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OfflineZahid
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Registered: 01/21/02
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Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected
    #2087552 - 11/09/03 11:04 PM (18 years, 28 days ago)

Case for war confected, say top US officials

Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles - 09 November 2003

An unprecedented array of US intelligence professionals, diplomats and former Pentagon officials have gone on record to lambast the Bush administration for its distortion of the case for war against Iraq. In their view, the very foundations of intelligence-gathering have been damaged in ways that could take years, even decades, to repair.

A new documentary film beginning to circulate in the United States features one powerful condemnation after another, from the sort of people who usually stay discreetly in the shadows - a former director of the CIA, two former assistant secretaries of defence, a former ambassador to Saudi Arabia and even the man who served as President Bush's Secretary of the Army until just a few months ago.

Between them, the two dozen interviewees reveal how the pre-war intelligence record on Iraq showed virtually the opposite of the picture the administration painted to Congress, to US voters and to the world. They also reconstruct the way senior White House officials - notably Vice-President Dick Cheney - leaned on the CIA to find evidence that would fit a preordained set of conclusions.

"There was never a clear and present danger. There was never an imminent threat. Iraq - and we have very good intelligence on this - was never part of the picture of terrorism," says Mel Goodman, a veteran CIA analyst who now teaches at the National War College.

The case for accusing Saddam Hussein of concealing weapons of mass destruction was, in the words of the veteran CIA operative Robert Baer, largely achieved through "data mining" - going back over old information and trying to wrest new conclusions from it. The agenda, according to George Bush Senior's ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Chas Freeman, was both highly political and profoundly misguided.

"The theory that you can bludgeon political grievances out of existence doesn't have much of a track record," he says, "so essentially we have been neo-conned into applying a school of thought about foreign affairs that has failed everywhere it has been tried."

The hour-long film - entitled Uncovered: The Whole Truth About the Iraq War - was put together by Robert Greenwald, a veteran TV producer in the forefront of Hollywood's anti-war movement who never suspected, when he started out, that so many establishment figures would stand up and be counted.

"My attitude was, wow, CIA people, I thought these were the bad guys," Mr Greenwald said. "Not everyone agreed on everything. Not everyone was against the war itself. But there was a universally shared opinion that we had been misled about the reasons for the war."

Although many elements in the film are not necessarily new - the forged document on uranium sales from Niger to Iraq, the aluminium tubes falsely assumed to be parts for nuclear weapons, the satellite images of "mobile biolabs" that turned out to be hydrogen compression facilities, the "decontamination vehicles" that were in fact fire engines - what emerges is a striking sense of professional betrayal in the intelligence community.

As the former CIA analyst Ray McGovern argues with particular force, the traditional role of the CIA has been to act as a scrupulously accurate source of information and analysis for presidents pondering grave international decisions. That role, he said, had now been "prostituted" and the CIA may never be the same. "Where is Bush going to turn to now? Where is his reliable source of information now Iraq is spinning out of control? He's frittered that away," Mr McGovern said. "And the profound indignity is that he probably doesn't even realise it."

The starting point for the tarnishing of the CIA was a speech by Vice-President Cheney on 26 August 2002, in which he told the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Nashville that Saddam was reconstituting his nuclear weapons programme and was thus threatening to inflict "death on a massive scale - in his own region or beyond".

According to numerous sources, Mr Cheney followed up his speech with a series of highly unorthodox visits to CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, in which he badgered low-level analysts to come up with information to substantiate the extremely alarming - but entirely bogus - contents of his speech.

By early September, intelligence experts in Congress were clamouring for a so-called National Intelligence Estimate, a full rundown of everything known about Iraq's weapons programmes. Usually NIEs take months to produce, but George Tenet, the CIA director, came up with a 100-page document in just three weeks.

The man he picked to write it, the weapons expert Robert Walpole, had a track record of going back over old intelligence assessments and reworking them in accordance with the wishes of a specific political interest group. In 1998, he had come up with an estimate of the missile capabilities of various rogue states that managed to sound considerably more alarming than a previous CIA estimate issued three years earlier. On that occasion, he was acting at the behest of a congressional commission anxious to make the case for a missile defence system; the commission chairman was none other than Donald Rumsfeld, now Secretary of Defence and a key architect of the Iraq war.

Mr Walpole's NIE on Iraq threw together all the elements that have now been discredited - Niger, the alumin- ium tubes, and so on. It also gave the misleading impression that intelligence analysts were in broad agreement about the Iraqi threat, relegating most of the doubts and misgivings to footnotes and appendices.

By the time parts of the NIE were made public, even those few qualifications were excised. When President Bush's speechwriters got to work - starting with the address to Congress on 7 October that led to a resolution authorising the use of force against Iraq - the language became even stronger.

Mr Tenet fact-checked the 7 October speech, and seems to have played a major role in every subsequent policy address, including Colin Powell's powerful presentation to the United Nations Security Council on 5 February. Of that pivotal speech, Mr McGovern says in the film: "It was a masterful performance, but none of it was true."

Link


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: Zahid]
    #2088386 - 11/10/03 03:32 AM (18 years, 27 days ago)

I keep seeing good news!!!!!!!

Things are looking up Bush, is looking more and more like the scumbag peice of shit that he is.

What I am waiting for now is the report about sept.11

Why would they(bush,etc) have something to hide??????

I cant wait to find out.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: Zahid]
    #2089141 - 11/10/03 01:10 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Hmmm...another thread where those who support the war will remain silent?


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: Zahid]
    #2089208 - 11/10/03 01:47 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

This isn't news at all for many of us, just a confirmation of what we already suspected.

Great Article.  :thumbup:



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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: GazzBut]
    #2089388 - 11/10/03 02:47 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Hmmm...another thread where those who support the war will remain silent?

Can you blame them? If I'd been spoonfed that much shit and swallowed it without question I'd be quiet too. It's incredible how easily right-wingers can be manipulated.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: Xlea321]
    #2089414 - 11/10/03 03:00 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

it's incredible how easily the simple minded can be manipulated.

there's plenty of those on both ends of the political spectrum.

interestingly...the commission responsible for the september
11th investigation just two days ago was forced to subpoena
the pentagon for documents that they refuse to give up.

and the former secretary of the army that they allude to
in this article was replaced with one of the Bush's buddies
from his texas oil days and a dear friend of the Carlysle
(Group) Syndicate.

yet another case of biased, imbalanced, cronyism that
wreaks of conflicts of interest.

this administration has got to go...


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: afoaf]
    #2089441 - 11/10/03 03:07 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

there's plenty of those on both ends of the political spectrum.

Perhaps, but I think this board has clearly demonstrated that the right-wingers were far easier to manipulate than any of the left. I don't think there was one person on the left who swallowed Bush's bullshit whereas those on the right were strident in their conviction that Saddam had "thousands of tons" of VX gas etc.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: Xlea321]
    #2089485 - 11/10/03 03:24 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

yeah, but there's also a lot of left wingers
in this forum that will buy any conspiracy
theory that insinuates bush in any shape
form or fashion.

that's equally gullible and blind.

it's a two way street.

no need to pretend it's not just so you can
bask in your own self-righteous afterglow.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: Xlea321]
    #2089797 - 11/10/03 05:14 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)


Perhaps, but I think this board has clearly demonstrated that the
right-wingers were far easier to manipulate than any of the left.


There are idiots on both sides of the spectrum who are quite
easy to manipulate.


I don't think there was one person on the left who swallowed Bush's
bullshit whereas those on the right were strident in their conviction
that Saddam had "thousands of tons" of VX gas etc.


And I don't think there is one person on the Right who swallows
Chomsky's garbage.

People filter what they see to correspond to their personal
ideological beliefs. That is why ideologies are so poisonous to
rational thought.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: Xlea321]
    #2089800 - 11/10/03 05:14 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

whereas those on the right were strident in their conviction that Saddam had "thousands of tons" of VX gas etc.



Really? Care to back that up?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Posts: 1,617
Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2089817 - 11/10/03 05:25 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Holy shit.

Yeah, I will. It was in the plagerized student thesis that Powell gave to the UN.

The "student" at :
http://cns.miis.edu/cns/index.htm
"The Center for Nonproliferation Studies (CNS) strives to combat the spread of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) by training the next generation of nonproliferation specialists and disseminating timely information and analysis. CNS at the Monterey Institute of International Studies is the largest nongovernmental organization in the United States devoted exclusively to research and training on nonproliferation issues. "

The think tank that he was a Research Associate at, not student, is a gem. The University he "attended" is the Monterey Institute for International Studies.
Look at this website: http://www.miis.edu/
Look at these "alumni" comments: http://cns.miis.edu/cns/alumni/share.htm
This place is scary and weird. I mean, look at this friggin alumni review.
http://cns.miis.edu/cns/alumni/nikitin.htm


They let the "student" write OP ED columns for the NY times for some reason. Here is one:

Just Following (Saddam Hussein's) Orders
By Ibrahim al-Marashi

An op-ed for the New York Times. March 25, 2003


Americans were understandably appalled by the televised images of dead and captured United States soldiers filmed by their Iraqi interrogators. But nobody should have been surprised. Documents taken in Iraq after the first Persian Gulf war showed the extent to which Saddam Hussein hoped to have his soldiers and even civilians exploit prisoners of war, particularly downed pilots.

The documents were found on battlefields and in government offices in southern Iraq and Kuwait during the war, and are now held by the Iraq Research and Documentation Project at Harvard. Many were issued by Saddam Hussein himself, and they provide a window into his thinking that is just as relevant today as it was in 1991.

For example, an Iraqi order issued on Jan. 27, 1991, 10 days after the air war began, said that "officers will be promoted if they capture an enemy and retrieve important information." Obviously, forced interrogation of uniformed prisoners is a breach of the Geneva Conventions. Still, it's clear that career advancement trumped the international rules of combat. Capt. Richard Dale Storr, an Air Force pilot shot down and captured six days after that order was issued, said he was questioned under illegal conditions. Suffering from a broken nose, a punctured eardrum and a dislocated shoulder, he was handcuffed and forced to lie on a cement floor. When his answers were deemed unsatisfactory, he was shocked with an electric prod.


(The rest can be found at...) http://cns.miis.edu/research/iraq/orders.htm

You can also find all the data on all the shit Saddam supposedly had that was data collected from the 1991 Gulf war and was claimed to be pertainent after 12 years of sanctions and inspections. It was in the report about why the fuck we were going to war.

All of you screamed about weapons of mass destructions that were never found.

Tick tock. Tick tock.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2089821 - 11/10/03 05:27 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Holy shit back at ya.

Alpo was speaking of those on this board. I asked him to back that up.

Colin Powell doesn't post here as far as I know.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2089854 - 11/10/03 05:41 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

He said right wingers. He didnt say anything about just the people on this board.

This has never been targetted at anyone. You took a bunch of general terms and demanded proof for personal bias.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2089865 - 11/10/03 05:47 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Miss this did you?

"Perhaps, but I think this board has clearly demonstrated that the right-wingers were far easier to manipulate than any of the left. I don't think there was one person on the left who swallowed Bush's bullshit whereas those on the right were strident in their conviction that Saddam had "thousands of tons" of VX gas etc."

Why is it so hard to admit your error?


Quote:

You took a bunch of general terms and demanded proof for personal bias.



Actually I ASKED for proof because Alpo has an unfortunate tendancy to make claims he can't, and often won't even try, to back up.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2089878 - 11/10/03 05:52 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

alex may not have been referring to the people that post here when he said:

"I don't think there was one person on the left who swallowed Bush's bullshit whereas those on the right were strident in their conviction that Saddam had "thousands of tons" of VX gas etc"

though a statement about the people who post here preceded it, he's not necessarily talking about the people who post here...

if he wasn't, it was confusing of him to place his statements the way he did, and it would certainly seem to me like he's talking about the people on this board... but not necessarily. be careful... do not assume that there is any rhyme or reason in his syntax.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: ]
    #2089882 - 11/10/03 05:54 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Look at his post history. It's clear enough.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2089884 - 11/10/03 05:56 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

perhaps if he were a better writer i'd find it a safer assumption. he may have just been poorly stringing two ideas together in a way likely to confuse and mislead the reader...


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: ]
    #2089894 - 11/10/03 05:59 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Anything is possible and I'm sure he'll make that claim.

I don't believe it. I'd be surprised if you actually do.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2089906 - 11/10/03 06:04 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Bah. I missed nothing.

You sound like Rumsfeld

BY ERIC ROSENBERG
HEARST NEWSPAPERS


WASHINGTON - In the lead-up to the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said U.S. forces would be welcomed by the Iraqi citizenry and that Saddam Hussein had large stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons.

Now, after both statements have been shown to be either incorrect or vastly exaggerated, Rumsfeld - with the same trademark confidence that he exuded before the war - is denying that he ever made such assertions.

In recent testy exchanges with reporters, Rumsfeld interrupted the questioners and attacked the premise of the questions if they dealt with his pre-war comments about weapons of mass destruction and Americans-as-liberators.

For example, on Feb. 20, a month before the invasion, Rumsfeld fielded a question about whether Americans would be greeted as liberators if they invaded Iraq.

"Do you expect the invasion, if it comes, to be welcomed by the majority of the civilian population of Iraq?" Jim Lehrer asked the defense secretary on PBS' "The News Hour."

"There is no question but that they would be welcomed," Rumsfeld replied, referring to American forces. "Go back to Afghanistan, the people were in the streets playing music, cheering, flying kites, and doing all the things that the Taliban and the al-Qaeda would not let them do."

The Americans-as-liberators theme was repeated by other senior administration officials in the weeks preceding the war, including Rumsfeld's No. 2 - Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz - and Vice President Cheney.

But on Sept. 25, - a particularly bloody day in which one U.S. soldier was killed in an ambush, eight Iraqi civilians died in a mortar strike and a member of the U.S-appointed governing council died after an assassination attempt five days earlier - Rumsfeld was asked about the surging resistance.

"Before the war in Iraq, you stated the case very eloquently and you said . . . they would welcome us with open arms," Sinclair Broadcasting anchor Morris Jones said to Rumsfeld as the prelude to a question.

The defense chief quickly cut him off.
"Never said that," he said. "Never did. You may remember it well, but you're thinking of somebody else. You can't find, anywhere, me saying anything like either of those two things you just said I said."

When testifying about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction before the House Armed Services Committee Sept. 18, 2002, Rumsfeld said Saddam "has amassed large clandestine stocks of biological weapons." including anthrax and botulism toxin and possibly smallpox. His regime has amassed large clandestine stockpiles of chemical weapons, including VX and sarin and mustard gas."

Saddam
Saddam "has at this moment stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons," he later added, repeating the charges the next day before the Senate Armed Services Committee.

He repeated that theme in the weeks preceding the war.

Last month, after U.S. weapons hunters reported to the administration and Congress that they have yet to find a single weapon of mass destruction in Iraq, Rumsfeld was asked about his earlier statements.

A reporter at a Pentagon news conference asked: "In retrospect, were you a little too far-leaning in your statement that Iraq categorically had caches of weapons, of chemical and biological weapons, given what's been found to date? You painted a picture of extensive stocks" of Iraqi mass-killing weapons.

"Wait," Rumsfeld interjected. "You go back and give me something that talks about extensive stocks. The U.N. reported extensive stocks. That is where that came from. I said what I believed to be the case, and I don't - I'd be surprised if you found the word 'extensive."'

With the weapons hunt in its eighth month, Rumsfeld also has backtracked on his earlier assertions that American troops knew where the forbidden weapons were hidden.

On March 30, 11 days into the war, Rumsfeld said in an ABC News interview when asked about WMDs: "We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

In comments Sept. 10 before the National Press Club, Rumsfeld conceded that he may have overreached. "I said, 'We know they're in that area," Rumsfeld said. "I should have said, 'I believe we're in that area. Our intelligence tells us they're in that area,' and that was our best judgment."

"We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

Donald Rumsfeld
On March 30, on alleged weapons of mass distruction in Iraq.

"I should have said, 'I believe they're in that area.' "


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I like how it's from a Hearst Newspaper.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2089909 - 11/10/03 06:06 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Nothing except the ability to admit error.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2090155 - 11/10/03 07:35 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

So, I see.


He is going to learn from his mistakes?


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2090235 - 11/10/03 07:58 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

He is going to learn from his mistakes?



Everybody who is willing, can.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2090297 - 11/10/03 08:20 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

What if they dont? What if this isnt the first time they've made very similar mistakes?

Rumsfeld confirms the Iran Contra Meeting

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EH12Ak03.html

WASHINGTON - A specter of the Iran-Contra affair is haunting Washington. Even some of the people and countries are the same. And the methods - particularly the pursuit by a network of well-placed individuals of a covert, parallel foreign policy that is at odds with official policy - are definitely the same.

Boiled down to its essentials, the Iran-Contra affair was about a small group of officials based in the National Security Council (NSC) and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) that ran an "off-the-books" operation to secretly sell arms to Iran in exchange for hostages held in Lebanon.

They used the proceeds over the following years to sustain the Nicaraguan Contras - US-sponsored rebels fighting Managua's left-wing government - in defiance of both a congressional ban and of official US policy as enunciated by the State Department and then president Ronald Reagan. It was never clear whether Reagan understood, let alone approved, the operation.

The picture emerging from the latest reports about the manipulation of intelligence in the drive to war with Iraq, as well as efforts by administration hawks to deliberately aggravate tensions with Syria, Iran, and North Korea in defiance of official State Department and US policy, suggest a similar but much more ambitious scheme at work.

As with Reagan, in this case, too, it is difficult to determine whether President George W Bush - or even his NSC director, Condoleezza Rice - fully understand, let alone approve, of what the hawks are doing.

There was some hint of a parallel policy apparatus dating back just after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. It was known early on, for example, that the Pentagon leadership, without notice to the State Department, the NSC, or the CIA, convened its advisory Defense Policy Board (DPB), headed by Richard Perle, to discuss attacking Iraq within days of the attacks.

(more at link above)

----------------------------------------
What happens then?


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2090323 - 11/10/03 08:26 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

I'll repeat....

Everybody who is willing, can.

And that goes for those from either side.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2090343 - 11/10/03 08:37 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

I dont disagree with that. But how long are you going to be willing to let these people push our nation down on it's ass?

When does it become the time to end the cycle?

I was thinking about you and I wondered the other day if I didnt have you all wrong. Maybe you are actually just an optimist with a strong sense of personal responsibility.. Maybe you think that if the people arent taken care of, they will take care of themselves, that there is something within the human soul capable of existing on commonsense.

But what about the people out there in this current administration that have been making mistakes, one after another, from President to President, year after year.

Think about how long this agenda has been pushed?

When is it enough to wake up and stop giving them the benefit of the doubt?


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2090431 - 11/10/03 09:16 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

But how long are you going to be willing to let these people push our nation down on it's ass?



Well now we disagree.

In very general terms.... You think the right has it wrong. I think the left has it wrong. I truly believe the things you mention. I read constantly, articles from both sides. I listen to the news from both side. I'm actually a NPR fan, although I feel I have to take some of what they say with a HUGE grain of salt. I'm a news and politics junkie. I read, and form my own conclusions. I read with an open mind for that's how I was raised. I merely come to different conclusions than you. I truly believe that many of the things you believe are wrong.

I believe in this country. I believe in the constitution and bill of rights. I believe all are created equal.

But I also believe that after you are created, you need to make it on your own. I believe you don't blame others for your choices. Some will do fine, others need a good kick in the ass. No-one deserves to have anything handed to them, and some are lucky enough to have it made from birth. Neither is my fault or responsibility. I help those near and dear to me on a regular basis. Frankly I, while not wishing ill on those who have problems, don't care either way. It's not my problem. It's not my fault. Some will help willingly, some will not. I still don't care. Either make it on your own, or fail on your own. Don't come crying to me.

Back on topic....
I don't think the current administration is all that great. I don't think they are pushing our nation down. I vote for the person I believe will do the better job. I did so and will again vote for Bush. He's not the best but I think sadly, he'll again be the best of bad choices. *pause for Alpo to chime in* (feel better Al?) Now the last guy in that office is the one I don't trust. I'm stunned more don't see him for the weasel he is.

Mistakes? Everyone makes them. It'd be nice if it wasn't so, but it is. Many in govv shouldn't be. Try to fire them though what with civil service laws being what they are. I'd fire the guys from the Pentagon who were just nailed for flying first class and the ones who work for them and have used credit cards to steal from us. No favorites.

Agenda? I think the only agenda is (for the most part) to look out for number one. That's one of the reasons why I vote for a president. I don't see the agenda as all wrong. I wish we'd mind our business more, but I want my President thinking of us first. All Presidents have an agenda. I think the last guy was only out for himself and his one-eyed pants snake.

Quote:

When is it enough to wake up and stop giving them the benefit of the doubt?



That one deserves to be quoted. I am awake. Wide awake. I'll stop giving them the benefit of the doubt when there is proof that will stand up in a court of law. That's what I'd want for myself, that's what I'll give to others.

I don't believe it was only for the oil. I don't believe 9-11 was allowed to happen. If the day comes when it can be proven, I'll re-evaluate my position, but not on speculation.



Thank you one and all for that opportunity to rant!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2090584 - 11/10/03 10:14 PM (18 years, 27 days ago)

Okay, but when it happens.  You know Im gonna say, "I told you so." 

Right? :wink: 


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2091029 - 11/11/03 01:46 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Really? Care to back that up?

We've been through this before. Do a search for VX gas, mustard gas, WMD, anthrax. You'll find dozens of posts about the vast stockpiles Saddam had, the weapons programmes  he was running.

That's if the right-wingers havn't already deleted all their hysterical posts about WMD - I noticed several of them were going back and doing this when they realised they'd been talking through their ass  :lol: 


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: ]
    #2091044 - 11/11/03 01:56 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

perhaps if he were a better writer i'd find it a safer assumption

My, it really did upset you when I didn't buy your right-wing bullshit didn't it mush. Running to the ratings to write something nasty and making snidey posts. Calm down son, it's just a shroom board  :smile:


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2091424 - 11/11/03 05:25 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

I'm betting you won't be able to, but should it happen feel free.

I know I would.  :grin:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: Xlea321]
    #2091433 - 11/11/03 05:31 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

We've been through this before.



Sorry Alpo, it's not going to be that easy. You said....
" Perhaps, but I think this board has clearly demonstrated that the right-wingers were far easier to manipulate than any of the left. I don't think there was one person on the left who swallowed Bush's bullshit whereas those on the right were strident in their conviction that Saddam had "thousands of tons" of VX gas etc. "
Now back up your claim and show me where on this board someone said there were thousands of tons of VX.


And now lets see you back up your second claim that people are going back and deleting posts.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2091837 - 11/11/03 11:29 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

You don't actually expect him to provide any supporting evidence, do you?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2091938 - 11/11/03 12:19 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)



--------------------
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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2092550 - 11/11/03 03:06 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

And if Bush and his over zealous buddies initiate a nuclear holocaust...
I suppose you'll be satisfied with an explaination of "Ooops" from Bush!


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: Shdwstr]
    #2092585 - 11/11/03 03:13 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Of course - because luvdem would consider nuclear holocaust "the best of a bad choice"  :smirk:


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: Xlea321]
    #2092614 - 11/11/03 03:18 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

It would certainly take care of all those illegal immigrant welfare bums and high paid job stealers.  :smile:



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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: Xlea321]
    #2093068 - 11/11/03 05:26 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Of course - because luvdem would consider nuclear holocaust "the best of a bad choice"  :smirk: 



Couldn't you have just said your claims were baseless and that you yet again said some things you have no hope of backing up?

I guess not because you'd have to have a spine to do so.

Quote:

"the best of a bad choice"



Even from you that's a weak attempt at an insult. Keep it up though. You look lamer each time.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: afoaf]
    #2093101 - 11/11/03 05:34 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
maybe he was thinking wingnutx and anthrax...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rt=all&vc=1

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rt=all&vc=1



Wingnutx claimed no such thing. He posted a link to the claim and then asked if such a quantity was known to have existed, what happened to it. He didn't claim it existed. Get your facts straight.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2093222 - 11/11/03 06:00 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

I'll take that bet. :smile:


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2093286 - 11/11/03 06:13 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
I'll take that bet. :smile: 



What bet?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2093738 - 11/11/03 08:42 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

hey grumpy, I was just pointing to what I
thought he might be rambling about.

if you had read the goddamned thread you
would see that I was the first to dig into Alex
for making such an idiotic statement.

you should try being a little less defensive
sometimes.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: afoaf]
    #2093752 - 11/11/03 08:46 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

You must be a sensitive lil' guy if you found that grumpy.

I've read every word.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Top US Officials: Case for War Was Confected [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2093795 - 11/11/03 08:59 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

whatever


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