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 Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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 Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection  [Re: PsiloKitten]
#2066108 - 11/02/03 08:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have no opinions of "hypocrisy" one way or the other. I know nothing about you, just what you post.
It is possible to love a book while disagreeing with every single philosophical principle it illustrates. There is more to a work of literature than theme. There is character, dialog, plot, setting, mood, descriptive passages, etc. I know several libbies who enjoyed Atlas Shrugged. I am an atheist and a realist and I think Immanuel Kant was an idiot, but I love Carlos Castaneda's works. They are amazing works of literature containing a lot of wisdom.
I must admit you are the first libbie I've ever encountered who said Ayn Rand was her hero, though. It's one thing to enjoy a particular literary work of an author; quite another to name as one's hero someone who is perhaps the most famous proponent of everything one publicly criticizes.
She was an atheist, your posts imply you are not.
She was an avowed enemy of the collective, your posts indicate you are not.
She was about as "right wing" as it is possible to get, your posts indicate your antipathy to right-wingers.
But hey -- it's all good. No matter how good a novel may be, it's still just a novel, right?
pinky
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 PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Phred]
#2066165 - 11/02/03 08:27 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ayn was not as right wing as you make her out to be. She was more libertarian then anything aligned to a political party of today. In truth she was an Objectivist which is very different.
She was not a proponent of everything I publically criticize, either. But yes, we do see some things differently. Although, I would like to point out that I am not a determinist Christian nor one that believes in faith alone. And Im thankful to the good lady who established a foundation that gave me a significant amount of the money that allowed me to go to college.
She is pretty intune with my anti war stance and my view of ideal govt.
"The basic social principle of the Objectivist ethics is that no man has the right to seek values from others by means of physical force ? i.e., no man or group has the right to initiate the use of physical force against others. Men have the right to use force only in self-defense and only against those who initiate its use.
Men must deal with one another as traders, giving value for value, by free, mutual consent to mutual benefit. The only social system that bars physical force from human relationships is laissez-faire capitalism. Capitalism is a system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which the only function of the government is to protect individual rights, i.e., to protect men from those who initiate the use of physical force.? Thus Objectivism rejects any form of collectivism, such as fascism or socialism. It also rejects the current ?mixed economy? notion that the government should regulate the economy and redistribute wealth."
I also agree with this completely, this is how I do believe that things should be done. But since this isnt how things are done, I adapt my conclusions to our current reality. Im not a socialist or collectivist. All in all, I do believe that all things being equal, sink or swim. But unfortunately things are not allowed to be equal, so I strive for balance.
I am also a great believer in her ideas of Reason and Rationality and the power they could have if allowed to be.
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DoctorJ
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Phred]
#2066225 - 11/02/03 08:44 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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listening to randroids converse is like listening to two fax machines talk eachother.
IT WAS A FICTIONAL STORY, PEOPLE. GET OVER IT!!!
Atlas Shrugged was so god damned repetitive (edit: and longwinded) that I had to watch channel 3 for 24 hours straight just to wipe my brain of all the bullshit dogma and propaganda in it.
Seriously, If you think fiction stories prove points about real life then don't bury your dog in the marsh behind the woods or else they may come alive without souls like in Pet Semetary.
Edited by DoctorJ (11/02/03 08:53 PM)
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,652
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 6 hours, 14 minutes
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: DoctorJ]
#2066252 - 11/02/03 08:50 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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This space for rent
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: 9/11 – The Israeli Connection [Re: lysergic]
#2066268 - 11/02/03 08:53 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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The causal effect here was Wahhabism (offical, state sanctioned hatred of the Jews and the USA)
It is wierd how the Saudi royal family owes their continued grip
on power to the fact that we give them money and weapons, yet
they allow and foment Islamic radicalism that is directed towards the
United States.
It is very common in the Middle East for Arab governments to pressure
the press into lambasting Israel and America. By doing so they
create a common enemy for the people to unite against, in order
to distract attention away from the government's tyranny and
corruption.
I sometimes wonder if the Arabs even know the extent of Islamic
radicalism. I remember seeing a PBS special where an American
journalist interviewed young Arabs. He confronted them with the
simple fact that Muslim extremists across the world seem to be
willing to intentionally target innocent civilians. And, the
September 11th hijackers were quite plainly(according to airport
security footage) Arab. You could see their jaws clench as if they
were offended that he would make such a statement. Yet guess
what...it was %100 true.
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DoctorJ
Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2066291 - 11/02/03 09:00 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Zahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
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Re: 9/11 – The Israeli Connection [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2066301 - 11/02/03 09:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I sometimes wonder if the Arabs even know the extent of Islamic
radicalism. I remember seeing a PBS special where an American
journalist interviewed young Arabs. He confronted them with the
simple fact that Muslim extremists across the world seem to be
willing to intentionally target innocent civilians. And, the
September 11th hijackers were quite plainly(according to airport
security footage) Arab. You could see their jaws clench as if they
were offended that he would make such a statement. Yet guess
what...it was %100 true.
What was "100% true"? What does any of that have to do with that guilt trip of a question towards the young Arab student?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: 9/11 – The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
#2066320 - 11/02/03 09:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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What was "100% true"?
The fact that most terrorist actions in the world today are
undertaken by Muslim extremists.
What does any of that have to do with that
guilt trip of a question towards the young Arab student
The Arab students were saying stuff like, "The men who hijacked those
planes weren't Arabs, they were Jews under the direction of Israel",
etc..etc...
He wasn't laying a guilt trip on those students. He was telling
them the plain facts after they started spouting absolute
conspiracy-theory garbage that is encouraged by Arab governments.
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Zahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
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Re: 9/11 – The Israeli Connection [Re: RandalFlagg]
#2066338 - 11/02/03 09:15 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The fact that most terrorist actions in the world today are
undertaken by Muslim extremists.
Yes - but, this has more to do with the geopolitics of the Muslim world, not the religion of Islam.
Quote:
The Arab students were saying stuff like, "The men who hijacked those
planes weren't Arabs, they were Jews under the direction of Israel",
etc..etc...
He wasn't laying a guilt trip on those students. He was telling
them the plain facts after they started spouting absolute
conspiracy-theory garbage that is encouraged by Arab governments.
Please don't assume that we've all seen this interview on PBS.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God 
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: 9/11 – The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
#2066354 - 11/02/03 09:19 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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I thnk I saw the show RandalFlagg is talking about. It was a Jewish journalist trying to discover the reason why Bin Laden attacked us. More importantly he wanted to figure out why Americans are hated in that part of the world. He wanted to discover why there were thousands of Arabs dancing in the streets.
Basically, he concluded Arabs viewed the attack as a punch in America's nose.
I wish I knew what the show was called.
The reporter often gives the American perspective on Al Jazera.
It was very good and pretty neutral. It was amazing some of the things Arabian college students thought about America and Israel.
One of the things many intelligent and sweet college students believed was Israel was responsible for Sept. 11. Many believe Jews were tipped off before Sept. 11.
It was a great documentary.
Most of these students got their information from the internet.
They valued this information higher than many Westerners because they don't spend as mush time online. They aren't yet aware of the vast amounts of misinformation available on the internet.
I'd love to know the name of the PBS Documentary, but I don't know where to begin to look.
I know I had a different view of Russians during the Cold War than I did after I traveled to Russia.
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Fiddlesticks.
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Zahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
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Re: 9/11 – The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
#2066385 - 11/02/03 09:30 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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I doubt the entire foundation of the Jewish Conspiracy is founded by internet rumours. Local Arab news papers, state-run broadcasts, etc. all play a small role into the pervading conspiracies in the Arab world (not so much the Muslim world), however much of this is widely believed because of the reputation Israel has to go 'above and beyond' for Jews world wide.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
#2066453 - 11/02/03 09:56 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes you are right Zahid.
But what I remember most from the documentary was how the college students shown, valued the information they found on the internet higher than they valued Al Jazeera.
It was surprising how even the most educated were finding misinformation and believing it as fact.
The good thing about a free press, is they are ruled by money. A free press can't afford to lie. Look at the Los Angeles Times.
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Fiddlesticks.
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monoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)
Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
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Re: 9/11 – The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
#2066463 - 11/02/03 10:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
But what I remember most from the documentary was how the college students shown, valued the information they found on the internet higher than they valued Al Jazeera.
It was surprising how even the most educated were finding misinformation and believing it as fact.
It's a common misconception that Jihadis are backwards "sand niggers". Many of them are actually very well educated and many even have degrees from western universities.There is a really good article on the psychology of suicide bombers in last month's Discover magazine.
I'll post it if I find it.
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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams
Edited by monoamine (11/02/03 10:02 PM)
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Zahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
#2066609 - 11/02/03 11:04 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Wishful thinking is subjective to anyone who experiences political tragedy, such as the contemporary Muslim world. Just as we don't take everything we see on CNN seriously, I doubt Al Jazeera is 'News you can Trust' to everyone on the peninsula. There is an unfortunate double standard towards Arabs and Muslims that ties into the clashing of the political spectrums of Judeo-Christian tradition and Islam. One world is 'industrialized', the other is based on a religious lay theocracy. 'Muslims' don't hate the west, people who have been directly, and negatively effected by the west hate it and everything it stands for. You might find Sufi responses to political Islam quite interesting.
Peace,
zahid
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
#2066692 - 11/02/03 11:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Often, people who have been wronged by own their government blame America.
America is like Microsoft to the rest of the world. I think America is hated because it has a ton of money and can't be avoided... but whenever you need it, you get the (red white and) blue screen of death.
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Fiddlesticks.
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Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
#2067286 - 11/03/03 05:06 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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"I think America is hated because it has a ton of money and can't be avoided"
maybe it all america human rights abuses, or the fact they sell the world largest ammount of weapons "torture" weapons included
or maybe its all the counrtys through history that america changed......"for their own good" when it was all about american corporations
examples:Brazil, Chile, Mexico,El Salvador etc etc etc
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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I don't hear Canada complaining.
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Fiddlesticks.
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
#2068031 - 11/03/03 01:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Then you have obviously never been to Canada...
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Rose
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Rono]
#2068145 - 11/03/03 02:09 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Not Canadians... CANADA.
If you think most Americans don't feel the same way, you're misinformed.
The views of Americans and the views of the American government often differ.
Both governments (USA and Canada) are attached at the hip, however.
America often gets blamed weather they do something or not. It feels like, we're damned if we do... damned if we don't, on a global scale. America isn't evil, in fact it is much simpler than that. It is the world's largest corporation. I've herd America controls 70% of the world's resources.
How do you think we got all those "torture" weapons ?
Simply follow the money and you'll see how America really works.
And please, don't put George Bush's face on all American citizens. Most of us didn't vote for him... well, most didn't vote at all.
(Oh, and my mom's Canadian, I have family all over the West, Especially BC... I have pictures, wanna see?)
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Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (11/03/03 02:30 PM)
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess
Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
#2068296 - 11/03/03 03:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, cause they know it would be a helluva alot easier for us to launch a preemptive strike on them, we wouldnt even have to do anything but press a few buttons.
But seriously, Canada did indeed dissent about the Iraq war.. not just the people, but the govt as well.
I think in matters of truly dissing the US, it's just better all around to let France be vocal.
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