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Offlinejibninja
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Help with Amanitas (British Columbia)
    #2070792 - 11/04/03 08:56 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I picked some Amanitas Muscaria from my university campus, and have been meaning to try them but I am afraid they are potentially poisonous. Can anyone tell me if there is any look alike red-white spotted amanitas in BC that could potentially kill me?


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OfflinePsychogenik
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: jibninja]
    #2071759 - 11/05/03 01:31 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I think you're in the wrong forum.


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OfflinePaid
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: jibninja]
    #2072294 - 11/05/03 05:37 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

There are no look alikes that i know of, assuming you have id'ed them
including the volva. This is a potentialy dangerose shroom as is,
so please be 100% sure, and read up on it before consumption.


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Offlinewhole9
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: Paid]
    #2072302 - 11/05/03 05:45 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

crazy :blush:


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Invisiblelongshot
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: whole9]
    #2072330 - 11/05/03 06:10 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

No matter what you have, if you plan to pick amanita at all spend some time and do your homework.
Not really for recreation IMO.


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Offlinesuperblingtheory
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: longshot]
    #2072533 - 11/05/03 09:47 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

yes- there is a lookalike and it's edibility is uncertain.  Look at the stems and see that they are not yellow. (I believe that parcivolvata is what I'm looking for, but I can't rem. of that is it or not.)  Also there are orange capped spotted mushrooms (flaviconica- or flavivolvata- can't rem again but one of the two.) and their edibility is similarly questionable but are frightningly similar.  Please check for rings around the base of the stems- should be a few concentric bands of thickness around the circumfrence of the stems base that wouold indicate (based upon coloration) muscaria of some variety- muscaria, formosa, percina (sp?).  Do be cautious.  B.C. is beautiful- why the fuck aren't you out looking for everything else you can find? :smile: :mushroom2:  Hope you have some luck friend.  Send me samples and I will put the cap on any doubt you may have. :nut:


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: jibninja]
    #2072888 - 11/05/03 12:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Whether a mushroom is a lookalike or not seems to depend strongly on how good you are at identifying mushrooms. There was a thread out here recently where photos of a Russula were posted and the mushroom was described as being a lookalike of Amanita muscaria by the poster. I wouldn't have called it a lookalike, but they had a good point - mushrooms that are less similar have been mistaken for each other. Since we have no idea how good you are at identification, we cannot give you a very definitive answer.

As to your comment on a lookalike being poisonous, Amanita muscaria is considered poisonous. Is your concern that your specimens might include one of the deadly Amanitas? Here in Colorado Amanita muscaria is common, and it is the species of mushroom which accounts for the greatest number of emergency room visits. Pretty much all the people who eat it are trying to get high, then they find that the symptoms are not pleasant - so unpleasant, in fact, that they are willing to subject themselves to a $US1000 bill and nasty treatments from an emergency room.

There have been deaths due to Amanita muscaria. On the positive side, they have involved large quantities. One guy who ate 24 caps suffered massive seizures about 4 hours later and died (he had mistaken them for Amanita caesarea, a choice edible mushroom). Also positively, very few people have died from eating them.

If your concern is about the deadly amatoxins, none of the known amatoxin containing Amanitas has a red cap.


If you have a concern about possible misidentification, then posting detailed photographs here should help. Make sure you show the base of the stem and the volva. When you pick the mushrooms, make sure you get the base of the stem, even if you have to dig down into the ground to do it.


If you decide to try your mushrooms, try a very small amount at first. That way, if you've made a mistake, the consequences won't be as severe. Yeah, you won't get off from a tiny amount, but it gives you the chance to verify that you haven't gotten something really nasty. If you've misidentified them and what you've got is really poisonous, then eating only a tiny amount will make it so that you get much less sick (and you won't make it really bad by eating a bunch later).

Be sure to save a couple specimens in your refrigerator. That way, if you get sick, you can take them with you to the emergency room for expert identification. If you don't get sick, you have more for later.

Another thing to be aware of - if you're *really* worried about being poisoned, your anxiety can produce symptoms that are very similar to mushroom poisoning. A poster to this forum recently experienced this. The symptoms can be distressing and last several days.

If you eat them and feel sick, seek immediate medical attention! Do not lie to the doctors. Tell them what you ate, and what you thought you were eating. Take specimens with you to the emergency room for expert identification.


Happy mushrooming!


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Happy mushrooming!


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Offlinecanid
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: ToxicMan]
    #2073052 - 11/05/03 01:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

good advice TM.

not to scare you jibninja, but the intoxication induced by this mushroom, when you have positively identified it, is not one many people ever care to repeat, and many go on to wish they had never even heard of A. muscaria.


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Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.


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OfflinePaid
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: canid]
    #2073368 - 11/05/03 03:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yes great advise toxicman.
But one small thing is that when ever i eat Amanita muscaria
I feel sick for the first 1/2 to 1 hour, but it passes. No
real sick just quizzy.
So I wouldnt want you to get charged $1000 (wtf? i cant belive
that a civilsed country would charge that for an emergency room
visit) for common affects of fly agaric.

but toxicman knows his stuff, so if you feel anything other than quizzy, the do as he says.


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Offlineaje
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: Paid]
    #2073545 - 11/05/03 04:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i have read that out of the amanita genus, there are some extremely poisonous mushrooms. whether they look similar to amanita muscaria or not, i do not know


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: aje]
    #2073987 - 11/05/03 06:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

i have read that out of the amanita genus, there are some extremely poisonous mushrooms.



You read correctly. Amanitas kill more people than all other genera of mushrooms put together. The deadly Amanitas are primarily Amanita phalloides and the group of species close to A. virosa.

That is the primary reason that most books tell people to learn to be able to identify Amanitas and avoid them completely. The consequences of a mistake are too high.

Quote:

So I wouldnt want you to get charged $1000 (wtf? i cant belive
that a civilsed country would charge that for an emergency room
visit) for common affects of fly agaric.



The $1000 figure comes from an actual (non mushroom) case from a few days ago. A young man had been throwing up for 3 days straight, and decided he would go to the local emergency room. He didn't have insurance. At the emergency room they told him it would cost $1000 to see a doctor, and he had to put up a $260 deposit up front before they'd let him in. He decided to not waste his money. Needless to say, my opinion of medical people has dropped considerably.


Happy mushrooming!


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Happy mushrooming!


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Anonymous

Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: ToxicMan]
    #2074146 - 11/05/03 07:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

:smile2: Its very unlikely that Amanita muscaria would kill you unless you ate it in massive overdose. I have eaten the orange and yellow caps a few times and while it can make you rather sick its nothing to dial 911 about. (Don't eat more than one cap however)

A better choice is Amanita patherina as it tends to contain more of the drugs that get you high and very little if any of the drugs that make you sick. The effects are very fun, but very different from the psilocybin mushrooms. 


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Offlinedumlovesyou
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: ]
    #2074256 - 11/05/03 07:53 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Unfortunatelly I was taken to the emergency room. Seems like I got over some very powerfull ones. I only ate 4 caps..and when going out with a friend I lost control on reality, everything I was doing was a dream, but in reality it was happening, it was only me that thought I was dreaming.(the effects made my body have many powerfull spasms, uncontrolable) I made many things at the hospital, while thinking I am still tripping(dreaming). I was many persons in the same time, doing diffrent things. I was still at the place where the amanitas took effects(where the "dream" started and where I thought I really am). I hope you got the point. I never ever took amanitas from that moment. But I think I will someday in the future. :smile:) I am curious how I will see this dream and if I will still think this reality is a dream. hehehe
  Be carefull! And act wisely(if you can say that).


--------------------
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I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world


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Anonymous

Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: dumlovesyou]
    #2076005 - 11/06/03 04:20 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

With fresh Amanita muscaria you probably shouldn't eat more than one cap cause you could get pretty sick if it happens to be potent in its toxins. Also 1 cap of fresh A. muscaria or A. pantherina is probably enough as far the hallucingenic drugs in them go as well.

Once again I would recommend sticking with A pantherina cause it usually has very little if any of the toxic chemicals in it.
:lol:


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: ]
    #2076057 - 11/06/03 04:51 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

While Amanita muscaria is the #2 mushroom in Colorado for poisonings, Amanita pantherina is a close #3. Chlorophyllum molybdites is #1.

It doesn't help that the true Amanita pantherina has not been reliably found in North America. The original collection of the species was from France. There are several species that are collected and given the name Amanita pantherina in North America. They are difficult to tell apart without a microscope, and probably have different concentrations of the various toxins in them. Also, there are probably several species of this complex that are not yet named.

To make matters potentially worse, Amanita phalloides (probably the deadliest Amanita) has forms with cap colors that are similar to Amanita pantherina. Unless you know what to look for, you should be *very* cautious about eating Amanitas. Mistakes tend to be more permanent with them than with most mushrooms.

Your report that Amanita pantherina causes fewer side effects differs from the literature I have. A. pantherina contains a number of toxins in addition to those in A. muscaria (for example, Stizolobic Acid and Stizolobinic Acid) whose effects have not been studied in humans. Also, the concentrations of toxins are typically higher in A. pantherina than A. muscaria. In medical cases, poisonings by A. pantherina are usually more severe.

I agree with the recommendation of using minimal doses. Fatalities from these mushrooms and their close relatives have been the result of massive doses, young children eating them, or mixing them with other drugs (alcohol, for example).

And I cannot overemphasize that if you don't know how to accurately identify your Amanitas, you have no business eating Amanitas at all. The risk is too high. More people die from eating Amanitas than all other kinds of mushrooms put together.

Happy mushrooming!


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Happy mushrooming!


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Anonymous

Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: ToxicMan]
    #2076094 - 11/06/03 05:25 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Does the A. phalloides varity you mentioned ToxicMan just have a dark brown cap or does it have that classic white patches cap of muscaria and patherina? I have only seen phalloides in photos but it seems to look pretty different than pantherina. Also in what ways does the american A.pantherinas differ from the french collection? Is it such a huge differnce as to warrent calling them a diffenrent species or are the diffence more just reginal variations? :smile2:


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Offlinesuperblingtheory
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: ]
    #2076274 - 11/06/03 09:03 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

A. Phalloides does not have a collection of patches about its cap and the main concern with them would likely be that you assume you are getting a cap that has had it's patches washed away (common) and go "oh well- it's near all these others, and yeah it's a litle taller- alittle thinner, but....oh why not!" It's cap is not DARK brown and sopmetimes is much more washed out dep. on its age, looking very pale. There are different subspecies and variants that house different makeups of different chemicals and occur from region to region specifically and there are thought to be mushrooms capable of hybridizing with like species producing mushrooms of VERY questionable edibility. This raises concern mainly with what are typically thought of as pantherina varieties as they are picked for recreation and are similar to a whole bunch of like mushrooms where as the muscaria is almost unmistakable due to it's color (save for parcivolvata which I don't believe to be common in B.C.- check the base of the stem though. Probably better not to pick panthers if you are not a seasoned pro. Possibly not even muscarias- but I'm not telling anyone what to do or not do-- that's Ashcrofts job apparently. But he's too busy crazily slobbing Bush's knob in some orgy prone planning session with the top crazies right now so I guess I'll have to warn you all by myself- don't eat panthers.


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OfflineYendor
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: superblingtheory]
    #2076438 - 11/06/03 10:33 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Make sure you dry them too, once they've been positively ID'd. It helps convert ibotenic acid to muscimol, making it more potent, while destroying the main toxin: muscarine.


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: Yendor]
    #2076548 - 11/06/03 11:20 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yendor - Drying and heating the mushrooms does indeed help convert the Ibotenic Acid to Muscimol. There is no effective process to remove or inactivate the Muscarine. Fortunately, Muscarine only occurs in trace amounts in Amanitas.


SoftRat - as superblingtheory stated, Amanita phalloides does not have warts (although it does sometimes have patches) on the cap. On the other hand, the last 3 times I found US versions of A. pantherina, they were lacking warts on the cap.

For those who want to learn a bit more, here is a page by Rod Tulloss, the current North American authority on the genus Amanita. Although his site is still very much under construction, there is a lot of useful information there. Note that that description is very incomplete, and it is inadequate for identification. Neither is the photograph (or any set of photographs) adequate. You need to learn the key features for the species to identify it correctly. (Before anybody asks, I'm not going to write up that list. I don't have a source I consider adquate to get the information from.) Dr. Tulloss is working up more than 100 new species of Amanita of which a large percentage resemble A. pantherina. The point of all this being that you cannot accurately identify a member of the A. pantherina complex of species to species without detailed microscopic examination, and even then you're likely to find your specimens are an as yet unnamed species. Dr. Tulloss has found *lots* of misidentified specimens in herbaria.

It's a very unsatisfactory situation, but there's not a lot we can do. Unless you want to get your doctorate in mycology and see if you can get Dr. Tulloss to finish writing all this stuff up.


Happy mushrooming!


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Happy mushrooming!


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Anonymous

Re: Help with Amanitas (British Columbia) [Re: ToxicMan]
    #2076738 - 11/06/03 12:44 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

:smile2: If you are going to eat A. muscaria or A. patherina make sure they show all the classic features. When picking these mushrooms I always reject one that have had their warts washed away, just in case they are something else.

I am aware of several species of Amanita that look similar to A.pantherina but as far as my knowledge go none of them are readily deadly. They seem to either be eddible or exibit the same type of toxicity as A.muscaria. Please let me know what you know about this Toxic man.  :lol:


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