from an unsatisfactory predicament, but people who suffer from depression just don't have this option.  Every situation is a predicament to a depressed individual, and when these individuals undergo a catharsis, the depression remains thereafter.  A major component of depression is its utter irresolution.

For those with depression, faking it is an unfortunately necessarily evil if it's their intention to function in conventional society.  To carry this burden, it is necessary for depressed individuals to find people and places where they can be authentic, and this is always found in the company of other depressives who can see themselves in the other's paradox and vice versa.

What differentiates clinical depression from ordinary situational discontentment is its unresponsiveness to external circumstances.  Lifestyle changes, behavioural changes, cognitive changes, and so forth, do not have a meaningful role in treating clinical depression, because clinical depression is just that: clinical.  Unlike those with a mild, situational depression, no amount of positive thinking or self-talk is going to help someone with clinical depression, nor will any amount of exercise, vitamin D, B12, fruits and vegetables, or sexual encounters.  "Healthy body, healthy mind" is a hollow adage to clinical depressives.  Such individuals require pharmaceutical intervention combined with structured psychotherapy, but more than anything else they require the understanding and support of other depressives first, and of their friends or family second.

Speaking as a life-long depressive myself (bipolar II, in my case), there is nothing more unhelpful than the advice of non-depressed people.  In fact, when non-depressed people try to give their advice, by the end of it I usually feel more isolated and more depressed.  It makes us feel small, helpless, broken, because in our hearts we know we can't put your advice into practice and enjoy any success, and we know that explaining this to you will only amplify the disconnect.  Any depressive sufferer will say the same.  We don't want advice: we want to be heard; we want to know that other people understand how we feel without judging us or trying to fix us (trying to fix us is basically the same as judging us).  That is why my initial reply to the OP placed an emphasis on relating my own experiences with depression, its effects and consequences, such that he needn't feel alone in his struggle.

Quote:

From mentalhealth.com:


During the dark and fear-filled times that a person is enduring, do not give advice on how to cope. Yes, the person should “smarten up, appreciate all life's blessings, pull up bootstraps and get on with life.” No one wants to do that more than the depressed person. But it is not possible at the moment.




Quote:

From helpguide.org:


Depression is a serious condition. Don’t underestimate the seriousness of depression. Depression drains a person’s energy, optimism, and motivation. Your depressed loved one can’t just “snap out of it” by sheer force of will.

You can’t “fix” someone else’s depression. Don’t try to rescue your loved one from depression. It’s not up to you to fix the problem, nor can you. You’re not to blame for your loved one’s depression or responsible for his or her happiness (or lack thereof). Ultimately, recovery is in the hands of the depressed person.

[Remember] that being a compassionate listener is much more important than giving advice.




Quote:

From Boggle The Owl (depression blog):


1) Don’t try to give them advice. I know this is coming from an owl who gives depressed people advice! But I only do that for people who have asked for it. Unless they specifically say to you, “What do you think about all this?” or “What do you think I should do?” then advice is not really what they’re looking for, and you don’t need to feel like you have to come up with any.




I feel very strongly about this, because there are few things more damaging to clinical depressives than the advice of non-depressives.  Every word of unsolicited advice from non-depressed people is like salt on an open wound, and each unhelpful tidbit is like a reminder that we will never be normal, we will never be functional, and we will never be able to cope with life like they can.  There's no doubt in my mind that the well-meaning advice of non-depressed people has been a major contributing factor in suicide.  That is why I implore anyone struggling with depression to categorically ignore the advice of others, and to seek the company of other depressives while pursuing professional assistance.


--------------------


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20910012 - 11/30/14 08:36 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Eh, I'd say that being authentic with your family and friends can be a real game changer - maybe it's time to dump the perfect girlfriend with a perfect family and meet a chick that's kind of miserable and struggling to get by from a depression support group :shrug:... You don't actually need those people to survive in conventional society, but you may need to fake it and play cheerful to get your paycheck, for at least awhile.  There are plenty of professions where you can be negative, cold, and hurt people's feelings to win an argument or close a deal if that's what you really desire.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20910138 - 11/30/14 09:19 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

When I first started successfully working with my depression I accepted that I was sad. Taking off the mask did not mean the demons started flying out and I showed people my worst side. That happened often enough when I was faking it. Those attitudes are also the mask. When a person is ready the only place where a mask may need to be worn is at work dealing with the public, and that is a necessary and understandable fact.

How should a sad person act? Why, sad of course. :smile:

Being sad in and of itself isn't such a bad thing to share with sad people or a therapist, friend, etc., but also not such a bad thing to be alone with... and not a bad thing to be around people in general. I remember going out to crowded restaurants by myself to get a booth and have dinner. That was part of my self determined therapy. Doing that in public, not communicating with anyone but the waitress was a step up from doing it alone. I started being sad at work (mostly not working with the public). Females in particular responded to it but the relations were better all around. Eventually I was being sad all the time, which was great because it was real, and oddly my social life was improved. I found out who my friends were and who they weren't. I found that when a person senses "authentic sadness" they're likely to respond to it as best they can, offering whatever help they are able, without me even asking.

Eventually, hopefully, a person will see that the masks are no longer helpful. They were helpful, but not any longer. Being fake is eventually a step back from simply being depressed. It's not the depression itself, but the cognitive dissonance of fakery that becomes the main problem. The mask is at first the temporary solution, but then the problem, and that's when it needs to start coming off.

The mask comes off when a person becomes convinced it's detrimental. This happens when a person sees there is something more there worth being even if it's not going to make them a witty rich superstar. It progresses when a person sees in motion that their own integrity is worth more than the opinions of others. I'm guessing OP is close to this point. He has the idea it's detrimental. Before, he probably thought it was beneficial and now he's undecided.


--------------------
rahz

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I am      I feel      I do     I love I speak    I see    I know


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20910201 - 11/30/14 09:43 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> If someone fakes happiness in a marriage, job, house, whatever, then it can be stayed in for years. It will be empty and fake, people will be nervous and passive-aggressive, but it can be stayed in for fucking ever. If one expresses that one is pissed off, unsatisfied, it's not good enough, it fucking sucks, then conflicts will arise that will move one to another house/job/marriage, where chances are, they'll be way happier.

>> Faking good vibes 24/7 is IMO definitely NOT a long term solution. If it were, it would have taken OP places. As it is, it's just draining, delaying, going nowhere. It's counterproductive.

Of course this is true -- for the average person who does not suffer from depression. 

When a person's low mood is situational, i.e., because they are unsatisfied in a marriage, job, or house, then authentically relating to those realities is the way to precipitate an appropriate resolution.  Continuing to wear a mask in these situations only worsens the matter as you said, placing an escalating burden on the individual and increasing the likelihood of an explosive outcome.

It's when a person's depressive disorder corrupts their satisfaction in their marriage, job, or house that authentically relating in all situations becomes dismally counterproductive.  Simply dropping all pretence and allowing that dissatisfaction to guide one's behaviour is a surefire way to unnecessarily alienate all the otherwise positive aspects of one's life. 

This is difficult to understand unless you have direct experience with major depressive disorder, because there just isn't a way to effectively communicate what it's like to be caught in the paradox of appreciating what you have, knowing that it is good, but finding it utterly bitter-tasting in its every manifestation nonetheless.

The OP exhibits this paradox as follows:

>> They are some of the nicest people I've met. They are so light hearted, happy and family oriented.

>> I try and seem like I'm having a good time with her familly, while I actually just want to go home.

It is virtually impossible to relate to this predicament authentically and without masks or pretence, because it is virtually impossible for individuals without direct experience in it to understand what it means.  Even if her family is the sweetest, kindest, most understanding family in America, telling them "you are all such nice people and I admire you all, but I just want to go home because I am incapable of enjoying myself due to a mood disorder", chances are this will be the beginning of the end of his relationship with her family.

Depression remains a heavily stigmatized illness.  Even those who believe themselves to be above such prejudice are usually not, and typically find themselves helplessly confused when they encounter someone caught in its grip.  Generally speaking, people don't enjoy feeling helpless and confused, and so they are liable to distance themselves from people they don't easily understand, i.e., someone with major depressive disorder. 


>> The "faking it" not only drains a ton of energy that could be used for healing and more positive behavior patterns, but also endlessly postpones catharsis and conflicts that, if they were to happen, would move things along, get them unstuck.

For those without depression, dropping the mask might facilitate the healing and positive behaviour necessary to dislodge themselves from an unsatisfactory predicament, but people who suffer from depression just don't have this option.  Every situation is a predicament to a depressed individual, and when these individuals undergo a catharsis, the depression remains thereafter.  A major component of depression is its utter irresolution.

For those with depression, faking it is an unfortunately necessarily evil if it's their intention to function in conventional society.  To carry this burden, it is necessary for depressed individuals to find people and places where they can be authentic, and this is always found in the company of other depressives who can see themselves in the other's paradox and vice versa.

What differentiates clinical depression from ordinary situational discontentment is its unresponsiveness to external circumstances.  Lifestyle changes, behavioural changes, cognitive changes, and so forth, do not have a meaningful role in treating clinical depression, because clinical depression is just that: clinical.  Unlike those with a mild, situational depression, no amount of positive thinking or self-talk is going to help someone with clinical depression, nor will any amount of exercise, vitamin D, B12, fruits and vegetables, or sexual encounters.  "Healthy body, healthy mind" is a hollow adage to clinical depressives.  Such individuals require pharmaceutical intervention combined with structured psychotherapy, but more than anything else they require the understanding and support of other depressives first, and of their friends or family second.

Speaking as a life-long depressive myself (bipolar II, in my case), there is nothing more unhelpful than the advice of non-depressed people.  In fact, when non-depressed people try to give their advice, by the end of it I usually feel more isolated and more depressed.  It makes us feel small, helpless, broken, because in our hearts we know we can't put your advice into practice and enjoy any success, and we know that explaining this to you will only amplify the disconnect.  Any depressive sufferer will say the same.  We don't want advice: we want to be heard; we want to know that other people understand how we feel without judging us or trying to fix us (trying to fix us is basically the same as judging us).  That is why my initial reply to the OP placed an emphasis on relating my own experiences with depression, its effects and consequences, such that he needn't feel alone in his struggle.

Quote:

From mentalhealth.com:


During the dark and fear-filled times that a person is enduring, do not give advice on how to cope. Yes, the person should “smarten up, appreciate all life's blessings, pull up bootstraps and get on with life.” No one wants to do that more than the depressed person. But it is not possible at the moment.




Quote:

From helpguide.org:


Depression is a serious condition. Don’t underestimate the seriousness of depression. Depression drains a person’s energy, optimism, and motivation. Your depressed loved one can’t just “snap out of it” by sheer force of will.

You can’t “fix” someone else’s depression. Don’t try to rescue your loved one from depression. It’s not up to you to fix the problem, nor can you. You’re not to blame for your loved one’s depression or responsible for his or her happiness (or lack thereof). Ultimately, recovery is in the hands of the depressed person.

[Remember] that being a compassionate listener is much more important than giving advice.




Quote:

From Boggle The Owl (depression blog):


1) Don’t try to give them advice. I know this is coming from an owl who gives depressed people advice! But I only do that for people who have asked for it. Unless they specifically say to you, “What do you think about all this?” or “What do you think I should do?” then advice is not really what they’re looking for, and you don’t need to feel like you have to come up with any.




I feel very strongly about this, because there are few things more damaging to clinical depressives than the advice of non-depressives.  Every word of unsolicited advice from non-depressed people is like salt on an open wound, and each unhelpful tidbit is like a reminder that we will never be normal, we will never be functional, and we will never be able to cope with life like they can.  There's no doubt in my mind that the well-meaning advice of non-depressed people has been a major contributing factor in suicide.  That is why I implore anyone struggling with depression to categorically ignore the advice of others, and to seek the company of other depressives while pursuing professional assistance.





From my experience with lifelong depression I can only agree.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #20910267 - 11/30/14 10:00 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

As I see depression, it is simply being emotionally (and electrically) drained, and persistently performing behaviors, going through patterns, that keep the energy down. This means constantly, habitually disconnecting from emotions (well, trying to, expending energy in order to, because the task isn't really possible, emotions always find ways to express).

I'm not in the game of diagnosing and labeling major, minor and medium depression. I for one think they're on a continuum, and one bad habit (like faking a better state, for the sake of appearances) may be a nuisance in the short term, but can be a complete disaster and end up in pathology, if persisted in for months and years.

I don't know what proponents of the "keep the mask up" approach would advise that OP should do, but I see this very mask, this very attempt to constantly fake cheerfulness, as the very meat of the problem. While this catharsis is being engaged in, things are stuck in an emotional limbo. There's neither actual pleasure, recharging the batteries, nor is there the collapse that, if it were allowed to happen, would move things along in some way.

I've been in environments (usually around family or extended family), that I knew can't handle me the way I am, they never could, and so over the years I've developed habits like OP describes, to hide and mask myself while around these people. If I stay a few months in those places, eventually this wears me out, I start feeling more gloomy, staying indoors more, then getting less sunlight, the kind of behavior that if persisted in, would lead to depression. Well as soon as I started dropping masks, differences of lifestyle and opinions became apparent and clashed and I felt compelled to move out of that environment, as the real emotions were clashing with each other. Once I moved, things got better. Had I continued to hold up masks, I'd have drained my energy more and more and got stuck in depression. There's a certain drain of energy when we go against ourselves (I mean half of one's neurology thinks and feels a certain way, the other lies about it) that just drains. We start exhibiting inconsistency and dissonance in voice, eye contact, can't look people straight in the eye nor speak with full conviction, as we continue to carry on a certain amount of inner conflict. Most people feel this kind of vibe and don't respond well to it. That's why I recommend against it.

Maybe it doesn't work exactly the same for OP, but IMO it's absolutely worth a shot, see how it works out for a week or two. Start using words like pissed off. Bored. Angry. Annoyed. Especially those that go towards anger (on the anger - anxiety spectrum) will also hold a lot of movement, energy. When people are bored and annoyed and admit it, generally they'll feel compelled to start making changes. While they're deluding themselves and others that it's still acceptable, they find excuses not to.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific]
    #20910417 - 11/30/14 10:49 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Sure why not?  Unless  this is your third, or fourth etc.  failure.  Many people who live with lifelong depression have tried to get real with family ect. many many times over the years.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific]
    #20910419 - 11/30/14 10:50 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Spacerific said:


I don't know what proponents of the "keep the mask up" approach would advise that OP should do, but I see this very mask, this very attempt to constantly fake cheerfulness, as the very meat of the problem. While this catharsis is being engaged in, things are stuck in an emotional limbo. There's neither actual pleasure, recharging the batteries, nor is there the collapse that, if it were allowed to happen, would move things along in some way.





Odd word choice.  :strokebeard:  A cathartic experience would be genuinely expressing all the pent up emotions, like one might experience during the purge of an ayahuasca trip.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific]
    #20910427 - 11/30/14 10:52 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I can see situations that would represent major hurdles for a depressed person where a change of environment would be suitable. Being around people with masks makes it difficult to not wear ones own. I guess I've been fortunate as far as family and work peers goes. Work has always been a mixed bag, but that's all it has to be. I wouldn't assume OPs girlfriend's family would act adversely to him taking off the masks. I don't think we know enough about that. They might end up being a great source of support. :shrug:

I will also point out that depression itself is not draining. It's conservative! The drain comes from the cognitive dissonance. The brain expends lots of energy solving problems. Not solving a problem in a timely manner increases anxiety and the desire to try harder which eventually leads to depression in an attempt to conserve energy.

For me admitting I was bored, angry, annoyed, usually led to getting drunk. Problem solved. Fuck this, let's get drunk! I hit rock bottom in a physical sense and didn't have much choice but to make a drastic change. The feeling of bored has been gone completely since I first felt like I had a path out... which was not the same week or year I quit drinking. I quit drinking so I wouldn't die. The majority of the anger and frustration died off pretty quickly as well. I still deal with a variety of frustrations which seems like life to me. I'm rarely angry about it.

Of course, hitting rock bottom like I did isn't ideal... just effective if suicide is avoided. I was depressed for about 20 years.


--------------------
rahz

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I am      I feel      I do     I love I speak    I see    I know


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Rahz]
    #20910658 - 12/01/14 12:19 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
When I first started successfully working with my depression I accepted that I was sad. Taking off the mask did not mean the demons started flying out and I showed people my worst side. That happened often enough when I was faking it. Those attitudes are also the mask. When a person is ready the only place where a mask may need to be worn is at work dealing with the public, and that is a necessary and understandable fact.

How should a sad person act? Why, sad of course. :smile:

Being sad in and of itself isn't such a bad thing to share with sad people or a therapist, friend, etc., but also not such a bad thing to be alone with... and not a bad thing to be around people in general. I remember going out to crowded restaurants by myself to get a booth and have dinner. That was part of my self determined therapy. Doing that in public, not communicating with anyone but the waitress was a step up from doing it alone. I started being sad at work (mostly not working with the public). Females in particular responded to it but the relations were better all around. Eventually I was being sad all the time, which was great because it was real, and oddly my social life was improved. I found out who my friends were and who they weren't. I found that when a person senses "authentic sadness" they're likely to respond to it as best they can, offering whatever help they are able, without me even asking.

Eventually, hopefully, a person will see that the masks are no longer helpful. They were helpful, but not any longer. Being fake is eventually a step back from simply being depressed. It's not the depression itself, but the cognitive dissonance of fakery that becomes the main problem. The mask is at first the temporary solution, but then the problem, and that's when it needs to start coming off.

The mask comes off when a person becomes convinced it's detrimental. This happens when a person sees there is something more there worth being even if it's not going to make them a witty rich superstar. It progresses when a person sees in motion that their own integrity is worth more than the opinions of others. I'm guessing OP is close to this point. He has the idea it's detrimental. Before, he probably thought it was beneficial and now he's undecided.




I liked your post a lot. I hope I can realize that it's a detrimental thinking pattern and start to make changes. I wish I could just "will" myself outta it. :sad:


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #20910708 - 12/01/14 12:45 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Spacerific said:


I don't know what proponents of the "keep the mask up" approach would advise that OP should do, but I see this very mask, this very attempt to constantly fake cheerfulness, as the very meat of the problem. While this catharsis is being engaged in, things are stuck in an emotional limbo. There's neither actual pleasure, recharging the batteries, nor is there the collapse that, if it were allowed to happen, would move things along in some way.





Odd word choice.  :strokebeard:  A cathartic experience would be genuinely expressing all the pent up emotions, like one might experience during the purge of an ayahuasca trip.



Oh, my bad, I meant distraction, delay, avoidance, not catharsis. I used that word in that post, must have stuck to my fingers or something :lol:

Quote:


I will also point out that depression itself is not draining. It's conservative! The drain comes from the cognitive dissonance.



Well depression may start as an energy saving strategy that the brain uses, at least initially. From what I've seen however, after staying in that state for too long, it's also a bias towards excessive thinking, in order to avoid physical action. Like you provide the depressed person with an idea, hey let's do this, and if you look with the right kind of eyes you'll actually be able to see a delay, them going inside their head, scan the idea for all the possible risks and dangers, amplify them, generate anxiety, do all kinds of operations behinds the scenes, in order to then be able to come up with excuses like "oh that won't work because xyz". There's always this kind of delay, as new ideas are scanned and excuses are formed behind the scenes. Negative aspects are amplified, in order to justify remaining idle.

So in order to remain in the physically inactive states that are characteristic of depression, one expends a lot of thinking, mental energy, simply rewiring energy that should have went into limb movement and exploration, over to mental simulations. That's IMO a big component of it, excessive scanning for danger, worrying, etc. Electrical impulses that should be sent to run the limbs and movement, are spent (wasted) running excessive thinking alone, while remaining idle.

This also is consistent with the fact that an Omega 6 excess in the diet (from grains and grain fed beef) will have an inflammatory effect, and an inflamed brain will start to "misfire" in this way, over-analyzing for risks and danger, draining itself in this way, wasting neurotransmitters and nutrients that then leave the whole system with very little energy.

That's my take on it, and that's why I think taking masks off, any kind of reduction in brain games, inner conflict and duplicity, will increase brain cohesion, synchronization and provide new energy to resume normal functioning. To anyone doubting these observations, by all means take some psychs, low to medium dose to still be able to socialize, and go have a convo with a depressed person. Once you see the excuses, the half second delay to everything, how negative thoughts and fears form in real time, you'll see what an active thought process goes into maintaining the apathy and sitting around, you'll see what I mean.

To get out of those loops, IMO the brain should be retrained for simpler, more straightforward actions, more direct. Running the parallel processing that's necessary to keep the masks up, the very drain that OP was describing, the pressure, that is the main part of the problem, as that's where the energy goes, that's why the depressed person feels drained both physically and emotionally. The negative moods have a lot to do with depleting neurotransmitters and nutrients in that way.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific] * 1
    #20910883 - 12/01/14 02:41 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

using food to explain 'depression' is same as psychiatry claiming it is a 'chemical imbalance' which as I have shown above is false.

I am not saying eating healthfully is not beneficial to health. But you cannot use bad food as some kind of further pseudoscience to explain mood states as though they are biophysical disease

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific] * 2
    #20911176 - 12/01/14 07:23 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I've been a major athlete all my life.  Training up to 6 hours a day in various disciplines.  Then hiking with my dogs up steep mountain trails here in town up to 15 miles per day.  I go to Burning Man have had very deeply emotional and physical relationships. 

Yet here I am.  Depressed.

I'm not saying you're wrong.  I'm not saying that because ultimately I don't know what's right or wrong.  I actually suspect it's some of both.  I've noticed over and over and over again that when people come out with black and white thinking on a subject they are usually at best only partially correct.  So often I feel like the only one willing to see both sides of the issue.
Am I just being egotistical? :imspecial:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/01/14 07:24 AM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #20911282 - 12/01/14 07:53 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, I feel that. Reality, life, is ambigous. Black white thinking goes 'he is evil' 'I am good' and that's that. yes I admit I do look at some people as evil, but I think it is not because they are 'psychos' like some are thinking it now, but because they have been abused
I feel this because I went through a phase, proper from about 11/12 till 15 when I had no interest in nature, and was getting a sadistic streak. LSD resolved a lot of that shit--that could have gone into worse areas, who knows? But when I look at some of these CEOs, politicians etc who just do not seem to give a shit about the natural world, and sadistically exploit others they see as not connected to them, I see where that may come from...

Crowley, who I dont like, was VERY abused at his poncy schools and by his parents for example. Hardbitten dogs often become hardbitten. But abuse can come in all shapes and forms.
You can be 'depressed' and you dont know why. A big part of mind control is obliterating memory.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20911303 - 12/01/14 07:59 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
using food to explain 'depression' is same as psychiatry claiming it is a 'chemical imbalance' which as I have shown above is false.



Mate, I'm not talking out of my arse here. Omega 3 added to the diet, in doses of at least 1000 mg of EPA per day, has been actually shown in studies to help with depression.



If the vid is too long, it explains what I said above. Omega 3 is antiinflammatory, omega 6 is inflammatory. We need both pretty much balanced around a 1:1 ratio in our diet, that's what we're optimized for. The modern diet, especially the SAD (Standard American Diet) works out to something like 1:17 ratio, extremely top heavy on inflammatory Omega 6, from all the grains.

Studies have looked into whether supplementing diet with Omega 3, to balance things out, has a measurable positive effect on depression, and indeed it does. Fun fact, I've also tried it for myself, going on and off that specific dose (1000 mg of EPA daily, 6 pills a day) and have found that yes, it DOES affect mood very much.

Quote:

I am not saying eating healthfully is not beneficial to health. But you cannot use bad food as some kind of further pseudoscience to explain mood states as though they are biophysical disease



Moods are CLOSELY related to what you eat. I don't know if you've had the chance to go through periods of horrible diet and then later shift to awesome natural foods, but I have, and repeatedly. Every single time (with some lag and delay, which is the time needed to actually deplete nutrients) mood went down with less nutritious diet. You CANNOT be happy and fulfilled living on coffee and donuts and Coca Cola, in the same way you could living on healthy protein, greens, healthy oils, nuts and seeds and so on.

Just curious, how do you expect the body to make things like GABA and Serotonin and Melatonin and all that complex chemical wizardry that the brain runs on, if the precursors for these molecules aren't in one's diet in sufficient amounts? From where I'm standing it's perfectly obvious that a well functioning brain has to be a well fed brain. There are clear mood consequences for failing to take in all that the body needs to fire on all cylinders.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander]
    #20911341 - 12/01/14 08:12 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I think the black and white thinking in this instance is that there aren't multiple ways depression can manifest.  In school, I had a roommate who had very irrational fears and could come up with a reason to opt out of doing anything that involved something other than sitting in his room, getting stoned, and listening to music. 

For you, it seems like you felt sad, maybe worthless/guilty, recurring thoughts of death/suicide.... but not the loss of interest, feeling dull, feeling fatigued, and not wanting to get out of bed, etc.  Two different behavior patterns, requiring different solutions, yet both called depression.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (12/01/14 08:54 AM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #20911366 - 12/01/14 08:23 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Yes, I feel that. Reality, life, is ambigous. Black white thinking goes 'he is evil' 'I am good' and that's that. yes I admit I do look at some people as evil, but I think it is not because they are 'psychos' like some are thinking it now, but because they have been abused
I feel this because I went through a phase, proper from about 11/12 till 15 when I had no interest in nature, and was getting a sadistic streak. LSD resolved a lot of that shit--that could have gone into worse areas, who knows? But when I look at some of these CEOs, politicians etc who just do not seem to give a shit about the natural world, and sadistically exploit others they see as not connected to them, I see where that may come from...

Crowley, who I dont like, was VERY abused at his poncy schools and by his parents for example. Hardbitten dogs often become hardbitten. But abuse can come in all shapes and forms.
You can be 'depressed' and you dont know why. A big part of mind control is obliterating memory.




I agree.  I have noticed IRL and here that when I meet a depressed person they often have had a very dysfunctional childhood without the basic supports in physical and emotional nurturing. (And while in my world view almost nobody got a fully functional/supportive childhood many get their basic needs of trust and physical nurturing met, especially at the most critical developmental stages.) 

Often instead they perceived threat and lack of physical emotional security.

To a developing brain that is a disaster imo.  This of course would apply to the rich and powerful too.  I really don't think that very often those we deem "evil" were totally constructed genetically.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/01/14 08:26 AM)

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander]
    #20911626 - 12/01/14 09:48 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

True. A lot of these rich people, especially in England get sent away to boarding schools where they then are surrounded by the very sadistic system which loves war, and exploiting half or more of the world's peoples, and of course all species, and nature. They are up to their eyeballs in all that indoctrination

When I was about 12/13 the only plant I wanted in the house was a Venus Fly Trap FFS!

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20911812 - 12/01/14 10:58 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I also like Darlingtonia. :evil:  They grow along some of the rivers in N. California where I used to hike and fish.

My amatuer view on depression is that it often has it's origins in part from a toxic childhood environment.  Then it warps the chemical balances in the brain and over time they become set default states in the brain of the chronically depressed person.  Maybe  most fixes then are quite difficult to address.  And as Ped states the non depressed person really doesn't know what that feels like. Their acute depression states are fairly easy to address.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific] * 3
    #20912391 - 12/01/14 01:23 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> As I see depression, it is simply being emotionally (and electrically) drained, and persistently performing behaviors, going through patterns, that keep the energy down. This means constantly, habitually disconnecting from emotions (well, trying to, expending energy in order to, because the task isn't really possible, emotions always find ways to express).

This way of looking at things is great for people who don't suffer from a medical condition, and who find value in approaching the problem through theoretical abstractions which have psychological--not physiological--relevance.  It is basically meaningless to those whose depression has pathophysiological origins.

The scientific understanding of depression describes a cluster of genetically-mediated aberrations in neuronal signalling and monoamine biosynthesis, uptake, and metabolism.  It has nothing to do with being "electrically drained" (what?), nor does it have anything to do with bad mental habits or whatever else, and in fact it is offensive for you to suggest otherwise.  Would you tell a lung cancer patient they should develop better breathing habits, or that their problem has to do with simply being "bronchially drained"?


>> I'm not in the game of diagnosing and labeling major, minor and medium depression. I for one think they're on a continuum, and one bad habit (like faking a better state, for the sake of appearances) may be a nuisance in the short term, but can be a complete disaster and end up in pathology, if persisted in for months and years.

If you are not interested in understanding major, minor, clinical or non-clinical depression for what it actually is, it means you have no business theorizing about the causes or cures of someone's depression.  Stop telling depressed people their problem is the result of their bad habits.  Nothing could be less helpful to depressed individuals.  In fact, blaming a depression on a person's bad habits is a great way to prod them into putting a noose around their neck.  Stop it.  You are hurting people with such ignorance.


>> I don't know what proponents of the "keep the mask up" approach would advise that OP should do, but I see this very mask, this very attempt to constantly fake cheerfulness, as the very meat of the problem.

Please stop.  You don't know what you are talking about.  For the clinically depressed, a certain amount of concealment is necessary if the intention is to function in conventional society.  That is an unfortunate reality which has to be appropriately managed, not foolishly ignored.


>> I've been in environments (usually around family or extended family), that I knew can't handle me the way I am, they never could, and so over the years I've developed habits like OP describes, to hide and mask myself while around these people. If I stay a few months in those places, eventually this wears me out, I start feeling more gloomy, staying indoors more, then getting less sunlight, the kind of behavior that if persisted in, would lead to depression.

This is still more evidence that you have no idea what depression actually is.  Yes, when people develop such habits, they are liable to end up feeling discouraged or blue.  Feeling discouraged or blue is not depression.  Depression is a medical condition with a physiological substrate.  By denying this, you are marginalizing people with this serious medical condition.  How would you feel if you sought help for a heart condition, only to be told that it's not real, and that you just need to have a better attitude or make better choices, or to "just beat your heart better"?


>> Well depression may start as an energy saving strategy that the brain uses, at least initially.

This is a completely arbitrary descriptor with exactly zero practical value.  It is basically meaningless.  A depressive mind is constantly exhausted because it is constantly exerting itself.  This "energy saving strategy" theory does not pertain to reality in any way, shape or form.


>> Like you provide the depressed person with an idea, hey let's do this, and if you look with the right kind of eyes you'll actually be able to see a delay, them going inside their head, scan the idea for all the possible risks and dangers, amplify them, generate anxiety, do all kinds of operations behinds the scenes, in order to then be able to come up with excuses like "oh that won't work because xyz". There's always this kind of delay, as new ideas are scanned and excuses are formed behind the scenes. Negative aspects are amplified, in order to justify remaining idle.

Now you're really starting to piss me off.  This is appalling in its ignorance.  You have no clue what depressives actually go through, and you don't have the faintest, foggiest fucking glimmer of insight into the internal torture of the depressive's mental landscape.  Stop pretending you do.  People suffering from depression are not just stalling, making excuses, or searching for justification to remain idle.  People suffering from depression are suffering from a medical condition with a physiological substrate.  Please figure this out.  Please stop peddling your trite bullshit.

A depressive does not choose to "go inside their head" to "scan the idea for risks and dangers", nor do they choose to "amply them" or "generate anxiety."  They are carried along by this process and it is completely outside of their control.  Please educate yourself.


>> So in order to remain in the physically inactive states that are characteristic of depression, one expends a lot of thinking, mental energy, simply rewiring energy that should have went into limb movement and exploration, over to mental simulations. That's IMO a big component of it, excessive scanning for danger, worrying, etc. Electrical impulses that should be sent to run the limbs and movement, are spent (wasted) running excessive thinking alone, while remaining idle.

While you are making up pet theories about depression, medical science is developing actual insight into the condition.


>> This also is consistent with the fact that an Omega 6 excess in the diet (from grains and grain fed beef) will have an inflammatory effect, and an inflamed brain will start to "misfire" in this way, over-analyzing for risks and danger, draining itself in this way, wasting neurotransmitters and nutrients that then leave the whole system with very little energy.

[citation needed]

You need to stop telling depressed people what's going on with them, and start LISTENING to what's going on with them.  As follows:

Quote:

I've been a major athlete all my life.  Training up to 6 hours a day in various disciplines.  Then hiking with my dogs up steep mountain trails here in town up to 15 miles per day.  I go to Burning Man have had very deeply emotional and physical relationships. Yet here I am.  Depressed.




>> Mate, I'm not talking out of my arse here.

That's exactly what you've been doing since entering this thread.  Case in point:

Quote:

This also is consistent with the fact that an Omega 6 excess in the diet (from grains and grain fed beef) will have an inflammatory effect, and an inflamed brain will start to "misfire" in this way, over-analyzing for risks and danger, draining itself in this way, wasting neurotransmitters and nutrients that then leave the whole system with very little energy.



Over-thinking is caused by brain inflammation due to a fatty acid deficiency?  What utter nonsense.  It is a steaming pile of bullshit.


>> Omega 3 added to the diet, in doses of at least 1000 mg of EPA per day, has been actually shown in studies to help with depression.

When there is a dietary component to the depression, yes.  Is there a dietary component to all depression?  To most depression?  No.  Do you know how to distinguish between those depressive phenotypes with dietary factors and those which proceed apart from these factors?  No, you don't.


>> Moods are CLOSELY related to what you eat.

Moods are closely related to diet IN THOSE WHO DO NOT SUFFER FROM DEPRESSION.


--------------------


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Edited by Ped (12/01/14 01:34 PM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped] * 2
    #20912443 - 12/01/14 01:34 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Please stop.  You don't know what you are talking about.  For the clinically depressed, a certain amount of concealment is necessary if the intention is to function in conventional society.  That is an unfortunate reality which has to be appropriately managed, not foolishly ignored.

Here's a scenario from a situation that I have personal experience with.

Someone told their family their complete truth.  The family was so offended and in fear of what they were saying that this person is now in fear that his family will seek out a judge to have him committed for observation to see if he is mentally competent to be a free citizen.

Anyone telling someone they should tell everyone the truth is imo mentally unbalanced or they are very balanced and willing to deal with the above type possibility and many others not mentioned. Cause if you're not then you belong to the former group.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific] * 2
    #20912454 - 12/01/14 01:35 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20912548 - 12/01/14 01:56 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

The fact is all except for two of my truly close friends have depression issues.  They are of the finest caliber otherwise. 

It's notable that of the two that are not both are women.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/01/14 01:57 PM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander]
    #20912616 - 12/01/14 02:14 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Please stop.  You don't know what you are talking about.  For the clinically depressed, a certain amount of concealment is necessary if the intention is to function in conventional society.  That is an unfortunate reality which has to be appropriately managed, not foolishly ignored.

Here's a scenario from a situation that I have personal experience with.

Someone told their family their complete truth.  The family was so offended and in fear of what they were saying that this person is now in fear that his family will seek out a judge to have him committed for observation to see if he is mentally competent to be a free citizen.

Anyone telling someone they should tell everyone the truth is imo mentally unbalanced or they are very balanced and willing to deal with the above type possibility and many others not mentioned. Cause if you're not then you belong to the former group.




What family are we talking about?  Most people who aren't even depressed and use illegal psychedelic drugs aren't going to have full disclosure with their parents if they are overly conservative or religious, for fear they might do something crazy just like that... But I don't think that's what anyone was suggesting.... Your 'nuclear family', which in today's world might be the girlfriend that sleeps in your bed every night, where you no longer can even feel authentic to cry in the bed you sleep for fear of her finding out - or your best friend roommates, these are the people you might be truly hurting yourself to wear a mask around 24/7.  This is your home we're talking about.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (12/01/14 04:19 PM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander] * 4
    #20912629 - 12/01/14 02:18 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> The fact is all except for two of my truly close friends have depression issues.  They are of the finest caliber otherwise. 

It's been my experience that depressives are generally compassionate people of exceptional character who would do anything to free of themselves of their condition, but are nonetheless beholden to it.  It has also been my experience that non-depressives are more likely to be shallow, unthinking narcissists with little interest in or regard for others.  That's not to say that all non-depressives are like this--not by any means--just that a higher percentage of non-depressives exhibit these traits as compared to depressives.

If a person is able to will themselves out of depression, it means they weren't really depressed in the first place, and that they were just feeling sad or blue in the ordinary sense.  If a person is feeling sad or blue, and they are not able to will themselves out of it through self-talk or lifestyle changes, it means they have a medical condition with a physiological substrate.  Such individuals require the compassionate, attentive ear of other depressives, and they require medical assistance.  They do not require the trite aphorisms of self-absorbed hippies.


--------------------


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20912641 - 12/01/14 02:20 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

This did happen in their own home when family was visiting. 

I do see your point of course. If you can be authentic with no one then you have a serious issue to deal with .

So where do you draw the line?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander]
    #20912669 - 12/01/14 02:31 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

There are undeniably very good reasons to wear a mask with depression, say you live somewhere totally backwards and fucked up like Jamaica and you're depressed because you're homosexual, and aren't telling anyone for your own physical/legal safety.... I'd say there's compelling reasons to not trust anyone and do your best to plan an exit strategy.... Maybe write the family a frank letter once you're far the fuck away...  Same goes for people in these type situations... get far the fuck away from em, get 'em out of your life, write em a letter expressing your feelings about what happened in your childhood that fucked you up, etc.  Telling somebody you're unhappy and the reasons they've contributed to it doesn't have to be a live stream of everything that goes on in your head. 


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (12/01/14 02:49 PM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20912906 - 12/01/14 03:32 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I guess.  But if you back off to tell the truth is it really the same truth?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander]
    #20912936 - 12/01/14 03:40 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Possibly, I know somebody whose therapist recommended he write the family the letter and it was just as you described with your sister, he got a resentful phone call back from his mother saying how hurt they were by his words... and their relationship suffered for it and was pretty rocky for a long time and they didn't see much of each other for a long time, but it seems something he regarded highly as a part of his personal growth/self-esteem..  He had been getting therapy for some time though, he didn't just do it on a whim from shroomery advice, I think a fair amount of therapy led up to it.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (12/01/14 04:18 PM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20912946 - 12/01/14 03:43 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

From my experience it's best to walk away and leave people behind if they don't suit your needs. This includes family.  Trying to get people that are shut down to hear and accept the truth is almost always pointless and even dangerous.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander]
    #20912953 - 12/01/14 03:44 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

A lot of competing experiences out there, one big messy soup of em...

FWIW, I'm not sure it's a matter of making them understand, it's a matter of standing up for yourself and saying it to them.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20912965 - 12/01/14 03:46 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

To be expected on Primate Planet. :monkeydance:

Right it's all about you but it can backfire.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20912986 - 12/01/14 03:51 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The scientific understanding of depression describes a cluster of genetically-mediated aberrations in neuronal signalling and monoamine biosynthesis, uptake, and metabolism.




:lol:

Quote:

there is no such thing as a monolithic state called depression

I’m reposting this commentary and collection. I’ve added to both the commentary and the link collection since it was last posted. You can always find it in the drop-down navigation at the top of Beyond Meds — under “About” then “Depression.”

People often want to believe that depression has some distinct pathology. It does not. Clinical depression is very much a garbage pail term for feeling shitty and that may manifest in a large number of ways and have many different combinations of etiologies.

Depression is always a mixture of many things…there is no such thing as a monolithic state called depression…the fact that people imagine that is the case, is a problem.

The biggest reason it’s a problem is because psychiatry did a criminal disservice when it created the myth of the chemical imbalance. At best the chemical imbalance theory is a gross reductionism. At worst, people, having been misguided to take drugs that do nothing towards healing their body/minds. While on occasion some people do find some relief the fact remains that these medications can instead gravely harm people and often do. This fact is largely denied by established psychiatry even though there is a lot of documentation now that establishes it as fact. See: What your MD should tell you about SSRI antidepressants



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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #20913009 - 12/01/14 03:56 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Neither you nor your pseudoscience bullshit should be taken seriously by anyone, and by quoting it and linking to it you have disqualified your position from the consideration of rational, clear-thinking people.  You have nothing to say about depression.  What you say about depression doesn't matter, because you have forgotten how to judge correctly.  Nothing further needs to be said about that.  Close your mouth and stop talking.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20913099 - 12/01/14 04:14 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

...i was typing?:rolleyes:

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20913120 - 12/01/14 04:19 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

The best way to know of course would be to make you instantly chronically depressed to the extreme and then see if your advice would work on yourself.

Cause I'd like to see that done and if I could I'd change my views.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander]
    #20913215 - 12/01/14 04:41 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I have been. But the thing is, like said in a link I gave. There's no such thing as 'monolithic depression'. All I know is that I am VERY grateful that many years ago I was drawn to a book, because of its very intriguing cover, and the book was called The Myth of Mental Illness, by Thomas Szasz. Finding the book saved me from trusting the medical profession and keeping me away from taking their drugs they have tried to push on me, as well as helping me see what is going on, and how it connects with the religious mind control of the past.

Here's the artwork that was on the cover:


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20913239 - 12/01/14 04:45 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

OK you've convinced me to look for it on Amazon. 

The reviews by readers there are often very helpful, especially if there are a lot of them.

I'll report back.


Just got it for a penny plus shipping on Amazon:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/01/14 04:48 PM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #20913450 - 12/01/14 05:30 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> There's no such thing as 'monolithic depression'.

The pathophysiology of depression has been studied and elucidated for decades using experimental methodology and empirical evidence.  While the precise physiological substrate of depression has not been fully described, it remains true that depression is a medical condition with a physiological substrate, just as epilepsy or cerebral palsy are medical conditions with physiological substrates.  If you disagree with this statement, you are wrong, because to disagree with the facts is to be wrong.

Individuals who are able to will themselves out of depression by way of hocus-pocus pseudoscience and psychological manipulation were not actually suffering from depression in the first place.  Physiological pathologies do not have psychosomatic cures.  Psychosomatic disorders have psychosomatic cures.  While it's true that the many faults and failures of for-profit medicine have misdiagnosed and treated situational or psychosomatic depression as pathophysiological in nature, this fact does not in any way contravene the actual reality of depression as a medical condition with a physiological substrate.

A great way to distinguish between people with a psychosomatic depression and people with actual, really-existing depression is their attitude toward it.  Individuals with psychosomatic depression are quick to detect and talk about their condition, and love drawing attention to it.  Individuals with pathophysiological depression are often not aware of their condition, deny it when it is suggested to them, fail to seek treatment, or fail to comply with treatment after it is sought.  Actual, really-existing depression affects a person's perceptions on the most fundamental level, such that years are often required before the individual comes to terms with the reality of their condition. 

If an individual finds relief from depressed mood by talking themselves out of it, changing their lifestyle, reading a self-help book, or indulging in meaningless pseudoscience or hocus-pocus nonsense, it means that individual did not suffer from depression.  When an individual suffers from depression, there is no talking themselves out of it; there are no curative lifestyle changes, no self-help books or gurus, and nothing to be gained from wasting time on pseudoscience bullshit.

Individuals who find psychosomatic relief from their psychosomatic conditions should not presume to dispense advice to individuals seeking actual relief from actual conditions like depression.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander] * 3
    #20913708 - 12/01/14 06:18 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Damn, I'm appreciating the input on both sides here. I agree that whatever is going on with me is no simple fix. At the same time, pretending it's all okay all the time is causing a lot of problems for me, and I end up lying to myself over things.

My whole issue with any sort of advice, medical or not, is that my depression is stemming from something more intelligent than I am. It's the same intelligence that grows my hair, that beats my heart, that generates thoughts, that makes it rain, that creates gravity, ect. These feelings are here, that much I know. I do not, nor do I believe anyone can really, know exactly why or how these feelings are there. All I know is that here they are, and I should probably honor them. I don't believe there are any wrong feelings, my feelings are here for a reason, whether I am conscious of them or not.

I feel my depression seemed to start when I stopped trusting myself way back in middle school. The first few times I got laughed at or felt ashamed for my genuine actions or opinions made me hesitant to be myself. That was like my original sin, going against myself to try and fit in. I had always been a sensitive kid, so I guess I over reacted. I put on my first masks, tough guy ones, to try and seem cool and hard and all that. I ended up a boring kid with friends that weren't actually my friends. What's worse, I was still sensitive underneath my tough guy act. I was a small kid, I probably got picked on more than if I would've just been my goofy self.

I know everyone wears masks, but "healthy" people wear filters as opposed to masks. They express how they really feel through a filter depending on the situation. Me, I blocked out how I felt completely and tried to cram myself into a box, so to speak. Someone would hurt me or piss me off, and I'd pretend to laugh it off to avoid a fight or whatever. Then something would push me over the edge, the mask would come off and I'd blow up, no filter, no nothing.

Over time I'd picked up so many of these habits and it bled over into all areas of my life. It's possible that this is why I'm so screwed up.

That being said, my grandmother on my moms side, and 4 of her children struggle with depression, and some of their children too. There's a genetic component to it too. I could be chemically predisposed to this kind of shit. Perhaps my initial anxiety, lack of confidence and all that is a result of some sort of weak chemistry in my brain. Everyone faces the fact that the world won't always agree with them, why did I just bend over and take it?

What in sayin is, idk what the fuck is goin on here. I appreciate all the input though, thanks guys.

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Offlinejimboob
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20913787 - 12/01/14 06:35 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

But also I should add that a lot of times I have a lot of good things going on in my life, but my brain doesn't seem receptive of it. There's a huge chicken and egg problem here.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20913796 - 12/01/14 06:36 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Well if other disease can have a genetic component then it would be logical to assume that this would too.  It then would be made worse or better depending on the actual environment.

Veritas says that the fetus in the womb is a bank slate and begins to form it's programs by picking up on the environment (emotional/chemical environment) that the mothers current chemistry promotes.  If she is stressed then the baby comes out informed by that state.  Stressful mother, then maybe more likely to be a stress prone child.  I personally don't know if that's true but she studies this shit in depth and she would very likely explain that better than I just have.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20913846 - 12/01/14 06:48 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jimboob said:
But also I should add that a lot of times I have a lot of good things going on in my life, but my brain doesn't seem receptive of it. There's a huge chicken and egg problem here.




Anhedonia is most definitely a symptom of clinical depression.


--------------------
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OfflinePed
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob] * 1
    #20913913 - 12/01/14 07:03 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> I feel my depression seemed to start when I stopped trusting myself way back in middle school.

>> There's a huge chicken and egg problem here.

The chicken-egg problem is definitely the crux of the matter.  While it could be that your depression started after you stopped trusting yourself, it could also be that you stopped trusting yourself after your depression started.  After all, trust and confidence in oneself is one of the first things that depression corrupts. 

Generally speaking, persistent depression does not evolve out of mental habits.  Mental habits evolve and change as we grow older, and if we are developing normally so-called "bad habits" naturally drop away.  A certain amount of insecurity and confusion is inherent to being a middle-school teenager, but when these two states deepen with the transition into adulthood, it is a strong indicator of physiological factors.

Perhaps the strongest potential indicator of physiological factors, however, is this statement:

>> I should add that a lot of times I have a lot of good things going on in my life, but my brain doesn't seem receptive of it.

One of the primary hallmarks of depression is its unresponsiveness to changing circumstances and situations.  Ordinarily, healthy individuals respond to their environment proportionately.  When this response is chronically disproportionate, in indicates a trans-environmental factor, i.e., a physiological/biochemical/genetic problem.  Medical science understands that the duration of a depressive episode is what indicates its substrate: short-term, transient depressions typically have primary situational/environmental causes, while long-term, persistent depressions typically have primary genetic/biochemical causes.

Confusion arises owing to the interface between environmental factors and biological factors.  It is entirely possible to carry the genetic markers for depression and never develop the condition because of a consistently positive external environment.  On the other hand, when these markers are present even small environmental aberrations can precipitate a major depressive disorder, and when this occurs no amount of environmental modification will significantly improve the depression.

Ultimately, which of these applies to you is a question only you can answer.  No one else can tell you what's going on with you, and no one else can tell you what you should do about it. 

There are nine genetic markers for depression, and a blood test has been developed to detect these.  This test is still relatively new and won't be available to patients for a few years yet, but if you can access this test it may help clarify things for you by a huge amount.


>> the fetus in the womb is a bank slate and begins to form it's programs by picking up on the environment (emotional/chemical environment) that the mothers current chemistry promotes.  If she is stressed then the baby comes out informed by that state.

This is so fascinatingly true.  Mothers who are malnourished during pregnancy will give birth to children with slower metabolic rates and a higher risk of obesity.  It stands to reason that many other epigenetic changes occur in the womb, and that these have a major role in the pathogenesis of depressive disorders.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20914304 - 12/01/14 08:10 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)



Quote:










I read the book in my abnormal psychology class in Uni, the prof, who was way into psychoanalysis, used to say that pharmaceutical meds didn't actually help people, they just made it so they no longer gave a shit.... but take that with a grain of salt...


--------------------
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20914315 - 12/01/14 08:11 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Yes the baby is already fine tuned but to the Mothers environment actually.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific]
    #20914321 - 12/01/14 08:12 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Spacerific said:
...Faking good vibes 24/7 is IMO definitely NOT a long term solution.....




you know, good vibes have to come from somewhere,
and I have not exactly seen a goodvibe machine...
even a Hammond B3 organ will sound awful if someone does not practice making good sounds on it.

24/7 is too exhausting a regime.

8/6 would be perfect

but even 1/2 hour 6 days per week is going to be indispensable.

Not gushy stupid though, just neutral and open is perfect


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20914967 - 12/01/14 10:33 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I don't believe there are any wrong feelings, my feelings are here for a reason, whether I am conscious of them or not.


:thumbup:

Great post all around. That one sticks out in particular.


--------------------
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20915532 - 12/02/14 03:01 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


If an individual finds relief from depressed mood by talking themselves out of it, changing their lifestyle, reading a self-help book, or indulging in meaningless pseudoscience or hocus-pocus nonsense, it means that individual did not suffer from depression.



Sooo if I spent 5-10 years staying indoors, taking everything to heart, disconnecting and distracting myself from feelings with all manner of electronic bullshit, making mountains out of molehills in pretty much all areas of my life, basically going through most or all behaviors and mental processes that a depressed person goes through, and then after that I change diet, pour in hundreds of hours of audiobooks to pick up new strategies and paradigms about the world, start getting out more, exercising more and fix my skin contact and relationship to other people and finally get back to normal and thrive, the fact that I've been able to do that, to you means that the 5-10 years of depressive behavior were what, mood swings? :lol:

Quote:

When an individual suffers from depression, there is no talking themselves out of it; there are no curative lifestyle changes, no self-help books or gurus, and nothing to be gained from wasting time on pseudoscience bullshit.



Are you familiar with learned helplessness at all?

I've been there, I've been there for more than a decade, and looking back I see absolutely no difference between my behavior and thought processes back then, and what I see described here as depression.

I don't know what your game plan is, in giving so much power to a condition, assuming from the get go that the person "suffering from" it has no recourse, nothing to do. How is that helpful or constructive? If you read OP's actual posts, his current state had a clear start in time, so it is learned, and so it can just as well be unlearned, when control is resumed, when direct contact to emotions is resumed, when energy goes into free expression of emotions as they are, as opposed to masking, lying, faking and so on.

Personally I have great trust in the brain's ability to get stronger, better, to heal and improve itself if it's given the right nutrients and constructive approaches, as opposed to self-defeating ones.

I've interacted with OP before, found them very responsive and able to take in good advice, I have no reason to believe they'll be "suffering from" this stuff for too long. Once emotions start being expressed, once trust in oneself starts being cultivated again, progress can be made in leaps and bounds, which I think is the case here.

Quote:

jimboob said:
I feel my depression seemed to start when I stopped trusting myself way back in middle school. The first few times I got laughed at or felt ashamed for my genuine actions or opinions made me hesitant to be myself. That was like my original sin, going against myself to try and fit in.



Same here, precisely the same defense mechanisms, actually around the same age. Especially if there's parents that are somewhat critical as well as colleagues/teachers at school, one is then very likely to start engaging in this sort of masking, covering up vulnerability, faking bravado, etc. Been there as well, done it for many years, so I know for sure it can be also grown out of.

Quote:

I had always been a sensitive kid, so I guess I over reacted. I put on my first masks, tough guy ones, to try and seem cool and hard and all that. I ended up a boring kid with friends that weren't actually my friends. What's worse, I was still sensitive underneath my tough guy act. I was a small kid, I probably got picked on more than if I would've just been my goofy self.



Well that was back in middle school, simply reconnect now and you'll find the more you express as you are, the more masks will fall and be left behind.

Quote:

I know everyone wears masks, but "healthy" people wear filters as opposed to masks. They express how they really feel through a filter depending on the situation. Me, I blocked out how I felt completely and tried to cram myself into a box, so to speak. Someone would hurt me or piss me off, and I'd pretend to laugh it off to avoid a fight or whatever. Then something would push me over the edge, the mask would come off and I'd blow up, no filter, no nothing.



The blowing up is how you eventually express emotions, so this goes to show that you can't REALLY mask emotions ad infinitum. You either express them day by day in healthy ways OR you try to push them down, cover them up with masks, fake your way through it, but then they will eventually blow up from underneath, in ways that are much more destructive.

Quote:

Over time I'd picked up so many of these habits and it bled over into all areas of my life. It's possible that this is why I'm so screwed up.



You're not screwed up dude, that's victim talk. You have a few bad habits. As soon as you've noticed them and have started looking for better ones, that's it. The game is up. You're already moving in a functional, positive direction and it's only a matter of time until old habits are completely left behind.

Quote:

That being said, my grandmother on my moms side, and 4 of her children struggle with depression, and some of their children too. There's a genetic component to it too. I could be chemically predisposed to this kind of shit. Perhaps my initial anxiety, lack of confidence and all that is a result of some sort of weak chemistry in my brain. Everyone faces the fact that the world won't always agree with them, why did I just bend over and take it?



Well I don't know why you bent over and took it, what I can tell you is that I did exactly the same and I don't think one needs to be "weak" do to id. In my case, looking back at my parents now, their attitudes and behaviors simply weren't supportive enough to lead to a balanced, emotionally warm environment, for a kid to thrive and grow in. If I come back with a disagreement from school (with a teacher, some other kid, whatever) and I find minimal or zero support at home from parents, if instead of some type of kind word and a smile, one finds vague theoretical discussions or parents that aren't even present, being in their heads busy with work issues, then it's actually quite easy to fall into negative thinking patterns.

I'm not saying blaming parents is a good idea, but realize that some of the weird strategies begun in middle school may not have been your doing. Might have had plenty to do with things like constant bullying and ridicule at school, and who knows what sort of environment you returned to, at home. Were your parents overly demanding for instance? Were they focusing more on school grades than how you actually feel, if you're at all OK in your own skin? I can tell you my parents simply didn't "get it", the whole, how humans thrive thing. These people rarely hugged or showed any nonverbal support to both me and each other. I've had to learn all that stuff from complete strangers and once I did it started working. Some have it in the family growing up, some have to learn it down the line. Don't blame yourself if you didn't have a perfect family to mold you initially, that whole thing was out of your hands. Simply learn the skills now and you'll start functioning now.
Quote:

jimboob said:
But also I should add that a lot of times I have a lot of good things going on in my life, but my brain doesn't seem receptive of it. There's a huge chicken and egg problem here.



Well the question is, what are you actually putting focus on?

I know this from fellow artists, if you get 9 compliments and one horrible critique on a work, the critique can discourage you for weeks if that's what you focus on. Would be easy to say I have plenty of good things outside (9 awesome compliments) and my brain isn't receptive to it, but actually focus, habits of attention come into play here. Some people (having received enough good vibes and emotional support to know that they're OK) will simply take in and trust the 9 compliments more than the 1 critique, in terms of who they are, what defines them. Even if they take the technical advice from the critique, it will be processed as constructive feedback on a skill, devoid of hurtful emotions and victimization. It will be felt like "hey my hand slipped here, I need a bit more practice in this way for better brush control" as opposed to "OMG, I can't ever do anything right, I suck at art and life, why am I so stupid :sad:"

So my questions is, when the good things are happening externally, do you actually take time to focus on them and enjoy them, MORE than focusing on problems and worries? Do you take active time to let go of crap and mental noise and have conversations about how awesome life is? What fills your vocabulary? What fills your mental screen? What do you take in deeper and put more trust in? The positive events or the crap that doesn't work?

As discussed in that other thread, what drives your body language? Things like dance and carefree ta-dee-dah, life is awesome swinging of the arms and pirouettes, or clutching, standing still and worrying, dwelling on things feeling all :uhoh: ? Do you whistle, hum songs as you walk and sing in the shower? These things are rather fragile in the face of criticism, there's always that one asshole that will snap when they see you being carefree, trying to bring you down to their nervous irritated level. Maybe that was the case in middle school, but now as an adult you can actually defend your right to whistle, dance around and have not a care in the world. It's actually the main reason for getting up in the morning. This is what makes life worth living, this having space and feeling free to enjoy it. Feeling free to color your hair rainbow if you feel good about it.

And I'm not saying you should fake it by the way, that you should whistle when angry or anything like that. I'm saying first focus your attention on things that are worth dancing and happily whistling about, and then simply go with the flow :biggrin:

I've had the chance to recently live with someone that's engaged in a whole lot of negative patterns, and I can tell you that even from positive stuff happening externally, this person could focus her attention in such a way as to extract maximum fear and worries to dwell on, to remain in her familiar patterns. Even if something was good, felt good, felt awesome even, the next 5 minutes worries would start about either the fact that it can't last, or that she won't be able to reciprocate in turn, or simply dwell on the past, like why couldn't I have this before, etc. I've seen it time and again, I'd cook some really good food and it was eaten almost dismissively, rushing through it nervously, whereas one bad look or one small critical thing someone said, was dwelled on for hours and hours and days on end. In the same house I was dwelling for hours on the awesomeness of the food and being completely dismissive of the bad looks or crappy comments, like meh, they must have had a bad day, or haven't gotten laid in a month or something, has nothing to do with me :shrug:

So the same stimuli, but I was putting attention constantly, habitually on positive things that's enjoyable to focus on (tits, massage, food, comedy, art, freedom) and putting only short bursts of attention on problems, meaning only when I had actually the energy and interest to do something about it. She was putting long attention on the negative, more often than not when she had neither energy nor interest to get active in fixing or improving things, just habitual dwelling on them, feeling sad. Over time, same house same food same everything, we had a vastly different experience of it. I know there's this tendency to say "oh but my mind just focuses and dwells on these things by itself, it's not something I intend" but actually you do have quite a measure of control. If you exercise it, if you start looking for things that are actually worth focusing on, soon this becomes habitual, you'll naturally focus long on the positive, short on the negative. This is 100% a learned skill, not some fixed default setting.

So how are you focusing your attention, now that you look on it? What are you amplifying, what do you rest your attention on for longer? What do you analyze over and over, from all sides and different angles? The problems or the awesome in life? As soon as you start focusing on pleasure, joy, what works, what delivers, you should find you become quite responsive to external good vibes :thumbup:


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
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Offlinezzripz
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #20915540 - 12/02/14 03:09 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
OK you've convinced me to look for it on Amazon. 

The reviews by readers there are often very helpful, especially if there are a lot of them.

I'll report back.


Just got it for a penny plus shipping on Amazon:thumbup:




A book where Szasz shows comparison between religious mind control and psychiatric mindcontrol is titled The Manufacture of Madness: A Comparative Study of the Inquisition and the Mental Health Movement

In order to really get an understanding of the paradigm we are in with its mental illness myth we need to research the mythology, philosophy, of both the religious phase and understanding of 'psychological' distress and understanding of reality and the 'secular' materialistic understanding which we're in now. If you don't your kinda looking blind, because your ignoring the water your swimming in

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #20915952 - 12/02/14 08:02 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

one book is all I likely have time for.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflinePed
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific] * 2
    #20916711 - 12/02/14 11:59 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> Sooo if I spent 5-10 years staying indoors, taking everything to heart, disconnecting and distracting myself from feelings with all manner of electronic bullshit, making mountains out of molehills in pretty much all areas of my life, basically going through most or all behaviors and mental processes that a depressed person goes through, and then after that I change diet, pour in hundreds of hours of audiobooks to pick up new strategies and paradigms about the world, start getting out more, exercising more and fix my skin contact and relationship to other people and finally get back to normal and thrive, the fact that I've been able to do that, to you means that the 5-10 years of depressive behavior were what, mood swings?

I can't account for your history, as it's not my place to impose my own interpretation of your private experience.  I have quite a few ideas about your anecdotes, but all I can tell you is what the science says, what depression actually is in reality, and where your points are categorically incorrect.


>> Are you familiar with learned helplessness at all?

I'm familiar with lots of trendy psychological ideas, yep.


>> I've been there, I've been there for more than a decade, and looking back I see absolutely no difference between my behavior and thought processes back then, and what I see described here as depression.

This is how we know that you have no real experience with depression, and no real cognition of what depression is or how it affects a person's life.


>> I don't know what your game plan is, in giving so much power to a condition, assuming from the get go that the person "suffering from" it has no recourse, nothing to do.

Do not put words in my mouth again.  I have not said that he has no recourse and nothing to do.  The opposite is the reality.


>> How is that helpful or constructive?

The first step to developing a solution to a problem is understanding that problem for what it actually is.  Imposing your own private experience with not-depression on somebody else does not help them understand their problem for what it actually is.  On the contrary, attempting to impose what works for you effectively makes the OP's thread about you instead of about them.  It's self-absorbed behaviour.


>> If you read OP's actual posts, his current state had a clear start in time, so it is learned

You are not qualified to make this determination, and I'd like to see you give some thought to how arrogant it is for you to presume otherwise.


>> and so it can just as well be unlearned, when control is resumed, when direct contact to emotions is resumed, when energy goes into free expression of emotions as they are, as opposed to masking, lying, faking and so on.

You are not a guru, as much as you like to think of yourself as one, and I'd like to see you give some thought to how egotistical it is for you to presume otherwise.


>> Personally I have great trust in the brain's ability to get stronger, better, to heal and improve itself if it's given the right nutrients and constructive approaches, as opposed to self-defeating ones.

That's because you have no experience with clinical depression, and don't understand what it's like to live with a brain which does not have the ability get stronger, to get better, to heal, and to improve itself on nutrients and "constructive approaches" alone.  It's because you don't have the first clue what it's like to live with a central nervous system which--as the OP has repeatedly stated--rejects positive environmental conditions and continues its despondency regardless of external factors.

Stop telling people what their experience is, and start listening to what their experience is.  This isn't all about you and your pet theories.


>> I've interacted with OP before, found them very responsive and able to take in good advice, I have no reason to believe they'll be "suffering from" this stuff for too long.

You are not qualified to make this determination, and your unquestioning faith in your own advice further indicates the dispositional ego-centrism driving your posts.


>> Once emotions start being expressed, once trust in oneself starts being cultivated again, progress can be made in leaps and bounds, which I think is the case here.

What you think doesn't matter.  What matters is what's actually going on in the OP's experience.  You don't know what that is, no matter how much you think you do.  Stop telling him what his problems and solutions are, and start listening to what his experience actually is.

You have a lot to learn about being a helpful person, but this learning won't even begin until you stop congratulating yourself for being so wise and insightful, i.e., until you stop acting like such a narcissist and start making a priority out of listening to and properly understanding others instead of telling them how to interpret their own private experience.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20916813 - 12/02/14 12:21 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Let's agree to disagree on this stuff, I have no problem with that.

I've posted my advice, you've posted yours, I think OP is perfectly capable to choose what he prefers betweeen the two :thumbup:

Not going to get into lengthy arguments with you, as I'm in this thread for OP, not for you. :cheers:


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
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OfflinePed
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific] * 1
    #20916844 - 12/02/14 12:25 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> I'm in this thread for OP

Then start acting like it.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20916939 - 12/02/14 12:44 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I think you're acting like the OP has been diagnosed with this serious mood disorder and he hasn't, you're not a psychologist and you're not qualified in any way to assess his condition, you're applying all sorts of standards to him that only might be applicable, but aren't necessarily.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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OfflinePed
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #20916965 - 12/02/14 12:51 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> I think you're acting like the OP has been diagnosed with this serious mood disorder and he hasn't, you're not a psychologist and you're not qualified in any way to assess his condition, you're applying all sorts of standards to him that only might be applicable, but aren't necessarily.

If you read the posts in which I am addressing the OP specifically, you'll find that I relate aspects of my own experience to him without instructing him to accept that my experience necessarily pertains to his, and without instructing him about how to improve his situation.  If you read the posts in which I am addressing Spacerific, you'll see that I am drawing a very clear line between situational/circumstantial sadness and clinical depression, because ignorance of this line is one of the most damaging errors non-depressed people make when confronted by others who are struggling.

Quote:

Ultimately, which of these applies to you is a question only you can answer.  No one else can tell you what's going on with you, and no one else can tell you what you should do about it. 




--------------------


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Offlinejimboob
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped] * 2
    #20917119 - 12/02/14 01:22 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Well again I appreciate everyone's input. I like a lot of what Space has to say. If I haven't mentioned it before in this topic, his thinking coincides with my own ideas as of lately.

It's also good to hear the counter argument too, from Ped and others, to keep me in check.

I have to say though, if I had to put my money on what's going on here, I'd say that I am genetically vulnerable to depression, and certain environmental/social factors triggered that vulnerability and made me depressed. For 10 years I kept it hidden, and twisted myself up in all sorts of psychological knots to where it now seems like I am depressed for "no reason".

But anyway I need to decide for myself what I'm gonna do. I'm thinking I try out some of Space's ideas for a while. While I know he's just some dude on the Internet, his ideas ring a bell in me. This is opposed to all the bullshit ideas like affirmations, forced positive thinking, the law of attraction which my gut tells me are wrong. Right now my gut is tellin me to give his ideas a shot. I'm not gonna cuss out anyone or skip familly things because I'm moody, but I'm going to trust my feelings more and live them out a bit better, rather than label it depression and calling myself broken.

If all else fails then yeah, I'll get some professional help. Not quite ready to go that path yet.

Edited by jimboob (12/02/14 01:24 PM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20917253 - 12/02/14 01:44 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I agree, follow your gut.  You'll know post haste if it's going to work or not.  Then you will know for yourself.  And if it works then Yippee!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20920155 - 12/02/14 10:14 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> I'm going to trust my feelings more and live them out a bit better, rather than label it depression and calling myself broken.

Aversion to labels and value-judgements like "broken" nearly cost me my life, and for this reason I'd like a share my story with you.  I apologize for how long this story is -- attempts to balance succinctness and detail produced this large volume of text despite my best efforts.  I hope you'll take the time to read it, but I won't be offended if you don't -- I'm sure someone will get something out of it some day.

My mental health struggles began when I was about ten years old, developing very gradually throughout my teen years.  I first started noticing something was wrong when I lost interest in hanging out with my friends and getting good grades, both of which had been priorities of mine up to that point.  Together with that sensation were feelings of embarrassment and guilt, as though this loss of interest made me less of a person.  By the time I was 15, I went from being an outgoing boy to a deeply introverted, deeply unsure individual constantly writhing under an anxious inner turbulence.

The people around me saw this as immaturity, "teenage angst", or the result of an undisciplined mind, and in those days I took those suggestions as confirmation that I was indeed less of a person.  I tried extremely hard to compensate for it, to "do better", "grow up", and "be a man".  When those efforts met with little to no success, I felt like even less of a person than I did before, such that I became only more entangled as I tried to wriggle my way out of the briar patch.

It was around that time that I started self-medicating with drugs.  That helped a lot.  Cannabis made me feel like a kid again, as did mushrooms.  The drugs brought out my charisma and charm, and they chased away the perpetually gathering dark.  Because of this, drugs and drug use quickly became an integral component of my identity, and I came to rely on them to feel normal.  Naturally, that didn't pan out very well -- while it helped in some aspects, it made other aspects quite a bit worse.  Ultimately, taking drugs was just a strategy to avoid confronting the fact that I had a problem.

It was toward my late teens and early twenties that my baseline state of latent sadness began to oscillate between crushing lows and soaring highs.  This drove me into all kinds of destructive behaviour: in the "up" phase I'd become highly energetic, charismatic and manipulative, while in the "down" phase I'd become a swirling vacuum of self-loathing and bottomless despair.  Even as these markedly distinct states cost me careers, family relationships, romantic relationships, and friendships, still I wouldn't ever consider that I had a medical problem.  I always blamed myself and my choices, whether that be my lifestyle choices, personal choices, career choices, or whatever else.  It was easier to blame my own choices and habits, because if these things were not the culprit it meant that I was helpless to improve upon myself and my life.  That idea was too scary to confront.

As those oscillating moods started to manifest, people in my life asked me to consider that I might have a medical problem.  My response was to mock the "medical establishment" and "big pharma".  Foolishly, I saw all of western medicine as a money-making scam.  "Science is so narrow minded", I'd say.  I'd think "my mind is just gifted, like Mozart, or like a shaman."  I didn't need to talk to any doctors or psychologists because I didn't really have a problem; I had a gift.  Rather than focus on getting well, I started to focus on developing and utilizing my gifts, because I had convinced myself that the real cause of my troubles was a lack of outlets for my "stagnant energy".  Before long I was investing heavily in Buddhism, holistic "medicine", and self-help books written by this or that self-styled "guru".  I found great comfort in all of that, and there were times when I felt like I'd discovered "the answer", and that my troubles had been pacified.

It was around this time that I started finding myself in hospitals.  I'd be taken there for a variety of reasons: in the "up" phase I'd be hospitalized after colliding with police over my inappropriate behaviour, while in the "down" phase I'd be hospitalized after threatening or attempting suicide.  The real nature of my problem was getting difficult to ignore, but it would be another 6 years before I'd actually seek any meaningful treatment.

In my mid twenties, I decided that the best way to take control of my situation was to make adjustments to my lifestyle and mental habits.  I decided that I'd stop letting my thoughts carry me down into pits of despair, and that I'd stop letting myself get carried away in energetic enthusiasm.  I added a bunch of brain-boosting supplements and food items to my diet, and stopped eating processed foods; I took up twice-daily mindfulness meditation and yoga; I sold my car and became a year-round, all-weather cyclist, and so on and so forth. 

During that period, I felt great!  "Look at how well I'm taking care of myself," I thought, "I'm doing such a good job at being healthy."  I had ideas like "I'm doing so much better now that I'm exercising more and doing yoga," and "meditation has helped clear my mind so much."  "I don't have a problem," I would say to myself, "I was just making bad choices before.  Now that I'm making good choices, I'm all better."

That lasted less than a year.  After about eight months of that, I found myself wandering around in the pouring rain with no shoes or jacket on, only jeans and a T-shirt, feeling like nothing could bother or hurt me.  It was in fact the biggest storm of the year, and flash flood warnings had shut most people inside their homes.  The empty streets were running freely with water, and the city was being peppered by lightning.  It was dangerous out there, but that didn't matter because I felt invincible.  A few days later, though, I was so depressed that I once again lost my job, lost my girlfriend, alienated my friends and family, and became helpless but to watch everything good in my life drain away with the storm waters as I myself was helplessly sucked out to sea in a depressive rip tide.  "What caused this?" I asked myself, "how could this possibly happen?  What did I do wrong?"

The fact is that I had been lying to myself all those years.  When I was a child, I tried to hide it or ignore it.  When I was a teen, I tried to cover it up, and then I tried to philosophize it into something mystical or esoteric.  As I emerged into adulthood, I tried to take control of it, believing that self-empowerment and self-care would keep me healthy.

"I'm not sick, I just have to work a little harder to stay healthy."

I was so scared of being "broken" that I lied to myself about getting better, and even managed to convince myself that I'd made improvements and gains which I had not actually made.  Every step of the way, I resisted medical advice, because accepting medical advice seemed synonymous with identifying myself as defective.  Now, more than 20 years after the first signs of trouble began, I'm finally starting to accept that I have a medical condition with a physiological substrate.  Now that I'm 31 years old, I'm a bit more mature, and I've come to realize that throughout these past two decades I've been doing everything in my power to avoid labelling myself and calling myself broken.  I told myself many lies, invested in many guru-concepts and "natural cures", and while some of this was really quite convincing and at times marginally helpful, all of it turned out to be hollow in the end. 

What I really needed was professional help and pharmaceutical intervention.  These things are necessary because no matter how much I'd rather it not be true, the reality is that I have bipolar II disorder.  No longer in denial, I'm being treated for my condition, and while I still struggle from time to time I'm no longer completely out of control.

Why am I telling you this story?  Simple: because I want you to have the benefit of seeing how powerful denial can be, especially when it comes to mental illness.  Being fearful of labels and diagnoses can drive a person further and further from the environs of the actual treatment they require, and it can make pseudoscience, philosophical quackery, feel-good mantras, trite beliefs, trendy diets and self-help gurus seem very attractive.  In my case, such things delayed my access to the real treatment I require, and this delay nearly claimed my life before the end of my 20s: the longer bipolar disorder goes untreated, the greater the likelihood it will end in suicide. 

Now, please don't misunderstand: I'm not saying that you have a condition like mine, nor am I saying that you have a condition at all.  Rather, I'm imploring you not to rule this out as a potential explanation for your difficulty, and to carefully discern between actually getting better, and deceiving yourself into thinking you're getting better such that your deterioration continues beneath the surface while you're not looking.  If it can happen to me, it can happen to you or anyone.


>> rather than label it depression and calling myself broken.

With this, you just called everyone who suffers from a mood disorder "broken."  While I realize this wasn't your intention, and while I certainly don't take offence to it, the mere fact that you'd think of depression as a "label" which identifies someone as "broken" reveals something about what you expect from yourself and others when it comes to these kinds of things.

Do you really believe that people with mood disorders are broken?  If the answer to that question is "yes", I can understand why you'd be adverse to the idea that you might have a medical problem with a physiological substrate.  Even if the answer is "no", it's safe to say that most people conceive those with mood disorders as defective in some fashion, and so this aversion still makes sense.  After all, who wants to be seen as "broken"?  I certainly didn't -- and I spent 20 years of my life deceiving myself and others in a desperate attempt to avoid it. 

Struggling with depression or bipolar disorder does not mean that someone is "broken", though.  If it did, that would mean Robin Williams was broken, as well as Stephen Fry, Alan Watts, Beethoven, Vincent Van Gogh, and many others.  These people were exceptional, not broken.  They struggled with major mood disorders, but this did not in any way subtract from their gifts, nor did it subtract from their worth as people. 

So, as you go forward, please keep an open mind, and please don't hesitate to ask for help or insight from qualified professionals or experienced individuals. There is never any harm in talking to a doctor or a psychologist, and there's no reason not to fold their opinion into your contemplation.  After all, it's not like medical professionals are going to brand a bar code on your forehead and force you to take prescription drugs at gunpoint.  It's worth talking to them and getting their opinion, even if you don't think it's necessary.

Whatever you do, be sure not to waste an entire chapter of your life trying to avoid a confrontation with the real nature of your struggles.  The only way to get where you want to go is to start where you actually are, and if your starting point is depression the first question has to be: why?  Answering that question effectively means keeping all possible explanations on the table no matter how unpalatable they may seem.


--------------------


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Offlinejimboob
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20921091 - 12/03/14 02:36 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Wow man, thank you for sharing. Your story sounds very similar to mine, except I haven't been to your extremes (yet?). I don't think my ups and downs are dramatic as yours, but still....the way you spelt that all out was so eerilie similar in many areas that I could of written it myself.

I'll be honest man, I've thought about getting help a few times. I've actually only told about three people in person about my struggles, and I told them very little. I'm scared of the stigma, and I'm scared of starting down the road of doctors and pills and all that. I'm scared I'm gonna take a pill and my personality will dramatically change and my dick might not work and...idk, like I said I just don't trust that stuff. Not because they are influenced by money but because I'm not convinced they know enough to truely help me.

Like if Alan Watts or any of those people you mentioned took meds would they still have done all that great stuff?

But at the same time, I'm at my wits end here. I have so so so many good things going for me and I feel like they're being wasted on someone incapable of appreciating them.

Edited by jimboob (12/03/14 02:37 AM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20921141 - 12/03/14 03:18 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

An old Chinese saying 'the right means works the wrong way for the wrong man'

This means, we are all of us unique and different. So just because a person 'tried all kinds of alternative' help and failed, means it failed for the person it failed for. Not for every person who has tried these ways.

You should read a book by an online friend of mine. The only book I have been acknowledged in--as far as I am aware--because of talking with him lots online prior to its publication. The book is called The Spiritual Gift of Madness:The Failure of Psychiatry and the Rise of the Mad Pride Movement, by Seth Farber

In it you find interviews with people who had been diagnosed with various 'mental illness' labels, and multiple labels, often different shrinks giving different diagnoses to the same person--which happens because it is not real medical science, but pseudoscience. And then they find alternative information help support and sommunity, and eventually come off the toxic drugs they are on, and the belief they have defective brains, and find their lives back!

Look, IF a person chooses to embrace the psychiatric biomedical model, then he is choosing that, though it is not based on any real medical science. It is up to the person, but everyone needs informed consent.

Quote:

CRAZYWISE Conference - Rethinking madness



December 2, 2014 The Netherlands - Rotterdam

The aim of CRAZYWISE is to investigate, in an integral way, what wisdom and meaning may be enclosed within experiences of psychosis, which are usually labeled as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. Philosophers, psychiatrists, psychologists and experience experts bring a complementary perspective on psychosis as it is defined and treated today.



Decades of medical research have brought a treatment based on medication that brings solace to some patients. However, for others, this remedy has proven to be insufficient and a minority of ex-patients seems to be leading stable and fulfilling lives without the help of medication. Both the psychotic experience and the limitations of psychiatric treatment raise questions to which science has yet to find and answer.



CRAZYWISE offers a platform to speakers from the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and Brazil, who are specialized in diverging domains. It will explore new approaches, alternative treating methods, and aims to spark further research and a more effective practice with new ideas. The conference does not align itself with anti-psychiatry, but serves as a platform for those wishing to look for complementary explanations and nuanced solutions in constructive dialogue.



CRAZYWISE is directed towards professionals in areas related to mental health, patients, ex-patients and family members alike.



Edited by zzripz (12/03/14 04:29 AM)

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Offlineviktor
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20921170 - 12/03/14 03:47 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I'm on psychiatric meds - sertraline and amisulpride - and I take them for the sole reason that my quality of life is higher on them than without. There are side-effects - a certain physical sluggishness being the foremost - but on balance taking them is better.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20921173 - 12/03/14 03:48 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Good post, Ped :thumbup:

Yikes.... from the bipolarwakingup blog on 'How Kundalini Effects Bipolar Disorder"



This is just shameful.

Quote:

Well, if you´ve watched most of my videos, it’s pretty obvious  that what most of us have been going through seems a lot more like something you might read about in the old testament, where God comes to Abraham,  Moses even Noah and with a special message or mission




That's a manic psychotic delusion in action...


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20921224 - 12/03/14 04:33 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

are you a psychiatrist Cosmicjoke?

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20921256 - 12/03/14 04:54 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

No, but I do have an undergraduate psychology degree (took my education in a different direction postgrad) and I have met a person undergoing a manic episode that precisely believed he was on a mission from God and wound up in handcuffs after trying to cash a million dollar check he wrote to give to charity.

As MtG has brought up several times on this board, in Ken Wilber's book Transformations of Consciousness, he mentions that people with BPD often mistake their diminished ego for ego transcendence, but in reality a healthy ego is required to make that paradigm shift.  Looks like this guy has made a nice little career of it.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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OfflinePed
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob] * 2
    #20921262 - 12/03/14 04:57 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> Wow man, thank you for sharing. Your story sounds very similar to mine, except I haven't been to your extremes (yet?). I don't think my ups and downs are dramatic as yours, but still....the way you spelt that all out was so eerilie similar in many areas that I could of written it myself.

As I'll discuss in the rest of my reply, depression is an entire spectrum of states spanning a vast array of attributes, scopes, and potential outcomes.  Two people with highly similar experiences can vary in just one attribute, living completely different lives as a result.  As a bipolar ii patient, my experiences with hypomania represent only a tiny fraction of my life to date.  95% of the time, my experience is indistinguishable from major depressive disorder, but that other 5% contains a cluster of additional features which have done the most damage to my life by far.  By far.

In this way, it's possible for you and I to share many similar experiences and many similar struggles, and the depth of those experiences can be every bit as powerful in their life-altering potential, but while one of us will probably require medication for the rest of his life, the other might require it for a couple of years, a couple of months, or not at all.  It really is like that, and so I don't think you have to worry about developing manic episodes or anything like that. 


>> I'll be honest man, I've thought about getting help a few times. I've actually only told about three people in person about my struggles, and I told them very little. I'm scared of the stigma

Depression is a sadly misunderstood illness, and we have the pharmaceutical industry to thank for this in large part.  It's because of the pharmaceutical industry that tens of millions of people are taking antidepressant medications.  A high percentage of these individuals do not actually require these prescriptions to attain to a level of wellness, because their "depression", i.e., persistently low mood, has to do with poor lifestyle choices or unsatisfying life conditions, neither of which require the attention of doctors.  As a result of this over-prescribing, a perception has developed that depression is word that describes the feeling a person has when they're not happy with their life.

This over-prescribing has not only corrupted the trust of the general public in medical science, it has also generated a horrendously vicious stigma which suggests that people who are suffering from depression just aren't trying hard enough, or just aren't smart enough to take better care of themselves and their affairs.  This is, in my opinion, not unlike suggesting that homosexuality is a choice.  It is a sad, sad state of affairs.  But thankfully, the scientific community doesn't bother with any of that nonsense, and continues to refine our insight into depression, its physiological and environmental factors, as well as potential treatment strategies.

From a scientific point of view, life satisfaction is just one attribute of depression. It is one of many, many diagnostic criteria, and it does not define the illness by any means.  Not even close.  In simple but less-than-precise terms, depression refers to a brain that's not communicating with itself properly: some aspects are communicating too much, while others aren't communicating enough.  More specifically (and wordily), depression a neurological state in which some or many signalling pathways involved in generating the subjective experience of certain emotions have become pathologically disproportionate in either their physiological expression or electrochemical function.  In other words, it is a maldistribution of certain structural aspects of the brain's neuronal configuration, or it is a functional deficit in an otherwise healthy structural framework. 

When these conditions are present, it becomes difficult or impossible for the individual to exhibit a consistently healthy emotional pattern which corresponds smoothly with the practical, material, and social circumstances of their human life.  These conditions are mediated by genetic components, and environmental causes are a major component of their pathogenesis.  Once it begins, it gradually (or sometimes rapidly) decouples from its environmental factors -- this is the genetic or biological component at work.  In my case, one or more of the following genes are highly likely to be involved: G72/DAOA, DISC1, NRG1, TPH2, BDNF, 5-HTT, and DAT1 (I don't fully understand these either).  You may carry some of these genes, or you may not.  That is beyond our purview, and that is why we have doctors who specialize in these kinds of things.

And so while your aversion to inviting the stigma is perfectly understandable, at least you have the benefit of knowing that the stigma is categorically incorrect.


>> I'm scared of starting down the road of doctors and pills and all that. I'm scared I'm gonna take a pill and my personality will dramatically change and my dick might not work and...idk, like I said I just don't trust that stuff. Not because they are influenced by money but because I'm not convinced they know enough to truely help me.

Until recently, depression was understood as belonging to certain phenotypes, spread across a dozen or so different headings.  Under this paradigm, the diagnostic criteria for depression of all types amounted to a series of check lists, itself a low-resolution process which reflected the low-resolution insights into depression that were characteristic of mid-late 20th century science.  This low-resolution view made for the development of imprecise medications which came with troubling side effects that kept the margins of tolerability quite narrow.

In recent years, advances in neuroimaging technology and experimental methodology have increased this resolution by orders of magnitude.  These advances have patterned that of mobile phone screen resolution, beginning with Nokia "peanut" and going all the way up to the Samsung Galaxy S5, or in other words: leaps and bounds.  This has prompted the scientific community to update its understanding of depression in some profoundly significant ways.

Depression is now coming to be understood as a spectrum disorder with a complex neuronal substrate.  This has opened up new frontiers of research into depressive disorders, such that treatments are also increasing in their sophistication and targeted efficacy.  There is still a long way to go before we fully understand depression, but there have been more breakthroughs than is generally perceived.

Be that as it may, the pharmaceutical industry is indeed corrupt, and this has generated an enormous amount of interference between medical science and the people who would benefit from its insight and assistance.  Primary caregivers are routinely manipulated to prioritize their practice around brand loyalty, and healthy individuals are manipulated into pursuing therapies and treatments they do not require.  All of this is good reason to be reticent about engaging the contemplation with a doctor or psychiatrist.

It is not a good reason to avoid engaging a contemplation with such a professional, though, and as such it shouldn't be a deciding factor as to whether or not you do.  The unfortunate realities of for-profit medicine are such that those who would seek the advice of the medical community have to be vigilant about ensuring they receive quality care.  This requires a certain amount of independent research and education.  This can be intimidating, but if it's less intimidating than the depression itself there won't be any trouble motivating the inquiry.

There are antidepressants which will restore aspects of a depressed patient's personality, and there are antidepressants that will do this without sexual side effects.  Individuals who live with sexual side effects on a medication that only dulls their affect are not on the correct medication.  More often than not, it's because their doctor is asleep at the wheel, and the patient hasn't realized this breech of trust.  That's definitely a situation you'll want to avoid if you do decide to go that route.


>> Like if Alan Watts or any of those people you mentioned took meds would they still have done all that great stuff?

Maybe. But then again, maybe not. Personally, I don't think so.  If a person's eccentric or abnormal mood state contributes positively to their art or other talent, and if this contributes positively to their feeling of success in life, then this isn't somebody who is suffering from a disorder.  If a person's eccentric or abnormal mood state prevents a person from utilizing their talents, or from developing them to their full potential, then this is somebody who is suffering from a disorder.  Either mood state can have many common attributes with the other, with one requiring treatment and the other not.  Ultimately it's a question of what impact it has on a person's quality of life.

What I can tell you is that I've lost 20 years of my life, and that I'll never get them back.  I can tell you that I'm in my 30's now, and I have to live with the many doors of opportunity that have now slammed shut behind me because I was ultimately too proud to go ask for medical advice from medical scientists.  I was so afraid of losing some part of myself by asking for help--either by admitting that the problem was beyond my control, or by accepting treatments or medicines that I worried might corrupt my very being--that I sacrificed 20 years to avoid it.  It wasn't worth it, and that's why I'm so adamant about this subject.

Again, though, I realize that you are not me and I am not you.  I don't think you should feel like our stories are the same, despite some similar experiences with the depressed experience itself.  As I was saying earlier, depression is a spectrum disorder: the level of treatment you need may range from none at all to multi-vectored and intensive.  What I'm interested in here is fully describing the pitfall that cost me a big chunk of my life, so that you can identify and avert its consequences should it happen to appear before you.


>> But at the same time, I'm at my wits end here. I have so so so many good things going for me and I feel like they're being wasted on someone incapable of appreciating them.

That's what it does, man.  "Incapable" is the word -- it indicates that your executive function is able to evaluate and identify the good things in your life as positive aspects to be appreciated and enjoyed, yet the electrochemical signalling required to generate the appreciation and enjoyment is not responding normally to that input.  No matter what the cause of that disconnect--whether it be genetic, biochemical, diet/lifestyle, or just raw psychology--that's the physiological substrate of what's occurring.  Correcting that problem involves correctly identifying why those two aspects of your neurophysiology are not communicating correctly.

Answering that question takes time, and can be a frustrating search.  But most importantly, all possible explanations need to be kept on the table, because if a possible explanation is rejected out of apprehension, fear, pride, or whatever reason, it has the potential to delay your access to the right solution indefinitely, costing you years of your life.

This is an excellent video.  It illustrates how depression can include physiological factors, biological factors, psychological factors, or any combination of these, and it describes this contemplation in exceptional detail that's both nuanced and easy to understand.  I highly recommend it to anyone who is seeking understand depression for their own sake, or for the sake of a loved one.


--------------------


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Edited by Ped (12/03/14 05:14 AM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20921270 - 12/03/14 05:01 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> This is just shameful.

You got that right.  Ugh, that was hard to watch.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20921284 - 12/03/14 05:12 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
No, but I do have an undergraduate psychology degree (took my education in a different direction postgrad) and I have met a person undergoing a manic episode that precisely believed he was on a mission from God and wound up in handcuffs after trying to cash a million dollar check he wrote to give to charity.

As MtG has brought up several times on this board, in Ken Wilber's book Transformations of Consciousness, he mentions that people with BPD often mistake their diminished ego for ego transcendence, but in reality a healthy ego is required to make that paradigm shift.  Looks like this guy has made a nice little career of it.




Stop slandering people

Though, Ken Wilber is a tit, and has one of the biggest egos so he's got room to talk!

A psychology degree ey? uuuuuu See this:
Quote:

If psychosis is a rational response to abuse, let’s talk about itMany people consider their “psychotic” experiences a vital survival tool, but above all they need to make sense of their experiences[/url]



There is something of a sea change in the way we understand experiences that have traditionally been labelled as psychotic.
In our culture at least, experiences such as hearing voices or seeing visions have long been viewed by the medical establishment as unequivocal symptoms of mental illness. Treatment has tended to focus on the suppression of such “symptoms” using antipsychotic medication.

Research (often funded by drugs companies) has been largely concerned with the brain as a physical organ, rather than with the person within whose head it is housed, or indeed with their life experience. And, because of the presumption that psychotic symptoms are the preserve of mentally ill people, estimates of the numbers affected have been based on the numbers who have received a particular diagnosis.

But a report published last week by the British Psychological Society’s division of clinical psychology, challenges many of these assumptions. Understanding Psychosis and Schizophrenia  presents a compelling case for trying to understand psychotic experiences as opposed to merely categorising them. It argues that such experiences can be understood from a psychological perspective, in the same way as other thoughts and feelings, rather than being placed on the other side of an artificial sick/healthy divide.

And, indeed, they appear to be much more common than is frequently supposed. According to the report, up to 10% of the population has heard a voice speaking when nobody was there and almost one in three holds beliefs that might be considered paranoid. Two in three people who had heard voices or seen visions did not seek help because they were untroubled by them. And, of course, there is huge diversity in the way such experiences are understood and valued in different cultures.

For those who find their experiences unwelcome and disturbing (and they can be extremely disturbing; I don’t think anyone questions that) the range of help on offer is decidedly limited. Despite the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence recommending that everyone with a diagnosis of schizophrenia is offered cognitive behaviour therapy(CBT), only one in 10 has access to it  . Treatment by medication alone, forcibly if needed, is the norm.

It is widely accepted that early life experience, trauma, abuse and deprivation greatly increase the risk of developing psychosis. Indeed, research  suggests that experiencing multiple childhood traumas gives approximately the same risk of developing psychosis as smoking does for developing lung cancer.

Many people object to the psychotic label because they consider their experiences a natural reaction to the abuse they have suffered, and even a vital survival tool. What they want above all is space and time to talk about their experiences and to make sense of them. It is shocking how few are given this opportunity.

Of course, psychological approaches to helping those with psychosis will not suit everyone. There are those for whom a diagnosis can come as a welcome relief. Many people find medication helpful, as treatment on its own or alongside talking therapies.

In fact, one of the most persuasive messages of the report is that people should be allowed to understand their experience in their own way, without professionals insisting on a particular interpretation.

It is a highly collaborative approach and fitting that at least a quarter of those who contributed to the report have lived experience of psychosis. Their opinions and experiences are as varied as you would expect with any group of individuals but together they comprise an enormously powerful and vivid testimony to the full range of human experience and to the many and varied ways in which we can help each other to make sense of it.


emphasis mine

Edited by zzripz (12/03/14 05:15 AM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #20921300 - 12/03/14 05:27 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

"Research (often funded by drugs companies)"

"people should be allowed to understand their experience in their own way, without professionals insisting on a particular interpretation."

This is taking it much too far.  Yes, drug companies market heavily to patients and doctors, and yes this corrupts patient care, but there is no shadowy "big pharma" cabal shoving diagnoses and pills down people's throats.  Medical professionals aren't forcing people to accept diagnoses: people accept diagnoses on their own.  There's too much faith in doctors sometimes, and there's too little independent thought most times, but this doesn't mean the doctors are part of some drug pushing cartel exploiting the weak and defenceless. This just isn't a feature of reality. 

It's important to distinguish between people who are carrying out scientific research, and people who are selling things.  Yes, sometimes the people who are selling things fund the people who are carrying out the research, but this doesn't mean they are buying the scientific results they want.  That just doesn't happen, because science is a peer-reviewed process lacking central oversight.  It is as impossible to control as file sharing.

What drug companies do is infiltrate medical journals by installing their shills in senior editor jobs.  These well-paid collaborators will pick and choose which studies to publish and which not, manipulating the available data to present a skewed picture to the broader scientific community.  This significantly impairs scientific communication, and it does compromise patient care to some extent, but the scientific research going on behind these antics remains entirely valid, and our best source of insight into mental illness and its treatments.  It is alive and well.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20921309 - 12/03/14 05:35 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Actually, the funding of the FDA testing by the same drug companies providing the drugs, has shown to be completely corrupt in several cases.  In spite of contradictions and serious side effects and the protests of some of the FDA reviewers themselves, the drugs get approved.  Phen-fen anyone?


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: LunarEclipse] * 1
    #20921319 - 12/03/14 05:41 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> Actually, the funding of the FDA testing by the same drug companies providing the drugs, has shown to be completely corrupt in several cases.  In spite of contradictions and serious side effects and the protests of some of the FDA reviewers themselves, the drugs get approved.

Yes, that does happen occasionally--perhaps more often than some would like to admit--and it is a component of the corruption inherent to for-profit medicine.  This doesn't invalidate the entire field of medical science, however, as medical science is not concerned with these kind of antics.  Medical science is concerned with understanding human health as it actually is according to evidence, rigorous testing, empirical verification, and peer review.

I am aware of several medications that should never have made it to market.  Some of these have been pulled, and some of them are still on the market right now.  I am also aware of drugs which never did it make to market, either because they didn't meet the legally mandated margins of acceptable safety, or because the drug company voluntarily withdrew their application upon discovering an anomaly in its data.

There are many of shades of grey to this world of profit-driven medicine.  It is not as simple as "yes, they are stainless and pure" or "no, they are evil and corrupt".  There are a number of corrupt threads wound through it, and the consequences of these can be terrible at times, but the cord of medical science is intact nonetheless, and it represents the best instrument we've got for helping people climb out from the bottom of these kinds of wells.


--------------------


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Edited by Ped (12/03/14 05:52 AM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20921386 - 12/03/14 06:38 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Lots of information I wish I had had 30 years ago. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20922690 - 12/03/14 01:30 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Ped dude, I'd start taking your opinions more seriously if you struck me as a positive, cheerful, carefree person. As it is you strike me as belligerent, finding issue and fault, looking for problems, splitting hairs. I'm sure you've put in all kinds of sincere study time, I just wouldn't want to walk in your shoes, whatever troubles you had in your past, IMO you're not quite past them.

Jimboob, just start gradually shifting that focus, follow your positive drives and impulses more, see how it works. Give time and attention to your fascinations, curiosities, quirks and individual preferences. Refuse to fit in or act just to please people, and also refuse to give excessive explanations for why you do the things you do. You're a man, and the only explanation the world needs for why you chose to do something, is because you felt like it.

If you feel drawn and empowered and inspired by the idea of shrinks and therapists, by all mean dive into it. Especially if you find someone that inspires you and radiates trust, if you get the gut feeling that they know what they're doing and would like to be more like them.

If, as I happen to think, you're a bit suspicious of the field, have seen a bunch of dubious therapists that don't inspire more than one's next door neighbor, then I'd say steer clear and seek your fortunes wherever your heart sends you. One thing you'll be sparing yourself is the worried victim mentality, the vocabulary that's focused on disease and dysfunction, etc.

I don't know what Alan Watts would have sounded like if he'd been put on SSRI's in his day, but I know I would miss at least half the colors and poetry and good vibes, if I had been.

I'd recommend Ayahuasca ceremonies, Peyote sweat lodges and going to mushroom curanderos any day of the week, before going to some Western therapist. They simply don't have that much to work with, talk therapy and rudimentary pharma pills. Stone age ineffective crap, when compared to what traditional methods bring to the table.


--------------------
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For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific] * 1
    #20922774 - 12/03/14 01:48 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Alright, you've stated your opinion, and now I'll state mine.

>> I'd start taking your opinions more seriously if you struck me as a positive, cheerful, carefree person. As it is you strike me as belligerent, finding issue and fault, looking for problems, splitting hairs. I'm sure you've put in all kinds of sincere study time, I just wouldn't want to walk in your shoes, whatever troubles you had in your past, IMO you're not quite past them.

Thanks for your assessment, doctor. :rolleyes: I thought you were in this thread for the OP, and not for me?  Why are you psychoanalyzing me now too?  Did I ask for your input?  For the record, your input on my private life is not welcome, and I'd thank you to refrain from offering it again.  I posted some of its details here for the OP's benefit, not yours.

Simply because I take issue with you, your approach, and your sincerity, doesn't mean that I'm "not quite past my troubles."  I'm not cheerful with you because I see you and your "advice" as disingenuous, uninformed, and potentially harmful to people with really-existing medical problems affecting their mental health.  You don't make much of an attempt to listen to and understand others, are quick to impose your private perceptions of them and their struggles as though these things qualify as legitimate insight, and you routinely confuse your own subjective beliefs as having objective value or relevance.

Being "cheerful" and "carefree" doesn't constitute a license to be obnoxiously self-absorbed, and calling a spade a spade doesn't mean someone has lingering emotional issues.  You strut into this thread like you have all the answers, dispensing advice with potentially life-disrupting consequences as though it's to be taken as gospel, even though no one was asking for advice to begin with.  It's reckless and egotistical, and for that reason it is appropriate to identify it as reckless and egotistical.

Now that we've traded opinions, I think it's best if we stop addressing each other in this thread.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific] * 1
    #20922818 - 12/03/14 01:57 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Ped dude, I'd start taking your opinions more seriously if you struck me as a positive, cheerful, carefree person. As it is you strike me as belligerent, finding issue and fault, looking for problems, splitting hairs. I'm sure you've put in all kinds of sincere study time, I just wouldn't want to walk in your shoes, whatever troubles you had in your past, IMO you're not quite past them.


You're just posting stupid nonsense now imo.  Making it personal and about the poster rather than the subject.

If this is all you have for us I'll suggest you drop out now.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander]
    #20923155 - 12/03/14 03:11 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
If this is all you have for us I'll suggest you drop out now.




Agreed.

However I thank you Ped tremendously for what you have posted in this thread, I believe it takes real courage to express what you have here. I have followed with great interest and it has helped me somewhat in understanding some of the subtleties of my wife's condition and how she must deal with the cards she has been given.

Keep on fighting the good fight man, my respect for all your efforts goes out to you.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20923274 - 12/03/14 03:34 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Glad to see you bring more of the tense, rigid and very very serious attitude to the convo. That's what OP and life in general needs. More tense rigid humorless attitudes, cold as ice, annoyed if possible, or at the very least concerned. Worried. In any case the forehead should definitely be frowning. It's good for ya :lol:


Member forum temp-banned for this post.  Don't make the argument personal.
-johnm214


--------------------
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For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16

Edited by johnm214 (12/06/14 01:05 PM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific]
    #20923377 - 12/03/14 03:55 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Too Corrupt, Too Insane, and Too Ridiculous to Be Reformed? Even Establishment Psychiatrists Now Distancing Themselves from Their Own Profession

What does it tell us about the state of psychiatry when some of the biggest names in the psychiatric establishment are distancing themselves from psychiatry’s diagnostic system and its treatments?

In 2013, National Institute Mental Health (NIMH) director Thomas Insel, citing the lack of scientific validity of psychiatry’s official diagnostic manual, the DSM, stated  that the “NIMH will be re-orienting its research away from DSM categories.” In response, Robert Whitaker, investigative reporter and author of Anatomy of an Epidemic, observed  , “This is like the King of Psychiatry saying that the discipline has no clothes.”

“When Insel states that the disorders haven’t been validated,” Whitaker points out, “he is stating that the entire edifice that modern psychiatry is built upon is flawed, and unsupported by science. . . If the public loses faith in the DSM, and comes to see it as unscientific, then psychiatry has a real credibility problem on its hands.”


Other establishment psychiatrists are also distancing themselves from psychiatry’s diagnostic manual. Psychiatrist Allen Frances, the former chair of the DSM-4 task force, now writes about how the DSM is a money machine for drug companies (“Last Plea To DSM-5: Save Grief From the Drug Companies [read all of article here]



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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #20923401 - 12/03/14 03:58 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> I thank you Ped tremendously for what you have posted in this thread, I believe it takes real courage to express what you have here. I have followed with great interest and it has helped me somewhat in understanding some of the subtleties of my wife's condition and how she must deal with the cards she has been given.

>> Keep on fighting the good fight man, my respect for all your efforts goes out to you.

This was very heart-warming to hear, and I have more gratitude to you for expressing it that I can accurately convey across this medium.  The unnecessary turmoil, grief, and loss I've had to endure over the past 20 years is sometimes too senseless to bear, and I am frequently haunted by "all that could've been", but if I can distil my experiences into words and communicate them effectively to others in a manner which helps them avoid a similar outcome, somehow that confers an amount of meaning onto what I've been through. In some small but intensely meaningful way, it brings a sense of balance into my universe.  Thank you.

At the end of the day, individuals who are drowning in depression benefit most when their loved ones seek to understand and appreciate both the enormity of what they're going through, and the strength that's required to navigate it.  You've shown this to me, and if you show it to your wife (or continue to do so) I'm confident it'll do her a world of good, even if she's not presently able to express it very clearly.  Best of luck to you and yours.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #20923552 - 12/03/14 04:21 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

In 2013, National Institute Mental Health (NIMH) director Thomas Insel, citing the lack of scientific validity of psychiatry’s official diagnostic manual, the DSM, stated  that the “NIMH will be re-orienting its research away from DSM categories.” In response, Robert Whitaker, investigative reporter and author of Anatomy of an Epidemic, observed  , “This is like the King of Psychiatry saying that the discipline has no clothes.”

[...]

“he is stating that the entire edifice that modern psychiatry is built upon is flawed, and unsupported by science. . . If the public loses faith in the DSM, and comes to see it as unscientific, then psychiatry has a real credibility problem on its hands.”




Please take this paranoid nonsense elsewhere.  The DSM is not the "official diagnostic manual" of psychiatry, nor has it ever been.  It is a compendium of observations and practical insights which is used to facilitate communication between health care professionals, obviate and streamline the diagnostic process, and facilitate expediency in pairing patients with the care they require.  It has never been integral to the field of psychiatry, and it never will be. 

The DSM has always been a controversial document, and it has never been seen as either authoritative or definitive.  It is a diagnostic tool, and like all instruments it can be used correctly or incorrectly.  When it is used incorrectly, the DSM places a very low ceiling on the field of psychiatry, and it shoves complex, dynamic human beings under rigid headings and categories.  When it is used correctly, the DSM makes the diagnostic process more efficient, the research process more fluid, and the quality of patient care more refined.

To suggest that the DSM represents the entire field of psychiatry is like saying that browsing a travel brochure in a San Francisco hotel room is tantamount to experiencing all the culture and history that city has to offer.  It's absurd.  A travel brochure helps tourists decide which attractions are right for them, and the DSM helps medical professionals determine which vectors of diagnostic inquiry are most sensible to pursue.  That's all.

The only people who are taking the DSM criteria as gospel are the paranoid whackjobs who think the entire field of medical science is some mind-control racket.  It is paranoid nonsense, and it does not pertain to reality in any way, shape, or form.  The DSM is surrounded by controversy, and that's exactly how it should be.  Controversy around the DSM helps keep psychiatrists and other primary caregivers from going on autopilot.  Controversy around the DSM is good for patient care, because it forces a constant re-evaluation of what we think we understand about mental health and mental health disorders.







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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20923571 - 12/03/14 04:24 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
This was very heart-warming to hear, and I have more gratitude to you for expressing it that I can accurately convey across this medium.  The unnecessary turmoil, grief, and loss I've had to endure over the past 20 years is sometimes too senseless to bear, and I am frequently haunted by "all that could've been", but if I can distil my experiences into words and communicate them effectively to others in a manner which helps them avoid a similar outcome, somehow that confers an amount of meaning onto what I've been through. In some small but intensely meaningful way, it brings a sense of balance into my universe.  Thank you.

At the end of the day, individuals who are drowning in depression benefit most when their loved ones seek to understand and appreciate both the enormity of what they're going through, and the strength that's required to navigate it.  You've shown this to me, and if you show it to your wife (or continue to do so) I'm confident it'll do her a world of good, even if she's not presently able to express it very clearly.  Best of luck to you and yours.




Man, as you say, no words can express. A hug would do it, and if I could I would hug you good and proper for the help you have given me in understanding.

I completely get what you're saying. Thank you too man.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific]
    #20924081 - 12/03/14 06:03 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Spacerific said:
Glad to see you bring more of the tense, rigid and very very serious attitude to the convo. That's what OP and life in general needs. More tense rigid humorless attitudes, cold as ice, annoyed if possible, or at the very least concerned. Worried. In any case the forehead should definitely be frowning. It's good for ya :lol:




What would you know about humor?

btw fuck off with making it personal. :braindamage:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #20924135 - 12/03/14 06:13 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> Man, as you say, no words can express. A hug would do it, and if I could I would hug you good and proper for the help you have given me in understanding. I completely get what you're saying. Thank you too man.

:hug:


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20925324 - 12/03/14 09:56 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Some easily wound up people on this thread. :minigun:

That Cracked article was interesting, I didn't realise how anger is so often linked to depression. You can see it on this thread, some genuine rage is hidden behind some of the posts.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: viktor]
    #20925387 - 12/03/14 10:12 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> You can see it on this thread, some genuine rage is hidden behind some of the posts.

The more you think you understand about how other people think and feel, the less you actually understand about how other people think and feel.  Instead of concerning yourself with analyzing and/or judging others and their disposition, concern yourself with monitoring your own perceptions and disposition.  Apart from this, it is impossible to develop any meaningful insight into the human experiences and its many nuances, and it is impossible to be of any practical benefit to others, except maybe by accident.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20925403 - 12/03/14 10:17 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> You can see it on this thread, some genuine rage is hidden behind some of the posts.

The more you think you understand about how other people think and feel, the less you actually understand about how other people think and feel.




How much do I think I understand about how other people think and feel? And how could you know the answer to that without thinking you understand how I think and feel?


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: viktor] * 1
    #20925438 - 12/03/14 10:26 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: viktor]
    #20925444 - 12/03/14 10:27 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

:tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped] * 2
    #20925448 - 12/03/14 10:29 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)



This link you gave was an excellent lecture, and I figured I'd repost it so it was embedded (more people might check it).


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #20925531 - 12/03/14 10:50 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> This link you gave was an excellent lecture, and I figured I'd repost it so it was embedded (more people might check it).

Good thinking, thanks!  What's really encouraging is that this 2009 video, despite being loaded with tons of cutting-edge information at the time of its recording, is nonetheless a bit dated now.  Its content is still wholly relevant, but we know even more about depression today than we did just five years ago.  Neuroscience is a burgeoning field of study right now, and I have a feeling we're going to see some major strides in the coming decades.  That means future depression sufferers will have far superior treatment options and far better outcomes than they do today.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20925550 - 12/03/14 10:56 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Lol. You've been hoist by your own petard here Ped. Are you too arrogant to admit when you've been caught out?


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: viktor]
    #20925584 - 12/03/14 11:08 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I won't be taking the bait.  If you really need to feel like you've won, or that you've "caught" someone with your "insight", go pester someone else, and please stop addressing me in this thread.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20925587 - 12/03/14 11:09 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
I won't be taking the bait.  If you really need to feel like you've won, or that you've "caught" someone with your "insight", go pester someone else, and please stop addressing me in this thread.




So angry. You know this is a debate forum, right? You have to expect that your logical errors will be pointed out to you. If you can't handle being wrong you might like to try a different forum.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Edited by viktor (12/03/14 11:15 PM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: viktor]
    #20925620 - 12/03/14 11:21 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

If you think your posts are so powerful as to activate "anger" and "rage" in others, it means you have a distorted opinion of your posts and their significance.  The reality is that I find your fallacious goading rather boring, and I'm disappointed at how you're polluting this thread with it.  This will be my last response to you in this thread, which means that irresistible last world belongs to you now.  Use it wisely.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20925636 - 12/03/14 11:27 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
If you think your posts are so powerful as to activate "anger" and "rage" in others, it means you have a distorted opinion of your posts and their significance.  The reality is that I find your fallacious goading rather boring, and I'm disappointed at how you're polluting this thread with it.  This will be my last response to you in this thread, which means that irresistible last world belongs to you now.  Use it wisely.




You miss the fact that asking a question cannot be a fallacy, so my asking how you can lecture me about not knowing how other people think and feel while at the same time assuming that you know how I think and feel is not a fallacy. It's a request for elucidation.

As I see it, you've destroyed your own credibility by contradicting yourself in this manner, and by seeing personal attacks when they are non-existent. Your calling my posts "pollution" really is a bit silly and childish, as is ignoring everyone who disagrees with you.

It's a shame that this narrow-minded and hysterical approach is used here, as underneath the arrogance I think you have something valuable to say.

Moreover, I never thought my posts were "so powerful as to activate "anger" and "rage" in others." I merely observed that a lot of anger was evident in this thread. If you can't handle that without assuming it's a personal attack then you need to learn that the world doesn't revolve around you.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Edited by viktor (12/03/14 11:33 PM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: viktor]
    #20925703 - 12/03/14 11:51 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

"Getting plowed in the ass by Marilyn Manson? Enter the Now from there." - Eckhart Tolle

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Middleman] * 1
    #20925899 - 12/04/14 01:22 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rev. Morton said:
"Getting plowed in the ass by Marilyn Manson? Enter the Now from there." - Eckhart Tolle




Lmao

Holy shit this thread man. I hope this helps someone in the future.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20926333 - 12/04/14 04:49 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

it should do as long as they don't take 'ped' seriously.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz] * 2
    #20926475 - 12/04/14 05:12 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Ped is the one who had the most useful information on depression.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20926783 - 12/04/14 07:26 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
it should do as long as they don't take 'ped' seriously.




But we should take you seriously?  You seem to find yourself in Ped's position here a lot.  Funny how you'd do to him.

A post like yours above really adds no information to your belief that Ped should not be taken seriously.  Give a concrete example of why nothing he says should be taken seriously.  I'm all eyes.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: akira_akuma]
    #20927144 - 12/04/14 09:04 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Ped is the one who had the most useful information on depression.



according to you not me.
Also his philosophy of life is not for me. He has revealed in other posts on other subjects that he is into scientific materialism. I am not, and other spiritually-inclined people are not usually either (by 'spiritual' I am meaning it in an earth-based pagan definition), so his whole perspective on 'mental health' and the psychiatric system which looks at 'mental illness' as caused by a defective brain are not akin to where I am at at all. In fact I see that materialist philosophy is the toxic myth which CAUSES much dis-ease. And I see the shrinks and psychologists who support it as the gatekeepers of the materialist myth.
So there is a great impasse between me and ped's worldview and those who support his worldview.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20927198 - 12/04/14 09:16 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I think we already figured that out. :lol:

Your comment was to disregard him. That's always a red flag for me.  With you for instance I'm generally in agreement to some extent with what you post.  Not in this thread but usually.  However I don't discount you in total due to your opinions in this area.

I'm sure it's been pointed out to you that there is a hypocrisy in condemning scientific materialism as the great evil while making use of it to post here.

In Peds last incarnation here he was posting more like where you come from.  However he's been open to change and I've watched it happen.  IMO it's mostly for the better.

Just sayin. :shrug:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #20927205 - 12/04/14 09:17 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

And imo scientific materialism is a great boon to mankind.  It's the heart of man where the problem is. And not just the 1% but rather (imo) in all of us.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #20927232 - 12/04/14 09:23 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Ped is the one who had the most useful information on depression.



according to you not me.
Also his philosophy of life is not for me. He has revealed in other posts on other subjects that he is into scientific materialism. I am not, and other spiritually-inclined people are not usually either (by 'spiritual' I am meaning it in an earth-based pagan definition), so his whole perspective on 'mental health' and the psychiatric system which looks at 'mental illness' as caused by a defective brain are not akin to where I am at at all. In fact I see that materialist philosophy is the toxic myth which CAUSES much dis-ease. And I see the shrinks and psychologists who support it as the gatekeepers of the materialist myth.
So there is a great impasse between me and ped's worldview and those who support his worldview.



so not Jesus... and not science? but...? cookies?

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: akira_akuma]
    #20927300 - 12/04/14 09:35 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Ped is the one who had the most useful information on depression.



:rofl:

:goodluckwiththat2:


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz] * 2
    #20927327 - 12/04/14 09:41 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> So there is a great impasse between me and ped's worldview and those who support his worldview.

There are those who understand mental health according to evidence and observation, and there are those who understand mental health according to sentimentality and belief.  For this to be conceived as a "great impasse", it must be assumed that sentimentality and belief are on equal footing with evidence and observation as far as describing reality is concerned.  This assumption is false, because evidence and observation are concerned with reality as it actually exists, while sentimentality and belief are concerned with what "feels" right in a purely arbitrary, purely subjective, pure irrelevant sense.

Not all world views are deserving of equal credibility, equal respect, or equal voice, because some world views are demonstrably incorrect or irrelevant.


>> I see the shrinks and psychologists who support it as the gatekeepers of the materialist myth.

This paranoid, suspicious, or otherwise cynical outlook is political in nature, and it is a belief that you espouse and apparently feel strongly about.  It does not pertain to the really-existing, practical realities of depression and mental health, and there are individuals in this thread whose lives are affected by these really-existing, practical realities.  When you enter this thread with an axe to grind, or something to prove about "the gatekeepers" and their "materialist myth", you are causing distortion in a conversation where clarity is especially valuable to those whose lives are concerned with the subject matter at hand.

That is why it is prudent for individuals with direct experience and an evidence-based comprehension of the issues at hand to firmly confront this distortion when it appears.  Stop interfering in a productive conversation between affected individuals by using it as a platform for your emotionally charged political beliefs.  If you want to comment on the "gatekeepers of the materialist myth", I suggest you create a thread in Political Discussion, or Conspiracies and Cover-ups.  That sort of subject matter is appropriate to those forums.  It is not appropriate in this thread, which is about actual people dealing with actual depression and its actual consequences.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific] * 4
    #20927332 - 12/04/14 09:42 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Spacerific said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Ped is the one who had the most useful information on depression.



:rofl:

:goodluckwiththat2:



good come back. :archiebunker: PS: i didn't say anyone was wrong, but nice to see the butthurt.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #20927575 - 12/04/14 10:38 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Scientific materialism is just a mental tool. It can be misused like any tool. The when you've got a hammer everything looks like a nail phenomenon is evident with some of the physicalists here imo.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: viktor]
    #20927605 - 12/04/14 10:46 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I myself find the most comfort on the middle path.

:feelsweirdman:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Spacerific]
    #20927608 - 12/04/14 10:46 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Spacerific said:
Ped dude, I'd start taking your opinions more seriously if you struck me as a positive, cheerful, carefree person. As it is you strike me as belligerent, finding issue and fault, looking for problems, splitting hairs. I'm sure you've put in all kinds of sincere study time, I just wouldn't want to walk in your shoes, whatever troubles you had in your past, IMO you're not quite past them.




With this, you are saying that because I'm not a "positive, cheerful, carefree person" according to your private judgement, and because you've judged my own private health issues as "not quite resolved", my ideas should not be taken seriously.  Essentially what you are saying here is that my mental health struggles are affecting my demeanour and/or my judgement, and that this means my ideas are not deserving of practical consideration.  It also asserts that your mental health is so impeccable that you enjoy the special privilege of assessing others in this fashion.

I'd like you to reflect on how repugnant that is.  I didn't mention it earlier because productive conversations were happening, but there are others in my position who would be deeply wounded by such a low remark, and so I'm compelled to speak up on their behalf now.  You should be ashamed of yourself, twisting my heartfelt elucidation of a consumingly difficult struggle into a self-serving ad hominem fallacy, and then dispensing it with casual prejudice like that. Your remark was a dressed-up way of saying "don't listen to that guy, he's loony toons", and it reveals an ugly, grossly ignorant personality beneath your carefully groomed "O Wise One" image. 

The sooner you stop imagining yourself as being the man with all the deep, profound answers to everyone's troubles, the sooner you'll stop behaving so reprehensibly, whether it be by waltzing into threads and thumping out reckless, poorly-considered advice as gospel to people whose problems you neither listen to nor understand (and who never asked), or by telling other people with mental health struggles that their troubles disqualify their opinion from practical consideration.

Quote:

Icelander said:
You're just posting stupid nonsense now imo.  Making it personal and about the poster rather than the subject.

If this is all you have for us I'll suggest you drop out now.




Next time, take his advice, will ya?


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Icelander]
    #20927727 - 12/04/14 11:17 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I myself find the most comfort on the middle path.

:feelsweirdman:




During my childhood I saw a wide range of extreme behaviours from some pretty unstable people. One thing this did to me is cultivate an appreciation for peace, which naturally seemed to lead me to the middle path. I'm grateful for that, in a way.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20927756 - 12/04/14 11:28 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Here's another excellent video about the practical realities of this debilitating illness.  These are individuals whose depression is a medical problem with a physiological substrate.  Identifying what this kind of depression looks like is important, because it differentiates between low moods that can be managed with lifestyle and environmental adjustments, and clinical depression that must be treated in cooperation with qualified, specially trained mental health professionals.  This can be a difficult distinction to make even for those affected by depression, and so it's doubly important for the non-depressed to contemplate this distinction carefully if it is their wish to be helpful to others in this predicament.



No, this wasn't produced by the same people who faked the moon landing.  This video contains real human stories about real humans who are struggling with a real medical problem.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20927778 - 12/04/14 11:32 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:

There are those who understand mental health according to evidence and observation, and there are those who understand mental health according to sentimentality and belief.  For this to be conceived as a "great impasse", it must be assumed that sentimentality and belief are on equal footing with evidence and observation as far as describing reality is concerned.  This assumption is false, because evidence and observation are concerned with reality as it actually exists, while sentimentality and belief are concerned with what "feels" right in a purely arbitrary, purely subjective, pure irrelevant sense.

Not all world views are deserving of equal credibility, equal respect, or equal voice, because some world views are demonstrably incorrect or irrelevant.




And we keep trying to get through your thick skull there IS no actual medical evidence that 'mental illness' is biologically caused. None!

I have provided sources of evidence that support that information. All you do is use an arrrogant sounding sophistry to try and brow beat others who don't follow your ever-so-certain views, and also hold up the poor-me card because you think you suffered 'real depression' unlike others who have not. Well laddie, I have been some dark places also that you don't know about. And I am betting others here have also. Just because some alternative way didn't work for your sourpuss of a mind doesn't mean it won't for others more respective. But then you would change the goalposts wouldn't you and claim they weren't really 'depressed'. How do YOU fuckin know? Who are you mr big stuff that you know what you know. Are you a psychiatrist, doctor, psychologist? Where are your sources to back up what you claim---that there really is 'clinical depression' which a person can have a medical test for? Did you miss several links I have provided showing how even shrinks now are admitting it was a big con, though they call telling someone they have a chemical imbalance is a 'metaphor'.

The fact that I am spiritually inclined and rightly criticize the vile evil establishment amalgamation which is the shrinks who push big pharma toxic pills which are known to shorten lifespans and also cause other ACTUAL diseases which the fuckers then prescribe more drugs for, pretending symptoms via their authority are part of the so-called mental illness!


>> I see the shrinks and psychologists who support it as the gatekeepers of the materialist myth.

Quote:

This paranoid, suspicious, or otherwise cynical outlook is political in nature, and it is a belief that you espouse and apparently feel strongly about.  It does not pertain to the really-existing, practical realities of depression and mental health, and there are individuals in this thread whose lives are affected by these really-existing, practical realities.  When you enter this thread with an axe to grind, or something to prove about "the gatekeepers" and their "materialist myth", you are causing distortion in a conversation where clarity is especially valuable to those whose lives are concerned with the subject matter at hand.




OMFG, of course it is political! REAl spirituality and politics are always going together. This massive scam done to one and all by one of the most corrupt evil establishments to disgrace humanity affects people in spiritual, psychological, physical, 3economical, social ways. So of course it is including politics. Of course a feel strongly about it. You kiddin me?? Of course you would see my wanting to expose this as 'distortion'. Distortion of your warped reality which you obviously support. A very strange world where you see the evil of this but are willing to turn a blind eye for the good of science. When all along this shit is not based on science but pseudoscience and is used as social control by the political structure we are under. But all that you are blind to and want others to be, and hate anyone coming into a thread you are with to even mention it? So use the ignore button then if what I say bothers you.

Quote:

That is why it is prudent for individuals with direct experience and an evidence-based comprehension of the issues at hand to firmly confront this distortion when it appears.  Stop interfering in a productive conversation between affected individuals by using it as a platform for your emotionally charged political beliefs.  If you want to comment on the "gatekeepers of the materialist myth", I suggest you create a thread in Political Discussion, or Conspiracies and Cover-ups.  That sort of subject matter is appropriate to those forums.  It is not appropriate in this thread, which is about actual people dealing with actual depression and its actual consequences.



I am afraid this subject has to include all of that. it is false to think you can tackle a subject like this and pretend politics is not involved. That is entirely how it operates. The shrinks who push it also do not want you talking about your lives and also the economic pressures, etc on you. You and they are of the same ilk and that is why what we says disturbs you

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20927782 - 12/04/14 11:33 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Spacerific said:
whatever troubles you had in your past, IMO you're not quite past them.




This, IMO, is the most strikingly unpleasant comment in this thread.

Are any of us over our troubles? Somehow, I very much doubt it. I'd challenge any human being to say with truth that he/she is. That being the case, pointing out anyone else's troubles without invitation seems to me aloof, callous and mean.


Quote:

Ped said:
there are others in my position who would be deeply wounded by such a low remark, and so I'm compelled to speak up on their behalf now.




Myself included. When one is so deeply intertwined with conditions such as discussed in this thread, an 'all knowing' attitude based on little evidence does make one a little sore.

I can't say I've never thought like that myself, I have done, and have since seen (through pure exposure) the harm that that kind of attitude and subsequent speech can cause.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #20927788 - 12/04/14 11:34 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

:derpyouverymuch:


--------------------
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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20927790 - 12/04/14 11:35 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

Ped said:

There are those who understand mental health according to evidence and observation, and there are those who understand mental health according to sentimentality and belief.  For this to be conceived as a "great impasse", it must be assumed that sentimentality and belief are on equal footing with evidence and observation as far as describing reality is concerned.  This assumption is false, because evidence and observation are concerned with reality as it actually exists, while sentimentality and belief are concerned with what "feels" right in a purely arbitrary, purely subjective, pure irrelevant sense.

Not all world views are deserving of equal credibility, equal respect, or equal voice, because some world views are demonstrably incorrect or irrelevant.




And we keep trying to get through your thick skull there IS no actual medical evidence that 'mental illness' is biologically caused. None!

I have provided sources of evidence that support that information. All you do is use an arrrogant sounding sophistry to try and brow beat others who don't follow your ever-so-certain views, and also hold up the poor-me card because you think you suffered 'real depression' unlike others who have not. Well laddie, I have been some dark places also that you don't know about. And I am betting others here have also. Just because some alternative way didn't work for your sourpuss of a mind doesn't mean it won't for others more respective. But then you would change the goalposts wouldn't you and claim they weren't really 'depressed'. How do YOU fuckin know? Who are you mr big stuff that you know what you know. Are you a psychiatrist, doctor, psychologist? Where are your sources to back up what you claim---that there really is 'clinical depression' which a person can have a medical test for? Did you miss several links I have provided showing how even shrinks now are admitting it was a big con, though they call telling someone they have a chemical imbalance is a 'metaphor'.

The fact that I am spiritually inclined and rightly criticize the vile evil establishment amalgamation which is the shrinks who push big pharma toxic pills which are known to shorten lifespans and also cause other ACTUAL diseases which the fuckers then prescribe more drugs for, pretending symptoms via their authority are part of the so-called mental illness!


>> I see the shrinks and psychologists who support it as the gatekeepers of the materialist myth.

Quote:

This paranoid, suspicious, or otherwise cynical outlook is political in nature, and it is a belief that you espouse and apparently feel strongly about.  It does not pertain to the really-existing, practical realities of depression and mental health, and there are individuals in this thread whose lives are affected by these really-existing, practical realities.  When you enter this thread with an axe to grind, or something to prove about "the gatekeepers" and their "materialist myth", you are causing distortion in a conversation where clarity is especially valuable to those whose lives are concerned with the subject matter at hand.




OMFG, of course it is political! REAl spirituality and politics are always going together. This massive scam done to one and all by one of the most corrupt evil establishments to disgrace humanity affects people in spiritual, psychological, physical, 3economical, social ways. So of course it is including politics. Of course a feel strongly about it. You kiddin me?? Of course you would see my wanting to expose this as 'distortion'. Distortion of your warped reality which you obviously support. A very strange world where you see the evil of this but are willing to turn a blind eye for the good of science. When all along this shit is not based on science but pseudoscience and is used as social control by the political structure we are under. But all that you are blind to and want others to be, and hate anyone coming into a thread you are with to even mention it? So use the ignore button then if what I say bothers you.

Quote:

That is why it is prudent for individuals with direct experience and an evidence-based comprehension of the issues at hand to firmly confront this distortion when it appears.  Stop interfering in a productive conversation between affected individuals by using it as a platform for your emotionally charged political beliefs.  If you want to comment on the "gatekeepers of the materialist myth", I suggest you create a thread in Political Discussion, or Conspiracies and Cover-ups.  That sort of subject matter is appropriate to those forums.  It is not appropriate in this thread, which is about actual people dealing with actual depression and its actual consequences.



I am afraid this subject has to include all of that. it is false to think you can tackle a subject like this and pretend politics is not involved. That is entirely how it operates. The shrinks who push it also do not want you talking about your lives and also the economic pressures, etc on you. You and they are of the same ilk and that is why what we says disturbs you



hurt. butthurt.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20927813 - 12/04/14 11:42 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah I too try to take a balanced approach towards life in regards to western thinking and science vs what you might call eastern thinking, mysticism, new-age stuff and all that. Both have their values, and both can be taken too far.

But i think I need to sway the other way and start looking into therapy. Too much wishy washy new age drivel is confusing my brain. And my gut has always told me there is something wrong with those new-agey people. I'm not speaking of anyone in paticular here, but you know the type that have a superficial level of love and compassion, but beneath a fake and forced surface you see a damaged person ready to break down at any moment. Walking time-bombs man.

I don't know if I'll ever be comfortable taking meds, and I'm not sure if I actually need them. It could be purely psychological, and sometimes if i pay close enough attention I catch my mind spouting off some terribly self depreciating beliefs. For example I'm a very short male, and while I haven't had too much of an issue living a normal life, there's an underlying feeling of inferiority in the best of times, and the feeling that I'm an evolutionary mistake meant to be erased from the gene pool in the darkest of times.

Anyway this is all still speculation. Maybe just talking to someone will  help me get it out there instead of having it swirl around my head day after day. That's another big issue for me, dwelling and rumination. I am constantly trying to figure out this "problem," and I think it actually feeds itself by giving it so much attention. Last night I was just randomly drawing in a notebook, and realized what people mean when they talk about flow and being absorbed in something. There wasn't any depression there, just me drawing a shitty flower. The last time I felt like that I was carving pumpkins with my girlfriend, and we were getting really creative with it. I need more stuff like that in my life.

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20927828 - 12/04/14 11:46 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jimboob said:
Anyway this is all still speculation. Maybe just talking to someone will  help me get it out there instead of having it swirl around my head day after day. That's another big issue for me, dwelling and rumination. I am constantly trying to figure out this "problem," and I think it actually feeds itself by giving it so much attention. Last night I was just randomly drawing in a notebook, and realized what people mean when they talk about flow and being absorbed in something. There wasn't any depression there, just me drawing a shitty flower. The last time I felt like that I was carving pumpkins with my girlfriend, and we were getting really creative with it. I need more stuff like that in my life.




That sounds like a really great place to start man. Good luck and good vibes your way brother.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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OfflinePed
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20927857 - 12/04/14 11:52 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> And we keep trying to get through your thick skull there IS no actual medical evidence that 'mental illness' is biologically caused. None!

The opposite is the reality

Since I can't think of any possible way of responding to the rest of your diatribe without precipitating another counter-productive, vitriolic cascade, I'll refrain from addressing its content.

I will reiterate, however, that your personal political views do not belong in a thread where people are discussing the practical realities of their mental health struggles.  If you believe in an alternative approach, and if you believe describing that approach will be helpful, it has a place here, but if you want to argue that the entire field of medical science is a fraud, conspiracy, or otherwise fundamentally flawed, or if you have an axe to grind with western civilization and its deepest existential assumptions about the nature of the universe, those are conversations which belong elsewhere, because this is a thread where individuals are discussing the practical ramifications of their immediate experience.

This is something that we should be able to point out to each other without it being taken personally, and without all this huffing and puffing.


--------------------


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #20927874 - 12/04/14 11:56 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Thank you Beard  :happyheart:

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob] * 1
    #20927986 - 12/04/14 12:16 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> Yeah I too try to take a balanced approach towards life in regards to western thinking and science vs what you might call eastern thinking, mysticism, new-age stuff and all that. Both have their values, and both can be taken too far.

Just as it would be misguided to suppose that no effort is required but to meet appointments with psychiatrists and dutifully ingest pharmaceuticals, so too it would be misguided to suppose that some of the valuable insights and practices of other schools constitute the ultimate answer to any and all crises of consciousness.  It sounds like you're on the right track with a clear view, and this is quite heartening.  I wish I had this discernment when I was younger.


>> But i think I need to sway the other way and start looking into therapy. Too much wishy washy new age drivel is confusing my brain. And my gut has always told me there is something wrong with those new-agey people. I'm not speaking of anyone in paticular here, but you know the type that have a superficial level of love and compassion, but beneath a fake and forced surface you see a damaged person ready to break down at any moment. Walking time-bombs man.

Absolutely. Counsellors and psychotherapists can be really useful, while wishy-washy new age drivel is never useful.  Provided you can find counsellor who practices from their heart, and whose talents align with your needs, even just a few sessions with a therapist can set you on a highly constructive path.  That can be a difficult and frustrating search sometimes, but when you connect with the right person a lot of good things can happen.  Pursuing these kind of consultations might help clarify for you whether your mood difficulties can remedied with adjustments made to your lifestyle, environment, or cognitive habits, or if they signal an underlying biological component.


>> I don't know if I'll ever be comfortable taking meds, and I'm not sure if I actually need them. It could be purely psychological, and sometimes if i pay close enough attention I catch my mind spouting off some terribly self depreciating beliefs. For example I'm a very short male, and while I haven't had too much of an issue living a normal life, there's an underlying feeling of inferiority in the best of times, and the feeling that I'm an evolutionary mistake meant to be erased from the gene pool in the darkest of times.

Wow, thank you for sharing that.  That was a little window into your experience there.  I tend to agree again that if you can find a resolution which does not require pharmaceutical intervention, it is surely preferable to one that does.  Exploring the psychological nuances of the phenomenon with somebody who's trained to help you navigate it will probably go a long way toward clarifying this for you.  I think your approach is a good one here.


>> Anyway this is all still speculation. Maybe just talking to someone will  help me get it out there instead of having it swirl around my head day after day. That's another big issue for me, dwelling and rumination. I am constantly trying to figure out this "problem," and I think it actually feeds itself by giving it so much attention. Last night I was just randomly drawing in a notebook, and realized what people mean when they talk about flow and being absorbed in something. There wasn't any depression there, just me drawing a shitty flower. The last time I felt like that I was carving pumpkins with my girlfriend, and we were getting really creative with it. I need more stuff like that in my life.

It sounds like what you're describing here is what some new-agey types refer to as "The Now".  Eckhart Tolle has practically made this his trademark.  It has reached such popularity in these circles because there really is something to it: the ability to be completely with your experience in its entirety really is quite a special ability, and it is certainly a major positive for mental health. 

You might be interested in mindfulness meditation.  There is a book called The Mindful Way Through Depression, which attempts to apply traditional mindfulness meditation techniques to address exactly the sort of cognitive habits you're describing here.  I've found these sorts of techniques quite helpful, provided I don't take them too far and start conceiving them as inherently curative in nature.

Depression is a complex illness arising from a series of complex factors.  Because of this, treating depression is a complex process involving many vectors of approach.  If your depression has a biological component, a biological treatment will be a component of that approach.  If not, then not.  One can hope that your physiology will be cooperative as you go forward, but if it turns out to be uncooperative please don't delay addressing this: as I explained before, it can be costly.  It sounds like you're a smart guy, though, so I don't think you'll have any difficulty teasing this out.

It's heartening to see you thinking about solutions and possible vectors of support or treatment.  That usually precedes some initial success, at least in my experience.  There may be bumps in the road along the way, though, such that if you find yourself starting to feel better it's important that you stick with whatever it is that's helping you.  If things go sideways on you, and you find yourself falling back into the old despondency, it can twice as crushing after having tasted some modicum of relief.  That's been my experience: I don't recommend it!  It happened because I was so desperate for relief that when any hint of it came I would cling to it for dear life.

You're a bright guy with a good head on your shoulders, though.  That much is abundantly clear.  It'll go a long way toward helping you understand the nature of your present struggle.


--------------------


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

Edited by Ped (12/04/14 02:48 PM)

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20928212 - 12/04/14 01:10 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
And we keep trying to get through your thick skull there IS no actual medical evidence that 'mental illness' is biologically caused. None!





I'm sorry, but this is patently and categorically false.


Quote:

Ped said:You're a bright guy with a good head on your shoulders, though.  That much is abundantly clear.  It'll go a long way toward helping you understand the nature of your present struggle.




I agree.  You have an open and conscientious attitude, and I think this will serve you in very good stead in your endeavor to tackle this unfortunate problem.  Good luck!

:thumbup:


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20928549 - 12/04/14 02:47 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
And we keep trying to get through your thick skull there IS no actual medical evidence that 'mental illness' is biologically caused. None!





I'm sorry, but this is patently and categorically false.







Are you a latecomer or have you like some others bothered to read the thread from the beginning and checked out sources linked?

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20928639 - 12/04/14 03:14 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> And we keep trying to get through your thick skull there IS no actual medical evidence that 'mental illness' is biologically caused. None!

The opposite is the reality

Since I can't think of any possible way of responding to the rest of your diatribe without precipitating another counter-productive, vitriolic cascade, I'll refrain from addressing its content.

I will reiterate, however, that your personal political views do not belong in a thread where people are discussing the practical realities of their mental health struggles.  If you believe in an alternative approach, and if you believe describing that approach will be helpful, it has a place here, but if you want to argue that the entire field of medical science is a fraud, conspiracy, or otherwise fundamentally flawed, or if you have an axe to grind with western civilization and its deepest existential assumptions about the nature of the universe, those are conversations which belong elsewhere, because this is a thread where individuals are discussing the practical ramifications of their immediate experience.

This is something that we should be able to point out to each other without it being taken personally, and without all this huffing and puffing.




hmmm I wonder who funds that site...?:strokebeard:
PsychCentral not only made my stomach turn but finally made me wretch

You--like many shrinks--do not listen
Quote:


if you want to argue that the entire field of medical science is a fraud, conspiracy, or otherwise fundamentally flawed




I have never said anywhere in this thread the entire field of medical science is a fraud. I said that  biomedical model to explain what the 'mental health movement' call 'mental illness' is pseudoscience. Is based on lies via the power of language used as a weapon to demoralize people and have them become life long chronic psychiatric patients on drugs. IF you think this does not have to do with politics then maybe you better get off the drugs your on because they have addled your critical thinking.

In allopathic medicine, if someone has cancer, or another physical disease there are tests for it. Does this mean I love allopathic medicine? No. because I see it as an outgrowth of a mechanical understanding of reality and the body where the body is looked at as a machine that has symptoms. But at least there are actual tests based on medical science. So obviously I am not saying what you claim, but that doesn't mean I am not also critical of allopathic medicine, and it too is corrupt and in the pockets of the marketing people. it too wants chronic patients wanting lifelong drugs. It goes along with political pressure to suppress folk medicine, and understanding of spiritual healing.
This is so in hospital soaps too which always poke fun at alternative ways of healing and big-up their macho big tech, big pharma based 'care'.

I just feel you say silly things in a very pretentious overblown way.

Quote:

if you have an axe to grind with western civilization and its deepest existential assumptions about the nature of the universe, those are conversations which belong elsewhere, because this is a thread where individuals are discussing the practical ramifications of their immediate experience.





I mean just what the fuck does that even mean? it makes no sense whatsoever, to me. NOTHING can be more deep than psychological distress which can include the whole caboodle of worry and despair about society, civilization, what is happening to the natural world and so on in very deep levels. ESPECIALLY considering we are discussing all this in a psychedelic forum where many people explore this on psychedelics. That is both immediate experience and soooo all-pervasive experience. By that I do mean to suggest that those not experienced with psychedelics cannot experience deep. In fact when you do traverse these states you see the connection with or without psychedelics

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20928650 - 12/04/14 03:17 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I just feel you say silly things in a very pretentious overblown way.




:ripebanana:

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: akira_akuma]
    #20928797 - 12/04/14 04:04 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

One thing I'm pleased about is that the OP, as well as most of this thread's participants, seem to be able to distinguish between information and ignorance.


--------------------


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20928948 - 12/04/14 04:38 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

well, when it's all so glaring and obvious. :lol:
i mean, whatever OP can take from this, it's all good; really, one needs to see things from all the angles to be able to make an informed decision. luckily he can sort through the bad and good, and there isn't only adherence, on the other posters' part here, to silliness.

now THAT would certainly be a recipe for disaster.


Shroomery, you so smart sometimes... now why can't that be the general rule. :tongue:

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20928974 - 12/04/14 04:43 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
One thing I'm pleased about is that the OP, as well as most of this thread's participants, seem to be able to distinguish between information and ignorance.




I can. My mother has had severe depression since I was young. Doesn't seem mythical. :wow:


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Sun King]
    #20929019 - 12/04/14 04:53 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not surprised with you one-liner joe

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Sun King]
    #20929022 - 12/04/14 04:53 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> My mother has had severe depression since I was young. Doesn't seem mythical.

Same with my father.  Growing up, I can remember what it was like after he started taking an antidepressant.  Our entire family life changed for the better.  In fact, I think sertraline is the reason why my family stayed together at all: between my deterioration as a child, and his deterioration as an adult, it's a wonder we made it through.  Sertraline is one hell of a blunt instrument, though, barely even deserving of the "selective" nomenclature.  He's on imipramine now, and it's given his life back to him, and him back to us.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20929049 - 12/04/14 04:59 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

yeah Jehova was one bad mtha, not having these pills grow on trees. Tut tut. Ohhh well the 'Man' done good huh? sarcasm (just in case you don't get this too)

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InvisibleSun King
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20929091 - 12/04/14 05:06 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I think it was triggered by postpartum depression when my brother was born. I was eight years old. She has been on SSRIs, MAOIs, lithium and had ECT. She had another episode when she was about 70, when her mother died.


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OfflinePed
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Sun King]
    #20929102 - 12/04/14 05:10 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> I think it was triggered by postpartum depression when my brother was born. I was eight years old. She has been on SSRIs, MAOIs, lithium and had ECT. She had another episode when she was about 70, when her mother died.

Yeah, the healthy brain recovers from traumatic events and restores its equilibrium on its own.  Grief counselling and self-care are all the healthy brain requires.  Where there is depression, however, this recovery is not forthcoming, and the unfortunate reality is that medications are often required to facilitate it.  If she made it to 70, she's done a lot better than many who struggle with clinical depression.


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Ped]
    #20929175 - 12/04/14 05:27 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)


She's 78 now.


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Edited by Sun King (12/04/14 05:52 PM)

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: jimboob]
    #20929191 - 12/04/14 05:31 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Actually the mythical is very deep in us. People in the materialistic paradigm we're oppressed under may look at all of that as poppycock, but as is shown in the great book Trials of the Visionary Mind, by John Weir Perry
Quote:

"Stress may cause highly activated mythic images to erupt from the psyche's deepest levels in the form of turbulent visionary experience."




Surely those here who are psychedelically experienced can dig this...? That suddenly nature can seem mythical, as can things that happen in the trip, and inner experience. In fact much of mythology has been inspired from psychedelics, and their presence is cryptically being refereed to in all forms, both at a literary level, and also in symbolism---worldwide in mythologies!

A favourite mythical 'god' of mine is Dionysos who I am attracted to. he was called the god of many names and one was the god of MASKS



And of course also the god of DRAMA. Drama is supposed to start with this effeminate god. IE 'he' is ambiguous, male AND female...?

Don't we know drama when we take a trip. Isn't that the essence of drama

Just some questions

Edited by zzripz (12/04/14 05:34 PM)

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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20929374 - 12/04/14 06:09 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

So what's your solution?

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Hobozen]
    #20929692 - 12/04/14 07:12 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

it is very important to realize that the mind is not subject to reason.
it is also very important to realize that other people's minds are not subject to your reason.
still,
not every child wants to play nicely with the others,
and then there are habits one falls into.
mwahahaha...


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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Hobozen]
    #20931258 - 12/05/14 03:06 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blankk said:
So what's your solution?




Well in the mythology of Dionysos the god~man differentiated between two types of madness, divine madness, and the madness that can come from suppressing divine madness. As I said, s/he was also called the god of many names and a name was also the god of madness

Supressing divine madness is what this civilization is all about with its so-called 'war on drugs' which very much includes war on psychedelics and psychedelic experience.
Psychedelic experience can involve what we may call nonrationality which rationalists would call madness

More and more people, especially the youth, drink themselves into a stupour because they seek this kind of madness, but they are really using a VERY toxic drug to do it. One that is called a depressant. and take too much and you will rather get coma and death, and/or at least diseases which will be life threatening

We are forced into rigid masks. Social roles. People will ask, as is the custon, 'what do you DO?'. What you 'do' is supposed to define you as a person. The very term 'person' comes from 'persona' which means mask! You are foced to become a mask, rather than understand you wear many masks, and CAN do. Always changing always changing. That is natural

The madness the mythical character warned about is the kind of madness which suppresses these deeper parts of ourself, and then you are mad but are not aware of it. The Madness Pride Movement will use the terms 'madness' and 'insanity' to differente to radical different meanings of madness.
The culture which suppresses madness is insane, and the people who see through it, and this 'seeing through' can manifest in ways the person seeing through may not even understand, and which is called 'mental illness', but those who are aware what is going on embrace their madness. They embrace what the insane culture calls madness. This doesn't mean they love distress etc, but they are rather seeing what is going on. The bigger picture.

Martin Luther King encapsulates what we mean in this quote:
Quote:


There are some things in our nation and in our world to which I’m proud to be maladjusted… I never intend to adjust myself to segregation and discrimination. I never intend to become adjusted to religious bigotry. I never intend to adjust myself to economic conditions that will take necessities from the many to give luxuries to the few, and leave millions of people perishing on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of prosperity.  I never intend to adjust myself to the madness of militarism, and to the self-defeating effects of physical violence…

And I call upon you to be maladjusted to these things until the good society is realized…

Yes, I must confess that I believe firmly that our world is in dire need of a new organization – the International Association for the Advancement of Creative Maladjustment…Through such maladjustment we will be able to emerge from the bleak and desolate midnight of man’s inhumanity to man, into the bright and glittering daybreak of freedom and justice.

—Martin Luther King, Jr.



Edited by zzripz (12/05/14 03:13 AM)

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InvisibleSun King
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz] * 2
    #20932077 - 12/05/14 09:51 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

:hahthatsrich:


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: Sun King]
    #20933443 - 12/05/14 02:57 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

i just fell asleep and had a fucking retarded dream where i was a ghost. fuck.

i was wondering around, everything was really slow and fuzzy; i felt like  i was floating and incorporeal and was gonna go to the hospital to get help, but i couldn't open the front door of my house, so i couldn't get out. i went to get the phone... i was looking for my mother's phone number and i couldn't find it, so i called 911. the phone didn't respond to my dialing it. so i went to my computer, and as i looked upon my screen, lo and behold i was looking, apparently, at suicide.

so i went to my bathroom, and looked in the mirror. i was scared.

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: akira_akuma]
    #20933450 - 12/05/14 02:59 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

wow, that is a very powerful dream. what do you think it means?

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20933542 - 12/05/14 03:20 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

well, the message was pretty clear. i even had a false awakening. i got up, and i was like "wtf i must have sleepwalked" because i realized my front door was actually wide open, in the daytime, (even though before i couldn't even open it, and it was grey outside not bright like it was now) and so i thought "shit how long has it been open?" and closed it... then it all started again... i was a ghost again. so... :grin: "oh shit it's still a dream" *woke up*

i left that part out. the dream has a clear message. *shudder*

direct message from my brain.

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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: akira_akuma]
    #20933567 - 12/05/14 03:30 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

have you been suicidal?

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20933603 - 12/05/14 03:38 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

oh sure. but it's ok. this morning, i had a dream where my evil twin had trapped me in this dingy factory place... and he tried to throw a sheet with a snake in it at me... it didn't startle me even, and his evilness was not effective... so i ran up the stairs to him... and ... lol... i kicked a soccer ball that was laying there straight at him, and it hit him and made him fly into the wall like 10 feet away, and then fall down a chute where he raised his hands up and fell yelling "noooooooo" as he smacked everything on the way down and landed with a resounding splat.

my brain literally tickled, and was laughing as this occurred. so... i can't be that bad up there.

i still feel like sleep resounds in me right now. i've had a coffee and everything and i still feel tired. :nonono:

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20933671 - 12/05/14 03:54 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

there's a saying i love

nature speaks to us in visions

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: My depression makes me feel like I have to wear a mask all the time [Re: zzripz]
    #20933701 - 12/05/14 04:01 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

well, i've been spoken too, and i feel like dung. my body feels zapped.

i'm gonna take a stroll, get some fresh air.

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