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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Evidence for Consciousness after Death * 1
    #20678320 - 10/09/14 04:37 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I usually don't post stuff like this but I found this article interesting.

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/Study-On-Near-Death-Experiences-Sheds-Light-On-Consciousness-After-Death

What say you? Could our consciousness survive death if only for a while?


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: blingbling]
    #20678347 - 10/09/14 05:09 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Except for the fact that a consensual definition of consciousness is missing in science and in culture at large, I maintain that consciousness is a referential process - the mental formations from association and sensation mix making new mental forms/ experiences and the memory traces of them. {sense of self}

That said, the supporting hardware for this phenomenon is our brain. Without the brain operating, there is no sense of self.

when the brain is restarted, it passes through states of mind similar to psychedelic or dissociative which supports reconstructive memory over a plastic sense of time. {includes restarted from sleep or from flatline}

i.e. nothing happened (in the subject's mind during flat lining) even though the subjects claim experience - it is most likely that the experience occurred instantaneously and reconstructively upon emerging from NDE or anaesthesia.

what is interesting is the reports of verified details in the room during supposed OBE during flat line.

if nothing was happening in the brain - mind - what could this be?

Here the Randi challenge comes into play, since I do think there are mind to mind transfers possible {sorry OC}- because I do think that esp is a subtle and mostly unused sense (unreliable at best) - so my explanation is that the most amazing OBE is reconstructed in a flash from momentary and subtle esp input from others awake during the event who are also at peak excitation (broadcasting) during the moments of resuscitation of the subject {who is at peak receptivity -as in some psychedelic states}.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #20678352 - 10/09/14 05:14 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

near death =/= death

these don't make sense:
'study on people nearly infected by ebola sheds light on dangers of the disease'
'investigation of women who almost got pregnant gives insight into 3rd trimester'

so why should death/near-death be any different?

Edited by White Beard (10/09/14 05:23 AM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: blingbling]
    #20678618 - 10/09/14 08:13 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Could our consciousness survive death if only for a while?




No.

http://web.randi.org/swift/no-this-study-is-not-evidence-for-life-after-death


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: blingbling]
    #20678959 - 10/09/14 10:05 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I am not saying I advocate it, but Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff's Orch OR theory of consciousness supports the possibility of all sorts of things, including OBE's, NDE's, and the disembodiment of the quantum state of consciousness after death, which does not have to be destroyed simply because microtubules shut down.

The upshot is that the quantum state inside of microtubules resonates to a degree that consciousness can be explained by it, following from Roger Penrose's "twistor" theory of quantum gravity.  Obviously all very speculative, and this is just for fun.  IF anyone wants to read about it, here are a couple of links (with synopses):


http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/

The concept of consciousness existing outside the body (e.g. near-death and out-of body experiences, NDE/OBEs, or after death, indicative of a 'soul') is a staple of religious traditions, but shunned by conventional science because of an apparent lack of rational explanation. However conventional science based entirely on classical physics cannot account for normal in-the-brain consciousness. The Penrose-Hameroff 'Orch OR' model is a quantum approach to consciousness, connecting brain processes (microtubule quantum computations inside neurons) to fluctuations in fundamental spacetime geometry, the fine scale structure of the universe. Recent evidence for significant quantum coherence in warm biological systems, scale-free dynamics and end-of-life brain activity support the notion of a quantum basis for consciousness which could conceivably exist independent of biology in various scalar planes in spacetime geometry. Sir Roger Penrose does not necessarily endorse such proposals which relate to his ideas in physics. Based on Orch OR, we offer a scientific hypothesis for a 'quantum soul'.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Penrose:

Penrose has written books on the connection between fundamental physics and human (or animal) consciousness. In The Emperor's New Mind (1989), he argues that known laws of physics are inadequate to explain the phenomenon of consciousness. Penrose proposes the characteristics this new physics may have and specifies the requirements for a bridge between classical and quantum mechanics (what he calls correct quantum gravity). Penrose uses a variant of Turing's halting theorem to demonstrate that a system can be deterministic without being algorithmic. (For example, imagine a system with only two states, ON and OFF. If the system's state is ON when a given Turing machine halts and OFF when the Turing machine does not halt, then the system's state is completely determined by the machine; nevertheless, there is no algorithmic way to determine whether the Turing machine stops.)

Penrose believes that such deterministic yet non-algorithmic processes may come into play in the quantum mechanical wave function reduction, and may be harnessed by the brain. He argues that the present computer is unable to have intelligence because it is an algorithmically deterministic system. He argues against the viewpoint that the rational processes of the mind are completely algorithmic and can thus be duplicated by a sufficiently complex computer. This contrasts with supporters of strong artificial intelligence, who contend that thought can be simulated algorithmically. He bases this on claims that consciousness transcends formal logic because things such as the insolubility of the halting problem and Gödel's incompleteness theorem prevent an algorithmically based system of logic from reproducing such traits of human intelligence as mathematical insight. These claims were originally espoused by the philosopher John Lucas of Merton College, Oxford.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20679052 - 10/09/14 10:31 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Here's an interesting article on legitimate scientific evidence supporting the Orch OR model, warm quantum coherence and the ties to EEG.  (Once again, this is all just for fun).

http://www.kurzweilai.net/discovery-of-quantum-vibrations-in-microtubules-inside-brain-neurons-corroborates-controversial-20-year-old-theory-of-consciousness


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20679193 - 10/09/14 10:59 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Positing a hypothesis (not a theory) with zero evidence for a disembodied consciousness is as far from science as one can get.

Want to hear my theory on how Leprechauns store gold in rainbows?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20679233 - 10/09/14 11:09 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Like I said, it was just for fun.  It would be a misrepresentation to say there is zero evidence, however:

Quote:


After 20 years of skeptical criticism, “the evidence now clearly supports Orch OR,” continue Hameroff and Penrose. “Our new paper updates the evidence, clarifies Orch OR quantum bits, or “qubits,” as helical pathways in microtubule lattices, rebuts critics, and reviews 20 testable predictions of Orch OR published in 1998 — of these, six are confirmed and none refuted.”




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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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OfflineUzziel
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #20679235 - 10/09/14 11:09 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I don't see evidence to support life after death. That seems redundant. How can you be consciously alive if you're dead? It's completely contradictory to what it means to be alive.

I think these people have too much jesus in their heart.

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OfflineJohnny Depp
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20679396 - 10/09/14 11:45 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

/

Edited by Johnny Depp (12/20/14 03:10 AM)

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OfflinePed
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: blingbling]
    #20680103 - 10/09/14 02:22 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

The problem with so-called "evidence" of non-corporeal consciousness is that it is impossible to review and repeat in an appropriately scientific fashion.  If consciousness proceeds non-physically, then it is fundamentally barred from observation, measurement, or evidence-based accounting.  The only "evidence" available is anecdotal in nature, cannot be tested in a scientific manner, and has innumerable explanations which do not invoke the supernatural.

Non-corporeal consciousness therefore does not exist in a practical sense.  Whether or not it actually exists is not especially important if there is no evidence for its existence, because a belief in things for which there is no evidence is inherently problematic and does not serve human beings.

AWARE Results Finally Published – No Evidence of NDE


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Johnny Depp]
    #20680509 - 10/09/14 03:52 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Johnny Depp said:

There comes a time in a man's life when he starts quoting himself.  ...


here I go!
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
so my explanation is that the most amazing OBE is reconstructed in a flash from momentary and subtle esp input from others awake during the event who are also at peak excitation (broadcasting) during the moments of resuscitation of the subject {who is at peak receptivity -as in some psychedelic states}.




--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlinesmiggert
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20681347 - 10/09/14 06:58 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

There may not be life after death, however there is at least life during death, and this event will be the most massive in your life.

You will never know the boundaries of your mind and subconscious not even if you track it on every path, so deep does it go, and there awaits you in death things you have not thought nor dreamed of.


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Even sleepers are workers and collaborators in what goes on in the Universe.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: smiggert]
    #20681396 - 10/09/14 07:09 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Unless you get that bullet to the back of the head. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineviktor
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: blingbling] * 3
    #20681987 - 10/09/14 09:31 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

There isn't even evidence for death existing. All we do is look at dead things and conclude that they've died.

There's just as much reason to believe that the physical world is a projection of consciousness as there is to believe that consciousness is created by the brain. If not more.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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OfflinePed
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
    #20682156 - 10/09/14 10:39 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> There's just as much reason to believe that the physical world is a projection of consciousness as there is to believe that consciousness is created by the brain. If not more.

It's definitely true that our experience of the physical world is a projection of consciousness, but there is exactly zero evidence indicating that the physical world is involved in any kind of dependent relationship with consciousness. 

The physical universe can exist apart from consciousness, but consciousness cannot exist apart from the physical universe.  That much is abundantly clear.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20682324 - 10/09/14 11:32 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Can chocolate exist apart from peanut butter?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20682347 - 10/09/14 11:37 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

but consciousness cannot exist apart from the physical universe.

abundantly clear?  how so?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineviktor
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20682673 - 10/10/14 01:52 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
The physical universe can exist apart from consciousness, but consciousness cannot exist apart from the physical universe.  That much is abundantly clear.




It isn't abundantly clear to me - I experience consciousness apart from a physical universe most nights when I dream.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor] * 2
    #20682691 - 10/10/14 02:04 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

What is 'matter' but an attitude to the sensations around us? We say it is 'solid' and 'out there' and since saying that modern physics has shown it is probably neither. So there's no evidence for 'matter'. It's just an attitude we have.

In my personal experience it seems the mind/brain is a co-creator of what the world is. Your state of mind actually changes what reality is. Very clear with psychedelic use, slightly less clear with day to day living in different states of mind. I don't mean, say, you could will it into anything, it's just that the very nature of it is determined by your state of mind. It turns into one bizarre biatch on mushrooms in ways you could never expect and in ways that can't be just a confused brain.


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My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Offlineviktor
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: circastes]
    #20682703 - 10/10/14 02:12 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Agree with that. Ironically, as a fellow schizophrenic, I think it's easier to see this sort of thing with our condition.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
    #20682819 - 10/10/14 04:14 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

How do I join the schizo club?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20682828 - 10/10/14 04:30 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Could our consciousness survive death if only for a while?




No.

http://web.randi.org/swift/no-this-study-is-not-evidence-for-life-after-death




Yeah, I had many of the same thoughts expressed in this article when I read the article I posted earlier, but its super fun to play pretend :gameover:


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #20683110 - 10/10/14 08:01 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
How do I join the schizo club?



Weed and speed.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: circastes]
    #20683414 - 10/10/14 10:08 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Don't really like either that much. I'm out I guess.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleTropism
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20685398 - 10/10/14 06:25 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Want to hear my theory on how Leprechauns store gold in rainbows?




I don't know how you guys let gems like this go by!

Yes please, I very much would. :popcorn:

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Tropism]
    #20685880 - 10/10/14 08:30 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not sure you would understand as it is highly complex and involves quantum mechanics and transmutation.


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Offlinesmiggert
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20686035 - 10/10/14 09:11 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Unless you get that bullet to the back of the head. :haha:




I had thought about that and its one of my main problems...


--------------------
Even sleepers are workers and collaborators in what goes on in the Universe.

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OfflinePed
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20689291 - 10/11/14 03:43 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> abundantly clear?  how so?

The substrate of consciousness exists within and throughout the physical universe.  There is no consciousness without sense perception and cognition.  Both of these occur in dependence upon input.  This input originates within the physical universe.  Because this is true, consciousness cannot exist apart from the physical universe.


>> I experience consciousness apart from a physical universe most nights when I dream.

When asleep and dreaming, the content of our dreams is reconstituted information which had its ultimate origins in the physical universe.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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OfflinePed
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20689341 - 10/11/14 03:52 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> I'm not sure you would understand as it is highly complex and involves quantum mechanics and transmutation.

After all these years, I've come to understand that I've totally misunderstood you.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20689532 - 10/11/14 04:26 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Progress! :cookiemonster:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20689832 - 10/11/14 05:44 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> abundantly clear?  how so?

The substrate of consciousness exists within and throughout the physical universe.  There is no consciousness without sense perception and cognition.  Both of these occur in dependence upon input.  This input originates within the physical universe.  Because this is true, consciousness cannot exist apart from the physical universe.








All you know is the physical universe.  How could you know what might be beyond that?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinePed
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20689844 - 10/11/14 05:47 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> All you know is the physical universe.  How could you know what might be beyond that?

I'm not sure I understand how this contradicts my point, or underscores a divergence in our views.  Indeed, it's precisely because it is impossible to know the unknowable that any idea or line of reasoning in pursuit of the unknowable is basically meaningless.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20689912 - 10/11/14 06:04 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I agree it's meaningless to speculate on the unknown but isn't that just what you do when you say you know that consciousness only exists in the physical universe?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineviktor
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20689987 - 10/11/14 06:23 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
How do I join the schizo club?




All you have to do is "lose touch with reality", which usually means that you first become aware that there's more to things than the merely apparent and then get severely disturbed by it.

You may already be a high-functioning member.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor] * 1
    #20690000 - 10/11/14 06:27 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

cool, I'm back in. :cool:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20690042 - 10/11/14 06:39 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> I agree it's meaningless to speculate on the unknown but isn't that just what you do when you say you know that consciousness only exists in the physical universe?

The assertion was that consciousness cannot exist apart from the physical universe upon which it depends to maintain its phenomenal unfolding.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690048 - 10/11/14 06:40 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Right and i'm wondering how you can be sure of that?  Do you/we know what consciousness even is? 


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20690071 - 10/11/14 06:46 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Here is where most people seem to miss the boat: consciousness is a property of complex biology, it is not a thing unto itself.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20690103 - 10/11/14 06:54 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> Right and i'm wondering how you can be sure of that?  Do you/we know what consciousness even is?

Within the context of what is knowable and measurable, consciousness is adequately defined as that which perceives, recalls, discerns, and creatively interprets information within the unfolding of a subjective awareness.  That which knows and perceives is consciousness, while that which does not know or perceive is not consciousness.

Each of these parameters depends upon the physical universe for its existence.  We cannot perceive without an object to perceive; we cannot recall apart from prior perception, and we cannot discern or creatively interpret apart from phenomena to discern between and extrapolate meaning from.  Taken together, all of these things constitute the sum total of subjective experience, and each of these dependent factors belongs to the physical universe.  Therefore, consciousness does not arise independently of the physical universe.

If you try to imagine your consciousness continuing beyond the continuation of the universe, you immediately find the contemplation untenable.  If you use your imagination to delete the physical universe from the equation, you find that you are imagining a formless black void, or some kind of white or grey expanse.  All of these things are something, however, in that their origins are external to consciousness.  This implies external phenomenon, which turn implies a physical universe.

The idea that consciousness can exist apart from the physical universe is theoretically inconceivable, and fundamentally untestable.  For this reason, it is a bogus idea not deserving of our attention.


>> Here is where most people seem to miss the boat: consciousness is a property of complex biology, it is not a thing unto itself.



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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690200 - 10/11/14 07:18 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

the physical universe contains more than what is currently measured and observed....


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690207 - 10/11/14 07:19 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> the physical universe contains more than what is currently measured and observed....

This pertains to the subject at hand because...?


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690242 - 10/11/14 07:32 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> Right and i'm wondering how you can be sure of that?  Do you/we know what consciousness even is?

Within the context of what is knowable and measurable, consciousness is adequately defined as that which perceives, recalls, discerns, and creatively interprets information within the unfolding of a subjective awareness.  That which knows and perceives is consciousness, while that which does not know or perceive is not consciousness.

The idea that consciousness can exist apart from the physical universe is theoretically inconceivable, and fundamentally untestable.  For this reason, it is a bogus idea not deserving of our attention.


>> Here is where most people seem to miss the boat: consciousness is a property of complex biology, it is not a thing unto itself.




Hmmmmm....The more you know, the more you realize, how little you truly know.

You said your response was within the context of what is currently knowable and measurable and then you sum it all up with the comment that its a bogus idea that consciousness can exist from your physical body (which in itself, is a personal observable universe unto you)

Just because you don't remember deciding to be born and manifest through the love of your parents, does not mean it wasn't prepared in some fashion outside of your current limited understanding of the physical universe.

I say there is more that we do not know, than what we have currently retained about this subject.

There are ancient Native American beliefs that claim that the parents and children would make agreements in the spirit, our higher selves, convening & deciding ahead of time, that new children brought to the family are here to teach and assist us in our growth as we are to raise them in a way that they may do the same.


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


Edited by treesniper119 (10/11/14 07:42 PM)

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690320 - 10/11/14 07:51 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> Hmmmmm....The more you know, the more you realize, how little you truly know.

Yes, this is not a novel idea, nor is it especially profound.


>> Just because you don't remember deciding to be born and manifest through the love of your parents. Does not mean it wasn't prepared in some fashion outside of your current limited understanding of the physical universe.

Implicit in this assertion is that consciousness precedes the development of the central nervous system.  There is no evidence to suggest that consciousness exists or can exist apart from the central nervous system, and there is plenty of evidence indicating that consciousness is and has always been inseparable from the central nervous system.



>> I say there is more that we do not know than what we have currently retained.

It's definitely true that there are more discoveries waiting than discoveries already made.  This is not evidence for anything supernatural, nor does this recognition necessarily imply anything supernatural.


>> There are ancient Native American beliefs

These words do not validate any words that come after.


>> that claim that the parents and children would make agreements in the spirit, our higher selves, convening & deciding ahead of time, that new children brought to the family are here to teach and assist us in our growth as we are to raise them in a way that they may do the same.

This is a nice sentiment.  That's all it is.


--------------------


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690359 - 10/11/14 07:59 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

<<This is not evidence for anything supernatural, nor does this recognition necessarily imply anything supernatural.


There in lies the issue, you assume that which has not been discovered is supernatural, and seperate from the "known boundaries" of the physical universe that you have described, only until you measure it, only then it is obvious to you, only then does it leave the realm pseudo science into mainstream science, and only then do you proclaim that this is how it has always been.


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20690367 - 10/11/14 08:01 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Here is where most people seem to miss the boat: consciousness is a property of complex biology, it is not a thing unto itself.




As far as we know that's true. But I would never make a definitive statement about what I don't know.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690379 - 10/11/14 08:04 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

treesniper119 said:
<<This is not evidence for anything supernatural, nor does this recognition necessarily imply anything supernatural.


There in lies the issue, you assume that which has not been discovered is supernatural, and seperate from the "known boundaries" of the physical universe that you have described, only until you measure it, only then it is obvious to you, only then does it leave the realm pseudo science into mainstream science, and only then do you proclaim that this is how it has always been.




That still does not make something without evidence a reality.  It just makes it a possibility along the lines of "anything is possible however unlikely" .


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20690408 - 10/11/14 08:12 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

And there is a world of a difference between telling others that its an all around bogus idea of life before or after death being possible and that one should not waste time thinking about it.....all the while starting along the lines of "with respect to our current rate of understanding of the subject at hand being limited"

a world of a difference...


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690421 - 10/11/14 08:14 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> There in lies the issue, you assume that which has not been discovered is supernatural

If it exists and is waiting to be discovered, the multiverse is not supernatural.  Therefore I do not assume that which has not been discovered is supernatural.

Consciousness emerges from a series of complex electrochemical reactions.  We know this is true because we can observe electrochemical activity occurring together with the activity of consciousness using an fMRI machine.  At the present time, the evidence indicates that consciousness is confined to the electrochemical activity of the central nervous system.  Consciousness arises together with a central nervous system in all observed cases, increases in sophistication together with the sophistication of the central nervous system involved, changes in direct response to imposed neurochemical or structural modifications, degrades together with synaptic degradation, and finally ceases all detectable operation together with the cessation of the processes and materials of the central nervous system.

This is the evidence which compels us to understand consciousness as having biochemical origins and foundations.  It is a natural phenomenon occurring within the parameters set forth by the laws of physics, as are all phenomena.  There is no evidence compelling us to understand consciousness differently, and there is certainly not any evidence for any supernatural definition of consciousness.  Belief in non-physical consciousness is not valid, because believing in things for which there is no evidence is not valid.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690432 - 10/11/14 08:16 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

It's worth thinking about if you like to speculate on unknowns but not worth making any assertive claims about unless you have the evidence. 

Outside of that is opinion and everyone here has one.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690436 - 10/11/14 08:17 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> There in lies the issue, you assume that which has not been discovered is supernatural

If it exists and is waiting to be discovered, the multiverse is not supernatural.  Therefore I do not assume that which has not been discovered is supernatural.

Consciousness emerges from a series of complex electrochemical reactions.  We know this is true because we can observe electrochemical activity occurring together with the activity of consciousness using an fMRI machine.  At the present time, the evidence indicates that consciousness is confined to the electrochemical activity of the central nervous system.  Consciousness arises together with a central nervous system in all observed cases, increases in sophistication together with the sophistication of the central nervous system involved, changes in direct response to imposed neurochemical or structural modifications, degrades together with synaptic degradation, and finally ceases all detectable operation together with the cessation of the processes and materials of the central nervous system shut down.

This is the evidence which compels us to understand consciousness as having biochemical origins and foundations.  It is a natural phenomenon occurring within the parameters set forth by the laws of physics, as are all phenomena.  There is no evidence compelling us to understand consciousness differently, and there is certainly not any evidence for any supernatural definition of consciousness.  Belief in non-physical consciousness is not valid, because believing in things for which there is no evidence is not valid.




I never said the multiverse, however, you say that NDE and OBE are all chemical reactions based on this single issue, you have viewed it through certain technology, respective to your era, and in your understanding of these things, you are ultimately limited at this point and time.

To sum up to everyone here, as you have, that it is just plain ol "not possible and bogus to waste time on such ideas", is appalling rubbish.


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690442 - 10/11/14 08:18 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

At the present time, the evidence indicates

That was my point Ped, you were drawing conclusions beyond the above statement imo.

For instance there could be a type of consciousness beyond our knowledge of the physical universe.  Unlikely perhaps but within the realm of possibility. So... we leave that be.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20690444 - 10/11/14 08:19 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> Outside of that is opinion and everyone here has one.

As an additive contemplation, can you or anyone think of any really-existing scenario, past or present, in which someone's opinion was meaningful and worthwhile apart from its objective verification?


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690452 - 10/11/14 08:21 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Well no that's what I was getting at. Opinion without evidence is worth almost nothing.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690462 - 10/11/14 08:23 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Ped said: The idea that consciousness can exist apart from the physical universe is theoretically inconceivable, and fundamentally untestable.  For this reason, it is a bogus idea not deserving of our attention.

To sum up to everyone here, as you have, that it is just plain ol "not possible and bogus to waste time on such ideas", is appalling rubbish.


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690465 - 10/11/14 08:25 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

What I'd rather see from you is some evidence that we make choices before or after life. Or that there is any consciousness there. This being generally a evidence based debate forum.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20690483 - 10/11/14 08:32 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> What I'd rather see from you is some evidence that we make choices before or after life. Or that there is any consciousness there. This being generally a evidence based debate forum.

:thumbup:

Even if this were not an evidence-based debate forum, still any belief in unsupported notions is inherently problematic, in that it causes us to correspond with reality according to how we think it is as opposed to how it verifiably is.  Even if it's actually true that consciousness exists or can exist apart from the central nervous system, apart from evidence this idea is not worth interacting with outside the environs of speculative musing, and doing so only causes confusion.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690496 - 10/11/14 08:35 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

There is no evidence one way or the other, merely "strong feelings."  Maybe just chalk it up to we don't fuckin' know, and leave it at that.

Quote:

"Intelligence evolves when the occult and magical become the objective-scientific." --Timothy Leary




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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20690498 - 10/11/14 08:36 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

You clearly don't see how futile an attempt it is to quantify the existence of something that many know is there, only waiting to be discovered with technology not yet built!
Your measurements are based on your access to the technology which will allow you to observe it, some would claim their physical technology is more fine tuned than others and are aware of things not clearly seen by those critics with the limited or atrophied physical technology required to operate at such a state of being, and so you rely on what you know, propagating incorrect theories and laws based upon inaccurate data, waiting for the invention to reveal to you what was considered pseudo science at one time, is now observable quantifiable reality.


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690505 - 10/11/14 08:37 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

If he's believing in a supernatural god why doesn't he have the courage to come out with it? 

I guess because it's a matter of belief and opinion and otherwise indefensible.  What other reason could there be?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20690516 - 10/11/14 08:39 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
If he's believing in a supernatural god why doesn't he have the courage to come out with it? 

I guess because it's a matter of belief and opinion and otherwise indefensible.  What other reason could there be?



Quote:

treesniper119 said:
You clearly don't see how futile an attempt it is to quantify the existence of something that many know is there, only waiting to be discovered with technology not yet built!
Your measurements are based on your access to the technology which will allow you to observe it, some would claim their physical technology is more fine tuned than others and are aware of things not clearly seen by those critics with the limited or atrophied physical technology required to operate at such a state of being, and so you rely on what you know, propagating incorrect theories and laws based upon inaccurate data, waiting for the invention to reveal to you what was considered pseudo science at one time, is now observable quantifiable reality.



Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

There is no evidence one way or the other, merely "strong feelings."  Maybe just chalk it up to we don't fuckin' know, and leave it at that.

Quote:

"Intelligence evolves when the occult and magical become the objective-scientific." --Timothy Leary







exactly


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690518 - 10/11/14 08:40 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> You clearly don't see how futile an attempt it is to quantify the existence of something that many know is there, only waiting to be discovered with technology not yet built.

If someone knows something is there, it means it has been discovered.  If something has not been discovered, it means we don't know it's there.  Someone who says they know something exists before its existence has been discovered is not speaking coherently or rationally.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #20690534 - 10/11/14 08:44 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Here is where most people seem to miss the boat: consciousness is a property of complex biology, it is not a thing unto itself.




I don't see how you can constantly take the piss out of people for their unsupported beliefs and then drop a clanger like this. "consciousness is a property of complex biology, it is not a thing unto itself" - you have no way of knowing if this assertion is true and not the opposite of the truth.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690539 - 10/11/14 08:46 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

You clearly don't see how futile an attempt it is to quantify the existence of something that many know is there, only waiting to be discovered with technology not yet built!

The trouble here is you don't know except by faith.  You believe, I can accept that but people believe totally wrong things every day and will even kill you if you dispute their belief.  Look at the Mid east or early christianity.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690554 - 10/11/14 08:49 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

/

Edited by Johnny Depp (12/20/14 03:12 AM)

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Offlinetreesniper119
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690560 - 10/11/14 08:50 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> You clearly don't see how futile an attempt it is to quantify the existence of something that many know is there, only waiting to be discovered with technology not yet built.

If someone knows something is there, it means it has been discovered.  If something has not been discovered, it means we don't know it's there.  Someone who says they know something exists before its existence has been discovered is not speaking coherently or rationally.




Just because i have discovered something does not mean that you have, not that you have learned of its existence or how to even begin searching for that matter, nor have you come across the discovery yourself as you would know it if you did, and you would know that this is how it always has been from that point on.

You only subscribe to information until more recent accurate data presents itself...

and so you are limited in your understanding of things pertaining to the physical universe and all of its aspects therein.

Each observer is limited to his own rate of observation.


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
    #20690563 - 10/11/14 08:51 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> I don't see how you can constantly take the piss out of people for their unsupported beliefs and then drop a clanger like this. "consciousness is a property of complex biology, it is not a thing unto itself" - you have no way of knowing if this assertion is true and not the opposite of the truth.

The evidence indicates that consciousness is a property of complex biology.  Assertions to the contrary require superior evidence.  In ten thousand years of human history, no such evidence has been found, nor is there any indication such evidence is forthcoming.  It is therefore reasonable to say that consciousness is a property of complex biology, and it is unreasonable to say that consciousness exists apart from complex biology.

The notion of consciousness as complex biology is supported by the evidence.  The notion of consciousness as mystical energy is not supported by the evidence.  These two notions are not on equal footing, because one is supported and the other is unsupported.  Unsupported views do not withstand supported views.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690593 - 10/11/14 08:58 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> I don't see how you can constantly take the piss out of people for their unsupported beliefs and then drop a clanger like this. "consciousness is a property of complex biology, it is not a thing unto itself" - you have no way of knowing if this assertion is true and not the opposite of the truth.

The evidence indicates that consciousness is a property of complex biology.  Assertions to the contrary require superior evidence.  In ten thousand years of human history, no such evidence has been found, nor is there any indication such evidence is forthcoming.  It is therefore reasonable to say that consciousness is a property of complex biology, and it is unreasonable to say that consciousness exists apart from complex biology.

The notion of consciousness as complex biology is supported by the evidence.  The notion of consciousness as mystical energy is not supported by the evidence.  These two notions are not on equal footing, because one is supported and the other is unsupported.  Unsupported views do not withstand supported views.





materialistic bullshit science that lacks the true indications, meanings and measure of reality within its quantifiable limits....
only when finally observed, through proper technologies, is it then believed by the observer who previously misunderstood.


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690607 - 10/11/14 09:01 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

lacks the true indications, meanings and measure of reality

Please share what these are so we know what you're referring to.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20690622 - 10/11/14 09:05 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

it is well known and acknowledged by many posters here that we do not know the whole or even a major part of what is being discussed, and yet you ask for evidence and refuse the idea that physical technologies and fine tuned senses can extrapolate data through other means of information


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690625 - 10/11/14 09:07 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I don't refuse the idea.  It's possible but if it cannot be demonstrated then it's not worth debating here because it also could be the result of lying or delusional thinking.  Crazies abound.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20690644 - 10/11/14 09:10 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

you want a demonstration?
go back to my first post and start all over and then




(See my signature)


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690663 - 10/11/14 09:14 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I've read your posts they don't demonstrate what you think they do. :lol: Cut the crap.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20690699 - 10/11/14 09:24 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Prove to me that you didn't choose to come into this reality.
If your going to base your proof on the end result of a natural process (like being born) and you current extremely limited physical experiences have not shown you other wise, where do you look? consciousness before birth? past lives? would you like an example of that as well?

http://www.shroomery.org/11875/Time-And-Time-Again


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690712 - 10/11/14 09:26 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I can't know if I choose to be here before birth.  At least I've seen no evidence so I have to discount it from my decision making and stick to what I can observe.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690713 - 10/11/14 09:26 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> only when finally observed, through proper technologies, is it then believed by the observer who previously misunderstood.

If your means of measurement and observation are strictly esoteric, and if your "technologies" are available only to you, it means that your conclusions are unreliable to everyone except you, and it means that you should probably doubt your own reliability.


>> it is well known and acknowledged by many posters here

This is the argumentum ad populum fallacy.


>> that we do not know the whole or even a major part of what is being discussed, and yet you ask for evidence

If you cannot furnish evidence to substantiate your assertions, your assertions are not credible and will be treated as such.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690731 - 10/11/14 09:30 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> only when finally observed, through proper technologies, is it then believed by the observer who previously misunderstood.

If your means of measurement and observation are strictly esoteric, and if your "technologies" are available only to you, it means that your conclusions are unreliable to everyone except you, and it means that you should probably doubt your own reliability.


>> it is well known and acknowledged by many posters here

This is the argumentum ad populum fallacy.


>> that we do not know the whole or even a major part of what is being discussed, and yet you ask for evidence

If you cannot furnish evidence to substantiate your assertions, your assertions are not credible and will be treated as such.




you seek evidence pertaining to your own state of observation to which your reality is projected.

(by your own definition that reality is most certainly projected)

and it wasn't a fallacy, it was relevant, as you yourself, admitted this very fact, that we are limited in our understanding of the topics being discussed and only have limited data from what has currently been observed:facepalm3:


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690736 - 10/11/14 09:31 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20690742 - 10/11/14 09:33 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
:lol:



:cheers:


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690750 - 10/11/14 09:36 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I'd maybe cut back on the drinking if that's what you mean. :smile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690811 - 10/11/14 09:49 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> you seek evidence pertaining to your own state of observation to which your reality is projected.

This is a circular reasoning fallacy, because it asserts that the evidence for your point of view is contingent upon its acceptance.


>> you yourself, admitted this very fact, that we are limited in our understanding of the topics being discussed and only have limited data from what has currently been observed

The mere existence of unknowns is not evidence for the bold assertion that you have exclusive access to unknowns.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20690831 - 10/11/14 09:55 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> you seek evidence pertaining to your own state of observation to which your reality is projected.

This is a circular reasoning fallacy, because it asserts that the evidence for your point of view is contingent upon its acceptance.


>> you yourself, admitted this very fact, that we are limited in our understanding of the topics being discussed and only have limited data from what has currently been observed

The mere existence of unknowns is not evidence for the bold assertion that you have exclusive access to unknowns.




That's a BS fallacy example, your rate of observation is entirely dependent on your physical and artificial technologies which we create or discover. You can not truly discover something that hasn't had all of its constituents defined either. I will go as far to tell you that everything you think that you know is flawed and missing parts.


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690874 - 10/11/14 10:05 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

What about you, is your thinking or what you think you know flawed or missing parts?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20690896 - 10/11/14 10:10 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

god,magic, and life after death used to be necessary to explain the amazing events and abilities of mind.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20691128 - 10/11/14 11:21 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Since i doubt you bothered to click the link and read the examples you asked for (you didn't respond), pertaining to the topic at hand, would you please address this?


                                                FORWARD
How does a mother know her child is in distress even when the child may be many miles away? What makes a chicken raised indoors all it's life run for cover when it sees a shadow of a hawk when its never seen one? Where does the bird get it's information on how to build a nest when it never built one? What makes animals run to higher ground an hour before a tsunami hits?

All animals, including humans, have instincts and intuitive behaviors. It is routinely passed off as just information hardwired into the brain after countless generations of successful repetitive tasks.

But when I was twenty I questioned that. What if it wasn't that at all. What if some of life's experiences are actually passed on to the following generation in some way we don't yet understand; and not just some vague collective memory but actual individual events - maybe tucked away deep in our subconscious coded somehow on the surface of certain proteins maybe, ready for quick retrieval in time of crises; a survival mechanism of sorts. Could this explain why some people under hypnosis mistakenly believed they have had a past life when actually they may have accessed an ancestral memory and thought it was their's? The Hopi tribe under the effects of peyote claim to have their ancestors communicate to them.

Could humans possess ancestral memories but during the evolutionary process loss the ability to access them as we developed language as a way to communicate? If this was true and if it could be accessed then this could have very profound anthropological and philosophical implications!

The following are preliminary studies done in the mid 1960's investigating the origins of human instincts and retrieval of ancestral memory using

O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine.

Using myself as a subject.

Unknown to me at this time a branch of our government had been working with this same chemical for ten years in ESP, paranormal, remote viewing and mind control experiments. One such operation now known to most Americans through the Freedom Of Information Act as MK-ULTRA and of course other operations that are still highly classified.


                                                Chapter One

                                    THAT ONE STEP BEYOND


It was February, 1961 and as a young boy of ten I never missed the television show "ONE STEP BEYOND"; a half hour show about true and unexplained stories of the paranormal kind. Scared the shit out of me every time! CREEPY! Unlike Twilight Zone these where true documented cases!

Let me give you an example.

Scene opens in a hospital:

A woman has had a high fever of 104 for three days when suddenly, in her delirium, she begins telling her doctor:

"My son just crashed his car into the red bridge! It's on fire!"

The doctor does not take this remark seriously until after hearing it over and over again for three hours and out of curiosity he calls the local sheriffs department and asked if there is such a bridge. The sheriff said there was and the doctor tells him what the woman said. Now the sheriff is curious and decides to drive out to the bridge fifteen miles out of town.

Seconds before he arrives a car approaching him in the other lane swerves to avoid a deer crossing the road. The car goes off the road, hits a bridge and catches fire. The sheriff arrives seconds later, pulls the unconscious man out of his vehicle, just in time to save his life. The man turns out to be the woman's son. (Cue eerie music.)
In another episode a man working a Saturday shift is hit on the head in a construction accident. He appears to be O.K. but when he gets home that evening he begins to have hallucinations about a devastating bombing attack on U.S. naval ships. He tries to convince his wife that something terrible is happening but she tells him that everything is fine and he needs to go to the hospital. It's Saturday December 6th, 1941.
Even at the age of ten I was already piecing together that all these paranormal events such as precognitive experiences, knowing something before it happens, always followed some kind of head trauma be it high fever, bump on the head, brain tumor ext...and remembering my mother commenting on just that.

She was heavily into anthropology at that time and wondered if this ESP, sixth sense, was some kind of survival mechanism that we once possessed in our evolutionary make up that has long ago been discarded do to the development of language. I was only ten at the time but I kind of knew exactly what she meant!

I always remembered that unexpected statement from my mother back in 1961. It's funny how someone can say a sentence off the top of their head and without ever realizing it end up changing the lives of more than 200,000 people many years down the line.
In one episode on a Tuesday night in February of 1961 their was no story line. Instead the host of the show took the whole staff down to Mexico to visit a shaman who could see visions and events taking place at a distant location (remote viewing) under the influence of a yet to be identified mushroom.

I was totally amazed when accompanying psychiatrists put this man and the host of the show John, who also participated as a test subject, through a myriad of tests.
Under the influence of the mushroom they could identify page numbers from a book opened randomly from someone in the next room, located lost items for local natives and saw clearly photos from a book blindfolded seeing only by touching the photo with their hands. The shaman could close his eyes and see events happening miles away.

(Does the military know about this?)
Wow! ESP abilities without head trauma!

As most children of the 1950's aspired to grow up to be an astronaut or a professional ball player that Tuesday night at the age of ten - and I remember this vividly - I made it one of my life's goal to identify this mushroom, find it and experiment with it myself one day.

Now for you consideration: A multi level short story about how one person's extraordinary abilities can be interpreted as being paranormal but when fully understood - not so  - called;

"The Man Who Saw The Future"

On an island 400 years ago lived an agricultural society of people who's origins date back to antiquity.

It seems that sixty thousand years ago a volcanic eruption caused the extinction of a particular plant that supplied a vital nutrient to these peoples diet; much like our Vitamin A, without it they eventually lost their vision.

Society progressed without vision. The four senses were all that were known; hearing, smelling, tasting and sense of touch. Their eyes were thought to be a sensitive touch organ used to detect pollutants in the air due to the watery reaction to some. Any memory or past down myths of people having something called sight were long ago lost.

They learned to navigate quite well by their acute sense of smell, touching and making audible clicking noises with their tongue then gauging the sound and textured echoes off nearby objects much like the way bats navigate.

One day a horticulturist from their village, searching in the jungles for new plants, came across a fruit bearing vine never before discovered. The chewed up remains of some of the fruit laying on the ground told him that the local animals used it as a food source and was non poisonousness. He tasted it himself and found it to be very sweet and carried some samples back with him for analyses.

While walking back his eyes began to feel very strange and it didn't take him long to figure out that he is having a reaction to the fruit and as he sat down on a log to wipe his eyes an unexplainable phenomenon occurred; Light!

Within minutes shapes and shadows became visual. The horticulturist became disorientated and stunned having never experiencing anything like this!

He sat watching shadows and shapes move about not knowing what he was experiencing and as the next hour past - shapes began to take on color.

Now it was becoming intoxicating. Even though he wasn't sure what was going on he began to feel that this was somewhat wonderful but when his hands drifted past his visual field he had an Ah Ah! moment. These shapes represent objects in front of him!

Overwhelmed; for the next two hours he just sat watching his hand as he slowly opened and closed it. Putting two and two together he taught himself how to see.

The horticulturist stayed at his campsite for weeks learning objects, watching the jungle and discovered that he could even navigate about without making clicking noises. However it took many walking into trees before he learned depth perception.

When he returned to his village, now with 20/20 vision, he began telling them of the magnificent discovery but found himself coming up short trying to find the right words to explain it to them. The villagers didn't understand any of what he was talking about but were more than amazed as he demonstrated the ability to tell the future.

Seeing his neighbor a half mile away coming back from a visit with relatives he told the villagers that Kilan would be here in ten minutes pulling behind him two new goats, a new cart full of chickens and his oldest sister carrying what looks to be an infant. In the opposite direction, about three quarters a mile away he could see the hunting party returning and went on to say that five minutes after Kilan's arrival the hunting party would be returning carrying four deer.

The villagers could not understand how he could possibility know such things. They could not smell them coming for the wind was in the wrong direction. They could not hear or click echo them for they were too far away but when his neighbor showed up with all who he predicted in tow and five minutes later the hunting party with four deer the villagers were awestruck.

Interpretive by the villagers this new fruit can help one know the future. It also gives the ability to transport ones self in some way to a distant location a half mile away and gathering information while at the very same time, with a slight movement of the head, be in another location three quarters of mile away in the opposite direction and know things there too. How can one be in two places at once gathering information in locations more than a mile apart?

He tried to explain that seeing was like reaching out long distances and touching in fine detail objects in those location but they could not grasp the concept.

Soon the Tribal Elders, the ones in power who ran this island, got wind of this plant being introduced to the villagers and quickly called a village meeting in which they proclaimed a band on this plant with severe penalties for possessing it saying it creates delusions and madness and borders on sorcery and has no medical or social value.

All the villagers with their blind blank stares, now frightened, said that they would oblige however an uneasiness came over the horticulturist when he caught a glimpse of the Tribal Elders - they didn't have blank stares - their eyes were shifting back and forth........

.............nervously looking at one another. The End

Post script - Figuring the people had a rite to decide for themselves to have vision or not the horticulturist ended up getting two years in a dungeon for distributing the plant to the villagers anyway.


                                                1969

                              The Man Who Saw The Past

Eight years later and now almost twenty years of age I had been working with psychoactive psilocybin mushrooms since 1967 having obtaining some samples from a friend at Brandies University.

The first two years of experimentation was establishing a dosage. There wasn't much information out there on this mushroom. It was first introduced to the western world only ten years prier through an article in the May 13th 1957 issue of Life magazine however not much more information came out after that. I did discover that it had a high tolerance build up so experimentation was limited to once every one or two months.

I started out with only one quarter dried gram of cubensis mushroom and progressed up one quarter gram every session. I'm glad I went this rout - it gave me the opportunity to adjust slowly. As any one who has taken the journey can attest  - it can be a wild ride!

At four grams plus I began to have profound effects. Effects lasted 7 hours.

(It was many years later when I found that the standard dosage taken by shaman to experience paranormal activity was 6 dried grams of mushrooms. The counter culture at this time were also using this as a hallucinogen however out on the street the standard dosage was only two grams ... three grams and you were considered "Tripping balls! - Still a fairly safe dosage.)

By the end of 1969 I was up to almost five grams and beginning to have some amazing results with age regression although it wasn't the direction I initially wanted to go, I just stumbled into it. I was hoping to experience ESP type abilities similar to what I saw on that show back in 1961. I experienced no such abilities whatsoever.
However during the last few sessions I discovered that under the influence of the mushrooms and in a relaxed state I could remember, vividly, things long forgotten.
Without the mushroom, like most people, I had memories as far back as being age five - and before then It gets diluted - sketchy at best - just bits and pieces.

Under the influence of the mushroom however I could remember everything crystal clear as it would unfold in front of me. But I could remember only as far back to some traumatic event in my life (Usually just being frightened as a child) and couldn't remember much before that point.

But with the help of the mushroom that event was remembered, played out and the so called trauma would be lifted and then I could remember things even further back in my life - to age three - age two -  further back and everything in between.

It was as if life's memory was a road with hills; turn around and look behind you and you see only as far back as the last hill you went over

(A memory block) remove all hills and see your point of origin. (I can see why this mushroom was showing success in psychoanalysis by psychiatrist before our government made it illegal in 1964; you can cover years of therapy in just a few minutes.)
So under the influence of the mushrooms in one session, I closed my eyes, and started to remember when I was five. I would start there. This was as far back as I could remember without the mushroom.

This is how the technique worked:

It's much easier to remember being three years old when your five then trying to remember being three years old when your twenty. So I would regress to five years old (Self hypnosis plus mushroom) and remember what I remembered as a five year old. Then I could work my way backwards. It worked great! I wanted to see just how far back I could remember! Does our brain really remember and record everything that happens in our life? I've heard it said but is it true?

(I learned later that it does record everything and I mean everything including and especially everything heard while you were sleeping or unconscious, when hearing is at a heighten state, which disturbingly came up later in a session when I was recalling an operation under anesthesia.)


Being under the influence of the mushroom was more than just remembering, it was like playing a video of your life except when you press play you actually leave your time and space, jump into the scene and you ARE there! Smells - sounds - even conversations being said in another room - small little insignificant details long forgotten all come back and are played out again as it happened, It was like traveling back in time - absolutely fascinating!
An example:
EDITED NOTES AND TAPE RECORDINGS FROM MUSHROOM SESSION: #13
JULY 15th 1969
Subject: David ******
(4.5 grams dry cubensis mushroom - ingested)
AGE: 19

LOCATION: Brandies University - Relaxed clinical setting
AGE REGRESSION #3
75 minutes after ingestion - (Counting backwards from ten to one I regress to July, 1955. - I'm 5 years old.)

Time: 10:07 PM

START RECORDING:
DAVID: " I'm in front of my house - Dockray Street in Quincy Massachusetts. I'm walking towards Beal Street. It's a hot sunny day ... I'm wearing a blue outfit... God I remember this shirt!"

(I'm seeing this like I'm viewing a dream but as I pass under some maple trees I feel myself leave 1969 and enter my character and I'm now actually back in 1955 reliving this particular day.)

DAVID: " It's mid July. Maple tree seeds...falling to the ground. You know the ones that spin like helicopters as they fall?"

Pause:

" I'm crossing the intersection of Hilda and Dockray Street. To my left Hilda Street is paved but to my rite Hilda Street is still a dirt road ending at the Bumpity road... no wall..no fence."

" I can feel the sun, hear birds, crickets and the traffic up on Beal Street. AMAZING!!"

" I can smell asphalt and tar. Kerosene road lamps are on the ground in front of the Miller's house; they're lit and look like black cannon balls with flame and thick black smoke billowing out of the top." (The sweet smell of burning kerosene is mixing with the hot day as they're about to finish paving Hilda street. I'm a washed with old memories and smells of the 1950's.)

"Steven Dubois is up at Beal street calling me to come to him."

(Steven is my age  - five. Beal street is a busy street and I shouldn't be up there however no one ever told me why.)

As I walk another 100 feet and as I approach the busy street, things go dizzy. Steven is pointing down at something. It doesn't make sense at first and it takes me a while - but then I begin to understand.

Steven: "Look! A dead squirrel!" (It's head crushed by a car! My first encounter with a dead animal and my own mortality..this could be me!! I feel faint!)
"Wow! I forgot all about that!" as I pop back to 1969.
I would find myself back in the test room, eyes opened, still under the influence of the mushrooms and less than a few seconds had passed.

With the memory block of my first encounter with a dead animal lifted old lost memories begin to flood back. I could now remember quite vividly all that happened back to age three! Two years of lost memories all come flooding back. But then... I couldn't remember being two. Why?

I would now regress back to age three and play back another suppressed memory. (Does the present psychiatric community know about this?)
It would go on from there. At three; a memory of my older brother playing and roughhousing with our collie. (I thought our dog was trying to eat him.)
With that out of the way I could remember everything back to when I was two when, regressed again to August of 1952, re-witnessed my brother having his cast and a traction pin removed from his leg at the local Hospital.

My mother wanted to be in the room with my brother so they left the door to the waiting room ajar to keep an eye on me. I was playing with a picture book, sitting on the floor but I saw everything - sawing and lots of screaming!
That last mushroom session had brought me all the way back to crib memories. My mother verified this when I identified a kitchen sink that I was bathed in and items on the wall in a house we use to live in back in 1950. (We moved out of that house in June of that year when I was three months old. She had asked me how I could possibly remember that far back.)
So by using the mushroom I ultimately regressed back to three months old. Ninety days! I had trouble going back any further though - it seemed at this age every day is a traumatic event...but then while walking to the store a few days after that last session I remembered this dream I used to have and it hit me. Wow!

How could I have forgotten that? I had this dream - the very same dream every single night since I was an infant up until age six. Except on a few occasions, it was the only dream I ever had! It was such a nightly routine in my dreaming I thought everybody had this dream when they went to sleep at night and so I never questioned it. I use to call it THE STRING DREAM.

I was age six before I began asking friends why we had this String dream every night and was surprised to find they didn't. That's when I discovered other people had different dreams every night... stories - with people in them.

It's funny the day I found that out I never had that String Dream again.
Anyway, I thought maybe I could bypass the last 90 days and remember my actual birth or even in-vitro memories by tuning in on that dream.Maybe that dream holds some secrets! I would try that on my next session with mushrooms - after all what would a newborn baby dream about? Interesting!

Recorded tapes and notes taken by Jay *****
OCTOBER 20th, 1969  -  MONDAY
Subject: David ******
10:00 PM  -  Dose: 5 grams of dried cubensis mushrooms
Body weight: 168 lbs. - empty stomach
Age: 19
Location: Norwell, Massachusetts  -  domestic setting
Session #14

Regression #4
First effects felt: Twenty minutes.
Ninety minutes after ingestion: Having strong visuals.
(I close my eyes and think of any dream I may had when I was 3 months old - slowly counting backwards from ten to one. I was getting good at this, I was under by seven).

Time: 11:35 PM (95 minutes after ingestion)
Regressed to early June 1950 (I'm three months old.)

BEGIN RECORDING:

DAVE: " I'm in a crib...bassinet - I just woke up from that String Dream again and I'm crying."

(The dream triggers an even earlier memory of that same dream but with much more clarity so I quickly regress again to what I guess to be three days old. I'm guessing this because when I woke up I was in a hospital setting. I now remember the dream vividly.)

The String Dream
(A linguistic interpretation of the abstract from a child three days old)

David: " A clusters of strings... an infinite in number... parallel to one another ... extending in all directions... to infinity... all vibrating in step. One linear string resonates the other...a harmonic exchange, creating ... an all encompassing cosmic song."
" I'm part of this song. The song is singing information about intangible multi-dimensional geometric shapes, densities, energy levels and equivalences - each string sharing all its information with one another in a song that has no words...no beginning."
" I feel like I'm part of the energy strings, disembodied, without substance, without time, vibrating in perfect harmony...no space... no sensation of ... pure mathematics "

Pause:

"Pure mathematics!"
" The cosmic song is being disrupted...a variation in frequency on one of the strings." (A point on one of the strings has dropped to a lower pitch as for a better word.) "Adjacent parallel strings in close proximity are also pulled down in pitch as to fill the void of disruption...now the whole song is beginning to distort and slow down." (As if it were audible the song grows louder as the pitch falls lower and lower with a sensation of being pulled inside out.)

SENSATION:
"Sudden feeling of being - disassociation - discomfort.
A smell! A taste... a salty copper taste...sea water! Salty fluid permeating the nasals cavities and chest area...an increasing feeling of discomfort - and that salt water like taste... it's... like drowning!"
SENSATION:

"Feeling of being disconnected from the String Song...extreme discomfort in legs... (first audible sounds and tones now being heard)...fluids discharging from nose and lungs -  light - feeling of terror"... (The cosmic String Song crescendos in an abrupt deafening silence.)
" It's quiet...very quiet...long time... no harmonics."
"The String Song is fading... a noise...a loud noise from another place. I'm waking up from my String dream. The noise makes me feel uncomfortable. And that taste!! It still lingers." (Residual dried embryonic fluids still encrusted in parts of the posterior portions of the nasal cavities.)
SENSATION:
(Visual stimuli now coordinating with other sensory input as I am becoming self aware inside a bassinet.
It's about the 3ed day after my birth and I just had that String Dream again. One eye is crusted over from my sleep. There is an urge to remove the annoyance but an inability to figure out how.)
"A loud sound from another place makes me feel uneasy. I don't understand sounds. It carries no information. Just random noise; no harmonics like...like..."


With memories of the String Song still fading I receive more and more input from my new environment. A song I once understood now fades into the obscurity of the sights and sounds of my new surroundings. My third day on this planet is just a fleeting moment drowned in a whirlwind of sensory stimuli.


" ... I'm falling asleep again and my head is laying to the right. You know at three days old there isn't much difference between dreaming and being awake."

Remembering my birth removed my last block and I figured I had gone as far back as anyone could go when...


RECORDING:
11:46 PM (106 minutes after ingestion)


DAVID: "Jay! I'm having memories that are not mine!"


(Could it be with all traumas now removed even earlier memories are surfacing? But what memories?)

Long Pause.
DAVID: "I'm having detailed memories of someone's life." This can't be!"
"It's long ago - are you still recording this?"
"I don't know if I like this."
Pause.
"I feel like I'm floating through peoples lives. I can't explain it!"
"Jesus - five grams is too much mushrooms! This is very strange!"

Pause.

"I can... see hundreds of lives...complete life's with all their memories stretched out in front of me like...like a scenic portrait!"
"Now I'm having very detailed memories of someone's ..."
"This is not happening! My subconscious must be making this up!"
"I'm slowing down!" "I'm slowing down!"
"Are you recording this?"

(Broken speech from excitement and due to an inability to translate fast enough.)

"OHHH! It's very long ago - Northern Scandinavian...Saxon I think... language...clothing."
"I can see the whole life memory of a woman. She is distantly related to me in a way I can't explain - suffered an emotional trauma - imprinted - was past down, and now some how I ... this is so deja vu."
Pause.
"Events in her life are far too detailed for my subconscious to be making this up - at this rate of speed anyway."
"I can remember every road she ever walked down - people she knew - her three children. These memories are not mine!"
"Oh! Oh! One of her children!!"

Pause.
"I'm beginning to enter her character - oh shit!"
Pause.
(I'm afraid and a bit bewildered. I had gotten use to leaving my body, sort of speak, to visit and replay my passed childhood but this was different; I was afraid I might not find my way back! However a sense of calm and wonderment washes over me as I leave 1969 and enter this woman's character and relive a day in this women's life.)

Long Pause.
It's cold out and I'm separating grain from the chaff by throwing it in the air and letting the wind carry the chaff away. Somehow I remember that. (A very strong deja vu - nostalgic feeling washes over me again along with a strong feeling of adrenalin - like you get after you sneeze or when your suddenly frightened.)
Pause.
I'm in a small field surrounded by woods. I know this place! Others with two wheel wooden carts drawn by horses are gathering grain. I know this place! I know this place!

Pause.

People are talking around me in a language I can understand... but can't translate. Strange!
It's morning; dew still on the ground, the sun is low and I can see my breath...we don't usually harvest in the early morning but the rains will be hear soon and...how do I know this?
Pause.
I'm beginning to feel dizzy
"The squirrel!!"
(A subconscious connection is made)

"The squirrel!!"
"Something is about to happen!"
"Oh Jesus! I don't want to remember this."
Pause. (Agitated)
"A runaway horse and cart ... crashing out of the woods and onto the field. Others working in the field are screaming ...  yelling ... yelling -there are bees buzzing the horse."

Pause.
"Yelling seems exaggerated; it's just a runaway cart..."
Pause.
"Oh God!! My child has her foot caught in its wheel.
"'Tiala!"
"She is being spun around! Her head is hitting the ground and going under the wheel of the cart with every revolution! I'm fainting."

(There is a quick flash of me standing on Beal street with Steven Du Boise pointing at a dead squirrel; I have the sensation of some sort of genetic filing taking place; a reinforced memory of wheels and it's deadly consequences. then - trauma lifted. I begin to feel myself floating back through people's lives again...back further in time.

I understand at this point I may have just experienced a psychotic episode and a split in personality however I was fascinated by what was happening and the exquisitely fine detail of it all - so I continued.)

DAVID: " I'm going further back...It's very, very, long ago."
"A man ... lives in a mountainous region. I remember him!"

"Oh God... I remember this!"
Pause.
"I can feel myself leaving...I'm going to enter his character."
(But I don't enter his character. Everything stops.)

"I'm slowing down!"

"I'm slowing down!"

Long pause.

(In confusion my speech becomes very broken)

"I'm now listening  ... seems to include some ... What is this!?"


(A ringing in my ears like the after gong of a bell begins to morph into a high pitched whine like that of a sacata bug; like the ones you hear on a hot summer's day. I pop back to the present and I open my eyes to end the session due to this unusual noise and see Jay sitting there with the tape recorder -  frozen!)


Dave: "Jay!" (No answer.)
11:59:06 - I noticed that the second hand had stopped on the clock next to me and then realized I was frozen as well. Even my visuals stopped. The only thing that had any movement in the room was the image coming into focus on the T.V. set that now seems to be on. Strange!
As two figures come into focus on the T.V. screen my first reaction is confusion. I don't know what I'm looking at. I'm wondering if they are some kind of animals maybe  - skinned goats or something - just morphing mushroom hallucinations? Still I can't figure out what I'm looking at.

Then, and I don't know why, I get the sudden feeling like my heart and blood pressure are being monitored. Strange! Then panic sets in. Panic so intense I can't breath...can't move. I CAN'T MOVE!?

Now I can't tell if the feeling of being immobilized is control by an external means or I'm just paralyzed from self induced fear. I'm trying very hard to maintain an objective view here. This has never happened before.

I'm thinking it's just too much mushrooms that's all! Classical delusional paranoia% - it must be! Just ride it out!
(I now hear the high pitched sound moving higher in register now sounding more like the whine of a mosquito and then higher still - out of my hearing range all together and replaced by words. However the words have no sound and yet seem to be coming from the eyes of the things on the television set. The information comes at me so fast I can only understand pieces.)

Things on the TV: (coming in very broken)

" Shtaaaaaag beey
Shtaaaaaag be
Staaaan be ... Stannd beee ... Stannd by ... Stand by
Zeroing in ...
Coordinating your time... location... can you understand...contact...
communication system...
instantaneously through interstellar distances.

Genetic material...in frozen dormant states tucked away in pieces of interplanetary debris from asteroid impacts on other worlds in distant past...arrived on your planet ... your genealogy goes back to other worlds that existed billions of years ago... DNA molecule replicating it self into creatures that existed on other ...

...original deposited genetic material still exist on some of your frozen moons...

... DNA is life - it is intelligent...biologically tera formed this planet...some of this same DNA landed on many other planets billions of years before yours ... they are now...

(I become very uncomfortable now  -  mind racing. I'm fully aware at this very moment that if this is just me talking to myself in my mind then I am truly having a bona fide schizophrenic breakdown. That idea was terrifying enough - however  -  more terrifying was what if this information is not coming from me? - I want to stop now ! )

...evolutionary brain development when... given... and dormant information... encoded in your DNA is historical information... star systems ... why...making contact at this time ...shock wave from your galactic core along with interstellar...can...gravity wave...sun will soon behave like a variable star beginning in the early part of your next century ...  extreme flaring...nova type solar mass ejections.
Genetic sequencing under way ...

...avoiding social and cultural shock...
... conditioning... disclosure will then... species relocation.

With technological means of determining the future - these predictions verified by EBE 3 "

(At this point I become unfrozen and the second hand on the clock next to me starts to move again as Jay begins to speak. However Jay's voice sounds like a tape player slowly coming up to speed from a dead stop.)

Jay: "AAARRRREEEE YOUUUU O.K. DAVE?"

In a panic I jump up: "What the fuck was that? Did you get that on tape? Jay!Play back the last few seconds!"
(I see Jay instead rewind to the very beginning of the evenings session and then press play.)


TAPE: " I'm in a crib, bassinet - I just woke up from that String Dream again and I'm crying. Are you O.K Dave? What the fuck was that? Did you get that on tape? Jay! Play back the last few seconds."
Tape ends.

I asked: "Is that it? Where's the rest?"
Jay answered; "What rest?"
"The String Dream, the run away horse in the field, solar mass ejections, DNA?"

Jay (very confused): "We just started a few seconds ago!"
(I looked at the clock and it's 11:35PM again.)

After that session on mushrooms I was very close to discontinuing with this experimentation. This was wayout of my league. And that last part involving the TV and something about DNA and the sun...What was that?

I had to consider it to be just a hallucination because I didn't understand any of it. Probably just my subconscious trying to process my last biology and science courses much like our dreams do in a non sensible way so I totally dismissed that part.

However the implications of any the scenarios prier to that were all profound to say the least.

Either I had lost touch with reality with too much neurochemicals, which is not good by the way, or I could have actually stumbled upon a way to tap into some kind of ancestral memory.

The fact that nothing was recored on the tape recorder at all should of told me that it was time to give it up.

However I remember on occasions nodding off for two minutes and having a dream that I swear was two hours long. Does that mean I did not have that dream? What if accessing ancestral memories requires a different way of understanding time? Or what if I'm just trying to convince myself so... in denial...avoiding the possibility that I may be slipping into schizophrenia.

After weeks of indecision I decided to try one more session with the stipulation that I substantiate an event that I could not otherwise possibly know from a passed generation and then verify that it happened.

My grandparents had all passed away. The only way was to draw out a memory from either my mother or fathers childhood and then verify it with them. Could that be done?

I would try that in my next session.

                                          Chapter Two

                                      OUR RELIGIONS

Solar Region 10759 spawned a major class M8 flare today accompanied by a weak proton enhancement and strong radio emissions. The coronal mass ejection from this event appears (based on preliminary LASCO data) to be fairly squarely Earthward-directed. As a result, the Earth has a higher probability of passing through an influential magnetic cloud associated with the ejected solar plasma. Most forecast centers are anticipating a major geomagnetic storm on 15 and 16thof May, 2005. We do not differ. This event has the potential to be quite influential and could even produce periods of severe geomagnetic storm conditions (perhaps brief K-indices of 7 or higher) after it arrives. Our arrival estimate is based on Type II shock velocity estimates, which are notoriously less reliable than plane of sky measurements from LASCO. END

Above is the latest LASCO data available at the time of this writing. Please keep in mind this is the largest recorded solar outburst since we began observing our sun with advanced satellite technology.


I know the Sun has been classified generally as in a steady-state condition, scientist know full well that there are minor fluctuations in Solar conditions which cause minor Solar weather changes and possible disruptions upon earth such a glacial periods, and these are normal. However, I now believe the Sun could be a variable output star or a T-Tauri type star constantly flaring up in a cyclic pattern.

Our recorded history goes back only six thousand years and it maybe that the sun goes through cycles that are much longer than that span of time.
Our sun may go through extremely long cycles and I found a person who agrees with this, a Dr. Paul La Violette who suggested that early man maybe as far back as 80,000 years ago began to recoded such events and passed on that information. This information is now lost in the obscurity of ancient myths and legends and it may be time we start sifting through this data.

For example there are warnings found in ancient and sacred writings including Greek, ancient Sumerian Text, and the Old Testament about the Sun and other heavenly bodies that need to be investigated by the scientific community.
It has been discovered that the Mayan ancient star lore connected with the Sagittarius and Scorpius constellations indicated the location of our galactic center, a feat only recently achieved by modern astronomers, it further conveyed the idea of an explosive outburst from the center of our galaxy, and specified a significant past date:


Copyright 1997-2014 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.


--------------------
Icelander said: I'd like to fund unlimited abortions. Finally some good coming from my tax dollars.

Repetoire89 said: I love abortion and fully condone it - some should make it into a sport.

Treesniper119 said: Any one who is willing to start life & also willing to deny life to their form/seed/child/offspring is cursed.
For you have severed your own cord to lifes worth.
Anyone who condones these actions is cursed as well...


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20691180 - 10/11/14 11:42 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)


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OfflinePed
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: treesniper119]
    #20691417 - 10/12/14 02:09 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> How does a mother know her child is in distress even when the child may be many miles away?

Mothers frequently think about their children being in distress when they are separated from them.  This is an attribute of being a mother, and is especially true toward the child's earliest years.  It is an instinct hard-wired into our species by our evolutionary biology.  Because this sensation is a common occurrence, and because there are millions and millions of people in the world, there will be the occasional instance where a mother will find herself struck by this commonplace anxiety at the same their child is in actual, real-world distress.  On the surface, it may appear as though something mystical has happened, but this phenomenon is more likely to be consistent with probability theory than it is with mystical woo-woo nonsense that people made up in their imaginations.


>> What makes a chicken raised indoors all it's life run for cover when it sees a shadow of a hawk when its never seen one?

Epigenetics.


>> Where does the bird get it's information on how to build a nest when it never built one?

They learn, just like we do.


>> What makes animals run to higher ground an hour before a tsunami hits?

Animal senses are different from ours in many ways, and many of these fine-tunings are specific to the peripheral nervous system.  This is because animals are continually exposed to predation.  Tsunamis arise as the result of major upheavals of the ocean floor, or shifts in land masses.  These events send a type of elastic wave through the earth's crust.  Humans cannot detect these waves without seismometers, but animals can.  This and other heightened sensitivities explain how animals can anticipate such events hours or minutes ahead of human beings.  As for the notion of animals anticipating events days or weeks in advance, these probably just aren't true, and if they are true they certainly have a natural explanation.


>> It is routinely passed off as just information hardwired into the brain after countless generations of successful repetitive tasks.

This is view is basically correct, albeit incomplete and somewhat unsophisticated from a scientific point of view.


>> But when I was twenty I questioned that. What if it wasn't that at all.



These four questions and two points required only a few minutes to answer, and a few extra minutes to apply references to.  Science has made this possible by not only exploring these questions in great detail using sophisticated instrumentation and superior methodology, but also inventing the technology that's made it possible for anyone in the world with a computer and an internet connection to instantly find credible answers to these questions.

As for the rest of that text-mass, I simply don't have the interest.

Science, not pseudoscience and woo, is the way forward.  It will be science, not new-age hocus-pocus and flowery language, which unlocks the deepest mysteries of phenomenal existence.


--------------------


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20691473 - 10/12/14 03:03 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
The evidence indicates that consciousness is a property of complex biology. 




Where? How?


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
    #20691474 - 10/12/14 03:06 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> Where? How?

Where else?


--------------------


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20691603 - 10/12/14 06:05 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

mental contents is the stuff of consciousness, and for mental contents to exist the biological brain has to function.
mental contents is not data
memory is not data storage
you do not remember everything.

if there is any sort of life after death it is not consciousness, and it is not mental contents.

OBE's are reconstructions in the brain from cues, in the same way that memory is reconstruction from cues.

NDE's are also reconstructive.

this does not disprove aspects of some instances of telepathy which may be real, but it will not be simple data transmission and reception (we do not have any digital apparatus for that), it will be something closer to whale-song that we are not yet looking for.
It will probably be some physical signals that we pick up when in a particularly resonant state and we then use those signals to reconstruct mental contents.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20692339 - 10/12/14 11:25 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

this does not disprove aspects of some instances of telepathy... it will be something closer to whale-song



Hence this woman's natural ESP ability. :cookiemonster:


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20692610 - 10/12/14 12:40 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

wow she's gorgeous, do you have a phone number or email?


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20692858 - 10/12/14 01:45 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Speaking to rabbits, have you seen Lynch's? :razz:


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20692986 - 10/12/14 02:14 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
wow she's gorgeous, do you have a phone number or email?




Just send out some 180 decibel high-pitched squeals and wait for the response.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20693228 - 10/12/14 03:09 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I'm using doughnuts for bait.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Sun King]
    #20693275 - 10/12/14 03:18 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Go to Walmart and catch your legal limit in 5 minutes.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20693319 - 10/12/14 03:30 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

So tired of all this.

awaiting NEGATIVE or no reply


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20693340 - 10/12/14 03:33 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OBE's are reconstructions in the brain from cues, in the same way that memory is reconstruction from cues.

NDE's are also reconstructive


.

Says who?

And has whoever stated this actually experienced either an OBE or an NDE?

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: liquidlounge]
    #20693563 - 10/12/14 04:21 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
So tired of all this.

awaiting NEGATIVE or no reply




Of what are you so tired?


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20693567 - 10/12/14 04:22 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Go to Walmart and catch your legal limit in 5 minutes.




Caught a few cops and had to throw them back.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Sun King]
    #20693626 - 10/12/14 04:33 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sun King said:
Quote:

liquidlounge said:
So tired of all this.

awaiting NEGATIVE or no reply




Of what are you so tired?



The Program.

:justdontknow:


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: liquidlounge]
    #20693638 - 10/12/14 04:35 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Change the channel.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20693670 - 10/12/14 04:43 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> Where? How?

Where else?




This link tells me nothing. It's at best a bunch of scientists who have made the same assumption as you, namely the primacy of the physical world, and because this assumption agrees with your assumption you agree with them.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
    #20693680 - 10/12/14 04:45 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Wrong, it does tell you something. It tells you that he has backing for his views within the scientific community. 

Your turn to present a valid rebuttal or evidence.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
    #20693725 - 10/12/14 04:55 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> This link tells me nothing. It's at best a bunch of scientists who have made the same assumption as you

Scientists do not rely on assumptions.  They rely upon hypotheses substantiated by rigorous investigation, facts, and evidence.  That is why science is a reliable, while mysticism is not.


>> namely the primacy of the physical world, and because this assumption agrees with your assumption you agree with them.

Evidence is evidence, and it does not require assumption or agreement to be true.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
    #20694171 - 10/12/14 06:36 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

OBE's are reconstructions in the brain from cues, in the same way that memory is reconstruction from cues.

NDE's are also reconstructive


.

Says who?

And has whoever stated this actually experienced either an OBE or an NDE?




all your memory is reconstructive - this is the general accepted understanding in courts of Canada which is behind the state of the art however this is what has been considered most seriously since 1932

http://psych.wustl.edu/memory/Roddy%20article%20PDF%27s/BC_Roediger%20&%20DeSoto%20%28in%20press%29.pdf

you may want to real more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructive_memory

this is not cruel information it is very kind and realistic. I encourage you to take it seriously.

(edit:)
to make the importance of this clear.
while there is no brain activity, the experience is not happening, but when revived, an experience occurs that constructs what may have happened based upon the current tableau.

I am not saying that the cues cannot be very subtle, however they occur to the mind when in a receptive  conscious state, not during the flat line.
therefore the mind reconstructs the OBE and NDE after it supposedly occurred, not at the same time and not before.


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Edited by redgreenvines (10/12/14 06:53 PM)

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
    #20694409 - 10/12/14 07:23 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Wrong, it does tell you something. It tells you that he has backing for his views within the scientific community. 





So one big appeal to authority fallacy.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
    #20694567 - 10/12/14 07:59 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> So one big appeal to authority fallacy.

An appeal to authority fallacy is not fallacious when the appeal is made to an actual authority, and when that authority is specifically relevant to the subject matter at hand.  In this case, the Society for Neuroscience represents a community of the world's foremost evidence-guided researchers investigating consciousness and its phenomenal substrate.  Their research is supported by meticulously gathered peer-reviewed evidence, and as such their insights are appropriately regarded as trustworthy and reliable. 

If the claim is made that the Society for Neuroscience (or neuroscience in general) is not a reliable source of factual insights, adequate evidence must be furnished in support of that claim.  No such evidence exists, and there is no indication that it is forthcoming.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
    #20694876 - 10/12/14 09:27 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Wrong, it does tell you something. It tells you that he has backing for his views within the scientific community. 





So one big appeal to authority fallacy.




What are you appealing to???


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20695641 - 10/13/14 02:38 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

OBE's are reconstructions in the brain from cues, in the same way that memory is reconstruction from cues.

NDE's are also reconstructive


.

Says who?

And has whoever stated this actually experienced either an OBE or an NDE?




all your memory is reconstructive - this is the general accepted understanding in courts of Canada which is behind the state of the art however this is what has been considered most seriously since 1932

http://psych.wustl.edu/memory/Roddy%20article%20PDF%27s/BC_Roediger%20&%20DeSoto%20%28in%20press%29.pdf

you may want to real more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructive_memory

this is not cruel information it is very kind and realistic. I encourage you to take it seriously.

(edit:)
to make the importance of this clear.
while there is no brain activity, the experience is not happening, but when revived, an experience occurs that constructs what may have happened based upon the current tableau.

I am not saying that the cues cannot be very subtle, however they occur to the mind when in a receptive  conscious state, not during the flat line.
therefore the mind reconstructs the OBE and NDE after it supposedly occurred, not at the same time and not before.




How do they ACTUALLY know that when "there is no brain activity, the experience is not happening". Surely that speculation is founded on the materialist belief that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the brain (eg that the brain produces consciousness)? Hence the assumption that if the brain has flatlined there is no consciousness. They cannot prove that is so because there is no ACTUAL evidence!

It also doesn't explain that people have reported WHAT they were aware/conscious of WHEN the brain was clinically dead, and that there memory is verified by others who were conscious at the time.

Also, apparently OBEs can happen when the person is not clinically dead, and similar experiences can occur including information obtained when person is asleep, or unconscious.

And like I said, have these 'scienstists' who insist on the materialistic worldview actually experienced NDEs or OBEs themselves?

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
    #20695703 - 10/13/14 03:49 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

you could say that there is not enough reconstructive cue material for their tiny minds to assemble a scenario to wake up in. (the mind is not so tiny)

what I find astonishing - especially here at the shroomery - is that you can ignore the time dilation effect, which happens when stoned or in a dream state, and that you simply must take the NDE/OBE story verbatim because you want to believe what the story "obviously" means.

we here, of all places, should know that hallucination is natural, and that memory is reconstructive. We should know that emerging from sleep or anaesthesia is equal to a very strong drug trip.

the only thing that is obvious in these circumstances is that the person is emerging from an unconscious state, and some of these people report experiences that are similar and related to the medical emergency they are in.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20695783 - 10/13/14 05:55 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

You seem to think you know what I mean, and suggest I think 'minds are tiny'? That is ridiculous, and you are just putting words into my mouth to somehow win me over with your materialistic worldview.

You think i WANT to believe in OBEs and NDEs. Well, I could say same about you--you WANT to believe in materialism, that the brain produces consciousness. Where does this get us?

have YOU personally ever had what you seem to know so much about in a 'case is closed' type of way? have you ever had an OBE or NDE?

it is just a question. I have had two OBEs.

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
    #20695789 - 10/13/14 06:03 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I have had OBE, and I am not a classic "materialist"
in the sense that more is at play than people understand.
but I am also not buying into lazy traditional explanations for the cozy feelings they engender.

For me going inside, means digging deeper.

There are mysteries in these topics, they are not trivial.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20695939 - 10/13/14 07:59 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I respect that. The asking of questions, but I am not trying to be 'cozy'. I also question a lot of the religious stuff many claimed NDErs report which they intend to indoctrinate people with whether that be heaven or hell, as some bible preach all that to mean
But I tend to see materialist interpretations as a bit cosy. IE the need to believe that 'when yer dead yer dead'. it is like two sides of a same coin type of thing--the typical atheist versus theist trip and vice verse

Edited by zzripz (10/13/14 08:00 AM)

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
    #20696320 - 10/13/14 10:21 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> But I tend to see materialist interpretations as a bit cosy. IE the need to believe that 'when yer dead yer dead'. it is like two sides of a same coin type of thing--the typical atheist versus theist trip and vice verse

The difference is that "when yer dead yer dead" is currently supported by the evidence, while any statement to the contrary is completely unsupported by evidence, and no such evidence is forthcoming.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20696378 - 10/13/14 10:34 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Death is still mysterious to me as is life.
I think consciousness is rooted on brain and whatever continues after life or before it does not look down at bodies and have thoughts.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20696431 - 10/13/14 10:47 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Death is still mysterious to me as is life.
I think consciousness is rooted on brain and whatever continues after life or before it does not look down at bodies and have thoughts.




:thumbup:


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20696477 - 10/13/14 10:58 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

That's fine, but it remains true that a belief in post-corporeal life is not on equal footing with the evidence indicating corporeal life.  These are not equally valid views, whether in terms of their 'coziness' or otherwise.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20696550 - 10/13/14 11:19 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> But I tend to see materialist interpretations as a bit cosy. IE the need to believe that 'when yer dead yer dead'. it is like two sides of a same coin type of thing--the typical atheist versus theist trip and vice verse

The difference is that "when yer dead yer dead" is currently supported by the evidence, while any statement to the contrary is completely unsupported by evidence, and no such evidence is forthcoming.




what evidence?

and how do you KNOW no evidence would be forthcoming?

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
    #20696559 - 10/13/14 11:21 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> How do they ACTUALLY know that when "there is no brain activity, the experience is not happening".

- Evidence
- The laws of physics


>> Surely that speculation is founded on the materialist belief that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the brain (eg that the brain produces consciousness)?

The evidence indicates that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the brain.


>> Hence the assumption that if the brain has flatlined there is no consciousness.

When the heart flat lines, it means there is no pulse.  This is because the pulse is an epiphenomenon of the heart.


>> They cannot prove that is so because there is no ACTUAL evidence!

Evidence is not required to prove a negative.  Evidence is required to prove a positive.  If the assertion is that consciousness exceeds its corporeal limits, evidence must be furnished to support that claim.  No such evidence exists.  No such evidence is forthcoming.  It is therefore entirely correct to rely upon the existing evidence indicating that consciousness does not exceed its corporeal limits. 


>> It also doesn't explain that people have reported WHAT they were aware/conscious of WHEN the brain was clinically dead, and that there memory is verified by others who were conscious at the time.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence at all, and there are numerous explanations for these reports which do not require a belief in magic or ghosts.


>> Also, apparently OBEs can happen when the person is not clinically dead, and similar experiences can occur including information obtained when person is asleep, or unconscious.

I have tested this repeatedly.  During my ketamine days, I frequently left my body and seemed to float up toward the ceiling, sometimes even into neighbouring apartments.  Wanting to test whether or not something non-corporeal was in fact leaving my my physical body, while sober I closed my eyes and placed several up-turned playing cards on top of my fridge and kitchen cupboards.  The next time I floated to that region on ketamine, I would attempt to see the cards. 

What transpired confirmed that in fact the OBE is a constructed experience.  I was able to see that playing cards were present, and despite the exquisite detail of the hallucination I was unable to see which cards were present there.  Their faces were a jumble of black and red shapes, but it was impossible to identify which cards were which.  This indicates the experience was assembled neurologically using only the information available to my brain.  Since I did not have the information necessary to reconstruct the cards, that experience could not be fully rendered.

I also made an excuse to visit my upstairs neighbour, so as to evaluate if the layout of his apartment matched the layout I saw whilst floating up through his floor.  It was completely and totally different.

Now, all of this is anecdotal evidence, and should not be taken as real evidence from your point of view.  This experience, however, confirmed for me that OBE's are in fact constructed phenomenon synthesized from memory with enormous contributions from the brain's creative perceptual construction processes.


>> And like I said, have these 'scienstists' who insist on the materialistic worldview actually experienced NDEs or OBEs themselves?

Scientists insist on evidence, not a worldview or any other ideology.  Since NDEs and OBEs are fairly commonplace, it stands to reason that yes, many scientists who insist upon evidence have actually experienced these phenomena first hand.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20696574 - 10/13/14 11:24 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

thats not possible, your consciousness is created by living neurons, when they die, your consciousness stops as well.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
    #20696578 - 10/13/14 11:25 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> what evidence?

Begin here.


>> [iand how do you KNOW no evidence would be forthcoming?

At the present time, there is no reason to anticipate that evidence proving the existence of magic ghosts is forthcoming.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20697757 - 10/13/14 03:34 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
That's fine, but it remains true that a belief in post-corporeal life is not on equal footing with the evidence indicating corporeal life.  These are not equally valid views, whether in terms of their 'coziness' or otherwise.



obvious ignorance is backward.
but so is pompous certainty that undefined things are false.
what happens after or before death is not consciousness but it may be something for which  we do not have words or concepts, and I think a scientific mind should be in accord with that type of approach.

200 years ago scientists in general would be against radio, x-rays, flying machines, atomic energy, and even inoculation, but we have discovered more layers to reality.

I will agree wholeheartedly that most after death writing, is outright chicanery and charlatanism, maybe all of it is.

I do not really think much about life after death - I don't see the point, except to help a grieving friend. There might be something or maybe not, in any case it is not consciousness as we know it because what we know is 100% related to the body.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20697773 - 10/13/14 03:37 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

>> How do they ACTUALLY know that when "there is no brain activity, the experience is not happening".

- Evidence
- The laws of physics


I have tested this repeatedly.  During my ketamine days, I frequently left my body and seemed to float up toward the ceiling, sometimes even into neighbouring apartments.  Wanting to test whether or not something non-corporeal was in fact leaving my my physical body, while sober I closed my eyes and placed several up-turned playing cards on top of my fridge and kitchen cupboards.  The next time I floated to that region on ketamine, I would attempt to see the cards.

What transpired confirmed that in fact the OBE is a constructed experience.  I was able to see that playing cards were present, and despite the exquisite detail of the hallucination I was unable to see which cards were present there.  Their faces were a jumble of black and red shapes, but it was impossible to identify which cards were which.  This indicates the experience was assembled neurologically using only the information available to my brain.  Since I did not have the information necessary to reconstruct the cards, that experience could not be fully rendered.

Scientists insist on evidence, not a worldview or any other ideology.  Since NDEs and OBEs are fairly commonplace, it stands to reason that yes, many scientists who insist upon evidence have actually experienced these phenomena first hand.




lol all physicists don't even share the same 'law of physics'--and share different interpretations. Your approach is typical scientism. The physicists ('experts on matter') are the new priests, taking over the old priests, the 'experts on spirit')

First why should ketamine be assumed to guarantee genuine OBE?
Second, is it a really good blind study if YOU placed the cards?
3rd why, from this one little experiment do you cast doubt on ALL the NDEs and OBEs many people have had throughout all time? 

Ever thought that a reason you could not clearly see WHAT cards were there was because you were suppressing your observation? I mean I don't know you, but have you always had this materialistic outlook? And if you did when taking that drug, do you think that the magnitude of contradicting your worldview may have caused you to not 'be able to see' the cards?

See what I am doing? I am not concluding. I am asking questions.

Please tell me what scientist you know of has admitted to having an OBE or NDE and decided it was false?

And also the whole criteria FOR 'evidence' from a scientific method is coming from a  worldview which is unaware of a philosophically indoctrinated duality between subject and object. This is why the materialist will call another's actual direct experience 'anecdotal'...

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
    #20697835 - 10/13/14 03:51 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

but your questions are snarky and you are making generalizations about physicists that are not valid.

why do that?


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20697859 - 10/13/14 03:58 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Because he has zero substantiation for his POV. :shrug:


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20698138 - 10/13/14 05:06 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> So one big appeal to authority fallacy.

An appeal to authority fallacy is not fallacious when the appeal is made to an actual authority, and when that authority is specifically relevant to the subject matter at hand.  In this case, the Society for Neuroscience represents a community of the world's foremost evidence-guided researchers investigating consciousness and its phenomenal substrate.  Their research is supported by meticulously gathered peer-reviewed evidence, and as such their insights are appropriately regarded as trustworthy and reliable. 

If the claim is made that the Society for Neuroscience (or neuroscience in general) is not a reliable source of factual insights, adequate evidence must be furnished in support of that claim.  No such evidence exists, and there is no indication that it is forthcoming.




The Society for Neuroscience are only experts if and only if one already assumes that consciousness is a property of the brain. Otherwise they're clowns on a wild goose chase.

Therefore, your reasoning is circular. In order to believe that materialists are experts one must already assume a materialist position.

I maintain that it's at least equally likely that the physical world is a property of consciousness. This is supported by the evidence of dreams and OBEs, in which a physical world is demonstrably experienced without a brain.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
    #20699003 - 10/13/14 08:24 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

no brain!
that's a relief


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20699315 - 10/13/14 09:19 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> what happens after or before death is not consciousness but it may be something

There does not exist any evidence or reason to believe it is something, or to that it may be something, and no such evidence is forthcoming.


>> 200 years ago scientists in general would be against radio, x-rays, flying machines, atomic energy, and even inoculation, but we have discovered more layers to reality.

Scientists are not against new discoveries, and in fact scientists discovered radio waves, x-rays, aerodynamics, atomic energy, vaccines, and many more layers to reality.  Scientists are often obstinately skeptical about new discoveries, especially those which overturn previously established insights, but their doubt and their rigour contributes to the certainly by which scientific truths are realized.


>> I will agree wholeheartedly that most after death writing, is outright chicanery and charlatanism, maybe all of it is.

All of it is.  We know this is true because none of it has been presented with evidence.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
    #20699320 - 10/13/14 09:20 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> lol all physicists don't even share the same 'law of physics'--and share different interpretations.

This is plainly incorrect.  The laws of physics are the same from all points of view, and no physicist worth his title suggests otherwise.


>> Your approach is typical scientism. The physicists ('experts on matter') are the new priests, taking over the old priests, the 'experts on spirit')

"Scientism" does not exist.  Scientists and physicists rely on evidence. Physicists are not priests, and this is a meaningless equivocation.


>> First why should ketamine be assumed to guarantee genuine OBE?

The experience contains all of the hallmarks of an OBE.


>> Second, is it a really good blind study if YOU placed the cards?

No, and it was not presented as such. 


>> 3rd why, from this one little experiment do you cast doubt on ALL the NDEs and OBEs many people have had throughout all time? 

The reason to doubt non-corporeal consciousness has nothing to do with my "one little experiment", and everything to do with the complete and total absence of any evidence supporting the notion of non-corporeal consciousness.


>> Ever thought that a reason you could not clearly see WHAT cards were there was because you were suppressing your observation? I mean I don't know you, but have you always had this materialistic outlook? And if you did when taking that drug, do you think that the magnitude of contradicting your worldview may have caused you to not 'be able to see' the cards?

Complicating the question does not lead to a more reliable answer.


>> See what I am doing? I am not concluding. I am asking questions.

You are attempting to equate pseudoscience and science as being equally valid.  They are not equally valid. 


>> Please tell me what scientist you know of has admitted to having an OBE or NDE and decided it was false?

Having an OBE or an NDE does not necessarily translate into believing in magic ghosts and supernatural nonsense.  I've had both these experience, and I do not believe in magic ghosts and supernatural nonsense.  Since OBE's and NDE's are quite common, it stands tor reason that other rational, clear-thinking people have also had this experience without undergoing a persistent departure from reality.


>> And also the whole criteria FOR 'evidence' from a scientific method is coming from a  worldview which is unaware of a philosophically indoctrinated duality between subject and object. This is why the materialist will call another's actual direct experience 'anecdotal'...

A purely esoteric experience has no meaning or relevance to anyone other than the person having it.  Such an individual should not expect to persuade others of the validity of their experience unless they have evidence proving its validity. This is a 'put up or shut up' type of scenario.  If there is no evidence, there is no merit.


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Edited by Ped (10/13/14 09:30 PM)

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
    #20699334 - 10/13/14 09:23 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> The Society for Neuroscience are only experts if and only if one already assumes that consciousness is a property of the brain. Otherwise they're clowns on a wild goose chase.

Scientists does not make assumptions the way people who believe in magic and ghosts do.  That is what differentiates scientists from people who believe in magic and ghosts.  At the present time, the evidence indicates that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the central nervous system.  There does not exist any evidence contradicting this view, and no such evidence is forthcoming.

People who formulate and test hypotheses against observation and evidence are not on a wild goose chase.  People who rely upon anecdotal evidence, fallacious reasoning and conjecture to substantiate their belief in magic ghosts with are on a wild goose chase.


>> Therefore, your reasoning is circular. In order to believe that materialists are experts one must already assume a materialist position.

Straw man fallacy.


>> I maintain that it's at least equally likely that the physical world is a property of consciousness. This is supported by the evidence of dreams and OBEs, in which a physical world is demonstrably experienced without a brain.

There does not exist any evidence indicating that the physical world is a property of consciousness.  There does exist evidence indicating that consciousness is a property of the physical world.  Suggestions to the contrary must be supported by equal or greater evidence.  Dreams and anecdotes are not evidence.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20699496 - 10/13/14 09:59 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>>There does not exist any evidence contradicting this view, and no such evidence is forthcoming.

How do you know?



Quote:



    [... the] Scientific Method (SM) [is] the alleged source of the certitude of those I call the New Idolators. SM is a mixture of SD (sense data: usually aided by instruments to refine the senses) with the old Greek PR [pure reason]. Unfortunately, while SM is powerfully effective, and seems to most of us the best method yet devised by mankind, it is made up of two elements which we have already seen are fallible. [...] Again, two fallibilities do not add up to one infallibility. Scientific generalizations which have lasted a long time have high probability, perhaps the highest probability of any generalizations, but it is only Idolatry which claims none of them will ever again have to be revised or rejected. Too many have been revised or rejected in this century alone.

    — Robert Anton Wilson, The New Inquisition





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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20699740 - 10/13/14 10:52 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> How do you know?

There has not been any evidence of non-corporeal consciousness which has been shown legitimate by peer review, and there is no indication that any such evidence is imminent.  The idea of non-corporeal consciousness is the subject of speculation, far-flung conjecture, or outright fraud.  It is a favourite subject of charlatans. 

As for Robert Anton Wilson,

>> Scientific generalizations which have lasted a long time have high probability, perhaps the highest probability of any generalizations, but it is only Idolatry which claims none of them will ever again have to be revised or rejected. Too many have been revised or rejected in this century alone.

Fortunately, this "idolatry" has nothing to do with science.  No credible scientist insists that a given idea or insight is beyond revision or rejection, and one aspect of being a scientist frequently ignored by irrational critics is the importance of keeping an open mind.  Open-mindedness should not be allowed to metastasize into gullibility, however, as there is exactly zero progress to be found in regarding all ideas and equal to all other ideas.  Indeed, this kind of thinking leads us straight into the darkness of superstitious ignorance.

Non-corporeal consciousness is not an idea which has equal footing with corporeal consciousness, because evidence exists for the latter and not the former.  They are not equal views, and it is not rigid, "idolatrous", or otherwise closed minded to point this out.  Reasonable people distinguish between those ideas which have failed to pass empirical or logical tests, and those ideas which have been repeatedly verified by such tests.  They do not believe things or expect things only because there might exist some future scenario under which those beliefs are proven true. 

Similarly, reasonable people trust the dispassionate investigation of scientific controls, and have learned in the course of their own life experience that subjective validation, group thinking and reinforcement, confirmation bias, pareidolia, and wishful thinking always lead people away from the truth, never toward it.  Someone who understands this basic insight is not an "idolator", they are a rational, clear-thinking individual who is better qualified to explore these subjects than someone who does not understand this basic insight.  There is nothing "idolatrous" about criticizing or challenging claims which have zero or near-zero likelihood of being true.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20699858 - 10/13/14 11:24 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>> How do you know?

There has not been any evidence of non-corporeal consciousness which has been shown legitimate by peer review, and there is no indication that any such evidence is imminent.  The idea of non-corporeal consciousness is the subject of speculation, far-flung conjecture, or outright fraud.  It is a favourite subject of charlatans. 

As for Robert Anton Wilson,

>> Scientific generalizations which have lasted a long time have high probability, perhaps the highest probability of any generalizations, but it is only Idolatry which claims none of them will ever again have to be revised or rejected. Too many have been revised or rejected in this century alone.

Fortunately, this "idolatry" has nothing to do with science.  No credible scientist insists that a given idea or insight is beyond revision or rejection, and one aspect of being a scientist frequently ignored by irrational critics is the importance of keeping an open mind.  Open-mindedness should not be allowed to metastasize into gullibility, however, as there is exactly zero progress to be found in regarding all ideas and equal to all other ideas.  Indeed, this kind of thinking leads us straight into the darkness of superstitious ignorance.

Non-corporeal consciousness is not an idea which has equal footing with corporeal consciousness, because evidence exists for the latter and not the former.  They are not equal views, and it is not rigid, "idolatrous", or otherwise closed minded to point this out.  Reasonable people distinguish between those ideas which have failed to pass empirical or logical tests, and those ideas which have been repeatedly verified by such tests.  They do not believe things or expect things only because there might exist some future scenario under which those beliefs are proven true. 

Similarly, reasonable people trust the dispassionate investigation of scientific controls, and have learned in the course of their own life experience that subjective validation, group thinking and reinforcement, confirmation bias, pareidolia, and wishful thinking always lead people away from the truth, never toward it.  Someone who understands this basic insight is not an "idolator", they are a rational, clear-thinking individual who is better qualified to explore these subjects than someone who does not understand this basic insight.  There is nothing "idolatrous" about criticizing or challenging claims which have zero or near-zero likelihood of being true.



:aweohyou:


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
    #20699911 - 10/13/14 11:47 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx] * 1
    #20699921 - 10/13/14 11:51 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Ped, I already debunked materialism a few weeks ago..pay attention!

Consciousness and what happens to it after physical death is not so open and shut as you are claiming it is.

As Rutgers University philosopher Jerry A. Fodo flatly states, “Nobody has the slightest idea how anything material could be conscious. So much for our philosophy of consciousness.”

most people, including yourself, are essentially ignoring the most significant data in the experiment..that being consciousness which persisted beyond what is supposedly medically possible. 
after 20-30 seconds of cardiac arrest, the brain shuts-down, hallucinations shouldn't be possible, let alone any consciousness whatsoever.

The brain does not dream because the brain shuts-down. This isn't dreaming, but awareness and consciousness existing beyond the brains limits, limits which are significantly reduced as death approaches via cardiac arrest and are thus easier to see.
Basically if one follows the brain as the producer of consciousness paradigm,  one must infer and conclude that as the brain shuts down, then so must consciousness shut down.

Since this experiment proves that conclusion to be false, the paradigm which spawned such a conclusion must be false as well. 

The experiment does not verify life after death rather demolishes the theory that the brain is the producer of consciousness, since this is not what is observed at time of physical death.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
    #20699930 - 10/13/14 11:53 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

So corporeal or not, the fact is consciousness persisted beyond what should have been possible.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
    #20700110 - 10/14/14 01:43 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> Consciousness and what happens to it after physical death is not so open and shut as you are claiming it is.

"Open and shut" is a misnomer.  The correct phrase would be not really open to begin with.  This is because there never has been any evidence to support the claim that consciousness persists beyond its corporeal limitations.


>> As Rutgers University philosopher Jerry A. Fodo flatly states, “Nobody has the slightest idea how anything material could be conscious. So much for our philosophy of consciousness.”

Rutgers University is an impressive institution, but Jerry A. Fodo is a philosopher and not a scientist.  Philosophers of consciousness are engaged in speculation and conjecture, and they do this as a conceptual exercise which occasionally informs avenues of scientific inquiry.  It also informs other arenas, such as politics, music, theatre, the literary and visual arts, and so on and so forth.


>> most people, including yourself, are essentially ignoring the most significant data in the experiment..that being consciousness which persisted beyond what is supposedly medically possible. 
after 20-30 seconds of cardiac arrest, the brain shuts-down, hallucinations shouldn't be possible, let alone any consciousness whatsoever.


There are reasonable, cogent explanations for this which do not include believing in magic or ghosts.


>> The brain does not dream because the brain shuts-down. This isn't dreaming, but awareness and consciousness existing beyond the brains limits, limits which are significantly reduced as death approaches via cardiac arrest and are thus easier to see.

It is more likely that the details and chronology of the account are inaccurate or incorrectly interpreted, and it is less likely that there are ghosts and magic wisps.


>> Basically if one follows the brain as the producer of consciousness paradigm,  one must infer and conclude that as the brain shuts down, then so must consciousness shut down.

This is precisely what happens in reality, where real things and events are occurring in a real sense.


>> Since this experiment proves that conclusion to be false, the paradigm which spawned such a conclusion must be false as well. 

It doesn't, and it isn't.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20700343 - 10/14/14 05:22 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Fodo is a dodo


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20700347 - 10/14/14 05:25 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
>>

The reason to doubt non-corporeal consciousness has nothing to do with my "one little experiment", and everything to do with the complete and total absence of any evidence supporting the notion of non-corporeal consciousness.




Here is evidence:
Quote:

Out Of Body Experiences Validated By Scientific Study:

A fascinating experiment was done by Dr. Charles Tart, who was a Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of California. He had also served as a Visiting Professor in East-West Psychology at the California Institute of Integral Studies, and as an Instructor in Psychiatry at the School of Medicine of the University of Virginia.  A study he published in the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research may be the most infamous OBE study ever done.

He documented the out-of-body experience of a young woman who was one of his research subjects.  She was in a room with nothing but a bed, a shelf, a clock, and an observation window where Dr. Tart observed from another room.  She also had electrical devices hooked up to her head to detect brain wave activities, which can be seen in the diagram below. []

What  makes this particular out-of-body experience remarkable is that she was able to leave her physical body as Dr. Tart watched from the other room and read a 5-digit number of 25132 off of a piece of paper that was on a shelf in the corner of the room.  The number was at a significant distance above the bed so that she would not be able to read the number even if she was standing, and she reported seeing the correct number him upon return to her physical body which remained attached to the bed as she was being watched. EEGs, REMs, and galvanic skin response were all recorded before and during her OBE which indicated a significant alteration in the readings during the time she left her body. Her OBE a good example of “veridical perception” which is where verified events are observed while in an out-of-body state.

As Dr. Tart concluded: “While the physiological data are limited by dependence on her retrospective report in correlating physiological pattern with the experience, it seems as if her out-of-body experiences occurred in conjunction with a non-dreaming, non-awake brain wave stage characterized by predominant slowed alpha activity from her brain and no activation of the autonomic nervous system. Two incidents occurring in the laboratory provide suggestive evidence that the out of-the-body experiences had parapsychological concomitants.  In summary, this brief study found a fairly clear-cut correlation between several of Miss Z’s reported OOB experiences and a physiological pattern characterized by a flattened EEG with prominent alphoid activity, no REM or skin resistance activity, and normal heart rate”

This is huge, because not only does it show that the experience of leaving your body is correlated with abnormal changes in brain-body activities, the test subject was also able to go and read a 5 digit number.  She also reported the correct positioning of the piece of paper that had the number on it, which as flat on the shelf as opposed to leaning against the wall which is what she was expecting.  By the way, the odds of guessing a 5 digit number first try are less than 1 in 59000, so to claim that she just so happened to guess it right on her first try is out of the question.

I have had 2 out-of-body experiences myself, one of which I observed real events happening in a different location in my house, so I can personally testify to their validity.  I saw exactly what my dad was doing and wearing, and I saw exactly what was on television at the time, all of which were verified to be true after I awoke.

What skeptics are really good at is leaving out pieces of evidence that they can’t explain, and point to how some scientific studies have replicated the feeling of being out-of-body by some virtual means.  There is a difference between the illusion of being somewhere else, and actually seeing real events happening in locations that your physical body has absolutely no access to.  This study is another piece of evidence that gives serious scientific credibility to the idea of a soul.

For more on veridical perception: [see rest of article and video here]



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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
    #20700802 - 10/14/14 09:14 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

reconstructive memory while returning to consciousness


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20700821 - 10/14/14 09:21 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

a string of words have taken you over my friend, and block you from really looking into what you have already agreed, at least, is a mystery

How, pray tell sir, does a person 're-construct' a sequence of numbers she claims to have seen UNLESS she did see them, in an OBE, and now remembers them so as to tell the person conducting the experiment, and get the possible response 'by GEORGE, how did she know THAT!??'

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
    #20700823 - 10/14/14 09:22 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

The thing that doesn't add up to the materialist paradigm is that 2% of participants had recall which matched with reality after cardiac arrest..

thats 40+ individuals whom had accurate recall of reality when such a thing should have been impossible.

even the CPR theory where they could piece together bits of what happened under CPR wouldn't make sense under this paradigm since by all known medical science, consciousness must cease after 30 seconds max of cardiac arrest.

--- which as the experiment shows -- definitely persisted beyond that 30 seconds as objectively verified by the 2% --

this implies that at least some of the other 46% whom reported some sort of consciousness after cardiac arrest actually had experience beyond what is medically accepted as possible as well. It does not verify it, however, and the article acknowledges that at most, what the experiment shows is that this area of study deserves more research.

Meaning they opened what supposedly should not have been opened to begin with.


Also, there is little to no evidence supporting your map of consciousness, so I wonder where all this certainty is coming from.:hatsoff:


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
    #20700895 - 10/14/14 09:42 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

And so, by a twist of fate it would seem, the continued holder of said materialist paradigm when it comes to consciousness MUST admit to some sort of 'magic' happening within the brain allowing it to 'dream' while having no oxygen/blood-flow.

This logical admittance destroys the paradigm as well, since the admittance of 'magic' happening ultimately puts this paradigm as less believable than most, because it must come up with the same unlikely stories as the rest of them explaining anomalies away--

losing its once supposedly evident valor.
But I mean, come on, most serious thinkers already knew that such newtownian realities are not objective.
Since equating mind and brain is irrational as listening to music on a radio, smashing the radio’s receiver, and thereby concluding that the radio was producing the music.

Its much more likely consciousness works in accordance with quantum theory than with the mechanical, materialistic, Newtownian point of view which you are laying out here as the rigid truth of the matter.
That consciousness is 'non-local' where the brain is 'local'.

If you were to look at yourself from an objective viewpoint, you might notice how your certainty here correlates with religious nuttery.


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Edited by hTx (10/14/14 09:43 AM)

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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
    #20701230 - 10/14/14 11:33 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

accurate recall when such a thing should be impossible





this is the mysterious thing.
but
it does not prove OBE
it just signifies that a certain percentage of people who have flat-lined, know some details in the room around them when they return to consciousness.

one way to know something might be that they have actually been floating around in an undefined dimension but could see this dimension - that is the classic explanation which requires several leaps of faith and has no scientific support.

another way to know something is to reconstruct it totally from cues that are perceived in a flash upon rousing. This is normal and we are perfectly capable of reconstructing most of the details in most of the reported OBE's upon awakening, And since we are changing state of mind from unconscious, to conscious, the likelihood that synthetic transformations will be integrated, such as flying around the room etc. are quite high - it is a very stoned experience.

BUT

how did the Numeric sequence penetrate the veil???

this is the mysterious element, much more so than reconstructive memory (with or without flying)

My supposition is that the person emerging from unconsciousness, (in a very stoned state), may be in the best frame of mind to receive "telepathy" from excited individuals in the room who may be broadcasting the numeric sequence.

telepathic cue reception (from an excited witness in the room) is also a huge leap,
but it is a smaller and more reasonable step than proposing a complete other dimension,
and a complete undiscovered reality in support of mythological after death scenarios.

So declaring that this single point effectively defies the known truth of reconstructive memory and therefore proves dis-corporeal consciousness after death, is not credible even if a distinguished professor emeritus is involved.

All the same, numeric sequence retention is an unlikely reality especially in circumstances that are life threatening, and the reporting of that part of the stories might be compromised.


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Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
    #20701805 - 10/14/14 01:17 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

>> A fascinating experiment was done by Dr. Charles Tart

Who is Dr. Charles Tart?

He earned his Ph. D. in psychology from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in 1963. He is currently (2005) a Core Faculty Member at the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology (Palo Alto, California) and a Senior Research Fellow of the Institute of Noetic Sciences (Sausalito, California), as well as Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of California, Davis.

Tart is more dogmatic than most other parapsychologists on the existence of the paranormal; he repeatedly states in his publications that science has confirmed the existence of remote viewing, psychokinesis, precognition and ESP and attacks those who are skeptical of such phenomena. He usually sets up straw man arguments against those who he terms "materialistic skeptics" for ignoring his cited data.  He is critical of materialism and "material science" and is the author of the book The End of Materialism: How Evidence of the Paranormal is Bringing Science and Spirit Together (2009) which claims evidence from the paranormal is bringing science and spirituality together. Tart's definition of science is obviously different than the rest of the scientific community as he rejects "material science". He claims to have deep interests in Buddhism and spirituality, making it clear these things give him a bias to the paranormal data he reports on. Most of the data he reports on are made up of personal reports or testimonials; despite this he still claims they have been scientifically proven.

Even though Tart is a psychologist, he rejects psychological explanations for the paranormal. He actually believes people can remote view out of their physical bodies into the past, present, and future and that people can predict future events whilst ignoring any psychological explanation for such phenomena.

He has been criticised for ignoring natural explanations for cases of paranormal phenomena and for ignoring and rejecting the known laws of science.  Tart writes in his books that psi is real, that it is non-physical in basis and that is does not operate to known scientific laws; despite all this he still says that psi has been proven by science in repeatable experiments.  What Tart claims is contradictory and the scientific community has not yet taken his ideas seriously. If psi is non-physical then it would be metaphysical and outside of the realm of empirical science to study. Tart is one of those parapsychologists who misuses science to try and appeal to a wider audience and sell more copies of his books.

Tart has claimed that fraudulent mediums such as Eileen Garrett and Leonora Piper were genuine.  His book The End of Materialism embraces all kinds of pseudoscience and woo.

RationalWiki

The hallmarks of pseudoscience in this case are as follows:

  • Confirmation bias, seeking evidence to support a set conclusion
  • Emotional reactions to criticism ("attacks those who are skeptical")
  • Fallacious reasoning ("sets up straw man arguments")
  • Contradictory claims, accepting science and scientific methodology when it seems to support his claims, but rejecting science and its methodology as narrow and inadequate when it casts doubt on his claims

    Dr. Tart is scientifically dishonest and unreliable, and his claims are not to be taken seriously by clear-thinking individuals.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20702143 - 10/14/14 02:42 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Who is Dr. Charles Tart?




    NOW, onto: who is 'Ped'?

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
        #20702237 - 10/14/14 03:07 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> NOW, onto: who is 'Ped'?

    Ped is a 31 year old classical musician, improvist, composer, electronic music producer, poet, and essayist whose professional and scientific background includes formal studies in pharmacology and neuroanatomy.  His study of the mind and consciousness comes through four combined years of residential Buddhist training in the Tibetan and Zen traditions (thirteen total years of practice), and through extensive experimentation with psychedelic and dissociative agents over the past decade.  This multidisciplinary approach has guided him toward a rational, evidence-based investigation of consciousness, psychology, psychiatry, and related subjects, and it has disposed him toward an ardent factual rigour in the face of misguided pseudoscience and its negative social consequences.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
        #20702246 - 10/14/14 03:08 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Also the leap which you view as greater is actually on equal terms with the telepathic one according to certain interpretations of quantum mechanics and are a natural phenomena, what one would expect to happen as a consequence of the theories interpretations, and since these interpretations are experimentally verified, the leap you write of lies more in the falling of one paradigm and subsequent jump to a better fitting one than of any sort of the creating of magical dimensions and faith without science.

    The descriptions of supposed NDE and persisting consciousness post death fall in line with modern quantum theory.
    The description of consciousness ending with the brain falls in line with Newtonian physics.
    Newtonian physics has sense been proven to be a simple surface scratch of actual occurrence (see: relativity, quantum mechanics).


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
        #20702247 - 10/14/14 03:08 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Ped is one of the best of us.

    (and he has not allowed his mind to get dull)


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20702251 - 10/14/14 03:09 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    This seems like a tautological thing.  If you're conscious, by definition, you're not (yet) dead. Is there any indication here one should think that it means anything more than that someone declared death before all neurological activity ceased?

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
        #20702326 - 10/14/14 03:23 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ped said:
    >> NOW, onto: who is 'Ped'?

    Ped is a 31 year old classical musician, improvist, composer, electronic music producer, poet, and essayist whose professional and scientific background includes formal studies in pharmacology and neuroanatomy.  His study of the mind and consciousness comes through four combined years of residential Buddhist training in the Tibetan and Zen traditions (thirteen total years of practice), and through extensive experimentation with psychedelic and dissociative agents over the past decade.  This multidisciplinary approach has guided him toward a rational, evidence-based investigation of consciousness, psychology, psychiatry, and related subjects, and it has disposed him toward an ardent factual rigour in the face of misguided pseudoscience and its negative social consequences.




    But who are you really? :nicesmile:


    --------------------
    "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20702405 - 10/14/14 03:36 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> But who are you really?

    :youcaughtme:

    In his private life, Ped struggles with drug addiction and bipolar II disorder, two adversities which, though recently brought under effective management, have nonetheless left him without an appreciable income, without career prospects, and a growing infatuation with the peaceful solitude of a hermit's lifestyle.  As such, it is likely that Ped will mysteriously vanish from these boards one day, never to be seen or heard from again because he is living in a tinyhome situated deep in Canada's boreal forest, where he is growing marijuana as a layperson in the Soto Zen tradition.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20702442 - 10/14/14 03:44 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Ped, have you had an NDE or OBE yourself (though of course you will not probably describe it as such)? If so could you describe the most powerful experience you have had

    Edited by zzripz (10/14/14 03:45 PM)

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20702452 - 10/14/14 03:47 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Deeper...


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: liquidlounge]
        #20702486 - 10/14/14 03:54 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    liquidlounge said:
    Deeper...



    Yeah.

    Ped, who are you?

    You are not your accomplishments or what happened to you. You are not your response to what happened to you.
    So get on with it, who are you, really?


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20702506 - 10/14/14 03:58 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ped said:
    >> But who are you really?

    :youcaughtme:

    In his private life, Ped struggles with drug addiction and bipolar II disorder, two adversities which, though recently brought under effective management, have nonetheless left him without an appreciable income, without career prospects, and a growing infatuation with the peaceful solitude of a hermit's lifestyle.  As such, it is likely that Ped will mysteriously vanish from these boards one day, never to be seen or heard from again because he is living in a tinyhome situated deep in Canada's boreal forest, where he is growing marijuana as a layperson in the Soto Zen tradition.





    I wasn't expecting a serious reply.  Personally that will be a sad day for me when you disappear. I'm a romantic at heart and have trouble with letting go of good things. I'm plagued by an undefined nostalgia for something that likely never really existed.  As another loner on this strange rock I find the few kindred souls I've met here to be the closest thing to family I have experienced outside of my dogs. (there are a few others in my life outside of here too but mostly scattered by the winds of time)

    I keep having this fantasy of a gathering from here out in the Alvord desert in the rain shadow of the Steens Mountains in Eastern Oregon's corner of the Great Basin.  Our own little Burning Man without all the fanfare.  It's likely going to stay in the realm of fantasy but if you ever get down this way I have a spare room for a few days.


    --------------------
    "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
        #20702522 - 10/14/14 04:01 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> Ped, have you had an NDE or OBE yourself (though of course you will not probably describe it as such)? If so could you describe the most powerful experience you have had

    As a child, I would frequently lapse into dissociative states which often carried the hallmarks of OBE's and NDE's.  Specifically, as a child I took it as normal to float out of my body when falling asleep, and in the course of those experiences I would encounter tunnels, bright lights, visions of radiant beings, and so forth.  These episodes had largely subsided toward the end of my adolescence, forming the basis for my embroilment with dissociative addiction.

    Later, an MRI revealed abnormal projections originating in my thalamus, and some structural irregularities in my basal ganglia.  These two circumstances likely have a genetic component, and likely have a functional role in my chromesthesia (and my musicianship in general), and probably contributes to the substrate of my mood disorder.  The intricate relationship between the thalamus and the hippocampus has a primary role in the interpretation of sensory data, memory allocation and recall, as well as spatial orientation, three concerted neurological functions which are specifically relevant to the emergence of perceptual distortions typically assigned to the acronyms OBE and NDE.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20702525 - 10/14/14 04:02 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    hTx said:
    Quote:

    liquidlounge said:
    Deeper...



    Yeah.

    Ped, who are you?

    You are not your accomplishments or what happened to you. You are not your response to what happened to you.
    So get on with it, who are you, really?




    That's always an unknown. He shared what most people can relate to with great honestly imo. You can't expect him to share what he cannot know.


    --------------------
    "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
    Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20702533 - 10/14/14 04:04 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Where does his issues stem from? What relationship does he have to people? Has he done any bad or wrong doings in his life? such depth, par example.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20702540 - 10/14/14 04:05 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> It's likely going to stay in the realm of fantasy but if you ever get down this way I have a spare room for a few days.

    It's a shame this wasn't mentioned back in 2012, as I passed right through Oregon on my way up from California at around this time of year, after having spent the summer living the forest growing marijuana as a layperson in the Soto Zen Buddhist tradition.  If I ever find myself anywhere near Oregon again in the future, I will be certain to drop you a line, as I've always found a kindred spirit in the content of your posts.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20702550 - 10/14/14 04:07 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    I'm plagued by an undefined nostalgia for something that likely never really existed. 




    Right now I have a hankering for some Romulan ale.


    --------------------

    Edited by OrgoneConclusion (10/14/14 06:53 PM)

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20702551 - 10/14/14 04:07 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    :strokebeard:

    :lol:

    just kidding.

    but yeah, your claim of evidence in support of the materialism POV surrounding consciousness is fallacious..

    your whole argument here is null.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: liquidlounge]
        #20702602 - 10/14/14 04:16 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    liquidlounge said:
    Where does his issues stem from? What relationship does he have to people? Has he done any bad or wrong doings in his life? such depth, par example.




    You really expect him to give an in depth account of his life here?  I wouldn't nor would I recommend it to anyone.


    --------------------
    "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20702604 - 10/14/14 04:17 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> You are not your accomplishments or what happened to you. You are not your response to what happened to you. So get on with it, who are you, really?

    Please.  I do not require some quasi-profound pseudo-koan from you or anyone, as I probably spend more hours absorbed in the writings of people like Alan Watts than most people spend at their full time jobs.  After thirteen years probing this question, I've come to understand that pursuing its answer is not unlike pursuing the horizon: it is a wasted effort which yields identical results to abandoning the effort entirely.


    >> Where does his issues stem from?

    My issues anomalous experiences stem from structural abnormalities which have been a component of my neuronal substrate since birth.


    >> What relationship does he have to people? Has he done any bad or wrong doings in his life? such depth, par example.

    While I am comfortable divulging the plain reality of my experiential background with others, I am not interested in indulging any idle, voyeuristic, and ultimately self-interested curiosities about my character and/or deeds.  It is sufficient to say that my life experience is probably quite similar to that of the average individual on these forums, and that any dissimilarities thereof stem from the relative intensity with which those experiences have unfolded.

    This relative intensity is adequately explained in neurological terms, and is neither clarified nor helped by introducing supernatural speculations, as such speculations are completely devoid of pragmatic value.


    --------------------


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    Edited by Ped (10/14/14 04:27 PM)

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20702663 - 10/14/14 04:29 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Quote:

    liquidlounge said:
    Where does his issues stem from? What relationship does he have to people? Has he done any bad or wrong doings in his life? such depth, par example.




    You really expect him to give an in depth account of his life here?  I wouldn't nor would I recommend it to anyone.



    Here's your words:

    That's always an unknown. He shared what most people can relate to with great honestly imo. You can't expect him to share what he cannot know.

    To which I responded:

    Where does his issues stem from? What relationship does he have to people? Has he done any bad or wrong doings in his life? such depth, par example.


    --------------------
    As far as I assume to know...

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: liquidlounge]
        #20702695 - 10/14/14 04:36 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> Where does his issues stem from? What relationship does he have to people? Has he done any bad or wrong doings in his life? such depth, par example.

    I have furnished frank answers to questions about my experiential background.  This does not constitute permission to speculate about my relationships, or my "bad or wrong doings".  Just like everyone else on the face of the planet, I have had good relationships and bad, good friends and bad, and I have made many decisions that I later came to regret.  These realities are part of life, and have exactly zero bearing on the question of non-corporeal consciousness, itself the actual subject matter of this thread.

    Discussions about the endogenous dissociative episodes of my early youth are relevant because of their neuronal substrate, and because they clarify the experiential basis underlying my views on the subject at hand.  If you are a respectful, dignified person, you will refrain from colouring outside these lines any further.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: liquidlounge]
        #20702786 - 10/14/14 04:50 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    What Ped just said.


    --------------------
    "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
    Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20702815 - 10/14/14 04:55 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    by being impeccable you are an excellent example.
    when I say one of us, I mean I would like to be one of whatever you are one of, not really but implicitly - which is to say, good work.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
        #20702834 - 10/14/14 04:58 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    That goes for me also. :thumbup:  (once I figured out what you said. :lol:)


    --------------------
    "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
    Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20702917 - 10/14/14 05:14 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    :cookiemonster:

    but RGV, he is wrong with certainty.

    ..much like diploid.

    :curbyourenthusiasm:


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx] * 1
        #20703034 - 10/14/14 05:40 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    There's a lot of people making a religion out of scientism in this thread.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20703041 - 10/14/14 05:41 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> but RGV, he is wrong with certainty.

    The actual error is in stating something as true or probable when there is exactly zero evidence of its truth or probability.  Flatly insisting upon the authority of the evidence is not the same as obstinate certitude.  Ignoring the evidence is.

    Examine yourself more carefully.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
        #20703056 - 10/14/14 05:45 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    /

    Edited by Johnny Depp (12/20/14 03:13 AM)

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
        #20703064 - 10/14/14 05:46 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> There's a lot of people making a religion out of scientism in this thread.

    "Scientism" does not exist anywhere except in your imagination, and your attempts to equate legitimate scientific inquiry with dogmatic superstition are fallacious in nature.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20703090 - 10/14/14 05:52 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ped said:
    >> but RGV, he is wrong with certainty.

    The actual error is in stating something as true or probable when there is exactly zero evidence of its truth or probability.  Flatly insisting upon the authority of the evidence is not the same as obstinate certitude.  Ignoring the evidence is.

    Examine yourself more carefully.



    Right, so why are you stating something as true or probable when there is exactly zero evidence of its truth or probability?

    Flatly insisting upon the authority of the evidence is not the same as obstinate certitude.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor] * 1
        #20703092 - 10/14/14 05:52 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    In fact, that's just given me an idea: people are driven into the absolute faith-based nature of scientism after previous unpleasant exposure to people making up shit, in the same way that people are often driven into the arms of religion from a lack of certainty in their lives.

    What I have often noticed in the posts of the science worshippers at the Shroomery is a deep, visceral fear of the human unconscious and the things lurking in it. This sometimes manifests as a sneering dismissal of everything non-materialist.

    I think people who fear the unconscious mind are more likely to be pushed into adopting a materialist perspective to reduce the anxiety levels. Because so many religious/mystical ideas are clearly delusions, it doesn't take a big step to conclude that they all are.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20703102 - 10/14/14 05:55 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> The authors had their conclusions pretty scientific by saying the traditional idea of what NDE entails needs to be redefined, and that more unbiased studies should be done.  I can get behind that.  But saying that's evidence of consciousness after death or saying you outright believe that consciousness isn't connected to our brains just makes me think: :bs:

    BS indeed.  Pantomiming the mere appearance of scientific rigour is a hallmark of pseudoscience.  Pseudoscience papers and their authors pour tremendous effort into the appearance of scientific credibility, but they have no special interest or respect for actual scientific methodology.


    >> I certainly see how it could be possible that the small amount of blood making its way through the brain could produce some brain activity.  That's an interesting hypothesis imo.  I'd much rather read a report on that than the next NDE study.

    Since ghosts, magic wisps, and other made-up phenomenon are fundamentally removed from the environs of observation, your hypothesis is infinitely more probably and more useful than any hypothesis involving non-corporeal awareness.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20703105 - 10/14/14 05:56 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ped said:
    >> There's a lot of people making a religion out of scientism in this thread.

    "Scientism" does not exist anywhere except in your imagination, and your attempts to equate legitimate scientific inquiry with dogmatic superstition are fallacious in nature.




    yes and it's been repeated countless times here.  Only when someone refuses to hear could they have missed this.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20703142 - 10/14/14 06:06 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> Right, so why are you stating something as true or probable when there is exactly zero evidence of its truth or probability?

    This has not occurred anywhere except in your imagination.


    >> people are driven into the absolute faith-based nature of scientism after previous unpleasant exposure to people making up shit

    >> I think people who fear the unconscious mind are more likely to be pushed into adopting a materialist perspective to reduce the anxiety levels.

    Scientism does not exist, and science is not a faith-based exercise.  This is true regardless of whether or not you believe it is true.  Furthermore, people who pollute the world with made-up nonsense are distasteful in general.  No especially unpleasant experience is required to identify and relate to this appropriately, nor is any fear or anxiety necessary to become annoyed with pseudoscience when it appears.


    >> What I have often noticed in the posts of the science worshippers at the Shroomery is a deep, visceral fear of the human unconscious and the things lurking in it.  This sometimes manifests as a sneering dismissal of everything non-materialist.

    This is wholly self-righteous, wholly self-serving nonsense, and is easily defeated by pointing out that people at the Shroomery are not strangers to what lurks in the human unconscious.  Speaking as someone who grew up experiencing bizarre, all-consuming and often transcendent episodes, I can assure you that any "deep, visceral fear of the human unconscious" was thoroughly confronted and mollified well before I reached my preadolescence. 

    Sneering dismissal is an appropriate response to bullshit.  Where there is sneering dismissal, there is usually bullshit undergoing sneering dismissal.



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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 2
        #20703144 - 10/14/14 06:07 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ped said:
    >> There's a lot of people making a religion out of scientism in this thread.

    "Scientism" does not exist anywhere except in your imagination, and your attempts to equate legitimate scientific inquiry with dogmatic superstition are fallacious in nature.




    It's a fact that "legitimate scientific inquiry" is dogmatic in nature. This is evident to anyone who has ever taken a university paper in the history or philosophy of science. I've taken a few, and it's an eye-opener to see a scientist admit that his approach to finding the truth really does carry with it a mass of assumptions, dogmas and limitations.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
        #20703171 - 10/14/14 06:13 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Moreover, I'm not equating scientific enquiry with dogmatic superstition. It requires no superstition to believe that what appears to be a material world is really just a projection of consciousness similar to a dream or a trip.

    If anything, the onus is on the materialists to prove that matter can generate consciousness. Wild speculations about microtubules are exactly the kind of woo that the scientists here are rightly sneeringly dismissive of in other areas.


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    Edited by viktor (10/14/14 06:14 PM)

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
        #20703178 - 10/14/14 06:14 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> It's a fact that "legitimate scientific inquiry" is dogmatic in nature.

    The opposite is the reality.


    >> This is evident to anyone who has ever taken a university paper in the history or philosophy of science. I've taken a few, and it's an eye-opener to see a scientist admit that his approach to finding the truth really does carry with it a mass of assumptions, dogmas and limitations.

    If you have not realized that such any admission illustrates how scientific methodology reliably detects and appropriately sheds its assumptions, dogmas, and limitations, it means you are yet to undergo an eye-opener on the subject.


    >> It requires no superstition to believe that what appears to be a material world is really just a projection of consciousness

    Insofar as our subjective experience is the result of neurologically interpreted sensory data and recall, it certainly has the qualities and attributes of a dream state.  The physical world is not, however, functionally involved in the phenomenology of consciousness, and any supposition to the contrary is superstitious in nature.  We know this is true because the evidence indicates it is true.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
        #20703188 - 10/14/14 06:17 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ped said:
    If you have not realized that such any admission illustrates how scientific methodology reliably detects and appropriately sheds its assumptions, dogmas, and limitations, it means you are yet to undergo an eye-opener on the subject.




    Scientific methodology reliably detects and appropriately sheds some of its assumptions, dogmas and limitations. Others are built into the very nature of scientific methodology itself, which is not something to be worshipped.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20703302 - 10/14/14 06:43 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> What I have often noticed in the posts of the science worshippers at the Shroomery is a deep, visceral fear of the human unconscious and the things lurking in it.  This sometimes manifests as a sneering dismissal of everything non-materialist.


    Hardly true in my case.  These forums find me probing for for fears to bring them to light for examination.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
        #20703308 - 10/14/14 06:44 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Others are built into the very nature of scientific methodology itself,

    Which are?


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20703377 - 10/14/14 06:58 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    hTx said:
    :cookiemonster:

    but RGV, he is wrong with certainty.

    ..much like diploid.

    :curbyourenthusiasm:



    diploid is one of us too
    or I would wish (blah blah blah...)
    not to confuse you with the facts or anything


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: redgreenvines]
        #20703410 - 10/14/14 07:04 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Diploid is actually two of us.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20703459 - 10/14/14 07:18 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    >> What I have often noticed in the posts of the science worshippers at the Shroomery is a deep, visceral fear of the human unconscious and the things lurking in it.  This sometimes manifests as a sneering dismissal of everything non-materialist.


    Hardly true in my case.  These forums find me probing for for fears to bring them to light for examination.




    This forum is good for that. The nature of a drug forum is that people have been forced to confront some massive existential questions because of the broader perspective of consciousness they have.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
        #20703544 - 10/14/14 07:36 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Plus I wouldn't really call myself a science worshiper.  I know the value of the scientific method however.  Humans have survived as well as we have due to using the scientific method from the time we found a way to make our own fire.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
        #20703605 - 10/14/14 07:56 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    OrgoneConclusion said:
    Diploid is actually two of us.



    is that a fact?


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20703655 - 10/14/14 08:06 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Plus I wouldn't really call myself a science worshiper.  I know the value of the scientific method however.  Humans have survived as well as we have due to using the scientific method from the time we found a way to make our own fire.




    Yeah I think we would be close to barbarians, if not animals, were it not for the use of the scientific method through human history, and probably even prehistory.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
        #20704223 - 10/14/14 10:14 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Well, with regards to Peds absence of response to what i see are the most vital points to the string of logic supporting such open and shut cases of consciousness, I (and many other followers of basic logic) must conclude that Peds ideas are false.

    Since the conclusions drawn from reality are inherently and experimentally false based on the description Ped tries to peddle as truth.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
        #20704261 - 10/14/14 10:25 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    viktor said:
    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Plus I wouldn't really call myself a science worshiper.  I know the value of the scientific method however.  Humans have survived as well as we have due to using the scientific method from the time we found a way to make our own fire.




    Yeah I think we would be close to barbarians, if not animals, were it not for the use of the scientific method through human history, and probably even prehistory.




    Really everyone uses it in daily life.  Some not as skillfully as others due to personal issues but that's to be expected. We is not perfect and we can't dis the method for that.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20704392 - 10/14/14 10:52 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> Well, with regards to Peds absence of response to what i see are the most vital points to the string of logic supporting such open and shut cases of consciousness, I (and many other followers of basic logic) must conclude that Peds ideas are false.

    >> Since the conclusions drawn from reality are inherently and experimentally false based on the description Ped tries to peddle as truth.

    I recommend that you consider visiting a therapist to address the insecurity underlying these ridiculous remarks.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander] * 2
        #20704605 - 10/14/14 11:45 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Quote:

    viktor said:
    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Plus I wouldn't really call myself a science worshiper.  I know the value of the scientific method however.  Humans have survived as well as we have due to using the scientific method from the time we found a way to make our own fire.




    Yeah I think we would be close to barbarians, if not animals, were it not for the use of the scientific method through human history, and probably even prehistory.




    Really everyone uses it in daily life.  Some not as skillfully as others due to personal issues but that's to be expected. We is not perfect and we can't dis the method for that.




    Perhaps oddly it is the scientific method that led me to the belief that the physical world is a projection of consciousness. I asked myself, beginning a rational enquiry, what I really knew for certain and the only thing was that  I was conscious. I did not know for certain that the expiration of a physical body ought to affect this, and had no reason to based on the evidence.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
        #20704618 - 10/14/14 11:48 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    /

    Edited by Johnny Depp (12/20/14 03:13 AM)

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Johnny Depp]
        #20704646 - 10/14/14 11:55 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> High-frequency neurophysiological activity in the near-death state exceeded levels found during the conscious waking state. These data demonstrate that the mammalian brain can, albeit paradoxically, generate neural correlates of heightened conscious processing at near-death.

    Outstanding.

    :raisemyglass:


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
        #20704779 - 10/15/14 12:42 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Perhaps oddly it is the scientific method that led me to the belief that the physical world is a projection of consciousness. I asked myself, beginning a rational enquiry, what I really knew for certain and the only thing was that  I was conscious. I did not know for certain that the expiration of a physical body ought to affect this, and had no reason to based on the evidence.

    Well isn't it a leap of faith to go from only knowing for sure that you are conscious to a belief that the physical world is a projection of that consciousness?  If you had no reason to believe that you need a physical body for conscious you have no reason also to believe that you have it without one.  You should be agnostic on the whole issue.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20704834 - 10/15/14 01:08 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> If you had no reason to believe that you need a physical body for conscious you have no reason also to believe that you have it without one.  You should be agnostic on the whole issue.

    This is the natural conclusion, and nothing further needs to be said about it.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20704853 - 10/15/14 01:23 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Well isn't it a leap of faith to go from only knowing for sure that you are conscious to a belief that the physical world is a projection of that consciousness?




    Not once you've had a look at the alternatives. One of the strangest of which is that natural selection, a ruthlessly efficient process, would produce a trait (i.e. consciousness) which (let's face it) only lowers a person's chance of survival. Yet a trait shared by at least billions of people, many millions of whom are driven every year to suicide by it.

    Because I believe in evolution by natural selection, it appears to me that consciousness is something that has occurred outside of natural laws.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
        #20704905 - 10/15/14 02:07 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Consciousness is the void. Will there not be nothing after you're gone?

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
        #20704925 - 10/15/14 02:29 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    viktor said:
    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Well isn't it a leap of faith to go from only knowing for sure that you are conscious to a belief that the physical world is a projection of that consciousness?




    Not once you've had a look at the alternatives. One of the strangest of which is that natural selection, a ruthlessly efficient process, would produce a trait (i.e. consciousness) which (let's face it) only lowers a person's chance of survival. Yet a trait shared by at least billions of people, many millions of whom are driven every year to suicide by it.

    Because I believe in evolution by natural selection, it appears to me that consciousness is something that has occurred outside of natural laws.





    Hardly convincing since humans have been immensely successful on this planet. And how many dogs commit suicide?  Are you saying they are not conscious?  I really have no idea what you are talking about here. You've totally lost me as to  your reasoning process.  Can you clarify?


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Johnny Depp]
        #20704932 - 10/15/14 02:38 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    what I find appalling is that in excitingly using this 'lab report' to try and prove peoples NDEs are meaningless you have no thoughts whatsoever for the poor animals under the cold mean heartless gaze of the soul-dead whitecoats. THAT is what I find shocking.
    And I am not just picking on you, I have heard people in the psychedelic research community say how they support 'animal testing' to 'be accepted in the scientific community'.

    I am not trying to derail this thread into an anti-vivisectionist discussion but just letting you know how I feel about when 'experiments' (TORTURE) on animals are used as 'evidence' etc.

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20704938 - 10/15/14 02:43 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Quote:

    viktor said:
    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Well isn't it a leap of faith to go from only knowing for sure that you are conscious to a belief that the physical world is a projection of that consciousness?




    Not once you've had a look at the alternatives. One of the strangest of which is that natural selection, a ruthlessly efficient process, would produce a trait (i.e. consciousness) which (let's face it) only lowers a person's chance of survival. Yet a trait shared by at least billions of people, many millions of whom are driven every year to suicide by it.

    Because I believe in evolution by natural selection, it appears to me that consciousness is something that has occurred outside of natural laws.





    Hardly convincing since humans have been immensely successful on this planet. And how many dogs commit suicide?  Are you saying they are not conscious?  I really have no idea what you are talking about here. You've totally lost me as to  your reasoning process.  Can you clarify?




    It's possible that dogs are more conscious than us, and so not given to the kind of vanity and arrogance than often precludes a human suicide :shrug:


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
        #20704943 - 10/15/14 02:44 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    and that fact makes your case clearer for me?


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
        #20704945 - 10/15/14 02:45 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    zzripz said:
    what I find appalling is that in excitingly using this 'lab report' to try and prove peoples NDEs are meaningless you have no thoughts whatsoever for the poor animals under the cold mean heartless gaze of the soul-dead whitecoats. THAT is what I find shocking.
    And I am not just picking on you, I have heard people in the psychedelic research community say how they support 'animal testing' to 'be accepted in the scientific community'.

    I am not trying to derail this thread into an anti-vivisectionist discussion but just letting you know how I feel about when 'experiments' (TORTURE) on animals are used as 'evidence' etc.





    You know what. I agree.


    --------------------
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    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20704950 - 10/15/14 02:50 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Scientism does not exist, and science is not a faith-based exercise.  This is true regardless of whether or not you believe it is true.  Furthermore, people who pollute the world with made-up nonsense are distasteful in general.  No especially unpleasant experience is required to identify and relate to this appropriately, nor is any fear or anxiety necessary to become annoyed with pseudoscience when it appears.




    Before I go on about SCIENTISM Let me ask you something: OK you said you were into Buddhism, Zen, and Alan Watts? Well Alan Watts had a HUGE influence on my life. When I was 15, I was turned onto LSD, and had quite a few very powerful life-changing trips that year!! As you can imagine, being so young, and this culture not offering any real deep support for a kid struggling with that, AND adolescence, and other personal problems, I HAD to try and integrate by myself and went through loads of books searching for some answers, and ONE book that really got me was Alan Watts' little book Cloudhidden Whereabouts Unknown (you got it?) What I loved was how he communicated in an unpretentious way, and very poetically, with a sense of humour. I loved how he explained the polar-relational nature of reality. How you cannot have black without white, pleasure without pain, life without death. in fact, you cannot KNOW one extreme of experience without the other, because in reality they are not two separate 'things' (which the conceptual mind splits and then believes this is reality) but dynamic processes. I nearly read the book in the shop lol

    So, Ped, are you saying that Buddhism, and Zen and Alan Watts would not be open to a reality of OBEs and NDEs. IE the understanding that consciousness or awareness can feel outside the body, and see and hear etc?

    I will leave about scientism for the moment

    Edited by zzripz (10/15/14 02:53 AM)

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20704953 - 10/15/14 02:52 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Here's another way of looking at it.

    Is is certainly possible that consciousness can create matter? Yes, it is certainly possible, because consciousness could have as one of its properties that matter only comes into existence when observed by consciousness.

    Is it certainty possible that matter can create consciousness? No, it is not certainly possible, because it may be that the laws of physics, chemistry or biology can rule it out and we don't know it yet. It's possibly possible.

    On balance of probabilities, certainly possible trumps possibly possible.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
        #20704959 - 10/15/14 02:56 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    So, Ped, are you saying that Buddhism, and Zen and Alan Watts would not be open to a reality of OBEs and MEDS. IE the understanding that consciousness or awareness can feel outside the body, and see and hear etc?

    Wouldn't you have to ask them to know?  I know for myself I'm open to it being possible but that's as far as I can go without better evidence for it.  I'm still waiting for that evidence and as long as it's possible that evidence may show up I'll continue to be open to that possibility.  I believe that is also true for every "skeptic" in this thread.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz] * 1
        #20704990 - 10/15/14 03:36 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    /

    Edited by Johnny Depp (12/20/14 03:14 AM)

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20704999 - 10/15/14 03:41 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> I am not trying to derail this thread into an anti-vivisectionist discussion but just letting you know how I feel about when 'experiments' (TORTURE) on animals are used as 'evidence' etc.

    If pseudoscience cranks and their gullible followers would shut their irrational mouths about this issue, actual scientists with actual evidence-gathering methodology wouldn't be as compelled to carry out such tests in order to explore what is ultimately a ridiculous question.


    >> Before I go on about SCIENTISM

    Scientism does not exist.  See as follows:



    >> So, Ped, are you saying that Buddhism, and Zen and Alan Watts would not be open to a reality of OBEs and NDEs. IE the understanding that consciousness or awareness can feel outside the body, and see and hear etc?

    Rational, clear thinking individuals do not accept that non-corporeal consciousness is a reasonable hypothesis worthy of any serious consideration.


    >> Is is certainly possible that consciousness can create matter? Yes, it is certainly possible, because consciousness could have as one of its properties that matter only comes into existence when observed by consciousness. 

    The chronology of really-existing phenomenon is as follows:

    Birth of the sun & formation of the protoplanets >> Earth becomes a sphere >> Earth slowly accumulates water over aeons of volcanism >> Earth's climate stabilizes >> The first simple amino acids form in an electromagnetically-mediated chemical reaction >> the first proteins and self-replicating structures emerge, evolution begins >> unicellular, then multicellular life occurs >> millions of years >> complex life emerges >> millions of years >> consciousness emerges.

    This is how we know that physical reality exists before consciousness, and independently of consciousness.  Granted, the subjective experience of physical reality is limited to the abstractions of the consciousness that interprets it, but the experiential interpretations constituting the foundations of consciousness have their phenomenal locus within a vastly complex and fantastically evolved neuronal signalling array.  At the present time, this is the understanding that is supported by the evidence.  There does not exist any evidence supporting those hypotheses which contradict this understanding.


    >> it may be that the laws of physics, chemistry or biology can rule it out and we don't know it yet.

    The likelihood of this is astronomically remote, and not deserving of serious consideration until substantial evidence can be gathered to the contrary.  This evidence is not forthcoming.  Superstitious schools of thought have relied on the same fallacious reasoning and faulty methodology to support their psychogenic visions and claims, as well as the delusions or gross misapprehensions fuelling those visions and claims.  There is no indication that this has changed, is changing, or is about to change.  These parasitically irrational ideas are simply trying to remain hip with the lingo of rational discourse, because their relevance is always in danger of being crushed by the overwhelming weight of evidence and reason.


    >> It's possibly possible.

    Philosophy is interested in what's possibly possible.  Science is interested in what's actually possible.  Religion is sometimes interested in what's possibly possible, but they usually avoid the subject as much as possible.  Pseudoscience, however, is intensely interested in what's possibly possible, because that is what helps them generate web traffic, as well was revenue from book sales and public appearances.  These are, of course, their foremost loyalties.  Not the truth.


    >> On balance of probabilities, certainly possible trumps possibly possible.

    Indeed.  This is the natural conclusion.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Johnny Depp]
        #20705057 - 10/15/14 04:36 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Ilke I said. I do not want to derail this thread. Just know that I am DEAD against torturing animals OR humans and believing it is in the name of science. I find it evil

    Please bear in mind that in this supposedly 'scientific age and culture' which is supposed to be reasonable there is a continuation, from what materialists would call the 'age of superstition', the age of religion, an inquisition known as the 'war on drugs'. HENCE people are NOT free to choose certain substances they might FREELY choose to try for certain dis-eases etc they may have.
    Whereas in our very sick and irrational culture you cannot GET a patented (for PROFIT?) drug UNLESS it has been 'tested' on poor animals. And they have done the same with fuckin products you would use to clean the house and so on. It is beyond disgusting! And it stems from the belief which persists -ala Descartes--that animals are machines!

    But that is all I am going to say really. I am just letting you know how I feel about your so-called 'evidence'.

    Edited by zzripz (10/15/14 05:08 AM)

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
        #20705075 - 10/15/14 05:03 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ped said:


    If pseudoscience cranks and their gullible followers would shut their irrational mouths about this issue, actual scientists with actual evidence-gathering methodology wouldn't be as compelled to carry out such tests in order to explore what is ultimately a ridiculous question.




    lol here comes the fundamentalist lashing out. Sure sign.


    Quote:

    >> Before I go on about SCIENTISM

    Scientism does not exist.  See as follows:



    >>




    So you ever-so-rationally expect me to even SEE that utterly 'conclusive' quote that 'scientism doesn't exist' quote do you? Sorry I don't have my magnifying glass

    Quote:

    So, Ped, are you saying that Buddhism, and Zen and Alan Watts would not be open to a reality of OBEs and NDEs. IE the understanding that consciousness or awareness can feel outside the body, and see and hear etc?

    Rational, clear thinking individuals do not accept that non-corporeal consciousness is a reasonable hypothesis worthy of any serious consideration.




    OMFG is that it? One sentence? Your offa your rocker mate. Who the heck do you think you are?... Real scientific people do not even speak that way. Only those who belong to the Cult of Scientism speak like that, and you sound like one of em! Arrogant. Know-it-all. Conclusive. That is NOT science, and it is not ANY genuine exploration into the mystery which is life AND death.

    Edited by zzripz (10/15/14 05:04 AM)

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Johnny Depp] * 1
        #20705469 - 10/15/14 09:16 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Johnny Depp said:
    Quote:

    zzripz said:
    what I find appalling is that in excitingly using this 'lab report' to try and prove peoples NDEs are meaningless you have no thoughts whatsoever for the poor animals under the cold mean heartless gaze of the soul-dead whitecoats. THAT is what I find shocking.
    And I am not just picking on you, I have heard people in the psychedelic research community say how they support 'animal testing' to 'be accepted in the scientific community'.

    I am not trying to derail this thread into an anti-vivisectionist discussion but just letting you know how I feel about when 'experiments' (TORTURE) on animals are used as 'evidence' etc.




    Animals are used because ethically and legally it's impossible to use humans.  Although, if you want to volunteer I might make an exception

    Animals often exhibit similar behaviors to humans, but exaggerated.  Studying animals gives us insight into these human behaviors that could otherwise go unnoticed. 

    Animals are used to study animals.  If there weren't animals studies we wouldn't have animal surgeries, or vaccines including rabies, distemper, luekemia, leptospirosis, parainfluenza, respiratory disease etc, etc, etc. 

    animal models offer simplicity in many ways.  Less complex mammalian brains.  The discovery of the functions of neurons using giant squid.

    Animals are used for simple psyche drug screens for drug discovery. 

    Animals provide enlightenment for etiology.  Also, treatments that ameliorate diseases.

    everything we know about aggression, circadian rhythms, psychopharmacology, drug addiction, ADHD, anxiety, bipolar, OCD, learning and memory, depression, decision making, eating disorders, parkinson's disease, classical conditioning, obestiy, schizophrenia, sympathetic/parasympathetic activity, alzheimer's disease, life span development, social behavvior, sexual function, and much more STARTED with animal study.

    What I find appalling is your gross assumption about what I think about animal studies based on one fucking post.  Now I put the same accusation to you.  YOU have no thoughts whatsoever about the animals in labs.  At least not compared to me.  And the thoughts that you do have are from inappropriate anger.  Your comment is insulting, and dripping with ignorance.  You obviously let your emotions decide what you think about things, and turn off any critical thinking or learning.  With some misguided idea of scientists as being uncaring, probably because of some intuitive bias against what you consider "unnatural". 

    It's people like you that go around booby trapping laboratories.  Causing harm and fear in people who dedicate their lives to furthering human understanding.  People who weighed the good and bad, and decided that the good far outweighs the bad.  Which is the conclusion that any rational person would come to.  But then they suck it up, put their feelings aside and do what has to be done.  There are strict guidelines for how animals are treated in laboratories.  And no one wants to do any more harm than must be done.  Often the people who head these labs are extremely caring of animals.  Going out of their way to help animals and spending money they don't have to get them veternarian treatments. 

    Have you even ever set foot in a rat lab?  I didn't think so.
    And yes, I have. 

    So take your misguided, self righteous, anti-science, ignorant arguments to someone who will be fooled by them.




    When you get a consent form signed by the animal you're going to use and you and promise no suffering or demise of that animal unless they agree I'm with you brother? :thumbup:


    --------------------
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    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
        #20705627 - 10/15/14 10:10 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    /

    Edited by Johnny Depp (12/20/14 03:14 AM)

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20705669 - 10/15/14 10:21 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Ped, you keep denying facts and you completely ignored my posts which defeated every argument you presented here.

    your grasping at straws and outright lying.

    first of all, scientism is a real term.
    You, showing ardent and obvious ties to such fundamentalism, are blind to its existence.

    As blind as a born-again christian is to his own fundamentalism.
    not to be confused with 'scientology', scientism is a real term we used in my sociology class at university to describe, well, people like you.

    "scientism is belief in the universal applicability of the scientific method and approach, and the view that physical science constitutes the most authoritative worldview or most valuable part of human learning to the exclusion of other viewpoints. It has been defined as "the view that the characteristic inductive methods of the natural sciences are the only source of genuine factual knowledge and, in particular, that they alone can yield true knowledge about man and society."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism


    you also are ignoring all bits of information which prove at least your certainty in such matters as foolish.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Johnny Depp]
        #20705685 - 10/15/14 10:24 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    If you were really so against animal studies you would stop using any and all knowledge and products brought to you through animal study.  It would be pretty difficult.  You may have to move off the grid.  Of course, you would probably never have survived to this age if it weren't for the knowledge animals has brought us.  But we'll just write that off.  Starting now, you go total hippy. 

    Otherwise, you're just another hypocrite


    This is always the way this shit goes.  If you don't like nuclear energy then don't use any electricity because some of it may be generated there.  In this culture we're stuck with a lot of shit we don't like doing. So your position is we can't be against it because on some level we benefit from it.  Like the war, it may give us all some cheaper fuel so if you are against how we wage war you can't use a  car. 

    Well done. :thumbup:


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    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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    The more knowledge, the more grief.
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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 2
        #20705706 - 10/15/14 10:29 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Your weak argument claiming scientism does not exist only further shows how irrational you are being in this thread and in this forum.

    You may be able to fool most people here, but not me, such certainty on things which are simply unknown and a refusal of speculation on the grounds 'that its all irrational' are some of the most irrational behaviors I've witnessed on this site.

    then an outright denial of facts..

    :hatsoff:

    must have been on a meth binge or something, i can see the hubris oozing off the page.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx] * 3
        #20705777 - 10/15/14 10:52 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    I hope we can all agree on this:

    The most truly scientific thing one can do is have an open mind, especially on a matter like this.  The fact is we just don't know yet, despite any evidence either way.  Nothing is conclusive so far on the matter of consciousness, even regarding the established (and legitimate) framework of neuroscience.  So we can all hold strong opinions either way, but there is in truth no appropriately affirmative conclusion that can be drawn.  The technology to really say doesn't yet exist.

    We dunno.  Let us not lose sight of that, however we may feel.

    I think this has been grossly overlooked in some of the fits of pique going on in this thread.  There are scientific indicators, but no final consensus.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
        #20705838 - 10/15/14 11:10 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Yes I hope we can all agree on that as well!

    man, the certainty, cherry picking, ignorance and fucking life summary of the dude was :crazy2:
    honestly i feel like Ped has been trolling here for the past few days, as everything points to troll.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20705862 - 10/15/14 11:18 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    I hardly think that.  I think his beliefs are as genuine as yours and mine.  You or I may not like how he presents it or you may not like how I present my pov and I may think you're unreasonable but my belief is everyone here is pretty much trying for the same thing ultimately. To make sense of their world and to share their beliefs. 

    Sometimes we get disrespectful of each other and I'm certainly guilty of that at times. If I need to change anything about how I post here it's that and not that I challenge others pov.  And I'm aware of this fault in my posting and am endeavoring to change it.


    --------------------
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    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander] * 1
        #20705884 - 10/15/14 11:23 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    He will not acknowledge that his belief is a belief.

    Can't help him if he clings to certainties.

    Nothing is certain, only probable.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20705893 - 10/15/14 11:24 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    I hardly think that.  I think his beliefs are as genuine as yours and mine.  You or I may not like how he presents it or you may not like how I present my pov and I may think you're unreasonable but my belief is everyone here is pretty much trying for the same thing ultimately. To make sense of their world and to share their beliefs. 

    Sometimes we get disrespectful of each other and I'm certainly guilty of that at times. If I need to change anything about how I post here it's that and not that I challenge others pov.  And I'm aware of this fault in my posting and am endeavoring to change it.



    and also, look at you!
    :awepreciation:
    did you eat some mushrooms recently or something? :mushroom2:


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20705901 - 10/15/14 11:27 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    hTx said:
    He will not acknowledge that his belief is a belief.

    Can't help him if he clings to certainties.

    Nothing is certain, only probable.




    OK I'm going to agree with your pov here. But some beliefs have more evidence for them than others.  That's what where looking for here right, which is likely to be correct without being 100% certain?

    That and to entertain all possibilities without dismissing them out of hand.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20705913 - 10/15/14 11:32 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    hTx said:
    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    I hardly think that.  I think his beliefs are as genuine as yours and mine.  You or I may not like how he presents it or you may not like how I present my pov and I may think you're unreasonable but my belief is everyone here is pretty much trying for the same thing ultimately. To make sense of their world and to share their beliefs. 

    Sometimes we get disrespectful of each other and I'm certainly guilty of that at times. If I need to change anything about how I post here it's that and not that I challenge others pov.  And I'm aware of this fault in my posting and am endeavoring to change it.



    and also, look at you!
    :awepreciation:
    did you eat some mushrooms recently or something? :mushroom2:





    No, I just think time has worked on me and personal circumstance to let me know I'm acting in ways that I really don't respect at times. 

    I've come to the conclusion that everyone here is really trying hard to make this a world that they think is a good one to be in.  That's the new bottom line I want to look at around here and that means I need to respect them whether I agree or not. And there have been way too many times when I haven't.  I plan on changing that.  There will likely be slip ups however.:satansmoking:

    I'm thinking that at this possible late date for the human species that my increasing the stress levels of myself and others is just asshattery on my part.


    --------------------
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    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20705955 - 10/15/14 11:41 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be so up in arms about Peds posts here if it weren't for that arrogance of certainty surrounding a subject which, at the current time, is simply a mystery.
    I also did not like the sermon provided by Ped about his dedication and effort-less belief in scientism, nor did i care for his ignorance with regards to posts here which challenged his certainty on very valid grounds.



    What he is doing here is equivalent to seeing a person walk into a dark room where the person is no longer visible, and assuming knowledge of where that person is standing within the room despite not being able to see him, and then telling everyone whom tells him 'you have no way of knowing that'
    that they are being irrational.

    :lol:

    he only got as far as he did because his POV is favored by a few of us here, and that blinded a lot of us to the fact that Ped is actually being quite irrational here.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20705980 - 10/15/14 11:48 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Quote:

    hTx said:
    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    I hardly think that.  I think his beliefs are as genuine as yours and mine.  You or I may not like how he presents it or you may not like how I present my pov and I may think you're unreasonable but my belief is everyone here is pretty much trying for the same thing ultimately. To make sense of their world and to share their beliefs. 

    Sometimes we get disrespectful of each other and I'm certainly guilty of that at times. If I need to change anything about how I post here it's that and not that I challenge others pov.  And I'm aware of this fault in my posting and am endeavoring to change it.



    and also, look at you!
    :awepreciation:
    did you eat some mushrooms recently or something? :mushroom2:





    No, I just think time has worked on me and personal circumstance to let me know I'm acting in ways that I really don't respect at times. 

    I've come to the conclusion that everyone here is really trying hard to make this a world that they think is a good one to be in.  That's the new bottom line I want to look at around here and that means I need to respect them whether I agree or not. And there have been way too many times when I haven't.  I plan on changing that.  There will likely be slip ups however.:satansmoking:

    I'm thinking that at this possible late date for the human species that my increasing the stress levels of myself and others is just asshattery on my part.



    well i hope that this realization sticks, and brings you greater and sustained happiness. it is much less stressful to write off some of the cynicism which comes with life experience..it was for me anyways.

    i'm happy for you.
    :hatsoff:


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20706565 - 10/15/14 02:14 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    /

    Edited by Johnny Depp (12/20/14 03:14 AM)

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20706596 - 10/15/14 02:19 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    hTx said:
    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Quote:

    hTx said:
    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    I hardly think that.  I think his beliefs are as genuine as yours and mine.  You or I may not like how he presents it or you may not like how I present my pov and I may think you're unreasonable but my belief is everyone here is pretty much trying for the same thing ultimately. To make sense of their world and to share their beliefs. 

    Sometimes we get disrespectful of each other and I'm certainly guilty of that at times. If I need to change anything about how I post here it's that and not that I challenge others pov.  And I'm aware of this fault in my posting and am endeavoring to change it.



    and also, look at you!
    :awepreciation:
    did you eat some mushrooms recently or something? :mushroom2:





    No, I just think time has worked on me and personal circumstance to let me know I'm acting in ways that I really don't respect at times. 

    I've come to the conclusion that everyone here is really trying hard to make this a world that they think is a good one to be in.  That's the new bottom line I want to look at around here and that means I need to respect them whether I agree or not. And there have been way too many times when I haven't.  I plan on changing that.  There will likely be slip ups however.:satansmoking:

    I'm thinking that at this possible late date for the human species that my increasing the stress levels of myself and others is just asshattery on my part.



    well i hope that this realization sticks, and brings you greater and sustained happiness. it is much less stressful to write off some of the cynicism which comes with life experience..it was for me anyways.

    i'm happy for you.
    :hatsoff:





    Thank you, I appreciate that.  And I know you'll remind me I said this and help me keep on track when I slip up. :thumbup:


    --------------------
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    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20706604 - 10/15/14 02:21 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> So you ever-so-rationally expect me to even SEE that utterly 'conclusive' quote that 'scientism doesn't exist' quote do you? Sorry I don't have my magnifying glass

    I ever-so-rationally expect you to click on the image to enlarge.


    >> OMFG is that it? One sentence?

    Rational, clear-thinking people do not believe things are true apart from evidence that those things are true.  This principle applies to all people all of backgrounds.  When a Buddhist believes in things for which there is no evidence, this is every bit as incorrect as a non-Buddhist believing in things for which there is no evidence. 


    >> Only those who belong to the Cult of Scientism speak like that, and you sound like one of em!

    The "Cult of Scientism" does not exist anywhere except in the imaginations of people who want to feel as though their irrational pseudoscience is in the same category as the rational, clear-thinking science of actual scientists.


    >> Arrogant. Know-it-all. Conclusive. That is NOT science, and it is not ANY genuine exploration into the mystery which is life AND death.

    The truth is the truth regardless of whether or not you believe it is true.  That is why it is called "the truth."  The truth is that evidence-based beliefs are rational and credible, while beliefs not based in evidence are not rational and not credible.


    Tip: click to enlarge


    >> Ped, you keep denying facts and you completely ignored my posts which defeated every argument you presented here.

    I do not deny facts, your posts have not defeated any argument presented here, and if I've ignored any your posts its because I find you annoyingly obtuse, selective in your interpretation, biased in your perceptions, and unwilling or incapable of prioritizing the facts and evidence ahead of your self-serving beliefs.

    Evidence is the authority.


    >> your grasping at straws and outright lying.

    This lie is itself grasping at straws.


    >> first of all, scientism is a real term.

    I don't care, because it has exactly zero practical consequence.  You are using the umbrella term "scientism" as a heading under which you will shove any and all evidence-based arguments so that you do not actually have to question your irrational, unsubstantiated beliefs.


    >> You, showing ardent and obvious ties to such fundamentalism, are blind to its existence.

    Rational, clear-thinking people do not believe things are true apart from evidence that those things are true. 


    >> you also are ignoring all bits of information which prove at least your certainty in such matters as foolish.

    The evidence is true regardless of whether or not you believe in it.  That is why it is called "evidence."


    >> must have been on a meth binge or something, i can see the hubris oozing off the page.

    >> honestly i feel like Ped has been trolling here for the past few days, as everything points to troll.

    You need to examine yourself more carefully.


    >> He will not acknowledge that his belief is a belief.

    >> Can't help him if he clings to certainties.

    Rational, clear-thinking people do not believe things are true apart from evidence that those things are true.  The evidence is true regardless of whether or not you believe in it.  That is why it is called "evidence."


    >> Nothing is certain, only probable.

    This is of course correct, but it is unnecessary and impractical to emphasize it.


    >> Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be so up in arms about Peds posts here if it weren't for that arrogance of certainty surrounding a subject which, at the current time, is simply a mystery.

    It isn't a mystery, because the evidence indicates that consciousness is a function of a highly complex, highly dense neuronal signalling array.  There is no evidence to suggest consciousness exists apart from this array, and any belief that it does exist apart from this array is without a rational basis.  This is true until evidence is gathered to the contrary.  No such evidence has been gathered, and no such evidence is forthcoming.  It is therefore irrational for you to believe that consciousness exists apart from its neuronal substrate.  We know this is true because the evidence indicates it is true.


    >> I also did not like the sermon provided by Ped about his dedication and effort-less belief in scientism, nor did i care for his ignorance with regards to posts here which challenged his certainty on very valid grounds.

    No valid grounds have been furnished.


    >> well i hope that this realization sticks, and brings you greater and sustained happiness.

    >> i'm happy for you.

    You need to examine yourself more carefully, because your guru-mystic complex has corrupted your judgement.  All throughout this thread you have been telling people how they think and feel instead of listening to how they think and feel.  Your comportment throughout this entire thread has been obnoxiously judgemental, self-assured, and self-satisfied.  I recognize it because when I was younger and less mature, I also exhibited exactly the same comportment.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Johnny Depp]
        #20706610 - 10/15/14 02:21 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Johnny Depp said:
    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    If you were really so against animal studies you would stop using any and all knowledge and products brought to you through animal study.  It would be pretty difficult.  You may have to move off the grid.  Of course, you would probably never have survived to this age if it weren't for the knowledge animals has brought us.  But we'll just write that off.  Starting now, you go total hippy. 

    Otherwise, you're just another hypocrite


    This is always the way this shit goes.  If you don't like nuclear energy then don't use any electricity because some of it may be generated there.  In this culture we're stuck with a lot of shit we don't like doing. So your position is we can't be against it because on some level we benefit from it.  Like the war, it may give us all some cheaper fuel so if you are against how we wage war you can't use a  car. 

    Well done. :thumbup:




    yeah yeah I know.  Zzzrip just came off so passionate about his opinion.  I'm just putting it in perspective.  But you're right it's kind of a BS argument.  My position is more that if you feel so strongly about it, then there are things you can do to separate yourself from it.  There's wiggle room imo to object about the practice, yet still be a member of society.  Also, just trying to drive home the point how much we've benefited from animal study.  I think most people don't really realize.





    Of course we've benefited. That's not at issue here.  But put yourself in their place if you can and see how you'd feel about benefiting others with your suffering without your consent.


    --------------------
    "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20706653 - 10/15/14 02:30 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    hTx said:
    Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be so up in arms about Peds posts here if it weren't for that arrogance of certainty surrounding a subject which, at the current time, is simply a mystery.
    I also did not like the sermon provided by Ped about his dedication and effort-less belief in scientism, nor did i care for his ignorance with regards to posts here which challenged his certainty on very valid grounds.



    What he is doing here is equivalent to seeing a person walk into a dark room where the person is no longer visible, and assuming knowledge of where that person is standing within the room despite not being able to see him, and then telling everyone whom tells him 'you have no way of knowing that'
    that they are being irrational.

    :lol:

    he only got as far as he did because his POV is favored by a few of us here, and that blinded a lot of us to the fact that Ped is actually being quite irrational here.




    Well I'll let him speak for himself on this issue. In the past I've come up against what I've considered an attitude when debating him but I'm sure mine was worse.  I do appreciate that he thinks hard about things and he's intelligent.  I feel the same about you actually as to hard thinking and intelligence.  Your posts are often well thought out and convincing even if I'm on the other side of the debate.


    --------------------
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    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
    Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20706770 - 10/15/14 02:57 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> In the past I've come up against what I've considered an attitude when debating him but I'm sure mine was worse.  I do appreciate that he thinks hard about things and he's intelligent.  I feel the same about you actually as to hard thinking and intelligence.  Your posts are often well thought out and convincing even if I'm on the other side of the debate.

    The evidence doesn't care whether or not someone is intelligent or thinks.  Arguments are not decided by well-thought and persuasive rhetoric.  Arguments are decided by the evidence.

    The view which insists upon the existence of non-corporeal consciousness and magical realms where human ghosts float around without bodies -- this is not a view supported by the evidence. This is how we know it is not true, and that such magical beings and places do not exist anywhere except in the imaginations of those who believe these things exist.  This is not a "belief" or an "opinion", and it is not contingent upon individual attitudes, because the configuration of reality is what it is regardless of our private opinions.  I am not the authority here; the evidence is the authority here.

    The evidence indicates that any belief in non-corporeal consciousness is without a rational basis, and as such it is correct to say that individuals who embrace such beliefs do so irrationally.  This will remain statically correct until evidence to the contrary has been gathered.  No such evidence has been gathered, and there is no indication such evidence is forthcoming.  Nothing further needs to be said on this issue, and it is absurd that this thread has ballooned to multiple pages over what ought to be the most obvious and wholly natural conclusion.


    --------------------


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20706854 - 10/15/14 03:13 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Ped, you said your partial to Buddhism.

    What are your thoughts on reincarnation?


    --------------------
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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20706882 - 10/15/14 03:20 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    What are the Buddha's thoughts on reincarnation?


    --------------------
    rahz

    comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


    "The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20706905 - 10/15/14 03:26 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> What are your thoughts on reincarnation?

    There exists within Buddhist thought extraordinary compendiums of highly advanced reasoning which make a compelling case for the notion of cyclic rebirth.  Some of this reasoning concludes that the mind "inhabits" the body as though the body were a kind of guest house with windows and doors.  Other lines of reasoning understand the universe to be a dynamic matter-energy conservation engine, constantly recycling matter and energy into myriad forms, and that reincarnation refers to the process by which the really-existing matter and energy of our physical bodies is dispersed and reconstituted endlessly throughout cosmic time.

    Those systems of thought which posit the existence of non-corporeal phenomenon are, though highly sophisticated in their reasoning, ultimately incorrect.  We know this is true because these lines of reasoning are not supported by the evidence.  Those lines of reasoning which refrain from indulging in the supernatural are worthy of thorough consideration, because they do not contradict the evidence.


    Click to enlarge


    --------------------


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20706908 - 10/15/14 03:26 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ped said:
    >> In the past I've come up against what I've considered an attitude when debating him but I'm sure mine was worse.  I do appreciate that he thinks hard about things and he's intelligent.  I feel the same about you actually as to hard thinking and intelligence.  Your posts are often well thought out and convincing even if I'm on the other side of the debate.

    The evidence doesn't care whether or not someone is intelligent or thinks.  Arguments are not decided by well-thought and persuasive rhetoric.  Arguments are decided by the evidence.

    The view which insists upon the existence of non-corporeal consciousness and magical realms where human ghosts float around without bodies -- this is not a view supported by the evidence. This is how we know it is not true, and that such magical beings and places do not exist anywhere except in the imaginations of those who believe these things exist.  This is not a "belief" or an "opinion", and it is not contingent upon individual attitudes, because the configuration of reality is what it is regardless of our private opinions.  I am not the authority here; the evidence is the authority here.

    The evidence indicates that any belief in non-corporeal consciousness is without a rational basis, and as such it is correct to say that individuals who embrace such beliefs do so irrationally.  This will remain statically correct until evidence to the contrary has been gathered.  No such evidence has been gathered, and there is no indication such evidence is forthcoming.  Nothing further needs to be said on this issue, and it is absurd that this thread has ballooned to multiple pages over what ought to be the most obvious and wholly natural conclusion.





    Well welcome back to the shroomery Ped, where humans flourish rather than logic machines and where social networking is where most of the action is.  If you want only scholarly discourse and debate I suggest you find another site to play at.  You're good enough to play anywhere I'd say.  But I hope you stay and have some fun with us here.

    I'm fine if this discussion continues on any level because I can bow out whenever I want.


    --------------------
    "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20706918 - 10/15/14 03:28 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ped said:
    >> What are your thoughts on reincarnation?

    There exists within Buddhist thought extraordinary compendiums of highly advanced reasoning which make a compelling case for the notion of cyclic rebirth.  Some of this reasoning concludes that the mind "inhabits" the body as though the body were a kind of guest house with windows and doors.  Other lines of reasoning understand the universe to be a dynamic matter-energy conservation engine, constantly recycling matter and energy into myriad forms, and that reincarnation refers to the process by which the really-existing matter and energy of our physical bodies is dispersed and reconstituted endlessly throughout cosmic time.

    Those systems of thought which posit the existence of non-corporeal phenomenon are, though highly sophisticated in their reasoning, ultimately incorrect.  We know this is true because these lines of reasoning are not supported by the evidence.  Those lines of reasoning which refrain from indulging in the supernatural are worthy of thorough consideration, because they do not contradict the evidence.


    Click to enlarge





    :thumbup:  Wrong again buddha.


    --------------------
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    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
    Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
        #20706957 - 10/15/14 03:35 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Alan Watts - On Prickles and Goo


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: zzripz]
        #20707031 - 10/15/14 03:56 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    I'm familiar with Watts' prickles-and-goo philosophy.  It is a lovely sentiment and with meaningful applications, but it does not comment on the merit of evidence-based reasoning as compared to irrational reasoning in the context of this thread.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
        #20707064 - 10/15/14 04:05 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ped said:
    >> What are your thoughts on reincarnation?

    There exists within Buddhist thought extraordinary compendiums of highly advanced reasoning which make a compelling case for the notion of cyclic rebirth.  Some of this reasoning concludes that the mind "inhabits" the body as though the body were a kind of guest house with windows and doors.  Other lines of reasoning understand the universe to be a dynamic matter-energy conservation engine, constantly recycling matter and energy into myriad forms, and that reincarnation refers to the process by which the really-existing matter and energy of our physical bodies is dispersed and reconstituted endlessly throughout cosmic time.

    Those systems of thought which posit the existence of non-corporeal phenomenon are, though highly sophisticated in their reasoning, ultimately incorrect.  We know this is true because these lines of reasoning are not supported by the evidence.  Those lines of reasoning which refrain from indulging in the supernatural are worthy of thorough consideration, because they do not contradict the evidence.


    Click to enlarge




    and have you ever had the experience which they are actually drawing this reasoning from?

    I only ask because I have, and I had never even considered reincarnation to be an actual occurrence, let alone an experience. I also used to be a stoned atheist and just as sure as you are about how everything really works.
    Now I'm not sure of anything, but I have strong suspicions.

    My first LSD trip I tranced out and saw the evolution of  life within a galaxy, which showed quantum leaps in the evolution of conscious beings as I went a long the  galactic spiral towards the event horizon. When I reached the blackhole, I ceased existing for a short while before the dark split into light and the universe as we know it, I experienced the evolution of the universe all the way up to life, which I was, and I rapidly went through lifetimes of single-celled organisms and progressively complex plants and animals all the way up to becoming human for the first time and several life-times of being that before becoming myself again, dumbfounded on the couch.

    That, a long with some reading really shook me of my previous 'self' and subsequent reality, and I opted to give in to the evidence that I did not know everything and became a lot more malleable in my perception. Allowing me to look at evidence and draw conclusions but not accept them, since most of the time, as time has told us again and again, conclusions tend to be false.

    This is my beef with you.
    Not your stance, your certainty.

    the way you are drawing premature conclusions based on evidence which only you see as evidence of.

    Most non-biased scientists will admit to not knowing how consciousness works, so you claiming you do know how it works and referencing science as your champion whilst ignoring all science, shows me that you have some work to do when it comes to figuring out how to be rational.


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20707132 - 10/15/14 04:26 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    The Buddha is often taken out of context. Surely if reincarnation was synonymous with individual minds continuing on after the body he would have said so specifically. If we're making appeals to authority the Buddha is not a good reference for the mystical definitions of reincarnation.

    There will be no self evident view on reincarnation until the body dies. How can you rationalize the thoughts experienced while in a trance with what happens after you're dead? Is that really evidence?


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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: hTx]
        #20707162 - 10/15/14 04:36 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    hTx said:
    Quote:

    Ped said:
    >> What are your thoughts on reincarnation?

    There exists within Buddhist thought extraordinary compendiums of highly advanced reasoning which make a compelling case for the notion of cyclic rebirth.  Some of this reasoning concludes that the mind "inhabits" the body as though the body were a kind of guest house with windows and doors.  Other lines of reasoning understand the universe to be a dynamic matter-energy conservation engine, constantly recycling matter and energy into myriad forms, and that reincarnation refers to the process by which the really-existing matter and energy of our physical bodies is dispersed and reconstituted endlessly throughout cosmic time.

    Those systems of thought which posit the existence of non-corporeal phenomenon are, though highly sophisticated in their reasoning, ultimately incorrect.  We know this is true because these lines of reasoning are not supported by the evidence.  Those lines of reasoning which refrain from indulging in the supernatural are worthy of thorough consideration, because they do not contradict the evidence.


    Click to enlarge




    and have you ever had the experience which they are actually drawing this reasoning from?

    I only ask because I have, and I had never even considered reincarnation to be an actual occurrence, let alone an experience. I also used to be a stoned atheist and just as sure as you are about how everything really works.
    Now I'm not sure of anything, but I have strong suspicions.

    My first LSD trip I tranced out and saw the evolution of  life within a galaxy, which showed quantum leaps in the evolution of conscious beings as I went a long the  galactic spiral towards the event horizon. When I reached the blackhole, I ceased existing for a short while before the dark split into light and the universe as we know it, I experienced the evolution of the universe all the way up to life, which I was, and I rapidly went through lifetimes of single-celled organisms and progressively complex plants and animals all the way up to becoming human for the first time and several life-times of being that before becoming myself again, dumbfounded on the couch.

    That, a long with some reading really shook me of my previous 'self' and subsequent reality, and I opted to give in to the evidence that I did not know everything and became a lot more malleable in my perception. Allowing me to look at evidence and draw conclusions but not accept them, since most of the time, as time has told us again and again, conclusions tend to be false.

    This is my beef with you.
    Not your stance, your certainty.

    the way you are drawing premature conclusions based on evidence which only you see as evidence of.

    Most non-biased scientists will admit to not knowing how consciousness works, so you claiming you do know how it works and referencing science as your champion whilst ignoring all science, shows me that you have some work to do when it comes to figuring out how to be rational.




    My god I love those trips. I've had those type epic voyages and if anything they leave a crack in any certainty you have that you really even grasp a fraction of what is actually there.  So I understand your position.  I've actually been watching your posts with great interest and over time I've seen a very rapid evolution in your mindset from your first forays here.  You ask thoughtful questions at times that are difficult to answer with any certainty.  I do believe that at least on some level (we are imperfect) you do try to keep an open mind as you post here.  Believe it or not I try to also.  Like you I'm not sure of anything anymore. I think psychedelics and dreaming have made me wonder more and made me more uncertain about "reality" than anything else. And open to the possibility that others may experience things that I cannot.


    --------------------
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    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
    Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Icelander]
        #20707176 - 10/15/14 04:40 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Like you I'm not sure of anything anymore.




    You are sure that you are conscious though, aren't you?


    --------------------
    "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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    OfflinePed
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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Rahz]
        #20707184 - 10/15/14 04:42 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    >> and have you ever had the experience which they are actually drawing this reasoning from?

    Since I do not have direct access to the experience of others, it is impossible to formulate an accurate answer to this question.


    >> I only ask because I have, and I had never even considered reincarnation to be an actual occurrence, let alone an experience.

    Since you do not have direct access to the experience of others, it is not reasonable to assert that you've accessed experiences identical to the experience of deceased Buddhists.


    >> I also used to be a stoned atheist and just as sure as you are about how everything really works.

    If you believe I am sure about how everything really works, it means you have not understood my posts correctly.


    >> My first LSD trip I tranced out and saw the evolution of  life within a galaxy, which showed quantum leaps in the evolution of conscious beings as I went a long the  galactic spiral towards the event horizon. When I reached the blackhole, I ceased existing for a short while before the dark split into light and the universe as we know it, I experienced the evolution of the universe all the way up to life, which I was, and I rapidly went through lifetimes of single-celled organisms and progressively complex plants and animals all the way up to becoming human for the first time and several life-times of being that before becoming myself again, dumbfounded on the couch.

    The simplest and most rational explanation is that you were hallucinating.  The brain is an extraordinarily adaptive pattern-recognition matrix.  When it is hyper-stimulated with exogenous activating agents like LSD, it will make every effort to integrate the resulting storm of sensory and conceptual data into coherent patterns.  At the present time, this explains the entirety of the psychedelic experience.  Though the experience can at times seem cosmic and mysterious, experiences of "cosmic" and "mysterious" have their locus within the neuronal substrate of the central nervous system.  It has been observed on an fMRI, and in fact it is possible to induce cosmically mysterious experiences on command with a variety of psychological techniques.


    >> That, a long with some reading really shook me of my previous 'self' and subsequent reality

    There is no "previous self" or "subsequent reality." Today's self and today's reality are comprised entirely of yesterday's.  If you are drawing distinctions between past and present self or experience, it means you are imposing an internally-derived concept on top of reality.


    >> and I opted to give in to the evidence that I did not know everything and became a lot more malleable in my perception. Allowing me to look at evidence and draw conclusions but not accept them, since most of the time, as time has told us again and again, conclusions tend to be false.

    The pendulum will swing back toward the centre later on.


    >> This is my beef with you. Not your stance, your certainty. the way you are drawing premature conclusions based on evidence which only you see as evidence of.

    >> Most non-biased scientists will admit to not knowing how consciousness works, so you claiming you do know how it works and referencing science as your champion whilst ignoring all science, shows me that you have some work to do when it comes to figuring out how to be rational.

    If you think that I have claimed to know how consciousness works, and that I have been citing scientific legitimacy in support of this claim, it means you have not understood my posts correctly.

    The evidence indicates that consciousness is an emergent property of a complex neuronal substrate.  Until evidence has been gathered to the contrary, this is the correct view.  Disparate views not substantiated by the evidence are not deserving of practical consideration, because unverifiable beliefs always lead human beings away from the truth, never toward it.  This is the heart intention of my posts and my position on this matter.  It does not claim total knowledge; it draws a distinction between valid and invalid approaches to the pursuit of knowledge.


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    InvisibleIcelander
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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: viktor]
        #20707212 - 10/15/14 04:49 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    viktor said:
    Quote:

    Icelander said:
    Like you I'm not sure of anything anymore.




    You are sure that you are conscious though, aren't you?




    Nope, "I'm" not sure what that even means. How can "I" be sure of what "I" did not create?


    --------------------
    "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

    " All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

    With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
    The more knowledge, the more grief.
    Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped]
        #20707218 - 10/15/14 04:50 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    I never claimed I wasn't hallucinating.

    I was on LSD, I was definitely hallucinating.
    But I did gain knowledge about the universe which I had not previously known, being that star systems are progressively older as they approach the black hole at the center of every galaxy.

    Looking back I suppose it is kind of 'duh' thing to realize but I had never even thought about that before.
    The evidence also indicates that consciousness could act like a signal broadcasted to a radio (the complex neuronal substrate). You break the radio, the signal is gone.


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    Light up the darkness.

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    Offlineviktor
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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Ped] * 1
        #20707241 - 10/15/14 04:56 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Ped said:
    The chronology of really-existing phenomenon is as follows:

    Birth of the sun & formation of the protoplanets >> Earth becomes a sphere >> Earth slowly accumulates water over aeons of volcanism >> Earth's climate stabilizes >> The first simple amino acids form in an electromagnetically-mediated chemical reaction >> the first proteins and self-replicating structures emerge, evolution begins >> unicellular, then multicellular life occurs >> millions of years >> complex life emerges >> millions of years >> consciousness emerges.

    This is how we know that physical reality exists before consciousness, and independently of consciousness.




    All this makes the assumption that there is such a thing as linear time. I see no reason to accept this assumption; I don't believe in linear time.

    I expect that you won't accept that you have made an assumption here, and will continue to repeat your assertion that what is apparent to your perspective is the same thing as hard evidence.


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    "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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    Re: Evidence for Consciousness after Death [Re: Rahz]
        #20707252 - 10/15/14 04:57 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

    Quote:

    Rahz said:
    The Buddha is often taken out of context. Surely if reincarnation was synonymous with individual minds continuing on after the body he would have said so specifically. If we're making appeals to authority the Buddha is not a good reference for the mystical definitions of reincarnation.

    There will be no self evident view on reincarnation until the body dies. How can you rationalize the thoughts experienced while in a trance with what happens after you're dead? Is that really evidence?



    I never claimed it was evidence, merely that it shook me of my certainty.


    --------------------
    zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
    Light up the darkness.

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