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Offlinetykles
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Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets
    #20646206 - 10/01/14 09:00 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Hi all,

Thanks in advance for all of the wisdom that has gotten me where I am - there is so much good stuff available in the forums that I have barely ever felt the need to post!
I have a hobby basement GH (10'L by 4'W by 6'H), species I currently grow include Shiitake, King/Blue/Phoenix oysters, Lion's mane, and I'm starting to work with Black poplar, Maitake, and Hypsizygus ulmaris. When it gets colder I'll get some Enoki going too.

I have had good luck with lime soaking straw (even though I had been soaking for much shorter than the recommended 12-18 hours). I realize that most people say "supplemented sawdust must be sterilized" but have also noticed comments in the background from people reporting consistent success. I would love to be able to cold-pasteurize sawdust blocks (from fuel pellets), but when I've tried they have always turned green within a week or so.

Could someone who is successful with this technique break down for me how they do it? I am primarily just looking at adding wheat bran to hardwood sawdust pellets. Do you premix all of the dry ingredients? Mix the lime with water before hydrating? Hot vs cold water?

The best information I've found so far is in this thread

Again, thanks in advance! I love this hobby and this forum has opened so many doors for me!

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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: tykles]
    #20646612 - 10/01/14 10:15 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Get ahold of Greengills, he has quite a bit of experience with this :smile:


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Offlinecmcmushrooms
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: tykles]
    #21383529 - 03/09/15 04:55 PM (9 years, 21 days ago)

I know this post was awhile ago but I've been doing this process for the last few months and figured I'd let you know how I do it in case you were still wondering. I've done it with and without wheat bran, but I've noticed better pinning and yields with the bran added. I also do a very high spawn rate to ensure quick colonization with added supplementation.

My recipe is:
40 lb. bag pellets
4 lb. wheat bran
1 lb. gypsum
7 gal. cold water (if no bran then 5 gal)
90 g hydrated lime (i just guesstimate at this point)
10-12 lb. spawn

I mix the pellets/bran/gypsum in a 50 gal tote. mix the lime with the water and pour it in. i let it sit for 15 min (cold water will take longer to hydrate). stir it all up, and add more water if necessary (every batch is a little different). Next I mix in the spawn (lately I've been using 3 spawn bags per batch, my spawn bags are only 4 lb. ea). Then bag em up and you're all set. I stopped using filter bags for these and now use small gusseted poly bags, i just ordered 2 mil ones that were close to the dimensions of filter bags. Now i just wire-tie them and punch a few arrowheads (like a mini-strawlog).

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Offlinetykles
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: cmcmushrooms]
    #21391445 - 03/11/15 06:06 AM (9 years, 20 days ago)

This is really helpful information - thanks for sharing! I feel like the order with which I mix the ingredients is where things sometimes go wrong, but I'm sure I'm also overthinking things. GreenGills premixes the lime with the dry ingredients before hydrating and is very successful. I have been trying various combinations of things, including premixing lime and bran separately, then mixing with everything else. My bran is in a bag in the basement, and I feel like it has probably picked up a lot of mold spores and such while in storage. I am tempted to bulk sterilize the bran by itself, then store it airtight and break it out for lime-pasteurized mixes right before spawning....
Most of my oysters do fine simply because the mycelium is so aggressive. It's more of a gamble (for me) with pioppino, maitake, shiitake, etc.
Again, thanks for sharing your experience!

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Offlinecmcmushrooms
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: tykles]
    #21394327 - 03/11/15 06:13 PM (9 years, 19 days ago)

Yeah,oysters are so aggressive you can get away with it if you spawn at a high enough rate. I think using cold water also may be a factor. I originally tried this after I saw a guy up in northern VT who is growing on nothing but pellets and cold water. Completely untreated, no pasteurization whatsoever. If you search "growing mushrooms on untreated pellets" on YouTube,I'm sure you'll find it. I've done it a few times and haven't had any contams. His theory is that molds and bacteria thrive in warm wet environments so by using cold water and incubating at cooler temps, he's giving the mycelium an advantage to out compete any contams. Obviously this is for unsupplemented pellets. Pretty interesting stuff, you should def check out his website, can't remember it but there is a link in that YouTube video.

Cheers,

Chandler

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Offlinecmcmushrooms
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: tykles]
    #21394384 - 03/11/15 06:22 PM (9 years, 19 days ago)

Here are some Brat oysters grown on nothing but pellets and cold water.



Chandler

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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: cmcmushrooms]
    #21401894 - 03/13/15 11:39 AM (9 years, 17 days ago)

The pellets are heat treated by the compression heat of forming them so they are effectively sterile inside. First the heat kills everything then the lack of moisture stops anything new growing.


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Offlinemikevel
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: cmcmushrooms]
    #21404999 - 03/14/15 06:05 AM (9 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

cmcmushrooms said:
Yeah,oysters are so aggressive you can get away with it if you spawn at a high enough rate. I think using cold water also may be a factor. I originally tried this after I saw a guy up in northern VT who is growing on nothing but pellets and cold water. Completely untreated, no pasteurization whatsoever. If you search "growing mushrooms on untreated pellets" on YouTube,I'm sure you'll find it. I've done it a few times and haven't had any contams. His theory is that molds and bacteria thrive in warm wet environments so by using cold water and incubating at cooler temps, he's giving the mycelium an advantage to out compete any contams. Obviously this is for unsupplemented pellets. Pretty interesting stuff, you should def check out his website, can't remember it but there is a link in that YouTube video.

Cheers,

Chandler




I believe he uses higher than normal span rates also, 14lbs spawn to 42 pounds of dry substrate

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Offlinesans
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: mikevel]
    #21405154 - 03/14/15 07:42 AM (9 years, 16 days ago)

I just did my first grow, Pohu and golden oysters, using wood pellets and alfalfa. I added the wood pellets and eyeballed about 20% alfalfa (the dried kind you can buy at pet stores)to a pot, added water, pasteurized, then added it with my grain spawn to a 2.5 gallon bucket. Worked great and no contaminants.

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OfflineWillowHarvest
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: cmcmushrooms]
    #21410206 - 03/15/15 06:24 AM (9 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

cmcmushrooms said:
Here are some Brat oysters grown on nothing but pellets and cold water.



Chandler




That's an awesome pinset, especially with no bran.  I'm planning on trying this soon, as I'm always looking for different low/no energy teks for oyster.  I did some oyster on heat pasteurized hardwood fuel pellets (no bran) this winter and got very poor yields and pin set compared to my straw blocks.  How much did that Brat oyster block weigh, and did you estimate your yield for this tek with and without bran?

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Offlinecmcmushrooms
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: WillowHarvest]
    #21413251 - 03/15/15 08:42 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

WillowHarvest said:
Quote:

cmcmushrooms said:
Here are some Brat oysters grown on nothing but pellets and cold water.



Chandler




That's an awesome pinset, especially with no bran.  I'm planning on trying this soon, as I'm always looking for different low/no energy teks for oyster.  I did some oyster on heat pasteurized hardwood fuel pellets (no bran) this winter and got very poor yields and pin set compared to my straw blocks.  How much did that Brat oyster block weigh, and did you estimate your yield for this tek with and without bran?




That block was about 12 lb, if I remember correctly. Its throwing out a second flush right now actually, prob got 2 lb. off the first flush. Haven't been able to compare yields yet, but I have some of both about to go into fruiting now, so I'll be able to compare over the next few weeks. I'll try and get some pics of both and post.

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OfflineWillowHarvest
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: cmcmushrooms]
    #21416923 - 03/16/15 05:05 PM (9 years, 14 days ago)

Awesome, I'd love to see an update once they fruit out.  Thanks.

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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: WillowHarvest]
    #21442826 - 03/22/15 11:54 AM (9 years, 8 days ago)

I will be inoculating some WBS today to try my hand at pasteurized, supplemented sawdust. I will be using 3# compressed logs as nobody carries fuel pellets around here now that the winter is over. I will be using wheat bran and I will be using a wood ash pasteurization tek.

My plan is to make a mix of wood ash, lime and water to a pH of 12. Then place my wood blocks in a bucket or tot with the wheat bran. Pour in the pH water and soak, covered for 30min. Then break up the mix.
At this point I think my ph should drop to around 7 then I will add spawn. Mix and go into a lined bucket.

Does this sound like a viable technique?
CMCMUSHROOMS you use 7gal water/40# fuel pellets is there any reason to think my ratio should be different from yours even though I will be using 3# sawdust blocks?
Thanks for any help!


--------------------
Here's what we can do to change the world right now, to a better ride. Take all the money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead, spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over , not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

  ~Bill Hicks~


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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: MattyBear]
    #21443776 - 03/22/15 04:50 PM (9 years, 8 days ago)

I would imagine water ratios would be different for those sawdust bricks than for wood pellets, but I'm not sure (mostly because I find variations of how much water certain wood pellets need to hydrate depending on the brand/type of wood - but generally I find a one to one ratio of cups of water to cups of pellets to be sufficient) - can you sacrifice a few to test out how much water it takes to hydrate one to field capacity? The amount of bran you use will also obviously affect how much water you need as well..

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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: MattyBear]
    #21443948 - 03/22/15 05:38 PM (9 years, 8 days ago)

I agree with DE_Fungi, you may have to play with the water content to get it right, sound like a good plan, though the ph should stay high after mixing, this is what keeps the contams out till your spawn can get a good start.

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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: falcon]
    #21444271 - 03/22/15 07:01 PM (9 years, 8 days ago)

Okay, so last weekend I messed around with 1# of a 3# block. I used my wife's miter saw to cut it into 3rds.
With the 1# block I added 1# lime water at a ph of above 12. My strips only go to twelve, but it was def. around 13-14ph.
I also had a small amount of gypsum, approx. .4oz
This was based off of CMC's ratio earlier in the thread.
After breaking it up I realized it was still too dry, but I took another ph sample by placing a ph strip into a bag of the moist sawdust and let it sit. It read 7ph. So I made another lime water and add 1/2# into the sawdust and continued to break it up by hand. I however did not write down my final ph reading and for the life of me cannot remember.
FYI, I had never worked with these blocks before so my only goal was to get my hands dirty on a beautiful spring day. 
After re-looking at my results I might increase the water by half, but that seems like a lot...I'll add slowly.
Last thing, with the ph, I read with straw you want to soak in a lime bath for 16 hours or so to let the straw absorb the liquid, to kill contaminates and to allow the ph level to drop before adding the spawn to a too harsh of an environment.
From what I have read with unpasteurized supplemented sawdust, you just mix and add spawn without any long waits, so either the ph does drop and allows the mycelium to thrive or I read wrong about the ph level drop in pasteurized straw and the ph level is 12 when you add spawn and naturally drops as the mycelium grows over a longer period of time.


--------------------
Here's what we can do to change the world right now, to a better ride. Take all the money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead, spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over , not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

  ~Bill Hicks~


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OfflineDE_Fungi
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: MattyBear]
    #21444285 - 03/22/15 07:06 PM (9 years, 8 days ago)

So I've been recently testing my lime soaked straw before and after soak - definitely gets to 13-14 at the start of soak and the next day when I drain the straw it reads 10-11 and I inoculate, takes about 2-3 days for the mycelium to bounce back for me - I'm not sure if that's from the ph being so high or because the temp in my basement hovers only right around 60..

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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: DE_Fungi]
    #21444362 - 03/22/15 07:26 PM (9 years, 8 days ago)

Just checked the bags that have been sitting on the shelf a week and the ph is at 7.


--------------------
Here's what we can do to change the world right now, to a better ride. Take all the money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead, spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over , not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

  ~Bill Hicks~


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Offlinecmcmushrooms
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: MattyBear]
    #21444429 - 03/22/15 07:41 PM (9 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

MattyBear said:

CMCMUSHROOMS you use 7gal water/40# fuel pellets is there any reason to think my ratio should be different from yours even though I will be using 3# sawdust blocks?
Thanks for any help!




Yeah, water ratios differ from batch to batch, I usually use about 5 gallons with no bran, and then around 7 gallons when do add bran. Generally I start with 5 gallons, mix, and then add more until I reach hydration.

Here is one of the clusters i got from those bags that were pinning before:


I've only been getting around 1.25# per 8# sawdust bag, but these ones were unsupplemented, we'll see if the ones with bran produce more. Still, I'm happy with those yields considering the ease of production and time saved vs sterilizing.

Here's one of those same bags prior to harvesting:


Good luck with those compressed logs Matty, I've never messed with those but I bet they'll work

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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: cmcmushrooms]
    #21444754 - 03/22/15 08:56 PM (9 years, 8 days ago)

Beautiful flush!:eek:


--------------------
Here's what we can do to change the world right now, to a better ride. Take all the money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead, spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over , not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

  ~Bill Hicks~


Looking to build up a print library

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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: MattyBear]
    #21507921 - 04/05/15 09:00 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Tykles, I started a quick trial today with a pt jar (appro. 101g) of popcorn oyster WBS spawn. FYI, I have never grown this variety before.

I used
12oz Compressed wood block
34g Wheat Bran (from a local mill)
8.5g Gypsum
952g water (Double the amount of cmcmushrooms ratio)
8g Lime
27g Ash, sifted


I mixed the ashes, lime and water together and took a ph reading (two containers because I wanted back up incase I needed more water)


Mixed the wood block, wheat bran and gypsum.


Add the water, shook like crazy and waited 15 min.
The ph was still at 12
Waited another 15 min.
pH dropped to 11
Waited 20min.
pH dropped to 10
Added spawn and shook like crazy.
Poured into a bag.
Tied it up and poked a bunch of holes with a paper clip.


I will keep you posted on success or failure.
Tykles have you had any luck?


--------------------
Here's what we can do to change the world right now, to a better ride. Take all the money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead, spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over , not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

  ~Bill Hicks~


Looking to build up a print library

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OfflineDE_Fungi
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: MattyBear]
    #21510674 - 04/06/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Do you have a better picture of what those wood blocks turn into when they expand? From that last pic of your bag there it looks like it's a bit coarser than sawdust - more like wood shavings?

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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: DE_Fungi]
    #21512012 - 04/06/15 07:49 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------
Here's what we can do to change the world right now, to a better ride. Take all the money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead, spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over , not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

  ~Bill Hicks~


Looking to build up a print library

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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: MattyBear]
    #21512282 - 04/06/15 08:33 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Ahh, looks good to me :thumbup:

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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: DE_Fungi]
    #21540550 - 04/13/15 07:07 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

week 1 - Looks pretty slow to me...we will see what happens





Any Advice???


--------------------
Here's what we can do to change the world right now, to a better ride. Take all the money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead, spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over , not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

  ~Bill Hicks~


Looking to build up a print library

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Invisiblesolarity
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: MattyBear]
    #21541893 - 04/13/15 01:31 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

looks too wet to me.
I use compressed sawdust blocks at a ratio of 1:1.8 then I use 1:1.1 for Bran or other supplement. (works in the metric system, more difficult otherwise)

So for your recipe that would be
340gr wood = 612ml water
34gr bran = 37ml water

= 649ml water.

Usually with this sort of experiment you want to make up a range of bags for comparison, but only change one variable per bag.

I should add though that my ratios are for a sterile bag made up dry and steamed for 12 hours.


--------------------
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: solarity]
    #21542018 - 04/13/15 02:01 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Damn, thanks Solarity. Got any ideas on a good way to dry a bit. It is pasteurized, could I just air dry?


--------------------
Here's what we can do to change the world right now, to a better ride. Take all the money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead, spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over , not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

  ~Bill Hicks~


Looking to build up a print library

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Invisiblesolarity
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Re: Help with lime pasteurization of supplemented sawdust pellets [Re: MattyBear]
    #21542072 - 04/13/15 02:16 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

well if you have a clean area and it is pin holed already you could always just sit a big weight on it for a day or so and squeeze the water out. Once you release the weight a whole load of air will be sucked in so make sure it is clean.

Or....cue mad idea...- you could stick it in the washing machine on a (slow) spin cycle. But just in case put it inside another bag.... and take the other washing out.


--------------------
Commercial exotics farmer for 8 years - now sold up!

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