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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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The Unconscious Civilization
    #2077785 - 11/06/03 07:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

READ THIS BOOK!
http://www.geocities.com/radiochomsky/unconscious-civilization.html


its time to rethink this RIGHT\LEFT bullshit!


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2077789 - 11/06/03 07:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The technocracy has developed an argument that now dominates our society according to which "management" equals "doing," in the sense that "doing" equals "making." They have based this argument on a new economic mythology. This in turn is dependent on such things as the glorification of the service economy, a legitimization of financial speculation and the canonization of the new communications technology But of course, "managing" is neither "doing" nor "making." As Adam Smith put it: "There is one sort of labour which adds to the value of the subject upon which it is bestowed; there is another which has no such effect." The former is "productive," the latter "unproductive" labour. Smith clearly places management in the unproductive category. "The labour of some of the most respectable orders in the society is, like that of menial servants, unproductive of any value, and does not fix or realize itself in any permanent subject, or vendible commodity, which endures after that labour is past, and for which an equal quantity of labour could afterwards be procured."3
Smith, of course, is realistic: "But there is no country in which the whole annual produce is employed in maintaining the industrious. The idle everywhere consume a great part of it."4 His argument is that the industrious produce the fund which finances the whole community. The idle ? those not engaged in "useful labour"5 ? live upon the industrious. This includes the unwillingly idle ? the unemployed. But he is not talking about them. They are not in a position to cost society a great deal.
He is referring above all to the managerial class of his day ? the aristocracy, the courtiers, the professionals, the land and property owners (who live off rent income), the bankers and so on. In other words, he is talking about our technocratic managerial elite. It must exist. But how much of it can the industrious among us support? The answer might be that 30% to 50% ? the current level of the managerial class in our society ? is far too high; that the management of business along with the financial and consulting industries ? all of which are extremely expensive and increasingly so ? are a far more important factor in keeping the economy in depression than is any over-expansion of government services.
Some of you will be surprised that I am invoking Adam Smith, the god of marketplace worshippers and of the neo-conservatives. Well, I am going to make a point of quoting both Smith and his friend David Hume, the demigod of the same contemporary Right, for two reasons. One is to show that the reigning ideologues of our day base their arguments upon a very narrow use of Smith and Hume. That they seriously misrepresent the more balanced message of the two men. And that the late industrial, global I applications of Smith and Hume, which are now being pressed upon us, bear no relationship to the reality of what either man was talking about in an almost pre-industrial and very localized situation.
Many are surprised that this management elite continues to expand and prosper at a time when society as a whole is clearly blocked by a long-term economic crisis. There is no reason to be surprised. The reaction of sophisticated elites, when confronted by their own failure to lead society, is almost invariably the same. They set about building a wall between themselves and reality by creating an artificial sense of well-being on the inside. The French aristocracy, gentry and business leadership were never more satisfied with themselves than in the few decades before their collapse during the French Revolution. The elites of the late Roman Empire were in constant expansion and filled with a sense of their own importance, as emperor after emperor was assassinated and provinces were lost. The Russian elites of the two decades preceding 1914 ? both the traditional leadership and the new, rapidly expanding business class ? were in a constant state of effervescence.
One of the tricks which makes this sort of closet delusion possible is that the very size and prosperity of the elite permits it to interiorize an artificial vision of civilization as a whole. Thus, ours takes seriously only what comes from its own hundreds ? indeed, thousands ? of specialized sectors. Everything turns on internal reference. Everything is carefully measured, so that heartening "body counts" of growth or job creation or whatever can be produced. Truth is not in the world, it is the measurements made by professionals.


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Edited by Psilocybeingzz (11/06/03 07:07 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2077797 - 11/06/03 07:06 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

technocracy? You're starting to sound like the Unibomber here.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: silversoul7]
    #2077806 - 11/06/03 07:08 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

"technocracy"
look it up
check the link
this guy is not the unibomber , shit I cant belive you said that


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2077859 - 11/06/03 07:21 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

That's ok. I can't believe 3/4 of the things you say.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: silversoul7]
    #2079095 - 11/07/03 01:27 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

John Ralston Saul is a genius. And that book is one of his best.

I was kucky enough to meet him once...at a university function, he gave a speech and afterwards their was a wine and cheese. He signed my copy of The Unconscious Civilization.

That was a while before his wife became the governor general...98 I believe.

Anyways...good book...here's another quote

"It would be impossilble for the corporatist structure itself ever to reward or admire criticism. The necessity therefore it to reinforce the plane on which criticism can prosper and eventually enable the citizen to prosper"


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2079108 - 11/07/03 01:32 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

YES he is, I am glad some people can see that


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2079900 - 11/07/03 06:18 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

"technocracy? You're starting to sound like the Unibomber here. "

whats not to get?
please explain why Saul is wrong here ?????

thats not my comment


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2080381 - 11/07/03 10:54 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

...i dont know why i still bother to post here..this board seems to be dominated by dismissive, arrogant pricks...

Anyway, earlier i posted a rant by Chuck Grimes which everyone naturally dismissed. Paragraphs 11-13 tie in heavily with the managerialism you describe, and is unfortunately one of the most deeply embedded dogmas in our society:

Quote:

A position such as a vice-president of Bechtel, Haliburton, etc., was achieved through great personal sacrifice on the part of that individual; as such it is amoral to even question -- let alone challenge -- the perogatives and actions of the position.




In other words, they have the money so they can do whatever they want to. Unlimited power is seen as a just and necessary reward for drive, ambition, and sacrifice, irregardless of the direction of that drive. Even worse, the power afforded to such individuals is viewed as a constitutionally protected civil right. And many Americans are fiercely proud of it too: Individuals such as the Enron crowd and Martha Stewart remain icons of American potential. Their crimes are well known and documented, yet society absolutely refuses to hold them to account.

Such a morality is obviously flawed: Nobody, no matter how successful, can be allowed to be above the law in a democracy; and the direction of ambitions must be taken into account. Moreover, such positions are more often than not inherited (via stock ownership) rather than earned. Nonetheless, it remains the foundation of our society ("Ignorance is Strength"), and results directly in a cultural idealization of nefarious and criminally-minded individuals.

Protests and demonstrations in the US only attack the implementation of such morals and not the morality itself. This has to change.


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2081794 - 11/07/03 07:38 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Thats the best post I have seen in months.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2082939 - 11/08/03 03:07 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I agree completely: John Ralston Saul is a genius, and probably the best political/cultural critic alive today.

The Unconcious Civilization is great, but for my money his magnum opus is Voltaire's Bastards. Required reading for anybody who wants to understand how the world corporate and political systems really work.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2082957 - 11/08/03 03:14 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

"Voltaire's Bastards."
huh

I will have to check it out, that one came right before "The Unconscious Civilization " right????


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2083001 - 11/08/03 03:55 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2083041 - 11/08/03 04:33 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:
"Voltaire's Bastards."
huh

I will have to check it out, that one came right before "The Unconscious Civilization " right????




I first read VB in '94, think it came out in '92 or '93, quite a while before "The Unconscious Civilization."


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2083168 - 11/08/03 06:42 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

COOL
I will read both of these


but I have to admit the title of the one carbonhoots posted seems REALLY fucking cool

The doubters companion
A dictionary of aggresive common sense

that draws me in as strong ass CNN draws me away :smile:

while we are on the subject of cool books I would like to give a tumbs up to these
THE MYTH OF A GOOD CORPORATE CITIZEN
http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/202/300...in.html(review)

THE WTO: a citizens guide


NOLOGO(really GOOD!!!!)   
I am talking about the book but here is the website
http://www.nologo.org/

The book has four parts, NO Space:about corporate domination of space. 
NO choice: where she explains that most everything is made by few companies.
No jobs:where she explains that the biggests growing sector is the service industry here ! and slave labour elsewhere.

NO logo: this is about how people are fighting back often by targeting the logos that corporations build themselves on.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2084398 - 11/08/03 05:24 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The Doubter's Companion is a rather light read...for John Ralston Saul that is...highly entertaining, and quite informative...

Voltaire's Bastards is like a university semester.... even more complex than the unconscious civilization, me thinks.

Doubter's companion is the kind of book you can discuss with your deluded, Canadian Alliance (or whatever they call theselves today) voting uncle...


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Edited by carbonhoots (11/08/03 05:31 PM)


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: The Unconscious Civilization [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2085318 - 11/08/03 11:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Cool I am going to read them both.

I save books like fat women save chocolate, so it looks as if I am going to be indulging every night soon. :smile:


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