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InvisibleMudaFuka
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #20688726 - 10/11/14 01:40 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

All cubes have the potential to produce similar fruits. Hell I've had B+ that looked a lot like PE. However each variety dose have certain characteristics that they are more likely to exhibit. My John Allens usually have a very distinct cap shape, my cambose are really fast and fruit like hell. my B+ have hollow stems, GT fruits slowly and has big dark caps, PE is unmistakeable and so are varieties like AA+. A cube is a cube but...


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AMU
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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #20688728 - 10/11/14 01:41 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MustardTiger66 said:
Those descriptions for the different strains are just fortune cookies in a different application.



:thumbup:

any variety you grow is going to need agar work/ strain isolation to produce consistent and good results.

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OfflineFractal420
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #20691658 - 10/12/14 06:53 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MustardTiger66 said:
Seems to me that the names are all hype. The genetics themselves seem to be the determining factor. I agree with bodhisatta in that I've grown countless varieties from spores and have been unable to observe any major differences between them. Some do 'this' and then do the opposite when you grow them out from spores a 2nd time. If you inoculate 15 brf jars with a single syringe, you'd be hard pressed to see any consistency that couldn't be written off as coincidence. Isolated genetics allow you to observe traits and consistent behavior. If any convincing evidence was put forth to say otherwise, then I would be on board with the whole 'strains' thing but it just isn't there. Those descriptions for the different strains are just fortune cookies in a different application.





Back in the PF days, I actually noticed a decent amount of consistency in the more domesticated cubes. If 8 jars were knocked up with Cambodian, and 8 with B+, it wouldn't be hard to see which is which. I remember noting that the pins were different colors and so were the mature fruit. Also the B+ I've had experience with have slightly greenish caps (not like trich, lol, just the tint). They also tend to not open the veil all the way, things like that. b+ was almost always convex for me. Even at maturity.

Also, if you're doing two identical looking tubs (the tubs themselves) and they fruit at the same time, can't you tell the difference? Unless they're both similar classic cubes or something.


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye


Edited by Fractal420 (10/12/14 06:54 AM)

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OfflineTheMustardTiger
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Fractal420]
    #20691672 - 10/12/14 07:06 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Fractal420 said:
Quote:

MustardTiger66 said:
Seems to me that the names are all hype. The genetics themselves seem to be the determining factor. I agree with bodhisatta in that I've grown countless varieties from spores and have been unable to observe any major differences between them. Some do 'this' and then do the opposite when you grow them out from spores a 2nd time. If you inoculate 15 brf jars with a single syringe, you'd be hard pressed to see any consistency that couldn't be written off as coincidence. Isolated genetics allow you to observe traits and consistent behavior. If any convincing evidence was put forth to say otherwise, then I would be on board with the whole 'strains' thing but it just isn't there. Those descriptions for the different strains are just fortune cookies in a different application.





Back in the PF days, I actually noticed a decent amount of consistency in the more domesticated cubes. If 8 jars were knocked up with Cambodian, and 8 with B+, it wouldn't be hard to see which is which. I remember noting that the pins were different colors and so were the mature fruit. Also the B+ I've had experience with have slightly greenish caps (not like trich, lol, just the tint). They also tend to not open the veil all the way, things like that. b+ was almost always convex for me. Even at maturity.

Also, if you're doing two identical looking tubs (the tubs themselves) and they fruit at the same time, can't you tell the difference? Unless they're both similar classic cubes or something.




This isn't a convincing account by any means.


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OfflineFractal420
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #20691811 - 10/12/14 08:29 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Not trying to convince, just what I seemed to notice

How would you like me to convince you? Lol. Why would I do such a thing? Just offering what I've spotted


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye


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Invisibleazur
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Fractal420]
    #20691858 - 10/12/14 08:59 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Fractal420 said:
Quote:

MustardTiger66 said:
Seems to me that the names are all hype. The genetics themselves seem to be the determining factor. I agree with bodhisatta in that I've grown countless varieties from spores and have been unable to observe any major differences between them. Some do 'this' and then do the opposite when you grow them out from spores a 2nd time. If you inoculate 15 brf jars with a single syringe, you'd be hard pressed to see any consistency that couldn't be written off as coincidence. Isolated genetics allow you to observe traits and consistent behavior. If any convincing evidence was put forth to say otherwise, then I would be on board with the whole 'strains' thing but it just isn't there. Those descriptions for the different strains are just fortune cookies in a different application.





Back in the PF days, I actually noticed a decent amount of consistency in the more domesticated cubes. If 8 jars were knocked up with Cambodian, and 8 with B+, it wouldn't be hard to see which is which. I remember noting that the pins were different colors and so were the mature fruit. Also the B+ I've had experience with have slightly greenish caps (not like trich, lol, just the tint). They also tend to not open the veil all the way, things like that. b+ was almost always convex for me. Even at maturity.

Also, if you're doing two identical looking tubs (the tubs themselves) and they fruit at the same time, can't you tell the difference? Unless they're both similar classic cubes or something.



:thumbup:


--------------------


A cube is NOT a cube.

FALL IN LOVE WITH LC
FOTTSE!!!
ALL NOOBS READ THIS!!!


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OfflineTheMustardTiger
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: azur]
    #20691903 - 10/12/14 09:22 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Just show me some scientific literature that supports your view and I'll consider it. Until then, it's just you saying you saw something.


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Invisibleazur
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #20691910 - 10/12/14 09:24 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MustardTiger66 said:
Just show me some scientific literature that supports your view and I'll consider it. Until then, it's just you saying you saw something.



Ditto on the opposite


--------------------


A cube is NOT a cube.

FALL IN LOVE WITH LC
FOTTSE!!!
ALL NOOBS READ THIS!!!


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OfflineTheMustardTiger
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: azur]
    #20691924 - 10/12/14 09:29 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't make the claim. The burden of proof is on you.


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Invisibleazur
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #20691938 - 10/12/14 09:35 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

But you are claiming the opposite


--------------------


A cube is NOT a cube.

FALL IN LOVE WITH LC
FOTTSE!!!
ALL NOOBS READ THIS!!!


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: azur]
    #20691952 - 10/12/14 09:41 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

could just post pictures of 10 grows with different varieties(other than aa+ PE KSSS) and then have people try to label them. I'm guessing that would go really well.

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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #20691953 - 10/12/14 09:41 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Workman said:
If I may jump in here on the breeding true from spores aspect. 

You lose on average 50% of heterozygosity with each strain generated from multispore (analogous to selfing in plants).  What this means is, the more sequential generations you do via multispore, the less variability you will see in the later generations until the variability is nearly undetectable.  There will come a point that the only variability will be from new random mutations.

OK, so what is this point, or how many generations until you can be confident you have a true breeding strain?  With a wild strain you would assume 100% heterozygosity. Previously domesticated strains will obviously have less heterozygosity but since that is unknown it doesn't hurt to be conservative. 

Mathematically you can see the reduction in variability with each generation.  It drops off quickly and then around generation 5 or 6 the gains in stability drop off dramatically.  After generation 7, with heterozygosity less than 1%, the rate of random mutations will outpace any small amount of remaining variabilty loss in later generations.

Wild 100%
F1 50%
F2 25%
F3 12.5%
F4 6.25%
F5 3.125%
F6 1.5625%
F7 0.78125%

Generate several strains from the spore print and you should expect to see huge differences between these new strains if the heterozygosity is high.  Choose the strain(s) with traits you want (in this case, cap color and size) and take prints.  Repeat with these new prints.  You can probably feel pretty confident that after doing this 5 or 6 times that the strain is stable, especially if you don't see any new variants in the later generations.

Good luck and I hope this is understandable.




This means that depending on what the person who cultivated and propegated the variety initially was looking for (or not bothering to look for) will greatly affect the outcome down the road. If I started out (like most vendors do) looking mainly for fruits with good spore production, that will become a trait that the variety will carry. Conversely if I just grew and printed at random, disregarding any traits whatsoever, it is possible that the line could end up with poor or questionable tendencies.

Of course the world of genetics is huge and even with 0.78125% variability there is still lots of room to play with, provided you have agar and are cloning or isolating to find your consistency. The cube is a cube thing is something told to noobs to keep them from worrying about shit that has no easy to explain answer. But we shouldn't take it too literally. I have grown a few different varieties and have noticed tendencies that they have. Also the so called "mutant" strains, how do you think they came to be? Someone carefully grew the varieties out going back to earlier generations to stabilize the traits.

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OfflineTheMustardTiger
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: azur]
    #20691970 - 10/12/14 09:43 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Your rebuttal is fallacious. You are making a claim and I'm saying that your 'proof' is anecdotal and there's no real evidence to support it. I'm not trying to turn this into a flame war, but you're clearly wrong. You just have a conviction you aren't willing to let go because you don't want to be wrong. I'm asking you for the scientific literature on your claim and if you present that and it proves your claim, I'll believe it. You're being a stubborn mule and refusing to acknowledge that your claim isn't grounded in any real evidence.


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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #20691989 - 10/12/14 09:49 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

here we go again..
:uppercut:



--------------------
EAT GETS SHIT DONE


:flame::chief:JOIN THE POW WOW:chief::flame:

Edited by eatyualive (10/12/14 08:09 PM)

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Invisibleazur
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #20691991 - 10/12/14 09:49 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Stubborn mule?  Funny if i call names i get banned.
I've grown enough to know what i know. I haven't the time to amuse you to research scientific evidence. You're the one who is curious, not me. You do the research and prove me wrong and i will gladly admit being wrong and forever change my signature to whatever you like.
I really have no problem being wrong and when i am i openly admit it. I try to make sure my thoughts are correct before writing them out, so i don't have to go down that road.
Feel free to pm me with any evidence supporting either case.


--------------------


A cube is NOT a cube.

FALL IN LOVE WITH LC
FOTTSE!!!
ALL NOOBS READ THIS!!!


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OfflineTheMustardTiger
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: eatyualive]
    #20692001 - 10/12/14 09:53 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

This shouldn't even be an argument. Prove it, or continue waxing poetically about anecdotes. No one is mad that people are having dialogue about it; talking is great, but don't claim it to be a truth and then get pissy when someone asks you to prove it. You seeing something those couple of times isn't good enough.


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InvisibleMrGiraffe

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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #20692011 - 10/12/14 09:56 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

Workman said:
If I may jump in here on the breeding true from spores aspect. 

You lose on average 50% of heterozygosity with each strain generated from multispore (analogous to selfing in plants).  What this means is, the more sequential generations you do via multispore, the less variability you will see in the later generations until the variability is nearly undetectable.  There will come a point that the only variability will be from new random mutations.

OK, so what is this point, or how many generations until you can be confident you have a true breeding strain?  With a wild strain you would assume 100% heterozygosity. Previously domesticated strains will obviously have less heterozygosity but since that is unknown it doesn't hurt to be conservative. 

Mathematically you can see the reduction in variability with each generation.  It drops off quickly and then around generation 5 or 6 the gains in stability drop off dramatically.  After generation 7, with heterozygosity less than 1%, the rate of random mutations will outpace any small amount of remaining variabilty loss in later generations.

Wild 100%
F1 50%
F2 25%
F3 12.5%
F4 6.25%
F5 3.125%
F6 1.5625%
F7 0.78125%

Generate several strains from the spore print and you should expect to see huge differences between these new strains if the heterozygosity is high.  Choose the strain(s) with traits you want (in this case, cap color and size) and take prints.  Repeat with these new prints.  You can probably feel pretty confident that after doing this 5 or 6 times that the strain is stable, especially if you don't see any new variants in the later generations.

Good luck and I hope this is understandable.




This means that depending on what the person who cultivated and propegated the variety initially was looking for (or not bothering to look for) will greatly affect the outcome down the road. If I started out (like most vendors do) looking mainly for fruits with good spore production, that will become a trait that the variety will carry. Conversely if I just grew and printed at random, disregarding any traits whatsoever, it is possible that the line could end up with poor or questionable tendencies.

Of course the world of genetics is huge and even with 0.78125% variability there is still lots of room to play with, provided you have agar and are cloning or isolating to find your consistency. The cube is a cube thing is something told to noobs to keep them from worrying about shit that has no easy to explain answer. But we shouldn't take it too literally. I have grown a few different varieties and have noticed tendencies that they have. Also the so called "mutant" strains, how do you think they came to be? Someone carefully grew the varieties out going back to earlier generations to stabilize the traits.




:whathesaid:


--------------------

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Invisibleazur
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #20692017 - 10/12/14 09:57 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MustardTiger66 said:
This shouldn't even be an argument. Prove it, or continue waxing poetically about anecdotes. No one is mad that people are having dialogue about it; talking is great, but don't claim it to be a truth and then get pissy when someone asks you to prove it. You seeing something those couple of times isn't good enough.




A couple of times?  Get several thousand grows under your belt and then we can talk. No one is getting pissy. And i didn't bring this up, you did. You want to know then ypu do the leg work. We'll all be anxiously waiting to hear what you find out.


--------------------


A cube is NOT a cube.

FALL IN LOVE WITH LC
FOTTSE!!!
ALL NOOBS READ THIS!!!


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #20692029 - 10/12/14 10:00 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

It has been proven as far as I am concerned. Lucy and rust spores aside, KSSS has tendancies that no one who has bothered to grow it can refute. Does not mean that every KSSS grow will be stubby rock solid little bastards, but most of them will. AFAIK the tendency to produce mutants like that consistently (that are not lucy or rust spored) is pretty good evidence. Fiji is another good example with its tendency to bruise green instead of blue. Happens too often to be simple coincidence. Even PE will put out normal looking fruits, blobs, albinos and all sorts of other mutations. But its still known and grown for its dick shapes and everyone knows about its poor spore production.

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OfflineTheMustardTiger
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Re: Strain Thread-Strain Discussion Here Only Please [Re: azur]
    #20692048 - 10/12/14 10:04 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Well, if I didn't make it clear enough already: I'm not going to prove a negative. Over a thousand grows and you didn't document your findings on a topic that you tout as an absolute truth? If the imperical evidence was right in front of you, why didn't you take advantage of that and document that for skeptics such as myself.  No one would question it if you would just prove it.


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