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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Patriarchy
    #2068500 - 11/03/03 07:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

In my cultural anthropology class today, we discussed how male domination is pretty much universal throughout the world's various cultures. Some cultures have more rights for women than others, and some are almost equal, but they are all essentially patriarchial. Apparently, this mainly has to do with two factors: food distribution and child-rearing.

In hunter-gatherer societies, the more the people rely on meat, the more dominant the men are, though the hunter is always more dominant than the gatherer to some degree. In Eskimo society, where meat makes up the vast majority of their diet, women are essentially treated as objects. In societies in which women are more self-sufficient, they tend to have more freedom and power. This is why working women in industrialized societies tend to be more empowered than housewives. The husband provides the means of support for a housewife, and therefore holds the power.

However, no matter how self-sufficient women are, there is one thing that will always prevent them from achieving equal status: children. A woman's "gift of life" is also a curse. Even a working mother has to sacrifice her career to some degree in order to raise her children. It's either that or neglect her duties as a mother. This is why many career-oriented women choose not to have children.

In order for a society to survive, however, people have to procreate, and therefore there must be some amount of gender inequality. The survival of the human race depends on it. Individual women may get ahead and even achieve equality, but by biological imperative, the women of the society as a whole cannot. Sorry ladies. We still run the world.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlineiamhimheisme
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Registered: 10/28/03
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Re: Patriarchy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2068535 - 11/03/03 08:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Individual women may get ahead and even achieve equality, but by biological imperative, the women of the society as a whole cannot.  Sorry ladies.  We still run the world. 




thought you were going to wrap that up with 'We still run the world.  Now get back in the kitchen and make me some dinner'.  im just kidding of course :wink:.  im all for equality, but the man-hating feminists can kiss my ass.  not to rant or anything, but theres a girl in my sociology class that spouts off more generalizations about men than a KKK member about minorities.  really pisses me off. 


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Invisiblequestioning
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Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 64
Loc: joisey
Re: Patriarchy [Re: iamhimheisme]
    #2068598 - 11/03/03 08:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

i watched a thing about this on tlc or something. Women have a differnt neurological trait that allows us to multi-task, where as men are better at focusing on one particular goal at a time. Women can take on many goals, but lack the detail. which is why women are better handling children, taking care of the household, and accomplishing many differnt things throughout a day. Men are better at going to work, and accomplishing one larger goal. Of course it's not to say that men and women can't trade positions, but that our bodies are built for different purposes.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Patriarchy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2068654 - 11/03/03 09:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Feminists make me sick. They dont give a ~damn~ about women; they only care about feminists. And thats a lame name for them too because their always trying to out-macho the men. Its products have been the likes of Margaret Thatcher, Condoleeza Rice, Carly Fiorina, Anne Coulter, Martha Stewart, and a generation of their junior wannabees that feature on rubbish TV shows like Sex in the City, and just about every other commercial. And this is what they do. So much for feminism being a "left-wing" movement. Just think about it: why is the male-dominated corporate media so happy to publish Andrea Dworkin, The SCUM Manifesto, and Helen Fisher (link below)??

And what jamhimheisme said about them sounding like the KKK is sooooo true too. As an example i'll give you Helen Fisher. If that isnt nazi propaganda then i dont know what is. And if ppl start buying into that kind of bullshit it will validate other forms of discrimination too. "Feminazis", it would seem, are no mere figments of Rush Limburger's imagination.

There are some of us who appreciate the "gift of life" (even though i am pro-choice) and we dont need pricks like them degrading our femininity for what they call "women's liberation".


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (11/04/03 10:05 AM)


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
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Re: Patriarchy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2068696 - 11/03/03 09:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Thats a view i dont often see, but i think its very important though. I cant be drawn away from the book Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury, where a world of minorities sacrificed their intelligence for "equality". Im all for an equalibrium and all, i just dont think a lot of the stuff that people do to get there is necessary. And imo i think its counterproductive in whichc people go about doing it.... They say one thing about the world that treats them wrong, and then they go and start creating the same twisted scenarios out of the world which they got away from.

Anyway, on the subject of partriarchies.... I remember reading an excerpt on some kind freudian darwinism was it? Well i guess it basically stated that men were natural born leaders... as in the essence that they lead the pact of progression. They make the guide for where things will go, but on the other hand, women function as the source, they provide the materials, they are the foundation for which the outcome of prosperity will flourish. To me i see it as a mutual relationship, and with the ideas of all this "im a feminist", "im a homosexual", or whatever only serves to continue to seperate people, not unite them. I think its okay for people to tell other people who they are, but i dont think they should consider themselves helpless and that they should have certain rights. Respectively i dont think people should believe they are better than everybody else and take away which rightfully should be distributed to others.

Looking at the whole Patriarchy thing is interesting. Some scholars think that the world, before the worship of male centered deities i.e. zeus, that the world had followed a distinct matriarchal society. Some people call it the great godess, Gaia i suppose. But my mythology teacher disputes the idea... meh, i dont know.  :laugh:


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What?


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Invisiblequestioning
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Re: Patriarchy [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2068772 - 11/03/03 10:01 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"To me i see it as a mutual relationship, and with the ideas of all this "im a feminist", "im a homosexual", or whatever only serves to continue to seperate people, not unite them."

exactly, it's all about team work. who has more power or rights isn't the issue. Fair, unfair, right or wrong, doesn't matter. actively change it or shut up. until then, you can learn your place, whether it be the kitchen makin me pie, doing grunt work, or thinking about a new way to improve an existing situation... every part of society is an important part. no one can do their job effectively, unless everyone else does theirs effectively. By staying home, raising the next generation, and cooking dinner for your man, you are enabling him to go to work and make the funds to continue your lifestyle. He can't focus his energy on that if he's focused on cleaning, cooking, running errands, etc. When he goes to work, he is providing a service for someone else, so that that person can focus their energy on what they need to do to ensure their lifestyle, and ensure jobs for other people. It's a never ending chain, remove a link, the chain weakens, even if it still holds up to the wind, that big dog on the loose might knock it down.

I go to school to earn a career in psychology. At the same time, i realize i may never enter that field at all. I have the desire to stay home, take care of my future children and raise them to be wonderful, compassionate people, and provide my future man with a clean home and good food that enables him the energy to work for our family. Old fasioned to say the least, but an inviting idea to me. With times changing, i realize i might not achieve that goal, so i'm preparing myself to enter a career oriented life if that's what life presents me with.


--------------------
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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Patriarchy [Re: questioning]
    #2068938 - 11/03/03 11:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Patriarchy is actually not a universal thing. There are tribal cultures that are patriarchal, then there are those that are matriarchal or egalitarian. The notion that patriarchy appears in every culture, everywhere without fail is such a myth.

If you need sources on that read the culture of make believe by Derrick Jensen. He delves deeply into tribal cultures, and the failings of our own civilization. Patriarchy is a major theme, although not the only one.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Patriarchy [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2068967 - 11/03/03 11:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I have heard that shit about there being matriarchial cultures, and believed it for a while, but it seems most anthropologists(even feminist anthropologists) don't support those claims. Sure, there are matrilineal cultures(cultures where inheritance and lineage is passed on through the mother), and there are cultures whose religion centers around a female goddess, and those in which the woman chooses a husband rather than the other way around, but ultimately, I think you'll find that the men still tend to be the ones in charge, unless you'd like to show me some link that proves otherwise.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Patriarchy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2068978 - 11/03/03 11:42 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I can offer the book, and search for a link, but as I havn't done this research on the net books are all I can suggest.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Patriarchy [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2068991 - 11/03/03 11:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well, in the meantime, here's a couple links for you:
http://www.newint.org/issue270/curious.htm

http://www.suppressedhistories.net/articles/eller.html

I'm still in the process of a Google search for matriarchial cultures. Most credible sites(ones not run by feminazis or New Age Wiccans) say true matriarchy has never existed, and those that claim it has existed back up their claims by redefining what "matriarchy" means.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Patriarchy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2069047 - 11/04/03 12:22 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Define "true matriarchy" without using partriarchal models of power structures. The thing is, we assume that for women to be powerful they have to act like men, or take on masculine roles. That's a bit silly IMHO.

The iroquois were interesting. From my understanding the men may have held the role of government, but it was women who had the final say on all decisions. They were like the senate... if they didn't like what the men came up with they'd veto it. I'd say that even though they had prescribed gender roles it was an egalitarian form of decision making that valued the opinions of both genders and didn't place anyone in a role of superiority.

I think the reason that there aren't many examples of matriarchal cultures as opposed to egalitarian or patriarchal ones is that women would rarely get the notion that thier genitals somehow make them better than those with different genitals. The notion than any gender is inherently superior is ridiculous. Different? Sure. Our genders offer us different ways of relating to the world, and therefore may set us up to be better in certain roles.

Such differences in roles doesn't necessarily make a culture "patriarchal" per se.

Of course I could do a little more research into anthropology, and I intend to. I've read some about it through green anarchist material.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Patriarchy [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2069238 - 11/04/03 01:46 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Define "true matriarchy" without using partriarchal models of power structures. The thing is, we assume that for women to be powerful they have to act like men, or take on masculine roles. That's a bit silly IMHO.



There's a point to be made there, but that's exactly what I'm talking about when I say that those trying to prove the existence of matriarchies attempt to redefine it. Yes, there have been societies where women had a significant amount of control in family matters and were treated more or less as equals by the men in their society. But I'm talking about economic and political power.

Quote:

The iroquois were interesting. From my understanding the men may have held the role of government, but it was women who had the final say on all decisions. They were like the senate... if they didn't like what the men came up with they'd veto it. I'd say that even though they had prescribed gender roles it was an egalitarian form of decision making that valued the opinions of both genders and didn't place anyone in a role of superiority.



So, the men made the decisions, and the women voted yay or nay on it, huh? Frankly, I'd still love to be a man in that culture. Sure, many cultures have had near-egalitarian systems, but the women's role as mothers still kept them from attaining full political and economic equality.

Quote:

I think the reason that there aren't many examples of matriarchal cultures as opposed to egalitarian or patriarchal ones is that women would rarely get the notion that thier genitals somehow make them better than those with different genitals. The notion than any gender is inherently superior is ridiculous. Different? Sure. Our genders offer us different ways of relating to the world, and therefore may set us up to be better in certain roles.



Hey, it's not that we think our genitals make us better(not all of us anyway). It's that our gender role as provider for the family, rather than caregiver, allows us to advance ourselves, financially and otherwise, more than most women could. Women's role as primary caregiver to their children leaves their hands tied to an extent.

Quote:

Such differences in roles doesn't necessarily make a culture "patriarchal" per se.



Maybe it's not, but statistically you're still making $0.75 for every dollar I make, and ya know what? I bet that has something to do with gender roles.

Quote:

Of course I could do a little more research into anthropology, and I intend to. I've read some about it through green anarchist material.



As I said at the beginning of this thread, I'm taking a course on it now, so I can teach you what I've learned.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Patriarchy [Re: silversoul7]
    #2069722 - 11/04/03 10:11 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I have heard that shit about there being matriarchial cultures, and believed it for a while, but it seems most anthropologists(even feminist anthropologists) don't support those claims.  Sure, there are matrilineal cultures(cultures where inheritance and lineage is passed on through the mother), and there are cultures whose religion centers around a female goddess, and those in which the woman chooses a husband rather than the other way around, but ultimately, I think you'll find that the men still tend to be the ones in charge, unless you'd like to show me some link that proves otherwise. 




Actually in such societies, women directed the spiritual life of the community while men handled the administrative tasks. In ancient Egypt, for example, the male pharoh and his advisors relied heavily on female priestesses to guide their decision making. There were also male priests, but the "bishops" were women.

I would also like to add that Lynne Cheney is as good a role model for women as Charles Manson is for men :smile:
 


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (11/04/03 10:39 AM)


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