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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: Tao]
    #2078555 - 11/06/03 08:47 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

We libertarians have no problem with helping people. We like to help people (well a lot of us do anyway), but what we don't like is to be forced to help people.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: Tao]
    #2078590 - 11/06/03 08:57 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

its not about what will maximize our already-sufficient incomes, its about helping people in danger of starvation, homelessness and not receiving health-care.

and who doesn't want to do that?

p.j. o'rourke put it well:

"There is no virtue in compulsory government charity, and there is no virtue in advocating it. A politician who portrays himself as "caring" and "sensitive" because he wants to expand the government's charitable programs is merely saying that he's willing to try to do good with other people's money. Well, who isn't?"

mr. jones used to be a shoemaker, but business has been slow and he had to shut down shop. he is now on unemployment. the government takes money away from mr. smith and gives it to the unemployed shoemaker mr. jones. too bad for mr. smith... now he won't be able to afford that new pair of shoes he wanted...

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2078611 - 11/06/03 09:02 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mr. jones used to be a shoemaker, but business has been slow and he had to shut down shop. he is now on unemployment. the government takes money away from mr. smith and gives it to the the unemployed shoemaker mr. jones. too bad for mr. smith... now he won't be able to afford that new pair of shoes he wanted...



HA! Like the taxes on the rich would inhibit them from making a purchase like that! Could you maybe give a more realistic example?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: silversoul7]
    #2078629 - 11/06/03 09:06 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

HA! Like the taxes on the rich would inhibit them from making a purchase like that! Could you maybe give a more realistic example?

think in terms of general principles.

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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: silversoul7]
    #2078633 - 11/06/03 09:07 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I see it as an investment club. we have our money in a pool and decide where we want to spend the money--some to military, some to police and some to the poor. if you dont like the way the investment club is spending your money, then you can leave and go elsewhere.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: Tao]
    #2078636 - 11/06/03 09:08 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

why not just take your money out of the pool?

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: Tao]
    #2078685 - 11/06/03 09:17 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
... its about helping people in danger of starvation, homelessness and not receiving health-care... your obsession with economic freedom and maximizing potential blinds you from a much greater cause: the basic needs of impoverished individuals' lives.



Ever heard of 'The War on Poverty?' Do you realize how long these policies begun under Lyndon Johnson have been going on and how UNSUCCESSFUL they are in lifting people out of poverty? Has it ever occured to you that government handouts have created a permanent underclass, generations of people who are dependant upon the state? You cannot realistically (given the track record and human nature) to continue to throw money at the problem and expect it to change if it has not changed in 40 years with the same tactics. That is the utilitarian side of things - perhaps what's needed are new ways of addressing these old problems (that have been with us since time immemorial).

The moral side is this, it is wrong for anyone to extort/rob/steal from another.

If I assault you on the street with a gun and demand money, if I give to you as my excuse that I will give the money to the homeless, does this change the morality of my actions of robbing you?

Wait, there's more. What if I take 90% off the top after robbing you and only give 10% to the bum at the end of the alley while you are watching? Then I go and rob your neighbor, continuing down your street till everybody has been forced to give money to the poor (while the poor never see 90% of what was taken).

Now, here's the end result, the bum will remain a bum. He has not learned nor been given incentives to change his position in life. In fact, he sees that as long as I rob everyone in the neighborhood, he only has to sit there and provide a justification for me to transgress against you and your neighbors. His position is secure, he is my cheerleader, if I were running for office he would vote for me.

That is the essence of government charity


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: Evolving]
    #2078716 - 11/06/03 09:26 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

if the government quit impeding upon the functioning of the market, so few people would end up truly lacking the basic necessities that voluntary charity alone would be enough for these people. how much starvation and homelessness was occuring in america in the mid 1800's?

liberal "reforms" are well-meaning, but ultimately self-defeating. they fail to see past deceptive superficialities and understand the interconnectedness of the market and the deeper consequences of their legislation. (or maybe they just don't care... they're getting in office for it, right?)

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2079096 - 11/06/03 11:27 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

think in terms of general principles.




general principles are bunk


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2079106 - 11/06/03 11:31 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

liberal "reforms" are well-meaning, but ultimately self-defeating. they fail to see past deceptive superficialities and understand the interconnectedness of the market and the deeper consequences of their legislation. (or maybe they just don't care... they're getting in office for it, right?)



Judging by the way the economy's been handled under Reagan and both Bushes, I have trouble believing that conservatives understand the economy any better than liberals.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2079121 - 11/06/03 11:37 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

the fact that the dems couldn't put anyone up who could beat bush in a landslide says alot.

Not really. More likely they'd just had 8 years of the same government and a few decided they'd like a change. With such a chronically low voter turnout I think the clearest thing you can say is mainstream america has little interest in who is in the white house. It's not like the democrats were offering any alternative to Bush is it. Corporate welfare went up as fast under Clinton as it did under Reagan and Bush.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2079132 - 11/06/03 11:43 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

if the government quit impeding upon the functioning of the market

Then we'd be at the mercy of robber barons just like the population are in South east asia, Africa and south america. Working for 10 cents an hour, our children working alongside us, with a ferocious beating or hanging reserved for anyone who spoke the word "union".


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: Phred]
    #2079395 - 11/07/03 12:53 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

The Daily Show is the best thing to happen to news


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: Shroomism]
    #2079576 - 11/07/03 02:02 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

It's sad when your most real source of news and common sense is a comedy show.

Long live John Stewart :smile:


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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: Xlea321]
    #2080024 - 11/07/03 05:22 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Then we'd be at the mercy of robber barons just like the population are in South east asia, Africa and south america. Working for 10 cents an hour, our children working alongside us, with a ferocious beating or hanging reserved for anyone who spoke the word "union".

must we go through this again?

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 23 days
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2080086 - 11/07/03 06:02 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Alex is right. At the moment government is needed to look after the welfare of the individual in society as we have not evolved to a state where we can be trusted to look after each other without intervention. As the government is, in a limited fashion, answerable to the people then they will to a degree protect the individuals rights from other individuals who would use their economic power to imporve their own situation at the expense of others.


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 23 days
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2080093 - 11/07/03 06:05 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

why not just take your money out of the pool?




Because you will still be using things that the money in the pool pays for.


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Always Smi2le

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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: Xlea321]
    #2080326 - 11/07/03 08:35 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Then we'd be at the mercy of robber barons just like the population are in South east asia, Africa and south america. Working for 10 cents an hour, our children working alongside us, with a ferocious beating or hanging reserved for anyone who spoke the word "union".

i'm afraid not. citing examples of deviation from capitalistic principles is hardly a good way to make a sound argument against capitalism.

i'll address the unions\beatings argument:

it seems that the argument you're trying to make with that is that coercive means of establishing minimum wages, hours, benefits, and the like, are necessary, because there isn't a way for people to negotiate for them effectively without being targetted and attacked by anti-union thugs. correct me if i'm wrong here... i don't want to put words into your mouth. is the argument that the government must do the "negotiating" (note that it ISN'T negototiation) for the workers, because if they set out to do it themselves they'd only be beaten down?

if so, you'll have a hard time explaining the myriad of concessions that businesses and unions have made in the united states over the years. if peaceful negotiations are such a dangerous foray, it is rather curious that unions in america have persuaded business to voluntarily agree to countless regulations, wage guarantees, pensions, and benefits. it would be hard to explain why the minimums set by the US government pale in comparison to the agreements negotiated by the unions.

the situation in the countries you mentioned is so poor because they lack honest leadership and sufficient police power. if the system of voluntary collective negotiation was what was to blame, we'd see the same sort of thing happening in america... after all, it's not as though the minimum wage and 40 hour work week absolve the need for union negotiations... union negotiations are alive and well in america. why? is it because the government guarantees certain minimums? no. they have nothing to do with it. it's because we have police, and they actually uphold the law. this cannot be said of the places you're mentioning.

let's say we've got a $5 an hour price floor on labor set by government in america. then unions come along and start negotiating for $10 an hour... the unionizers don't get beaten down like unionizers arguing for a $5\hour minimum might in some third world nation, where there is no minimum. why? the minimum has got nothing to do with it. in both cases, people are collectively bargaining for better pay. the difference is that we actually have a real police force, not just some group of ragtag, poorly equipped, underpaid, corrupt enforcers lead by corrupt politicians in the pocket of rich foreign corporations.

what does the government set minimum have to do with whether or not unionizers are allowed to unionize wihout being intimidated, murdered, or beaten?

nothing.

about the child labor:

allowing people to sell their children off to go work at a factory is against free-market principles to begin with... not that there would even be a threat of it happening at all. in developed countries with efficient economies, child labor isn't even practical. we have too many adult workers as it is... it's called unemployment.

capitalism is not what's responsible for the conditions of workers in the third world.... it's having poor, backwards economies; economies that can't do as much as support an honest police force. what we see in the third world is NOT capitalism. individual rights are NOT protected. i thought we'd already covered this.

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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: GazzBut]
    #2080332 - 11/07/03 08:38 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Because you will still be using things that the money in the pool pays for.

would you be opposed to individuals only paying for government services that they themselves actually use?

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 23 days
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2080402 - 11/07/03 09:02 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting idea but that could only apply to a limited amount of services. Which ones would you have in mind?


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Always Smi2le

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