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topdog82
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How could an omnipotent God exist?
#20734705 - 10/21/14 05:59 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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So as some background, Im not a theist or an atheist. I rly dont know what I really am
But how could an omnipotent God exist? So first off, lets assume there's this God. This God is beyond human conception. This God is infinite. This God is omnipotent
Now I think its fair to say that a God that is beyond human conception is going to be beyond labels such as "male" and "female". I remember reading somewhere in the Hindu scripture that God is said to be beyond dualities. So lets assume that this is such across the board. To be omnipotent, infinite and beyond concpetion, one would have to be beyond dualities. I think thats pretty reasonable
First off, an omnipotent God that is beyond dualities would not be a "he". It would be an "it". But that is a conversation in and of itself for another thread, and I think many have already pointed that out. This also applies for Good and Bad being used to describe God
Secondly; We have no established that this God is not male or female. Nor can it be Good or Bad. So now, how can this God who is beyond labels and dualities exist? Existence and nonexistence itself would be a duality? Existence and nonexistence are ideas within human conception?
So what is wrong in this three step process? How could one justify existence of an infintie being? 1) God is beyond dualities 2) existence/nonexistence is a duality 3) God cannot exist (but at the same time he cannot NOT exist either)
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Ped
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: topdog82] 1
#20734901 - 10/21/14 06:37 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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The proposed existence of an omnipotent consciousness capable of thought and volition is logically incoherent. We know this is true because omnipotence requires a dissolution of cognitive discernment, i.e., the distinction between things and events as they exist in spacetime. When these boundaries are erased from consideration, it becomes impossible to assign any characteristics to the notion of an omnipotent being. Such a being cannot be male or female, nor can such a being have a body, a location, a name, nor any sort of discerning preference, will, or intention. Because this is true, omnipotent beings are not capable of cognitive processes.
In simpler terms, a God concept requires an ego imputation. Since ego implies differentiation, and since differentiation implies the finite, an omnipotent ego simply cannot exist. Such beings are not a component of reality, and anyone who contradicts this claim is thereby out of touch with reality.
>> So first off, lets assume there's this God. This God is beyond human conception. This God is infinite. This God is omnipotent.
I recommend that you assume the opposite, as this will save you a lot of unnecessary thinking. This is true because contemplating something that is fundamentally beyond human conception is a complete waste of time, and because the notion of an infinite, omnipotent ego-consciousness is plainly ridiculous.
-------------------- Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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Rahz
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: topdog82]
#20735013 - 10/21/14 06:55 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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You've surmised that dualities exist and that God cannot be but one of two. This by itself makes the idea of God being a sentient father or mother fall apart.
Non-existence doesn't exist in the way that both males and females exist, therefore existence isn't part of a duality. It is the context in which duality occurs. So in this way God could be said to be omnipotent, though once a person rejects the common definitions and is in complete bewilderment of the root of their existence, using the word God doesn't seem reasonable. People use the word because they don't have another one. They could just say existence. Existence is existing.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton
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Ped
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: Rahz]
#20735092 - 10/21/14 07:08 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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>> using the word God doesn't seem reasonable. People use the word because they don't have another one. They could just say existence. Existence is existing.
Indeed, and this returns us to the environs of natural phenomenon, which is the domain of scientific inquiry. Science, not mysticism, is a pathway to authentically cogent understanding.
-------------------- Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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omegafaust
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: Rahz]
#20735123 - 10/21/14 07:15 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Existence and nonexistence are not dualities.
A duality is two halves of a whole, so nonexistence cannot be part of a whole as it is the lack of "anything"
as your concept of male and female being dualities, they are, because both are attributes of human sexuality as a whole.
Now omnipotence is all encompassing, which removes your concept of "non-existence". The lack of something cannot be considered a part of "anything".
Conceptually and scientifically there is no such thing as "nothing. Some may claim empty space is nothing, like the emptiness of space, but the concept and proof of dark matter has shown us this "nothing" or empty space is actually filled with something.
To assume there is no God is just as logically foundationless as saying there is one. The problem here is the definition of "God".
As most people attribute manlike qualities to this higher power, the argument for proving it's existence and lack of evidence makes many believe that "it's existence is fallacy.
Now to assume that everything, all of creation and the universe, you and I included is God counters this argument. We are all connected and all energy and matter is recycled, this mechanism can be claimed as God, but the naysayers nix this idea because it doesn't fit their concept of a "God" they domt believe in.
-------------------- The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself. All you are is a thought.
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Ped
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: omegafaust]
#20735215 - 10/21/14 07:30 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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>> To assume there is no God is just as logically foundationless as saying there is one.
This is not correct. A logical foundation is not necessary to prove a negative. A logical foundation is required to prove a positive. Since there is no evidence for the existence of a God concept in whatever form, asserting the reality of such a phenomenon requires a logical foundation. Observing the absence of such a phenomenon does not.
If I say to you, "there are no tigers in the room with me," I do not have to furnish a logical foundation for this claim. All that is necessary is to observe that no tigers are present. If I say to you, "my coffee mug repels tigers," a logical foundation beyond the mere absence of tigers is required to justify this claim. The God concept is like this.
Earlier in our evolutionary development, the investigative capacity of the human brain was vastly inferior to its inquisitive capacity. The God concept was invented during this period as a means to settle the anxiety inherent to unanswered existential questions. Because this is true, the God concept does not and cannot ever have a logical foundation. Now that science has furnished us with the investigative capacity to fully accommodate our inquisitive capacity, the God concept is obsolete and soon to be defunct. It no longer requires serious discussion.
-------------------- Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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omegafaust
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: Ped]
#20735323 - 10/21/14 07:52 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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How, if I claim everything in existence is god, can you say that I am wrong? This is not as simple to explain away as pinning god to be a particular being which there is no proof of. We have proof and can see everything we have discovered in the known universe, seeing this as God does not fit into your dismissal of a specific being.
Take for instance the concepts of sacred geometry, which is in the root of every major religion. Certain shapes are the basis for all matter and energy, This repetition in nature was mans sign that there was a pattern to things beyond our power, which is manifested in the concept of God.
Over time man has moved from this mathematically based mysticism and replaced it with concepts that are akin to our observable experience.
We have personified this all encompassing pattern and in turn migrated away from the root meaning.
A good example of this is the concept of zero. The concept of zero did not exist mathematically in ancient times, as nothing was an impossibility, there is always "something". When the concept of zero was conceptualized it opened up the ideas of "nothing" which in turn created avenues for atheism, or the belief that there is npt an almighty power.
You are assuming and arguing against the idea that my concept of god fits in with christian beliefs of god, or some other personified image of the almighty. This is not my idea or concept, as I feel believing such is a fallacy.
Instead I view existence itself and everything in it as God. You cannot argue against this with the concepts you have presented, as our existence and what we can percieve in the universe is can be proven. However you can argue that my concept is wrong.
And any reply you have to disprove my beliefs cannot undermine them, as what I believe as "god" is present in every moment. you can merely disagree with me.
-------------------- The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself. All you are is a thought.
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Ped
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: omegafaust]
#20735497 - 10/21/14 08:27 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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>> How, if I claim everything in existence is god, can you say that I am wrong?
If "god" refers to a discreet consciousness in this context, I can say that you have no evidence to prove that your claim is correct, and that your claim is thereby incorrect. Evidence is not required to prove a negative, and is incorrect to assert a positive without proportionate evidence. It really is this simple.
>> Take for instance the concepts of sacred geometry, which is in the root of every major religion.
Most people who embrace religious delusions do not know what "sacred geometry" is. Furthermore, there is no such thing as "sacred" geometry, because "sacred" is a value-judgement and not a component of reality. Nothing is sacred from its own side. Things are "sacred" from subjective points of view only.
>> This repetition in nature was mans sign that there was a pattern to things beyond our power, which is manifested in the concept of God.
Geometry was first described in the 6th century BCE by Thales of Miletus. Deistic concepts were predominant in ancient Egypt thousands of years earlier than this. It is not correct to say that geometric observations manifested the concept of God.
>> The concept of zero did not exist mathematically in ancient times, as nothing was an impossibility, there is always "something".
The first appearance of zero occurred in 1740 BCE Egypt.
>> When the concept of zero was conceptualized it opened up the ideas of "nothing" which in turn created avenues for atheism, or the belief that there is npt an almighty power.
Atheism has nothing to do with the concept of zero. Atheism is a rational observation which correctly understands theistic belief systems as basically valueless and incorrect.
>> You are assuming and arguing against the idea that my concept of god fits in with christian beliefs of god, or some other personified image of the almighty. This is not my idea or concept, as I feel believing such is a fallacy.
Whether or not your concept of god conforms to established theistic traditions is irrelevant, because believing in things for which there is no evidence does not require a tradition to be incorrect.
>> Instead I view existence itself and everything in it as God. You cannot argue against this with the concepts you have presented, as our existence and what we can percieve in the universe is can be proven. However you can argue that my concept is wrong.
If "God" is treated as a mere synonym for existence or reality, it means that your concept of god is an unnecessary and redundant. It is a problematic inefficiency of thought.
-------------------- Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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DividedQuantum
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: topdog82]
#20735567 - 10/21/14 08:43 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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The problem with this question is the word "omnipotent." Ped is right -- and omnipotent being cannot, and does not, exist.
But...
What if there is a god or are gods which are not omnipotent? Let's take out the word "god," shall we? Is it conceivable that there are beings which exist on a spectrum of power in the universe in which humans are, decidedly, not at the top? Do you think aliens could possibly exist in a potentially infinite universe? Can you really say they couldn't?
I think the big problem with these god debates is the word omnipotent. I have no problem imagining in a universe, and indeed a multiverse, of our inconceivable size that there are fabulously, outrageously powerful -- though not infinitely so -- beings out there someplace. I find it would be rather insular and species-chauvinistic not to do so.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Icelander
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And why would I call these aliens god(s). I think I'd be calling them beings that are not nearly as stoopid as we are. Or something to that effect.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DividedQuantum
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: Icelander]
#20735641 - 10/21/14 08:57 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well you could call them whatever you want. Point is, there could very well be beings out there that would sure look pretty godlike to us, and not have to be omnipotent or in any way infinite to do so. I think this word 'omnipotent' gums everything up, and is distracting.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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omegafaust
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: Ped]
#20735670 - 10/21/14 09:06 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Geometry may have been first described in the 6th century, but it was used far before then.
Hinduism, the oldest religion which can be traced back to 5500 bc, used "sacred" geometry as the basis for their architecture as well as their concepts for the divine.
Athiesm originated in the 6th century bc. This is quite a while after the concept of zero originated.
With the idea of zero came the idea of nothing, or lack of something. To say this did not open the doors to a belief in there being "no-" god isn't logical.
Maybe I need to extrapolate, i view the driving force of everything in reality as "God". As everything is part of this force, all matter is a part of this god. This "driving" force is, as far as we know, a result from everything we have in the known universe, so the substance and the act of it ever changing is my concept of "God".
I do not attribute consciousness to my idea of "god" because consciousness as we know it is limited to what we can see, humans and animals.
-------------------- The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself. All you are is a thought.
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Ped
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: omegafaust]
#20735791 - 10/21/14 09:32 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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>> Geometry may have been first described in the 6th century, but it was used far before then.
[citation needed]
>> Hinduism, the oldest religion which can be traced back to 5500 bc, used "sacred" geometry as the basis for their architecture as well as their concepts for the divine.
[citation needed]
>> Athiesm originated in the 6th century bc. This is quite a while after the concept of zero originated.
>> With the idea of zero came the idea of nothing, or lack of something. To say this did not open the doors to a belief in there being "no-" god isn't logical.
When the sun sets, it becomes absent from view. It is not necessary to grasp the concept of zero to make this observation. There is no interface between integrating the concept of zero and observing the mere absence of the sun. By the same, it is not necessary to grasp the concept of zero to observe that the God figure described in theistic traditions is completely absent from view.
If you intend to continue insisting that atheism emerged from the concept of zero, you will have to furnish evidence to support that insistence.
>> Maybe I need to extrapolate, i view the driving force of everything in reality as "God". As everything is part of this force, all matter is a part of this god. This "driving" force is, as far as we know, a result from everything we have in the known universe, so the substance and the act of it ever changing is my concept of "God".
>> I do not attribute consciousness to my idea of "god" because consciousness as we know it is limited to what we can see, humans and animals.
It is therefore unnecessary to bother with the problematic superfluity of the "god" abstraction, because everything you referred to is adequately described as natural phenomena. Natural phenomena do not require any whimsical adornments to be properly understood, and in these adornments only introduce perceptual distortions.
-------------------- Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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Icelander
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Well you could call them whatever you want. Point is, there could very well be beings out there that would sure look pretty godlike to us, and not have to be omnipotent or in any way infinite to do so. I think this word 'omnipotent' gums everything up, and is distracting.
They may be out there but there is little to no credible evidence that they have been or are here. So.... I don't put too much time on that one.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DividedQuantum
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: Icelander]
#20737229 - 10/22/14 09:24 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Well you could call them whatever you want. Point is, there could very well be beings out there that would sure look pretty godlike to us, and not have to be omnipotent or in any way infinite to do so. I think this word 'omnipotent' gums everything up, and is distracting.
They may be out there but there is little to no credible evidence that they have been or are here. So.... I don't put too much time on that one.
Oh, I agree. I don't give it much thought, either. All I'm saying is that once you remove the word "omnipotent," things are in the realm of possibility. Yet we insist if there is a god, he or it has to be omnipotent. I'm not sure why.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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topdog82
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well on a side note, it goes without saying that identifiying this God as a living invisible person basically capable of conciousness thought is within itself absoltely silliniess assuming omnipotence is part of the conversation
But Thank you, I enjoyed the posts. I really wanted to get both sides of this convo
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: topdog82]
#20737313 - 10/22/14 10:00 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
it goes without saying
And yet...
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crumblebum
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From a Hindu angle, I think you've about summed it up. God, being beyond dualities, neither exists nor doesn't exist, is neither powerful or powerless, neither old nor new. When it gets late on a lonely weeknight, this is the god I end up talking too.
The best reasoning for why all this is true is found in the basic pantheism of Hinduism. If you consider a "set", and this set contains everything that can be said to exist, and possible everything that cannot be said to exist, well, what could you say about that thing?
If there are things inside it that are both old and new, how is it either? Perhaps it has power, but what can it exercise that power on? Itself, because there is nothing outside itself. This god, the formless, is beyond dualities because it contains and expresses them all, and thus destroys them.
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Icelander
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: crumblebum]
#20737500 - 10/22/14 11:02 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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God, being beyond dualities, neither exists nor doesn't exist, is neither powerful or powerless, neither old nor new. When it gets late on a lonely weeknight, this is the god I end up talking too.
I used to talk to "god" long after I quit really believing. It was so in my program. I just realized by reading the above that I almost never do that anymore. I just don't even bother. It's all bullshit.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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crumblebum
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Re: How could an omnipotent God exist? [Re: Icelander]
#20737550 - 10/22/14 11:15 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: God, being beyond dualities, neither exists nor doesn't exist, is neither powerful or powerless, neither old nor new. When it gets late on a lonely weeknight, this is the god I end up talking too.
I used to talk to "god" long after I quit really believing. It was so in my program. I just realized by reading the above that I almost never do that anymore. I just don't even bother. It's all bullshit.
It's a neurological exercise. From an evolutionary standpoint, society doesn't tolerate useless appendages, and religion or at least the belief in something outside and above the human experience, has been a consistent feature.
Essentially it's just a way to talk to a smarter, wiser, more patient version of myself. The version of myself who is detached from my current troubles and can take the long view.
I find something like 1984 double thing very useful, as long as you're doing it for yourself, consciously, and for your own purposes.
God exists and cares about my problems and concerns. God does not exist and my problems are my own to deal with. It profits me to believe the first one, for a time, and then the second one, for a time.
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