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Anonymous

Re: Read and learn [Re: Evolving]
    #2072650 - 11/05/03 08:44 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

"You mean the envy driven government run extortion ring which uses the distribution of stolen goods to obtain votes?"

:thumbup:

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Read and learn [Re: afoaf]
    #2072743 - 11/05/03 09:25 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Since Mushmaster did a find job of addressing your points, how about you address this one... Please give an example of any monopoly that has come into existence and maintained it's status longer than the length of a patent WITHOUT the material or legal help of a government.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineGrav
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: Read and learn [Re: Evolving]
    #2072812 - 11/05/03 10:04 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Does anyone consider systems paid for by taxpayers set up to educate the homeless on how to find work, a government handout?

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Anonymous

Re: Read and learn [Re: Grav]
    #2072882 - 11/05/03 10:43 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

absolutely.

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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Read and learn [Re: Evolving]
    #2072939 - 11/05/03 11:07 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

how about you re-read what I said.

tendency of capitalism to lead towards monopoly

you love your *true* monopolies never exist without
the government's help argument, don't you?


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Read and learn [Re: afoaf]
    #2072997 - 11/05/03 11:30 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
how about you re-read what I said.

tendency of capitalism to lead towards monopoly



I have read and re-read what you said. I would like some evidence to back it up. You have provided no example of a monopoly that has come into existence and stayed in existence without governmental interference in the marketplace. In other words, no evidence that monopolies will be maintained without the state, without the initiation of force.

Now you could play the intellectually dishonest game and state that since a company is gaining market share (even a start up that has made it's first sale), that such a company is showing a tendency towards monopoly, but there is no logical way to prove that this means that monopolies will come into existence and maintain their existence without the initiation of force in the marketplace.

If you are going to blame the free market for the ills of society, you should at least be able to come up with one example, otherwise you should re-examine your premises. Please give an example of any monopoly that has come into existence and maintained it's status longer than the length of a patent WITHOUT the material or legal help of a government.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Anonymous

Re: Read and learn [Re: Evolving]
    #2073057 - 11/05/03 11:50 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

what if it owns most or all of a critical natural resource? (debeers, ahem).

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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Read and learn [Re: Evolving]
    #2073100 - 11/05/03 12:02 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't say free market capitalism inevitably
leads towards monopolies.

I know how much you'd wish that I had said
that considering how much you love playing
your monopoly card.

If you can't differentiate between 'lead towards
monopoly' and 'invariably create monopoly'
then I think that this conversation has reached
an impasse.

but let me try this angle:

in america today, we see a growing number of
megaliths that have continually squeezed out
smaller operations to gain larger and larger
pieces of the pie. luckily, home depots, walmarts
and mcdonalds have enough competition from
other megaliths competing in the same market,
but I'm still only left with a choice between OSH
and Home Depot instead of the variety of local
hardware stores and lumber yards that have all
but vanished from my town.

note, costs, convenience and quality are not
markedly better at these warehouse outlets.

there may never be a true monopoly, but the
choices available to me in the marketplace have
shrunk markedly and will continue to do so.

which gets me back to my original point:

the rich get richer while the poor get poorer and
over time this can exacerbate social issues.

Most American families have seen their level of
well-being stagnate over the last quarter-century--
and that's even before the current economic slowdown.
Between 1973 and 1998, the real hourly wages of the
average American worker fell by 9 percent. (This
contrasts with the preceding quarter-century, 1947 to
1973, when real wages grew by 75 percent). Indeed, in
1998 the average inflation-adjusted hourly wage was
about the same as in 1967. As workers' wages have
stagnated, economic inequality has worsened. In 1974
the richest 5 percent of American families earned 14.8
percent of total U.S. income; by 1998 their share had
risen to 20.7 percent.


http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/3/wolff-e.html

(the site doesn't strike me as the most unbiased, but it's
no www.newsmax.com)


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Anonymous

Re: Read and learn [Re: afoaf]
    #2073110 - 11/05/03 12:06 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

even saying "lead" towards monopoly is a false statement. unless there are other conditions present (such as a limited, critical natural resource) the free market leads away from monopolistic structures.

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Read and learn [Re: ]
    #2073260 - 11/05/03 12:58 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

with the tendency of capitalism to lead towards monopoly,
doesn't it make sense to entrench a systemic means of
counteracting this imbalance?




thank you, afoaf! That was brilliant!

The end goal of many capitalist entrepreneurs is market dominance. Even if they pursues this goal through capitalist means, it is still a communist goal.

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Anonymous

Re: Read and learn [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2073301 - 11/05/03 01:09 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

The end goal of many capitalist entrepreneurs is market dominance.

no, the goal is profit. dominating a market may or may not run parallel to this goal. in the vast majority of markets, the only way to 'dominate' is to offer a better product at a lower price than your competitors. what's so bad about that?

Even if they pursues this goal through capitalist means, it is still a communist goal.

explain.

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
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Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Read and learn [Re: ]
    #2073439 - 11/05/03 01:51 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Most of the homeless people have mental problems. Most of them were Mental Institution patients who had their Hospitals shut down because of pay cuts. Now they roam the streets. Some of them are just people who were like you and me. They had bad luck. Couldnt pay off their house, Had a illness in the family and lost all their money to pay for Doctors bills. Anyone who despises the poor is no good in my book.


Proverbs 20;13 Whoever stops his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

28;27 He who gives to the poor shall not lack, but he who hides his eyes shall have many a curse.

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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
Loc: Ripple's Heart
Re: Read and learn [Re: ]
    #2073447 - 11/05/03 01:54 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

how can you say that the market leads away
from monopoly when we've seen the amount
of competition in numerous markets reduced
more and more?

telecommunications, automotive, financial,
retail, agribiz.

while profit and market dominance are not
always one and the same, it seems that the
two are more likely to be bedfellows than not.

take your 'goal is profit' statement, for example.

WalMart is notorious for knocking local competition
out of business using predatory pricing. after
successfully eliminating local competitors, they
happily raise prices again. while they use the incomes
from their numerous other outlets to subsidize the
losing one, they are still foregoing potentiall profits
for the sake of market dominance. which, ultimately,
tends to lead to greater profits.



--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Anonymous

Re: Read and learn [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #2073563 - 11/05/03 02:27 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

i'm all for charity. there is a difference between charity and welfare.

i participate in a food drive drive each year. i go door to door and ask people if they can spare any non-perishables for the needy. this food goes to shelters and churches that have food programs.

it'd be far different if i went up to people's doors with a shotgun demanding they give me food or else. or broke into their houses and stole the food... or robbed it from a store.

do you know who comes for you if you don't pay your taxes?

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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Read and learn [Re: ]
    #2073591 - 11/05/03 02:33 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

My mother is a social worker. Yes their are welfare cheats and lazy people, But not as much as you think. Most of these people are just plain unlucky bastards.

Got cancer cant afford to pay their bills they get medicare.
Medicare is almost flat broke now. So yeah if you get cancer and have 100,000$ dollar doctor bills and you cant get medicare cause you make 25,000 dollars a year just 5,000 dollars more than the limit of medicare and your not elligible for medicare.

Cause that is how it works. Everyone gets screwed. You'd be surprised how many people begging for medicare or just someone to pay the doctor bills she has to see everyday.

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Read and learn [Re: afoaf]
    #2073654 - 11/05/03 02:46 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

thanx again afoaf!

I was going to use the WalMart example, but I see you have already done a pretty good job of that.

even pinksharkmark once admitted that historically, all capitalist systems have devolved into communism eventually.  He doesn't acknowledge this as a general rule, however, which is quite atypical of his style of thought :wink:

mushmaster:

I didn't say that ALL capitalists work towards the goal of market dominance, I said MANY.  Your rejection of this assertion in the form of a general rule is meaningless, since I never said it was a general rule. 

All it takes is one bad capitalist to negatively influence the whole system.  When one person plays dirty, everyone else is forced to do the same in order to compete.  Another way in which pure capitalism is much like communism.

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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Read and learn [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #2073692 - 11/05/03 02:55 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:

Proverbs 20;13 Whoever stops his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

28;27  He who gives to the poor shall not lack, but he who hides his eyes shall have many a curse.
 




:thumbup: :heartpump:


--------------------

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Read and learn [Re: afoaf]
    #2073714 - 11/05/03 03:01 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
I didn't say free market capitalism inevitably
leads towards monopolies.



I never claimed that you did.

Quote:

I know how much you'd wish that I had said
that considering how much you love playing
your monopoly card.



That's a pretty weak dodge, care to address the request or will you continue to do the 'bob and weave.' If you cannot answer the request, please exhibit the intellectual fortitude to admit it.

Quote:

If you can't differentiate between 'lead towards
monopoly' and 'invariably create monopoly'
then I think that this conversation has reached
an impasse.



I have no problem understanding the difference. You apparently however have a problem understanding what I stated or responding to a simple request.

...
Quote:

to gain larger and larger
pieces of the pie.



Do you fail to realize that the 'pie' is not static, that it grows and grows? Economics is not a zero sum game.

Quote:

I'm still only left with a choice between OSH
and Home Depot instead of the variety of local
hardware stores and lumber yards that have all
but vanished from my town.



Ask yourself, why have they vanished. Some reasons, smaller selections, higher prices, inneficient business practices. The part of the equation you seem to ignore is that these large chains would not exist if they were not giving customers what they want. It is the customers as much as the management who have made these businesses successful.

Quote:

note, costs, convenience and quality are not
markedly better at these warehouse outlets.



Note, I don't know if you can see from where your head is stuck but the behavior of customers is ample evidence that you are wrong. Why would someone start shopping at another store if there was nothing to be gained by abandoning the vendors he frequented before?

Quote:

there may never be a true monopoly, but the
choices available to me in the marketplace have
shrunk markedly and will continue to do so.



I wonder where you live and how long you have lived, because I find the exact opposite situation. I have much more choices now than my parents did, there are more products and more price competition.

Quote:

the rich get richer while the poor get poorer



The poor are getting poorer? Could the poor of 50 years ago have afforded television, cable TV, VCRs, DVDs and automobiles? How many of the poor 100 years ago had indoor plumbing, central heating and air conditioning?

Quote:

Most American families have seen their level of
well-being stagnate over the last quarter-century--
and that's even before the current economic slowdown.
Between 1973 and 1998, the real hourly wages of the
average American worker fell by 9 percent. (This
contrasts with the preceding quarter-century, 1947 to
1973, when real wages grew by 75 percent). Indeed, in
1998 the average inflation-adjusted hourly wage was
about the same as in 1967. As workers' wages have
stagnated, economic inequality has worsened. In 1974
the richest 5 percent of American families earned 14.8
percent of total U.S. income; by 1998 their share had
risen to 20.7 percent.




During the same periods, government meddling in the economy increased, taxes increased, regulations increased, the number of government offices and officers increased, the monetary supply has increased, the number of behavior that have been criminalized has increased and government debt has increased. Perhaps, we have a smoking gun... (if you are not too blind to see it).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Read and learn [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #2073778 - 11/05/03 03:28 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Proverbs 20;13 Whoever stops his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

28;27 He who gives to the poor shall not lack, but he who hides his eyes shall have many a curse.



How about "Thou shall not steal", which is what the government does when it takes from those who work and give to those who do not. Or is that OK because it reminds you of Robin Hood?

Charity is the way to go.
Theft is not.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Read and learn [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2073820 - 11/05/03 03:47 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

DoctorJ writes:

even pinksharkmark once admitted that historically, all capitalist systems have devolved into communism eventually.

Stop lying about what I said. Nowhere at any point in time, in this forum or any other, have I ever said any such thing. Get your facts straight or shut the fuck up.

All it takes is one bad capitalist to negatively influence the whole system. When one person plays dirty, everyone else is forced to do the same in order to compete.

Untrue. If one person breaks the law, that does not mean that every other player in the system must break the law.

Another way in which pure capitalism is much like communism.

There are no ways in which Laissez-faire Capitalism is like Communism. None. The two are polar opposites. You either have an incomplete grasp of Capitalism, an incomplete grasp of Communism, or both.

pinky


--------------------

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