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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Why You Should Really Start With Agar 33
#20846749 - 11/16/14 05:11 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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The Basics
Agar - what, why and how? Everything a beginner needs to know---van der griegen
Monk: Master, you are a great teacher, but I have learned all from you that I can. I must leave the monastery and see what the world has to teach. Master: Then, I can teach you no more.
Years later, the monk returns.
Master: So, what has the world taught you? Monk: It's funny, Master. I never had to leave to learn what I know now. Master: Haha. I could have told you that Monk: Why didn't you? Master: Would you have believed me?
The one thing I truly believe has really made me a successful grower is learning agar. In retrospect, I wished I had the patience enough to have made an SAB, bought a PC, and just learned agar first. Learning agar is my recommendation for all beginning growers. I like to think of agar as the monastery in the parable above.
When I first got the gumption to grow mushrooms, I wanted to get as many mushrooms growing as I could for the least amount of time, money, and effort. I think most everyone can identify with this feeling. It was pure elation to fantasize about all the mushrooms I could grow.
I also think most people can identify with the feeling of disappointment after our early attempts/fails.
Like many people, I started with PF Tek with mixed results, mostly shit. Then, I got a pressure cooker and started trying bulk with not much, if any, better results. I can barely calculate the money and effort I've spent trying to get consistent good results. I'm truly embarrassed to say how many spore syringes I've bought and how many different fruiting chambers I've made and altered.
There seems to be two kinds of growers: one is truly interested in cultivation and the other just wants some drugs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not passing judgement; there's nothing wrong with wanting some drugs, I like drugs. But, in my opinion based on personal experience and lots and lots of post reading, starting with agar would have satisfied many of both types of growers much sooner.
The truth is, no, you don't have to start with agar. But, I recommend you do and here's some reasons why:
This is your first test in patience, the cornerstone of cultivation.
Agar helps teach you what healthy mycelium looks like.
Agar helps you to ensure clean culture and is a cheap and easy way to expand your precious, expensive, spores.
Even the most reputable vendors can't guarantee a 100% contam free MS syringe or print. Mushrooms are generally not grown or printed in a sterile environment. Although our sponsors, and some of our members, make a high quality clean product, it simply is not going to be 100% contam free unless everything was done in a sterile environment. Granted, many many people grow straight from spores on cakes or grains without using agar and have plenty of success. But, there are far more that don't have this good experience and end up spending a lot of money on spores in the beginning.
One single drop of spore solution can be germinated on agar. Once you are confident in a clean agar culture, you can go a couple different ways. One clean agar culture can easily be transferred to 1-10 jars. Each one of those jars can easily be transferred to 10 more jars. Now you have 100 jars. If you are a beginner, this will be more than you even know what to do with. But, each one of those can easily be transferred to 10 more jars.
You can also make transfers from the clean agar culture to more agar plates. I don't even know how many new plates you can make from one.
You can also transfer to new plates and your jars from the same plate. This allows you to get some stuff growing while at the same time further isolate genetics.
This does add a little more time to your growing cycle, sometimes 3-4 weeks or more, depending on your temperature, contam levels, and mistakes. But think about this: 3-4 weeks is typical of a PF grow or a bulk grow when starting with MS and not using agar. Often, you end up using the entire syringe for one grow. If this contaminates, then you have to get another syringe, all the other materials, and start over again and very possibly getting the same results. At this point, you have entered the same timeline as starting with agar, but it's costing you more money and effort. If it fails again, then you are taking longer than if you started with agar.
This all goes back to that first question we ask ourselves as beginners: What's the cheapest, fastest, easiest way to get mushrooms? If this is your question, then what I'm saying may not register with you and you may need to leave the monastery because you won't believe me. But, if your question is: What's the best way to increase the likelihood that I will get some mushrooms?, then what I'm saying is for you.
I understand that part of the appeal of PF Tek is cheapness and ease of use and agar is intimidating and some feel it's cost prohibitive, but I recommend it anyway. It is easy, teaches you a lot about your technique, and is cheaper than multiple fails. I usually end up recommending agar to people having contam issues. Ultimately, anyone who stays with this hobby long enough comes full circle back around to agar anyway. I'm just trying to shorten the journey for as many as I can.
Like I said, you don't have to start with agar, but I highly recommend it.
To practice and test your agar skills, try using plane agar plates and grains. Don't inoculate them or anything. Just make some agar and/or grain jars, do some pours and/or transfers of plain agar, and see if they contaminate. You can do agar to agar, agar to grain, or whatever. You can also practice your G2G this way. If you don't inoculate and you get growth in any of it, then you know it's a contam and you know it's your technique. Without any competing culture, contams should be much easier to see. I've practiced this myself because I got tired of spending money on spores and wasting a lot of time.
I've always poured my plates after sterilizing, but this seems like a solid no-pour way to get started and it seems to be getting a good reputation as a solid and reliable tek, especially for beginners: Pastywhyte's Easy Agar Tek Stro's Cleaning and Isolating On Agar
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
Edited by SpitballJedi (04/22/15 10:55 AM)
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siko887
Broke


Registered: 01/05/11
Posts: 772
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: SpitballJedi] 6
#20846777 - 11/16/14 05:17 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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The pf tek is a chance for the people who only want to trip, to give it a chance. More often then not they either find the reward too labour intensive, or get some mushrooms and take too many and leave the hobby behind.
The people that find themselves still intrigued after that tend to lean towards grains and agar.
-------------------- I don't suffer from insanity, I actually rather enjoy it.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: SpitballJedi] 2
#20846791 - 11/16/14 05:19 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Dude I was thinking about starting a thread exactly like this about 30 seconds ago.
I was just saying a minute ago to someone, I think since I started using agar, all of the problems I was having with grains jumped straight to the agar. Now, so far, I have a 0% contam rate on my jars, which I was having bacterial issues with before.
Yeah sure I get some contams on my agar sometimes, but not on my grains, and that's where it counts.
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jessepinkman
Stranger


Registered: 09/28/14
Posts: 308
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: siko887] 2
#20846802 - 11/16/14 05:21 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have been thinking of using agar for a while now. Thanks for pushing me into it. Purchasing some plates now...
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Munchauzen


Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 14,342
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: jessepinkman] 2
#20846814 - 11/16/14 05:23 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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I just started agar a little over a week ago! I am about to make my very first transfer of some enoki culture tonight! I am making up my pasty plates as we speak.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: Munchauzen] 1
#20846822 - 11/16/14 05:25 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Munchauzen said: I just started agar a little over a week ago! I am about to make my very first transfer of some enoki culture tonight! I am making up my pasty plates as we speak.
Dude I am DIGGING the pasty plates, I don't even see a reason to ever get glass petris now. 
Maybe if I was working with more cultures and had to do like 40 of them at once.
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Munchauzen


Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 14,342
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: Inocuole] 2
#20846847 - 11/16/14 05:30 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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IIRC, the tupperwares will only take 4-5 PCings before they warp up. Glass will last a lifetime.
Still... I'm not gonna order them for a while
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: Munchauzen] 1
#20846882 - 11/16/14 05:35 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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I pour agar in my SAB. That's another thing people seem afraid to do. But doing it can help teach you to use and trust your SAB.
But, I'm sure some people find buying PP5's more convenient and cheaper than ordering disposable petris.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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Fuzz-nutter


Registered: 04/06/13
Posts: 1,740
Loc: Canada
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: Munchauzen] 1
#20846898 - 11/16/14 05:37 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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this fucking guy. Was about to say "wish you were around when i started...." buuut the parable, that fucking parable hits the nail on the head.
Maybe its good to start agar later on, the true reward for years of failure and patience. People wouldn't get it if was easy. It's like moose hunting, years of not seeing a moose turns you into a lunatic, and that's moose hunting.
This is basically why I trust the TC tag, You are the mentors to the monk, and i'm learning to open my ears
My favorite new toy is my Flow hood, now i just need to learn how to not set it on fire. fml
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: Fuzz-nutter] 1
#20846917 - 11/16/14 05:41 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: I pour agar in my SAB. That's another thing people seem afraid to do. But doing it can help teach you to use and trust your SAB.
But, I'm sure some people find buying PP5's more convenient and cheaper than ordering disposable petris.
I am straight up scared to pour agar in a SAB, and my plates get contams all the time, so yeah I totally don't trust the SAB. Granted, I'm between SABs right now, I'm switching to the one you have, just haven't got the arm holes done yet. I'll give that one a new shot for sure, it has a lot more distance between the opening of the arm holes and the working area.
Quote:
Fuzz-nutter said: My favorite new toy is my Flow hood, now i just need to learn how to not set it on fire. fml
I was not even remotely aware that that was a possibility.
You just gonna drop a bomb like that in here and not go into detail?
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Fuzz-nutter


Registered: 04/06/13
Posts: 1,740
Loc: Canada
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: Inocuole] 1
#20846925 - 11/16/14 05:43 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said:
Quote:
Munchauzen said: I just started agar a little over a week ago! I am about to make my very first transfer of some enoki culture tonight! I am making up my pasty plates as we speak.
Dude I am DIGGING the pasty plates, I don't even see a reason to ever get glass petris now. 
Maybe if I was working with more cultures and had to do like 40 of them at once.
plastic disposable petris all the way
I love the idea of the pasty plates, and have tried it with a few different types of plastic, but i find the translucent colour tops and foggy plastic really hinders my ability to thoroughly check up on my agar. With disposable petris i can shuffle through a pile of 20 and pick out the one with one tiny little spot of bacteria and seperate it.
I do use the tupperware plates for longer term storage. I find it nice to be able to put extra agar, and have taller side walls to increase distance of my agar from the opening.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: Inocuole] 1
#20846928 - 11/16/14 05:44 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Let's try not to get too far off topic, at least this early...
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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Fuzz-nutter


Registered: 04/06/13
Posts: 1,740
Loc: Canada
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: Inocuole] 1
#20846947 - 11/16/14 05:46 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: I am straight up scared to pour agar in a SAB, and my plates get contams all the time, so yeah I totally don't trust the SAB. Granted, I'm between SABs right now, I'm switching to the one you have, just haven't got the arm holes done yet. I'll give that one a new shot for sure, it has a lot more distance between the opening of the arm holes and the working area.
I just found that i was getting mad contam from pouring too hot and causing too much steam. that drips down by the rim. I pour now when its just getting chunk.
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jessepinkman
Stranger


Registered: 09/28/14
Posts: 308
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: Fuzz-nutter] 1
#20847029 - 11/16/14 05:56 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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What's pasty plates? And what's PP5s?
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jessepinkman
Stranger


Registered: 09/28/14
Posts: 308
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: SpitballJedi] 1
#20847042 - 11/16/14 05:58 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: I pour agar in my SAB
How do you make sure your SAB is contam free? Just lysol spraying it? or alcohol wiping it? I'm always afraid of not getting the bad stuff out before I use mine.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: Fuzz-nutter] 2
#20847066 - 11/16/14 06:01 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fuzz-nutter said:
Quote:
Inocuole said: I am straight up scared to pour agar in a SAB, and my plates get contams all the time, so yeah I totally don't trust the SAB. Granted, I'm between SABs right now, I'm switching to the one you have, just haven't got the arm holes done yet. I'll give that one a new shot for sure, it has a lot more distance between the opening of the arm holes and the working area.
I just found that i was getting mad contam from pouring too hot and causing too much steam. that drips down by the rim. I pour now when its just getting chunk.
You also have to watch moving plates around with liquid in them because they slosh up and over the sides creating a vector for contamination.
To keep the bottle from dripping, I do a little twist at the end of each pour. It's a trick I learned from pouring wine.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: SpitballJedi] 2
#20847078 - 11/16/14 06:03 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: Let's try not to get too far off topic, at least this early...
I know how you are about that and have made a mental note not to previously, so I'd actually like to ask which post you're referring to? Only thing I can think of is asking that dude to explain why his flowhood possibly catching fire is a concern. Maybe the pasty plates thing but I thought that was pretty on topic.
I'm trying pretty hard to stay on the general topic of "agar is great and you should definitely use it", branching ideas aside.
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Fuzz-nutter


Registered: 04/06/13
Posts: 1,740
Loc: Canada
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: Inocuole] 2
#20847086 - 11/16/14 06:04 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: Let's try not to get too far off topic, at least this early...
True enough.
Great post. PF tek is a great place to start, it teaches people sterile procedures, how to use a SAB, using a pressure cooker, and pf cakes are hardy enough that a lot of people get fruits.
Going up from PF, even just going to grains, learning Agar should be a top priority. Pasty plates are a nice cheap simple way to get into it
Quote:
I was not even remotely aware that that was a possibility.
You just gonna drop a bomb like that in here and not go into detail?
Yea man, twice i tried ordering alcohol lamps from china and neither got sent. I got complacent thinking using a shotglass of alcohol was ok. but after she has been lit for 15 minutes, the metal got hot (yea a metal shot glass, fuck, i guess looking back glass would have been less dangerous)
when i went to pour more alcohol in my shotglass after it had burned out it was really hot and made the alcohol evaporate very quickly. put a lighter to my steaming shotglass of acohol and alcohol fumes and poof flames everywhere. luckily my beautiful smart amazing nagging wife had made me buy a fire extinguisher the week before for the lab, so i got away with a few burns in the bottom right of the filter. i have a 24x24 flowhood so the bottom right 6 square inches wont be a huge loss. i covered all the burn spots with silicone, i lost a few inches of space, but everything seems to be working fine,. the rest of the flowhood is bending the flame 45 degrees perfectly.
sorry again for going off topic, but i did feel the need to clear that up
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: jessepinkman] 1
#20847092 - 11/16/14 06:05 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
jessepinkman said:
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: I pour agar in my SAB
How do you make sure your SAB is contam free? Just lysol spraying it? or alcohol wiping it? I'm always afraid of not getting the bad stuff out before I use mine.
My SAB
I'm in the process of updating this post with more details
No worries innocule. I didn't want to get in to flowhoods. One question seems to always lead to another..."lol:
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: You Should Really Start With Agar [Re: SpitballJedi] 1
#20847370 - 11/16/14 06:48 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm about to pour some dishes in my SAB. agar is the way to go
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