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OfflineLaCasta
Beyond Good andEvil

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 1,332
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine * 1
    #2082253 - 11/07/03 08:23 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I am taking a class about the history of the Israeli and Palestinian conflict and I figured something out. Israel has never wanted to or intend to give back the West Bank or Gaza. This goes back to the Ben Gurion mentality of securing all of "Ancient Israel" and through military force, showing the Arabs their supremacy. If anybody disagrees I can pull out many sources from my book which can validify my claim that Israel never wanted to give back the West Bank or Gaza. For example when Israel gave back the Sinai to the Egyptians, they demanded to make an omission to Resolution 242 that stated "the inadmissability of the conquest of land through war." Even though the Camp David Accords called for them to make a resolution to the autonomy of the Palestinian people, Begin never engaged in autonomy talks and stated he only intended to give the Palestinians personal rights and not political rights. So the conflict today is just an extension of this mentality of holding onto all parts of "Ancient Israel." Israel knows that the Palestinians tactics are not a real threat to the existance of Israel, so they rather keep them in a stalemate untill the Palestinians are beat into "submission". If they are in a state of war then peace can not be made and that means they dont have to give back any land.

Ever wonder why Israel engages in a "targeted assassination" right before they are supposed to have a meeting to negotiate?


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"Memories of high speeds when the cops crash, As I laugh pushin the gas while my glocks blast" -RIP Tupac

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: LaCasta] * 1
    #2082376 - 11/07/03 09:23 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

yep


I am glad that you are an american youth thinking outside the sheep

godd for you 5 shrooms to you !

and while in the american school system no less!!!

www.jewsnotzionists.org


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: LaCasta]
    #2082480 - 11/07/03 09:53 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

If the Arabs had won the Arab-Israeli wars, do you think they would
have graciously given back the lands that they conquered? Fuck no.
The Israelis certainly are no saints, and neither are the Arabs.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2082576 - 11/07/03 10:24 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Good point.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: Evolving] * 1
    #2082669 - 11/07/03 11:09 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Well for me the main thing is this...

...ever since 1967 Israel has persued a path of EXTREMIST aggression
religon can be dangerous, and it seems the media only like to talk about islamic extremism.




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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2082749 - 11/07/03 11:34 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:
...ever since 1967 Israel has persued a path of EXTREMIST aggression



Is there any other kind? Humans are endowed with the ability to reason, when they resort to the initiation of force (aka, 'aggression') I find that extremist.

Quote:

religon can be dangerous,



I agree, but then there are other dogmas which have proven to be more dangerous than the worst of Islam, Judaism or Christianity. But these are 'secular' in nature and looked favorably upon by many as being 'progressive.' Even some of the milder barbarities perpetrated in the name of collectivism make Islamic extremists look like children pulling the wings off of flies.

Quote:

and it seems the media only like to talk about islamic extremism.



Well, the media in the U.S. often refer to many people they don't agree with as extremists. Many times, it is people who profess a strong faith in Christianity as well as staunch individual rights advocates who are tarred with the label of 'extremist.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleHanky
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2082791 - 11/07/03 11:45 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

When the isreali tanks and bulldozers enter the palistinian towns at 3am and drive thru every home,shop and work place they can find.regardless of the human beings inside these buildings,it's not terrorism.
When they use apache attack hellicopters against rock throwers and to carry out 'assasination raids' it's not terrorism.
When they use violence and intimidation to steal land and subjugate the palistinians it's not terrorism.

seems like terrorism is actually defined by who your allies are.


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Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]



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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: Hanky]
    #2082866 - 11/08/03 12:22 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"seems like terrorism is actually defined by who your allies are."

YES


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: LaCasta]
    #2083624 - 11/08/03 10:12 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

the second coming will not occur unless the
jews have reclaimed all of their land.

the end is nigh.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: afoaf]
    #2083636 - 11/08/03 10:21 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"the second coming will not occur unless the
jews have reclaimed all of their land."

Thats what I am talking about and then you say I make no sense!!

Zionists christian ones anyway belive that!!

how SICK(and exremist:))


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2083641 - 11/08/03 10:25 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Under UN Resolution 242, Israel is required by international law to withdraw from all the territories occupied in 1967, including East Jerusalem. The United Nation's General Assembly has repeatedly condemned Israel's occupation of the territories as illegal (see UN resolutions 338, 1397, and 1402, among others). Israel's continued occupation of Palestine, sanctioned and maintained by the US, is one of the most serious obstructions to a just and lasting peace in the Middle East.



Each day, Israeli security forces in the West Bank and Gaza violate articles of the 4th Geneva Convention on Human Rights, an agreement that governs wartime rules of engagement and to which Israel is a signatory. Palestinian homes and agriculture fields are routinely demolished to make way for illegal Israeli settlements. Israeli soldiers regularly arrest and detain--often for years-- Palestinians without due process. According to Amnesty International, members of the Israeli security forces regularly use torture and prolonged incommunicado detention against Palestinians.


Israel is an Apartheid State
Israel has developed an elaborate system of racial discrimination, embedded in its legal system, rivaling Apartheid South Africa's laws. These laws include the Law of Entry, the Law of Return, the Citizenship Law, the Military Service Law, and a host of legally sanctioned, discriminatory rabbinical rulings. Palestinians are denied various welfare benefits, access to many jobs, and the leasing of homes and land controlled by government bodies. Electricity, sewerage, and roads are provided free to Israeli households, whereas many Palestinian communities in Israel, and especially in the Occupied Territories, have existed for decades without adequate services. Laws governing land ownership such as the Law of Acquisition of Absentee Property and the Law for Acquisition of Land blatantly discriminate against Palestinians. Indeed, land ownership in Palestine is more unjust than it ever wasin South Africa; at the height of apartheid, black people nominally `controlled' 13 percent of the land, whereas in Israel the Palestinians control only 2 percent of the land.


Blockades which allow settlers free movement but restrict Palestinians have lost 100,000 workers their jobs. The Israeli government issues identification cards and car number-plates, color coded, which restrict travel for non-Jews. Palestinians in the West Bank are routinely prevented from travelling to the Gaza Strip because they have to travel through `Israeli' territory. No significant industry has been permitted to develop in the West Bank or Gaza. Consequently, Palestinians are concentrated in the lowest paying jobs and form a super-exploited labour force for Israeli capital. The occupied territories import 93% of goods but export a mere 7% of what they produce. Palestinian exports to Western Europe are banned so as not to compete with Israeli exports. Ninety percent of Palestinian workers must travel to Jewish towns for employment.

stick to the issues!!
please keep the HATE in OTD where it belongs afoaf!


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Edited by Psilocybeingzz (11/08/03 10:27 AM)

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OfflineLaCasta
Beyond Good andEvil

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 1,332
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2084446 - 11/08/03 03:42 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
If the Arabs had won the Arab-Israeli wars, do you think they would
have graciously given back the lands that they conquered? Fuck no.
The Israelis certainly are no saints, and neither are the Arabs.




That is a good point, but not entirely accurate. It was the Arabs land to begin with, so if they were fighting to defend it why would they then give it up? If the Arabs had won the war would they have graciously given back the land to Israel? No. Would they have allowed them to live in peace without humiliating them, violating their civil rights, and discriminating agaisnt them? Probbably, non-muslims were treated very good from the time when Saladin ruled Palestine all the way untill the Ottoman Empire.


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"Memories of high speeds when the cops crash, As I laugh pushin the gas while my glocks blast" -RIP Tupac

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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2084554 - 11/08/03 04:30 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

you move fluidly in and out of coherence...


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: afoaf]
    #2085288 - 11/08/03 08:59 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

ONCE again!!!
afoaf!
stick to the issues!

Do you have anything to say??????, I think you would rather make fun and make no counterpoint,then have to........"debate" the issues.

Scary thought that you might actually use this forum for what it is intended for, so keep the hate in OTD , where it belongs.

Just cause I dont agree with you I wont discuss fucking your mother , etc, I would rather catch you with nothing to say, which it seems I have a couple times in the last little while.

Psilocybeingz


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2085469 - 11/08/03 09:55 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Here's the link to the cut and paste which comprises Psilocybeingzz's post:

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/5_reasons_to_stop_us_military_aid.htm





pinky


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: Phred]
    #2085959 - 11/09/03 04:01 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

So what look at my links at the bottom genius!!!!!!!!!

thats were I got it !

I am not claiming that I wrote it I just posted it.

also since we are on the subject
here are the other groups that support thats statement!!!!!!!

Gush Shalom ? International Solidarity Movement ? Jews Against the Occupation ? Matzpun
Academics for Justice ? Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign ? A Jewish Voice for Peace
Palestine Children's Welfare Fund ? Palestine Right to Return Coalition ? All About Palestine
Colorado Campaign for Middle East Peace ? Vermonters for a Just Peace in Palestine/Israel
Not in My Name ? Americans United for Palestinian Human Rights ? Golshan Society
Boycott Israeli Goods ? Jewish Friends of Palestine ? Citizens for Fair Legislation


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #26464546 - 02/02/20 01:43 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

bump.

Edited by MadMuncher (02/19/20 10:05 PM)

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Offlinemeltdowner
Total Noob
Male


Registered: 09/06/17
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: LaCasta] * 2
    #26466132 - 02/02/20 11:49 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LaCasta said:
I am taking a class about the history of the Israeli and Palestinian conflict and I figured something out. Israel has never wanted to or intend to give back the West Bank or Gaza. This goes back to the Ben Gurion mentality of securing all of "Ancient Israel" and through military force, showing the Arabs their supremacy. If anybody disagrees I can pull out many sources from my book which can validify my claim that Israel never wanted to give back the West Bank or Gaza. For example when Israel gave back the Sinai to the Egyptians, they demanded to make an omission to Resolution 242 that stated "the inadmissability of the conquest of land through war." Even though the Camp David Accords called for them to make a resolution to the autonomy of the Palestinian people, Begin never engaged in autonomy talks and stated he only intended to give the Palestinians personal rights and not political rights. So the conflict today is just an extension of this mentality of holding onto all parts of "Ancient Israel." Israel knows that the Palestinians tactics are not a real threat to the existance of Israel, so they rather keep them in a stalemate untill the Palestinians are beat into "submission". If they are in a state of war then peace can not be made and that means they dont have to give back any land.

Ever wonder why Israel engages in a "targeted assassination" right before they are supposed to have a meeting to negotiate? 




USA should stop allying with Israel.  Theyre nothing but instigators and pull us into their wars for their benefit.


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I'm a Lightweight.  I like to eat like two caps at a time.

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: meltdowner] * 1
    #26471855 - 02/06/20 11:29 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

I doubt American policy (like seemingly the majority of countries, or powerful counties) has anything to do with human rights, anywhere.
In Central & South America & the Caribbean, under Kennedy & Regan it was about suppressing communism.
In the middle east it is about both oil and strategic military partners or power.
And Syria works as a place for Russia & The USA  to have a proxy war, which serves the purpose, of selling weapons and testing them. And this is a multi billion dollar business.

Conspiracy theories are not necessary to see that much in the world has a very dark side. Idealism or concern with what should be, seem to blind many of us to some very stark realities, that are not that hidden.

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Offlinemeltdowner
Total Noob
Male


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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: laughingdog]
    #26482776 - 02/12/20 09:01 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
I doubt American policy (like seemingly the majority of countries, or powerful counties) has anything to do with human rights, anywhere.
In Central & South America & the Caribbean, under Kennedy & Regan it was about suppressing communism.
In the middle east it is about both oil and strategic military partners or power.
And Syria works as a place for Russia & The USA  to have a proxy war, which serves the purpose, of selling weapons and testing them. And this is a multi billion dollar business.

Conspiracy theories are not necessary to see that much in the world has a very dark side. Idealism or concern with what should be, seem to blind many of us to some very stark realities, that are not that hidden.




Agreed.  Its human nature to go to war as well.  What do you do if 30% of your country wants to start killing people?
Do you..
A) let them kill outher countrymen
B) let them kill eachother
C) go to war and profit from a potential victory?


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I'm a Lightweight.  I like to eat like two caps at a time.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: meltdowner] * 2
    #26482792 - 02/12/20 09:10 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
What do you do if 30% of your country wants to start killing people?



:hmm:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinemeltdowner
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Male


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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26482797 - 02/12/20 09:13 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Well Mr Falcon?!


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I'm a Lightweight.  I like to eat like two caps at a time.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine [Re: meltdowner] * 2
    #26482901 - 02/12/20 10:39 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Can you show the % of people that just "wants to start killing people"?

I'll agree 30% may be pro-war, but there's no way 30% want to "kill other countrymen" or "kill each other".


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26494142 - 02/19/20 09:52 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

it looks like it might be a little higher than he thought. this poll says it's about 36%
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians
January, 2020

Quote:

Question:

If Israel indeed annexes Area C, what should be done with the Palestinians who live there? (Israel Democracy Institute, August 25-August 29, 2019)




Israeli Jews

Israeli Arabs


Transfer them to concentration camps


Jews: 36%

Arabs: 5%


Allow those Palestinians who want to remain in the area to be annexed to do so, but without granting them rights (for ex ample, the right to buy land)

Jews: 11%

Arabs: 8%


Allow those Palestinians who want to remain in the area to be annexed to do so, while granting them residency rights but not full citizenship rights (for example, without the right to vote in Knesset elections)


Jews: 19%

Arabs: 12%


Grant the Palestinians who want to remain full citizenship rights, like those of the Jews who live there

Jews: 16%

Arabs: 46%


Don't know

Jews: 19%

Arabs: 29%





Edited by MadMuncher (02/19/20 10:01 PM)

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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26495925 - 02/20/20 07:30 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

well i could mumble to myself about this in my own thread but dicksauce closed it.
asshole.
id go make another but you'd probably close it because you're an asshole.

some of these mods are fucked


Ran-D should be moderator :smoker:

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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26495947 - 02/20/20 07:37 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

what gets me is how people that are anti everything and will endlessly bash muslims, christians, hindus, mystics, etc will bend over backward to argue for a people whos only claim to that land is that they are God's chosen people and God gave it to them. the zionist jews are genocidal they believe they are a supreme race. everyone else is scum

Edited by MadMuncher (03/07/20 11:10 AM)

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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26572167 - 04/01/20 09:47 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

hell yes this is truly relevant

free palestine


As part of the COVID-19 response, the Israeli regime has imposed even more measures restricting Palestinian movement. The city of Bethlehem has been put under lockdown, while crossings into Gaza and the West Bank have been shut down. Palestinian labourers working in Israel have also been told to either stay for an unknown period of time in shoddy and unsanitary accommodation or give up work and stay in the West Bank.

The Palestinian Authority has imposed a curfew and set up checkpoints between villages and towns to limit the movement of people. Businesses have been shut down, except for supermarkets and pharmacies.

Meanwhile, Israel is continuing its practices of removing Palestinians from their land, even exploiting the lockdown amid the pandemic to do so. In Jerusalem, where there is a concerted effort to Judaise neighbourhoods and reduce the number of Palestinian inhabitants, the demolitions of Palestinian homes continue, despite the outbreak. The Israeli regime claims these buildings are illegal in order to justify demolishing them, yet Palestinians are consistently denied building permits.

Demolitions are also used as a method of collective punishment of the families of Palestinian political prisoners particularly in the West Bank. In the midst of this pandemic, this continuing cruel practice renders calls by Israeli authorities to "stay at home" absurd.

Similarly the construction of illegal settlements across the West Bank has not halted and there are fears that de jure annexation of many areas will be expediated under these circumstances, particularly as Benjamin Netanyahu is once again set to lead the next government.

Already, last week there were three cases in which illegal Israeli settlements razed Palestinian land and there has been an overall rise in attacks against Palestinian properties.

Earlier this month, Palestinians from Beita village near Nablus held a sit-in to try and protect land from being stolen by settlers. The Israeli security forces came out in full force to give cover to the settlers and in the process shot 15-year-old Mohammed Hammayel in the head killing him instantly.

Many in historic Palestine are worried that Israel will use the COVID-19 outbreak as an excuse to leave in place new restrictive measures even after the pandemic is over and will also prevent Palestinians from resisting its land grabs. At a time when the world is focused solely on the pandemic and the Israeli regime has the full support of the US administration to do as it pleases, Israeli aggressive expansionism seems inevitable.

Yet over the decades, Palestinians have shown incredible strength, courage and sumud (steadfastness) in the face of great adversity. While Israeli settler colonial expansionism does not rest, neither does Palestinian perseverance. As the Palestinian poet Tawfiq Ziyad wrote:

In Lidda, in Ramla, in the Galilee,
we shall remain
like a wall upon your chest,
and in your throat
like a shard of glass,
a cactus thorn,
and in your eyes
a sandstorm.

The views expressed in this article are the author's own and do not necessarily reflect Al Jazeera's editorial stance.

by Yara Hawari

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/celebrating-land-day-lockdown-palestine-200329162501923.html



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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26572169 - 04/01/20 09:50 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
what gets me is how people that are anti everything and will endlessly bash muslims, christians, hindus, mystics, etc will bend over backward to argue for a people whos only claim to that land is that they are God's chosen people and God gave it to them. the zionist jews are genocidal they believe they are a supreme race. everyone else is scum




christians do it all the time too it's gross. fuck israel

https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/long-reads/coronavirus-israel-palestine-police-raid-middle-east-cases-pandemic-a9430216.html

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/coronavirus-palestine-israel-settlers-exploit-lockdown-annex-land

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26572212 - 04/01/20 10:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

There is no good solution for the current state of the middle east.

No peaceful solution is possible because there is an 80 year memory of direct ongoing conflict, which means that almost nobody alive can remember anything but war against the other. There is no possible two state solution, because they hate each other. not because of reasons, but because of tradition. They hate each other because their fathers hated each other. They fight the enemy because that's just what they do. You wake up, you make coffee, you shoot a jew/arab, you sit down with some toast, go to work, dodge a retaliatory RPG, put in your 8 hours, go home, fuck your wife, and count how many limbs your family has left before passing out to the sound of gunfire, waiting to do the same thing tomorrow. That's just life.

Now add religious fanaticism from both sides to the mix, it's like that Pennsylvania coal mine fire that's been burning for 40 years and will burn for another few decades at least. You can't fix it, you just get the fuck out of the way. Which is what the surrounding town of around a thousand people did. They just left.

Now we have the choice of bad solutions: I see two.

First, we could support one side against the other, hoping it absolutely massacres the others, cleansing them off the face of the earth in a biblical holocaust and establishing the our guys as the One True Religion that can keep their shitty little piece of desert as long as they keep the oil flowing.

Second, we could have a biblical event that results in mass death, but not complete annihilation, and have it be relatively evenly distributed from a neutral third party. Covid-19 fits this description pretty well, except for disease has a tendency to bring out the racism in people (and fear of disease is the current theory for the psychological existence of racism), which will have the opposite effect. Which leaves more...complicated means, like, say, NK firing off a nuke wildly off course and blowing the shit out of the area. That provides a common enemy that they can fight together while killing off enough to disrupt generational animosity. Covid could, potentially, fill this role if the area gets hit last, and the rest of the world absolutely *suffers* first. The capitulation of the US, as the untouchable "fuck you" army in the area, could provoke such fear. Could also lead to another six day war. Basically, they need a third party that is capable of disrupting generational memory and generate enough fear and hatred to overcome that which is already there.

Whole thing's fucked.

Edit: Holy shit, that fire caught 60 years ago. Makes ya feel old.

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: Kryptos]
    #26573477 - 04/02/20 02:57 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

"complacency killed the cat." -some guy named madmuncher

good post.

i think you are partly wrong, in that the palestinians have never really had a chance to be a sovereign nation or govern themselves in recent times. also, the jews have no valid claim to that land. i had a pretty good idea of how to solve this problem but balls shot me off the soapbox when I tried to tell you guys about it.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26464350/page/3

we are being governed by corrupt and secretive machines designed to serve israeli billionaires and their corporations. we should stop funding them. if we're going to act as isolated pacifists we can at least do it fairly.

boycott ben & jerrys, caterpillar, and anywhere staffed with G4S security services, then write to the businesses that are being avoided for offering those brands and tell them why

Edited by MadMuncher (04/02/20 03:23 PM)

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26573673 - 04/02/20 05:15 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
i think you are partly wrong, in that the palestinians have never really had a chance to be a sovereign nation or govern themselves in recent times. also, the jews have no valid claim to that land.




Neither of those things are important. Borders, states, those don't matter. The middle east is a perfect example of this. This is why I think nationalism is conceptually stupid: You can have American pride or whatever and always buy American, and the only result is that I will always have nicer shoes than you, because I buy Corinthian leather. Funny part is that we're probably going to be paying roughly the same price, because humans have figured out logistics pretty damn well. Matter of fact, one of the biggest differences between modern humans and neanderthals is that there is absolutely no archaeological evidence that neanderthals engaged in trade. Otherwise, neanderthals were objectively better suited for ancient survival.

Borders, flags, nations, that's all shiny distractions for the gullible.

This is why the middle east can become one state, two states, or thirty-seven states. It doesn't really matter. Jews and Arabs will still continue killing each other.

Thing is, the religion doesn't even matter either. Same as borders, that's just a shiny for the gullible. A little fig leaf of modesty to hide behind.

The reality is that they will continue killing each other because that's what a generational conflict looks like. Neither Jews nor Arabs can even conceptualize peace with each other. Because killing each other is just what they do. It's like the family business. Peace would be a rejection of their ancestors, and an acknowledgement that their elders were fucking stupid.

Nobody likes being wrong. It takes some serious balls to step forward and admit a mistake. For many people, they'd rather die than admit being wrong. So that's what they do. Strap on a bomb or pick up a Tavor, and die.

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: Kryptos]
    #26573708 - 04/02/20 05:32 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

you are using extremist minorities, secret government funded chaos and powerful ruling families with ancient power money control to generalize entire races, religions and societies. pretty sure the majority of jews and arabs have never killed anyone. that image of the middle east sounds like rupert murdochs wet dream though. also the quran is a great book, extremely interesting and highly recommended read. torah too

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26573762 - 04/02/20 06:05 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

the pacifist philosophy "whole things fucked, there is no solution" is just as dangerous as the extremist "just fucking nuke em" idea, because the extremist view can be debated, but the pacifist really doesn't say anything other than, "well, that's just the status quo. just keep on doing the same thing"

love your neighbors, attack hatred, oppression and tyranny. stand up for silenced human beings, not sit down because it's more convenient that's how holocausts happen

Edit:
boycott israel for palestinian freedom

Edited by MadMuncher (04/02/20 08:21 PM)

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: MadMuncher] * 1
    #26573818 - 04/02/20 06:40 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
you are using extremist minorities, secret government funded chaos and powerful ruling families with ancient power money control to generalize entire races, religions and societies. pretty sure the majority of jews and arabs have never killed anyone. that image of the middle east sounds like rupert murdochs wet dream though. also the quran is a great book, extremely interesting and highly recommended read. torah too




Not quite.

As I argued earlier, the type of people that can get out generally do. This is why refugees are generally more skilled than the average person. Not only do they recognize the situation, they also formulate a plan to GTFO.

You aren't wrong in that I'm generalizing somewhat. The thing is that in certain environments, especially ones involving combat, the extremists tend to be the ones in power. Because they're fucked in the head and want power the most, compared to the regular dude who just wants to live and let live. Given that power, they criminalize dissent, to the point where regular Joes go through the motions of hate just to keep up appearances and avoid social repercussions. Which also gets normalized and internalized. Ever read 1984? Remember that one passage about the two minutes' hate? Winston doesn't believe it, but he still find himself caught up in the energy of the situation, and for a bit there he realizes he isn't faking it anymore. If he doesn't act, then his neighbors might think he's a sympathizer. If he does act...he slips further down the hole, while *also* being part of the social pressure that keeps everybody else in line.

That's the danger, and that's also the problem. Add in a draft, and my (extreme) post involving casually shooting/blowing people up on the way to work might only apply to 1-2% of the true believers, but is forced upon the entire drafted portion of society, and they fall in line because door number two is to disappear.

If I had to pick between the Torah, the Bible, and the Quran...I'd have to recommend the Quran because they have laws of warfare, and theirs are the most generous. I think the treatment of enemies/opponents is a good gauge of a society, and only one of the three bans poisoning wells, killing livestock, and burning fields. Me, I'm not much of a fighter. Just like anything else, one day you run into somebody that's good at what they do. Most people hate their jobs, they just want to do their time, collect their paycheck, and go home. Fear the people that do their jobs for fun. Seems like under the Quran, I'd be mostly left alone as long as I paid my atheist tax and kept to myself. The bit about free housing and free food guaranteed by the government is nice as well. I don't like seeing homeless people, they spoil my vibe. I'd rather they had a place to live and something to eat. Maybe they'd do something with their free time.

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: Kryptos] * 2
    #26573922 - 04/02/20 07:55 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

in the case of the palestinians, and many millions of local people all over the middle east like right now in yemen and syria, most have nowhere to GTFOut to. there is nowhere to go. they shouldn't have to leave anyway, that is their land. the israelis are plowing over ancient family homesteads and villages to build ethnically segregated military base neighborhoods. that is evil.
so it becomes survival. most of the individuals in regional militia groups probably feel like they are fighting for survival and have no other choice. all the while they are set up and funded by corrupt groups and nations to fulfill secret agendas; weakening groups and regions for eventual control. puppet governments and proxy armies everywhere. the people have nowhere to go
edit: added link: National Geographic June 1992
and somehow the jews get more money power every step of the way
check the shareholders
Quote:


That's the danger, and that's also the problem. Add in a draft, and my (extreme) post involving casually shooting/blowing people up on the way to work might only apply to 1-2% of the true believers, but is forced upon the entire drafted portion of society, and they fall in line because door number two is to disappear.



to me, this post describes the state of israel in the present and recent history.
i think the usa has been close to this point for awhile too.

all great books mentioned there. much of those masonic novels will come to light this year. we are getting close to 451' F too
most of the christians, muslims, and jews i have met do not try to practice the teachings unless someone is watching and they'll feel rewarded. the power hungry sociopaths you mentioned make very good preachers and dictators. it's a shame. we are fucking everything up. the only law is love

Edited by MadMuncher (04/02/20 08:44 PM)

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: MadMuncher] * 1
    #26573958 - 04/02/20 08:25 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
all great books mentioned there. much of those masonic novels will come to light this year. we are getting close to 451' F too




Been there, done that. We aren't just getting close, we're getting close again. One of the most vivid memories of my childhood in the USSR was watching a guy disappear into a black car and being hurried inside, because that was dangerous to see. Even though I was on a fifth floor balcony across the...not really an alley, or a street...like a plaza with a playground. Little park type thing.

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
the only law is love




There is no Law except mathematics, and even then that's only an interpretation of the Law that's useful for human cognition. There is no plan. There is no secret. There is only a bunch of monkeys bumbling around in the dark for a few minutes before the curtains are drawn. And that's the scariest thing. We are equal not because we are humans with rights, we are equal because we are equally nothing. No matter what we do or accomplish. We dance our jig, maybe we even end up the star of the show during our time on stage. But the stage doesn't matter, and there is no audience. No plot. No show. Only the void. Not just darkness, but chaos. And not violent chaos. Random chaos. Chaotic chaos. The void giveth and the void taketh away.

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: Kryptos]
    #26574008 - 04/02/20 08:57 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

i guess my philosophy on that thought is that ones existence should not be detrimental to another's existence. our comfortable lifestyles come at an enormous price and that is wrong.

help those people in darfur if you can too

to me, everyone has the right to do whatever doesn't impede another's right to whatever. conflict is inevitable, that's why we usually instantly ask the kids "who had it first?" and teach them rock paper scissors. our job as citizens is to parent our little governments and make sure they don't set everything on fire and set them up decently to serve us when we need it

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26574021 - 04/02/20 09:04 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

My philosophy is RNGesus.

Also, I hate kids. They're inexplicably sticky.

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: Kryptos]
    #26574029 - 04/02/20 09:09 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

damn. that's too bad. don't have kids. im interested in making the world a better place

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26574044 - 04/02/20 09:17 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

RNGesus is not exclusive to trying to make the world a better place. Personally, I compost and am trying to convince the HOA to let me get a beehive.

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: Kryptos]
    #26574062 - 04/02/20 09:27 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

that is awesome. i didn't mean that to sound shitty btw. kids need lots of love and attention and i think the world may be  a better place if people didn't have kids for selfish reasons and gave them more love and attention especially between ages 0-18. it all starts with food. i dream of permaculture and solar panels and floating gardens made of recycled cars and bottles and microfarms and beautiful wild open spaces

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26574513 - 04/03/20 04:34 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

No offense I swear, but is the title of this thread really, I figured out the Israeli position on Palestine? Because uh, never mind.

Their position is significantly better than the Nazi position on exterminating Jews, but it fits part way up on that spectrum. And I say that as a more or less Jew lover.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26574533 - 04/03/20 04:53 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

what'd you think of the op?

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Re: Free Palestine! [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26575325 - 04/03/20 02:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I think the issue of Israel's position on Palestine is rather obvious.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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