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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Fear of the Great Uncause
    #2081286 - 11/07/03 04:24 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The Great Uncause is beyond human comprehension, so I don't expect anyone here to understand it. No, I'm not human... I'm a giant cockroach.
Moving along...

In the beginning there was nothing. Then, there was something. This something did not come from nothing... it WAS nothing. The nothing just happened to be a noun. THIS was the Great Uncause. The something and the nothing exist only because they can (I told you it would be incomprehensible). So the something and the nothing joined forces, not because they chose to or because they were destined to... NO... it JUST HAPPENED. That's all. No big mystery here. No invisible hand. It's getting harder to understand isn't it? Sorry.

To understand it a little better, answer me this: just what THE FUCK is matter without a lack of it... the space in between?

Things happen. Sometimes there is a cause, sometimes there is a choice, sometimes it's the unknown roll of the dice. In all cases, there is no need to fear or worry... because that is pointless. Without fear, there is no need to humble yourself before a concept. Without fear, piety becomes a joke. Without fear, one is truly free.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: Sclorch]
    #2081361 - 11/07/03 04:50 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, but what is THE SOURCE of the original nothing? Obviously you need some sort of anthropomorphic explanation, otherwise ***gasp*** there is no answer to provide mental comfort, there is no filling in of the blanks. Why, we might realize that we have to take care of ourselves and provide for our own salvation. We need A Big Daddy, A Mommy, A Nanny, or at least A Big Brother...



Help us, we're afraid...



Fuck it. Let's make up something...




--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineGrav
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: Evolving]
    #2081453 - 11/07/03 05:34 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

if we came from nothing than nothing is our god.


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: Grav]
    #2081467 - 11/07/03 05:40 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quick! Call it God!


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2081468 - 11/07/03 05:40 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Call it........ ANYTHING SOMETHING PLESAO


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InvisibleArmFromTheAbyss
Old Hand

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 1,364
Loc: Down here in Babylon
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: Sclorch]
    #2081589 - 11/07/03 06:31 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

How can nothing exist before something if nothing is meaningless without relating it to something?

Does empty space, blackness exist?
You can't have ying without yang can you?

Existence is wacky... two conflicting things happening simultaineously.  :smirk:   


--------------------


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
    #2081722 - 11/07/03 07:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ArmFromTheAbyss1 said:
How can nothing exist before something if nothing is meaningless without relating it to something?



'Nothing' is a concept, meaning the absence of something. Of course if there is absolutely nothing, there would be no thing to conceptualize 'nothing.' Which would mean that if nothing exists, 'nothing' (as a concept) would not exist either. 'Meaning' is also a concept and again, if there is absolutely nothing, there would be no thing to conceptualize 'meaning' or 'meaningless,' there would be no meaning nor meaningless. Do you understand what I mean?

Quote:

Does empty space, blackness exist?



Empty space would require space. If space didn't exist, there could be no empty space. Blackness is our concept of the absence of perceived color. It exists in the mind.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineOook
Oook!

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 533
Loc: England
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: Evolving]
    #2081839 - 11/07/03 07:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

One thing that gets me is the whole meaning of life thing. People say it as just an empty expression that they expect to be filled by someone elses conceptualisation. What if in the hitch hikers guide douglas adams said the meaning of life is 420 instead of 42, if only.

I think whether god created the universe or whether we are here now through a huge series of unlikely events we will never know.
I think its quite a headfuck to think of all matter in existence now being centralised in one miniscule point, creating an immensely powerful explosion flinging matter in every direction. From this, which is basically just components of atoms everything we now know is somehow formed. But hey thats quantum physics.

p.s. sorry if ive missed the point of this thread but its 1am and I couldnt stop myself.


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InvisibleZippoZM
Knomadic
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 13,227
Loc: Pongyang, North Korea
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: Oook]
    #2081864 - 11/07/03 08:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

otherwise ***gasp*** there is no answer to provide mental comfort,





someone hit the nail on the head

somthing came from nothing, but we do not have the capacity to comprehend nothing and thats why its fucked.

but since we came from nothing that means that we are nothing, and that nothing is everything


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: ZippoZ]
    #2082994 - 11/08/03 03:49 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Ponder this, what is perfect? the only 3 possibilities i can think of are #1 nothing, or NO-thing # something that is the same throughout, and is the only thing #3, something without any flaws... meaning it has to include everything, if it was lacking anything it would be flawed. Now ponder this... Science says everything in the universe is a form of energy, even matter. So the universe is completely the same throughout, because its all energy. The universe is the same throughout and the only thing, meeting the conditions for perfection. The universe contains everything and lacks nothing, nothing exists out side the universe, and Nothing also meets are requirements of perfection, because it is the same throughout. Now the problem is if the universe exists and we call it something, then the nothing outside of it is lacking something, the universe. But the universe contains everything, yet nothing is outside of it, so its lacking nothing. Maybe energy is everything, or no-thing, and it is false to discriminate between these two things.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: Evolving]
    #2083006 - 11/08/03 03:59 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

ArmFromTheAbyss1 said:
How can nothing exist before something if nothing is meaningless without relating it to something?



'Nothing' is a concept, meaning the absence of something. Of course if there is absolutely nothing, there would be no thing to conceptualize 'nothing.' Which would mean that if nothing exists, 'nothing' (as a concept) would not exist either. 'Meaning' is also a concept and again, if there is absolutely nothing, there would be no thing to conceptualize 'meaning' or 'meaningless,' there would be no meaning nor meaningless. Do you understand what I mean?

Quote:

Does empty space, blackness exist?



Empty space would require space. If space didn't exist, there could be no empty space. Blackness is our concept of the absence of perceived color. It exists in the mind.




dimensionless.

Have you ever tried to put yourself into that non existance / nothing while triping? Talk about getting small.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/02
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Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2083011 - 11/08/03 04:01 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ZenGecko said:
Ponder this, what is perfect? the only 3 possibilities i can think of are #1 nothing, or NO-thing # something that is the same throughout, and is the only thing #3, something without any flaws... meaning it has to include everything, if it was lacking anything it would be flawed. Now ponder this... Science says everything in the universe is a form of energy, even matter. So the universe is completely the same throughout, because its all energy. The universe is the same throughout and the only thing, meeting the conditions for perfection. The universe contains everything and lacks nothing, nothing exists out side the universe, and Nothing also meets are requirements of perfection, because it is the same throughout. Now the problem is if the universe exists and we call it something, then the nothing outside of it is lacking something, the universe. But the universe contains everything, yet nothing is outside of it, so its lacking nothing. Maybe energy is everything, or no-thing, and it is false to discriminate between these two things.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be




I too thing that the universe and all of existance in general is perfect. And I have no doubt that the universe is unfolding just as is should.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2083090 - 11/08/03 05:16 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Just as it should...Amen
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Offlinecontam
Stranger
Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 20
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: Evolving]
    #2083160 - 11/08/03 06:33 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Obviously you need some sort of anthropomorphic explanation, otherwise ***gasp*** there is no answer to provide mental comfort





Where is the anthropomorphic explanation in Buddhism? in Hinduism? for that matter in Christianity?


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: contam]
    #2083752 - 11/08/03 01:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

contam said:
Where is the anthropomorphic explanation in Buddhism? in Hinduism? for that matter in Christianity?



Do you look for meaning? Meaning is a human concept. Do you ask who created the universe? The idea that someone created it is anthropomorphic. Do you ascribe a consciousness to your god? A human trait. Do you believe in a god? A 'being' that is responsible for everything - an anthropomorphic idea. If you pray, what are the qualities of the object(s) that you are praying to? Why do you think your prayers would make a difference?

When I use the term anthropomorphic, it does not necessarily mean physical qualities (though it may in some cases) it refers to traits of humans, traits which we project unto the unknown in order to attempt to classify it, in an attempt to bring some comprehension to ourselves of that which we cannot comprehend. Of course, the unknown cannot be classified, it cannot be comprehended.

I did not speak of Buddhism, Hinduism or Christianity. Be honest with yourself when you examine various belief systems, most rely on anthropomorphic explanations.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: Grav]
    #2084183 - 11/08/03 04:10 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
if we came from nothing than nothing is our god. 



I like that.  :thumbup: 


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 6 years, 4 days
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: Sclorch]
    #2084224 - 11/08/03 04:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

something didn't come from nothing.

Something came from something different.

I don't think there was ever "nothing."


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinecontam
Stranger
Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 20
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: Evolving]
    #2086048 - 11/09/03 07:30 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I did not speak of Buddhism, Hinduism or Christianity.




No you didn't, but it seems legitimate to ask about them if you talk of anthropomorphization.

In Buddhism you have a "pregnant void". In Hinduism (Vedanta) you have "Brahman", who is incomprehensible according to the upanishads.

I just don't see any anthropomorphization.

Quote:

traits which we project unto the unknown in order to attempt to classify it, in an attempt to bring some comprehension to ourselves of that which we cannot comprehend. Of course, the unknown cannot be classified, it cannot be comprehended




The orthodox Christian position from St. Thomas Aquinas:

"to understand that God is not only above all that exists but even above all that we can comprehend comes to us from the divine wisdom."

and:

"The divine essence by it's immensity surpasses every from to which our intellect reaches; and thus we cannot apprehend it by knowing what it is."

Quote:

Do you ascribe a consciousness to your god? A human trait




analogical predication is used. Theologians concede that human terms are extremely inadequate but that they do have a use. If you say that "God is goodness" then the word "goodness" is not used in the same way as when you use the term of a man. I will not go into the arguments for why analogical predication is said to be justified.

It is sometimes said that "the negations are true and the affirmations are true, but the negations are more true than the affirmations".


Quote:

Be honest with yourself when you examine various belief systems, most rely on anthropomorphic explanations




honestly, I think you are a little ignorant of the "belief systems".


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: contam]
    #2086209 - 11/09/03 11:16 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Honestly, I think what I stated went right over your head, and/or you are offended by what I stated because you have a belief system in which you have an emotional interest.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: Fear of the Great Uncause [Re: Evolving]
    #2086219 - 11/09/03 11:30 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

There's a lot of unquestioned presuppositions going on in this thread.

"The man who has no tincture of philosophy goes through life imprisoned in the prejudices derived from common sense, from the habitual beliefs of his age, or his nation, from convictions which have grown up in his mind without the cooperation or consent of his deliberate reason...."


:wink: 


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