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Anonymous

how bad would they have to be?
    #2077666 - 11/06/03 06:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

how bad would government A have to be before you thought it was morally justifiable for government B (who is not threatened militarily by government A) to invade and overthrow government A, assuming that after the invasion, government B will form a democratic, constitutional government in place of government A?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: ]
    #2077682 - 11/06/03 06:33 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It's hard to say. I would say that overthrowing them would be justifiable if government A was threatening the sovereignty of another country.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2077696 - 11/06/03 06:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

but as long as they were within their own borders, nothing they could do would make it morally justifiable to invade?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: ]
    #2077719 - 11/06/03 06:44 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not saying that. I said it's hard to say. But a related, and I think more relevant question, is how bad would a government have to be before its own people rise up against it? A government can only exist so long as it has the support of the people.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2077803 - 11/06/03 07:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

how bad would a government have to be before its own people rise up against it?

i honestly think that ours is now. that's really not the point though.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: ]
    #2077822 - 11/06/03 07:14 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"how bad would a government have to be before its own people rise up against it? A government can only exist so long as it has the support of the people. "

thats SO much easier to say in America, what about China???

the closest thing I have seen to civil disobedience ETC, is people practicing Falonggong(a meditaion and movement exercise, which is a combo of THI CHI and something else)

anyway, these people are taken by the busload to god knows where
what are they to do?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2077853 - 11/06/03 07:20 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

As I said, a government can't exist without the support of at least a significant portion of the population.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2077854 - 11/06/03 07:20 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

THI CHI and something else? well, I'm glad you know what you're talking about. You didn't mention how the Falun Gong people are a religious cult who infiltrated the government with their followers in an attempt to overthrow the communists and replace it with a twisted priesthood.


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Anonymous

Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2077875 - 11/06/03 07:27 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

yeah, i don't think there is any clear line that can be drawn. by principle, i don't think there's anything wrong with deposing any government which does not protect the rights of its citizens, as long as it is intended to be replaced with one that does. but then, that would mean every government currently in existence... and intentions can be hard to translate into actualities. it's a tough line to draw.

... and if the war is supported with funds or soldiers raised through coercion, that's a whole 'nother issue.... but for me, it has something to do with how the line is drawn.

for me, it comes down to this:
1. a war fought by the government of nation A in defense of the people of nation A from nation B is always justifiable, even if the funds are from taxes and the soldiers from the nation's military.

2. a war fought by the government of nation A in defense of the people of nation B from the government of nation B is justifiable if war funding is derived from non-coercive sources and the soldiers are volunteers trained and equipped with volunteered funds (unlikely).

3. a war fought for purposes other than defending some group of people from force is never justified.

... i don't think the government should ever use the military exept for defending its own citizens. but then, i also don't agree with any form of international aid.

it's just as wrong, and for the same reasons, for the government to send our troops to aid in overthrowing a despotic regime as it is for it to send aid dollars garnered through taxation.

does anyone follow this libertarian rant?


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Anonymous

Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: ]
    #2077889 - 11/06/03 07:31 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

but for you folks who believe in sending aid garnered through coercion, the question might be a little different...


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OfflineTao
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Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: ]
    #2078104 - 11/06/03 08:33 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i believe its justified in the case of genocide (e.g. bosnia, rwanda)

as for having the support of the populous, that just necessitates manufacturing consent which has become an increasingly perfecting art since the selling of WWI (although its ability is being threatened by the technology of the internet).


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: Tao]
    #2078727 - 11/06/03 11:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"THI CHI and something else? well, I'm glad you know what you're talking about. You didn't mention how the Falun Gong people are a religious cult who infiltrated the government with their followers in an attempt to overthrow the communists and replace it with a twisted priesthood. "

I do know what I am talking about , were did you hear they were going to overthrow the government

from the chinesse governmnet ?
ya real trustworthy!

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/falungong.html


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2078744 - 11/06/03 11:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I;ve read the english version of the Fallun Gong. In fact I own a copy.

One of the basic tenets of Falun Gong/Dafa is that all power eminates from the guy who made it up.

It's a genuine cult.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2078773 - 11/06/03 11:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"One of the basic tenets of Falun Gong/Dafa is that all power eminates from the guy who made it up."

seriously??????

I didnt know that,source???????

anyway, I dont wanna join or anything like that, I just thought this was another case of china messing with human rights, which CULT or not, I have not seen something real dangerous about them yet.

anyone remember Jonestown, I have a bunch of clips of that guy when he was really starting to go crazy, popping sleeping pills 24\7 etc


"there out there........out there watching!.....we'll kill them it they come!!!!!!"
(it gets so much MORE fucked up!)

"Love is the ONLY WEAPON, SHIT, MARTIN LUTHER KING DIED TALKING ABOUT LOVE..........KENNEDY, died talkingh about some kind of a self love he couldnt understand!!!!

Love is the only weapon, I got plenty of weapons...........

I got my cross , my bible, dinamite, etc etc....I'll fight
I'll fight!!!!!!!!'

to the cheers of sheep!


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Anonymous

Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2078783 - 11/06/03 11:41 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

:wtf:


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Anonymous

Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2078787 - 11/06/03 11:42 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

you're gonna be one of those guys on the corner with a sign, i can feel it.  :tongue:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: ]
    #2078855 - 11/07/03 12:04 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
:wtf: 



My thoughts exactly.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: ]
    #2078863 - 11/07/03 12:05 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
how bad would government A have to be before you thought it was morally justifiable for government B (who is not threatened militarily by government A) to invade and overthrow government A, assuming that after the invasion, government B will form a democratic, constitutional government in place of government A? 




About as bad as the Bush junta. But you knew that was coming :smile:, so ill make it more interesting and divide it up:

Northeast (me) => EU
Midwest => Russia
Southeast (Jeb) => Cuba
Southwest (Shrub & Arnie) => Iran
Northwest => Canada
   


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2078865 - 11/07/03 12:07 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It's hard to tell from the bad grammar,but I think he was quoting Jim Jones (crazy kool-aid with cyanide guy).


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: how bad would they have to be? [Re: monoamine]
    #2079114 - 11/07/03 01:35 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"It's hard to tell from the bad grammar,but I think he was quoting Jim Jones (crazy kool-aid with cyanide guy). "

YES , I was, how hard it to tell????

and the reason I wrote that was to show how FUCKed up religon can be!

"anyone remember Jonestown, I have a bunch of clips of that guy when he was really starting to go crazy, popping sleeping pills 24\7 etc


"there out there........out there watching!.....we'll kill them it they come!!!!!!"
(it gets so much MORE fucked up!)

"Love is the ONLY WEAPON, SHIT, MARTIN LUTHER KING DIED TALKING ABOUT LOVE..........KENNEDY, died talkingh about some kind of a self love he couldnt understand!!!!
Love is the only weapon, I got plenty of weapons...........
I got my cross , my bible, dinamite, etc etc....I'll fight
I'll fight!!!!!!!!'

to the cheers of sheep! "

I dont mind being critizied just make sure you are not talking out your ass, i.e. siversoul, mushmaster


"you're gonna be one of those guys on the corner with a sign, i can feel it."
really , maybe my sign could carry some great truth like.......
those that have no point only mock , casuse they have nothing to say, or something like that





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