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OfflineZahid
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9/11 ? The Israeli Connection
    #2064124 - 11/02/03 02:53 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

02 November 2003

Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001 ...

Were they part of a massive spy ring which shadowed the 9/11 hijackers and knew that al-Qaeda planned a devastating terrorist attack on the USA? Neil Mackay investigates


THERE was ruin and terror in Manhattan, but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. As the World Trade Centre burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated and filmed the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it played out before their eyes.

Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, even? Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis ? and at least two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the equivalent of MI6 or the CIA.

Their discovery and arrest that morning is a matter of indisputable fact. To those who have investigated just what the Israelis were up to that day, the case raises one dreadful possibility: that Israeli intelligence had been shadowing the al-Qaeda hijackers as they moved from the Middle East through Europe and into America where they trained as pilots and prepared to suicide-bomb the symbolic heart of the United States. And the motive? To bind America in blood and mutual suffering to the Israeli cause.

After the attacks on New York and Washington, the former Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, was asked what the terrorist strikes would mean for US-Israeli relations. He said: ?It?s very good.? Then he corrected himself, adding: ?Well, it?s not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy [for Israel from Americans].?

If Israel?s closest ally felt the collective pain of mass civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists, then Israel would have an unbreakable bond with the world?s only hyperpower and an effective free hand in dealing with the Palestinian terrorists who had been murdering its innocent civilians as the second intifada dragged on throughout 2001.

It?s not surprising that the New Jersey housewife who first spotted the five Israelis and their white van wants to preserve her anonymity. She?s insisted that she only be identified as Maria. A neighbour in her apartment building had called her just after the first strike on the Twin Towers. Maria grabbed a pair of binoculars and, like millions across the world, she watched the horror of the day unfold.

As she gazed at the burning towers, she noticed a group of men kneeling on the roof of a white van in her parking lot. Here?s her recollection: ?They seemed to be taking a movie. They were like happy, you know ... they didn?t look shocked to me. I thought it was strange.?

Maria jotted down the van?s registration and called the police. The FBI was alerted and soon there was a statewide all points bulletin put out for the apprehension of the van and its occupants. The cops traced the number, establishing that it belonged to a company called Urban Moving.

Police Chief John Schmidig said: ?We got an alert to be on the lookout for a white Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration and writing on the side. Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty State Park after the impact. They said three people were jumping up and down.?

By 4pm on the afternoon of September 11, the van was spotted near New Jersey?s Giants stadium. A squad car pulled it over and inside were five men in their 20s. They were hustled out of the car with guns levelled at their heads and handcuffed.

In the car was $4700 in cash, a couple of foreign passports and a pair of box cutters ? the concealed Stanley Knife-type blades used by the 19 hijackers who?d flown jetliners into the World Trade Centre and Pentagon just hours before. There were also fresh pictures of the men standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the background. One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the devastated buildings, like a fan at a pop concert. The driver of the van then told the arresting officers: ?We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.?

His name was Sivan Kurzberg. The other four passengers were Kurzberg?s brother Paul, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari. The men were dragged off to prison and transferred out of the custody of the FBI?s Criminal Division and into the hands of their Foreign Counterintelligence Section ? the bureau?s anti-espionage squad.

A warrant was issued for a search of the Urban Moving premises in Weehawken in New Jersey. Boxes of papers and computers were removed. The FBI questioned the firm?s Israeli owner, Dominik Otto Suter, but when agents returned to re-interview him a few days later, he was gone. An employee of Urban Moving said his co-workers had laughed about the Manhattan attacks the day they happened. ?I was in tears,? the man said. ?These guys were joking and that bothered me. These guys were like, ?Now America knows what we go through.??

Vince Cannistraro, former chief of operations for counter-terrorism with the CIA, says the red flag went up among investigators when it was discovered that some of the Israelis? names were found in a search of the national intelligence database. Cannistraro says many in the US intelligence community believed that some of the Israelis were working for Mossad and there was speculation over whether Urban Moving had been ?set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists?.

This makes it clear that there was no suggestion whatsoever from within American intelligence that the Israelis were colluding with the 9/11 hijackers ? simply that the possibility remains that they knew the attacks were going to happen, but effectively did nothing to help stop them.

After the owner vanished, the offices of Urban Moving looked as if they?d been closed down in a big hurry. Mobile phones were littered about, the office phones were still connected and the property of at least a dozen clients were stacked up in the warehouse. The owner had cleared out his family home in New Jersey and returned to Israel.

Two weeks after their arrest, the Israelis were still in detention, held on immigration charges. Then a judge ruled that they should be deported. But the CIA scuppered the deal and the five remained in custody for another two months. Some went into solitary confinement, all underwent two polygraph tests and at least one underwent up to seven lie detector sessions before they were eventually deported at the end of November 2001. Paul Kurzberg refused to take a lie detector test for 10 weeks, but then failed it. His lawyer said he was reluctant to take the test as he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country.

Nevertheless, their lawyer, Ram Horvitz, dismissed the allegations as ?stupid and ridiculous?. Yet US government sources still maintained that the Israelis were collecting information on the fundraising activities of groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Mark Regev, of the Israeli embassy in Washington, would have none of that and he said the allegations were ?simply false?. The men themselves claimed they?d read about the World Trade Centre attacks on the internet, couldn?t see it from their office and went to the parking lot for a better view. Their lawyers and the embassy say their ghoulish and sinister celebrations as the Twin Towers blazed and thousands died were due to youthful foolishness.

The respected New York Jewish newspaper, The Forward, reported in March 2002, however, that it had received a briefing on the case of the five Israelis from a US official who was regularly updated by law enforcement agencies. This is what he told The Forward: ?The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it.? He added that ?the conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabs?, but the men were released because they ?did not know anything about 9/11?.

Back in Israel, several of the men discussed what happened on an Israeli talk show. One of them made this remarkable comment: ?The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.? But how can you document an event unless you know it is going to happen?

We are now deep in conspiracy theory territory. But there is more than a little circumstantial evidence to show that Mossad ? whose motto is ?By way of deception, thou shalt do war? ? was spying on Arab extremists in the USA and may have known that September 11 was in the offing, yet decided to withhold vital information from their American counterparts which could have prevented the terror attacks.

Following September 11, 2001, more than 60 Israelis were taken into custody under the Patriot Act and immigration laws. One highly placed investigator told Carl Cameron of Fox News that there were ?tie-ins? between the Israelis and September 11; the hint was clearly that they?d gathered intelligence on the planned attacks but kept it to themselves.

The Fox News source refused to give details, saying: ?Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It?s classified information.? Fox News is not noted for its condemnation of Israel; it?s a ruggedly patriotic news channel owned by Rupert Murdoch and was President Bush?s main cheerleader in the war on terror and the invasion of Iraq.

Another group of around 140 Israelis were detained prior to September 11, 2001, in the USA as part of a widespread investigation into a suspected espionage ring run by Israel inside the USA. Government documents refer to the spy ring as an ?organised intelligence-gathering operation? designed to ?penetrate government facilities?. Most of those arrested had served in the Israeli armed forces ? but military service is compulsory in Israel. Nevertheless, a number had an intelligence background.

The first glimmerings of an Israeli spying exercise in the USA came to light in spring 2001, when the FBI sent a warning to other federal agencies alerting them to be wary of visitors calling themselves ?Israeli art students? and attempting to bypass security at federal buildings in order to sell paintings. A Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) report suggested the Israeli calls ?may well be an organised intelligence-gathering activity?. Law enforcement documents say that the Israelis ?targeted and penetrated military bases? as well as the DEA, FBI and dozens of government facilities, including secret offices and the unlisted private homes of law enforcement and intelligence personnel.

A number of Israelis questioned by the authorities said they were students from Bezalel Academy of Art and Design, but Pnina Calpen, a spokeswoman for the Israeli school, did not recognise the names of any Israelis mentioned as studying there in the past 10 years. A federal report into the so-called art students said many had served in intelligence and electronic signal intercept units during their military service.

According to a 61-page report, drafted after an investigation by the DEA and the US immigration service, the Israelis were organised into cells of four to six people. The significance of what the Israelis were doing didn?t emerge until after September 11, 2001, when a report by a French intelligence agency noted ?according to the FBI, Arab terrorists and suspected terror cells lived in Phoenix, Arizona, as well as in Miami and Hollywood, Florida, from December 2000 to April 2001 in direct proximity to the Israeli spy cells?.

The report contended that Mossad agents were spying on Mohammed Atta and Marwan al-Shehi, two of leaders of the 9/11 hijack teams. The pair had settled in Hollywood, Florida, along with three other hijackers, after leaving Hamburg ? where another Mossad team was operating close by.

Hollywood in Florida is a town of just 25,000 souls. The French intelligence report says the leader of the Mossad cell in Florida rented apartments ?right near the apartment of Atta and al-Shehi?. More than a third of the Israeli ?art students? claimed residence in Florida. Two other Israelis connected to the art ring showed up in Fort Lauderdale. At one time, eight of the hijackers lived just north of the town.

Put together, the facts do appear to indicate that Israel knew that 9/11, or at least a large-scale terror attack, was about to take place on American soil, but did nothing to warn the USA. But that?s not quite true. In August 2001, the Israelis handed over a list of terrorist suspects ? on it were the names of four of the September 11 hijackers. Significantly, however, the warning said the terrorists were planning an attack ?outside the United States?.

The Israeli embassy in Washington has dismissed claims about the spying ring as ?simply untrue?. The same denials have been issued repeatedly by the five Israelis seen high-fiving each other as the World Trade Centre burned in front of them.

Their lawyer, Ram Horwitz, insisted his clients were not intelligence officers. Irit Stoffer, the Israeli foreign minister, said the allegations were ?completely untrue?. She said the men were arrested because of ?visa violations?, adding: ?The FBI investigated those cases because of 9/11.?

Jim Margolin, an FBI spokesman in New York, implied that the public would never know the truth, saying: ?If we found evidence of unauthorised intelligence operations that would be classified material.? Yet, Israel has long been known, according to US administration sources, for ?conducting the most aggressive espionage operations against the US of any US ally?. Seventeen years ago, Jonathan Pollard, a civilian working for the American Navy, was jailed for life for passing secrets to Israel. At first, Israel claimed Pollard was part of a rogue operation, but the government later took responsibility for his work.

It has always been a long-accepted agreement among allies ? such as Britain and America or America and Israel ? that neither country will jail a ?friendly spy? nor shame the allied country for espionage. Chip Berlet, a senior analyst at Boston?s Political Research Associates and an expert in intelligence, says: ?It?s a backdoor agreement between allies that says that if one of your spies gets caught and didn?t do too much harm, he goes home. It goes on all the time. The official reason is always visa violation.?

What we are left with, then, is fact sullied by innuendo. Certainly, it seems, Israel was spying within the borders of the United States and it is equally certain that the targets were Islamic extremists probably linked to September 11. But did Israel know in advance that the Twin Towers would be hit and the world plunged into a war without end; a war which would give Israel the power to strike its enemies almost without limit? That?s a conspiracy theory too far, perhaps. But the unpleasant feeling that, in this age of spin and secrets, we do not know the full and unadulterated truth won?t go away. Maybe we can guess, but it?s for the history books to discover and decide.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
    #2064186 - 11/02/03 03:46 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

There are many holes in this argument and it smells a lot like every other overblown conspiracy theory.

Some of the assumptions made are very odd. Most are made with little to no proof. The majority of this argument revolves around a Fox News Source, who supposedly told this reporter (Niel Makay...) about Classified documents connecting Israel to 9-11. The main source for this article is heresay from someone who isn't allowed to view classified information... yet somehow got ahold of it. When they did, instead of taking it to Fox News, they kept it secret, until leaking it to the author of this article... right.  :rolleyes:

The rest of the argument revolves around 5 Israeli kids over in Jersey who were enthusiastically watching the WTC burn.

But the conclusion drawn...

(After these five men were deported back to Israel)

"Back in Israel, several of the men discussed what happened on an Israeli talk show. One of them made this remarkable comment: ?The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.? But how can you document an event unless you know it is going to happen?"

I know how, I documented it too. If you were near the WTC, and had a camera, you documented it. None of us knew it was happening... until it did. Still, many of us documented it.

You'd be amazed at some people's reaction to the event... especially before the first tower fell. Nobody thought the towers would collapse... 'till they did. Once that happened, people's attitudes darkened.

Here's another example of popple reacting in an odd way to an event.

There was a major earthquake in San Francisco during a World Series game. Many lost their lives in the quake. There was a large fire and the Oakland Bay Bridge was damaged.

You know what the crowd in the ballpark did when the earthquake struck?

They cheared.

Were they responsible for the earthquake?

This article puts more weight on the cheers of five Israelis (Who looked like they were Arabic to the lady who called them in, by the way) than the cheers of thousands of Arabs when news of the WTC's collapse spread.

This is a poorly drawn article... written because, I'm sure, the author can't believe any true Muslim would have done such a thing. I know, it is very hard to believe it happened at all.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
    #2064376 - 11/02/03 07:19 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

You do realize that links to the article should be posted as well?


From the forum rules:
2) Although not always possible, when quoting a source please provide a link.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2064380 - 11/02/03 07:26 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I will give you a ISRAEL conection

Israel is a terrorist STATE, and the Palestians are under OCCUPATION

America gives Israel 3 billion a YEAR!!!! 9 billion during the Iraq war!!!!!!

there is that a straight enought line to terror and the terrorism it causes

one good bomb deserves another , so to speak?


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2064492 - 11/02/03 09:57 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps you should read the articles yourself before simply posting them, may prevent you from looking stupid in future.

Quote:

I will give you a ISRAEL conection

Israel is a terrorist STATE, and the Palestians are under OCCUPATION

America gives Israel 3 billion a YEAR!!!! 9 billion during the Iraq war!!!!!!

there is that a straight enought line to terror and the terrorism it causes

one good bomb deserves another , so to speak?




Your opinion, does nothing to support the point made in the article you posted or to rebute Cervantes response....




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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
    #2064526 - 11/02/03 10:44 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know where I stand on this article, but here's a quote about the Israeli connection to 9-11 that I find interesting......

"Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information." -- US official quoted in Carl Cameron's Fox News report on the Israeli spy ring and its connections to 9-11.




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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Learyfan]
    #2064533 - 11/02/03 10:52 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Your opinion, does nothing to support the point made in the article you posted or to rebute Cervantes response...."

I didnt post this article!, so who is the one that hasent been reading the thread??????

why dont YOU check , things and get back to me sheesh!!

what learyfan said was cool, and I never said this article was even good, I wanted to show that AMERICAS support itself of ISRAEL helped cause 9\11

you need to read beofe you speak


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Edited by Psilocybeingzz (11/02/03 10:53 AM)


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2064535 - 11/02/03 10:54 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Perhaps you should read the articles yourself before simply posting them, may prevent you from looking stupid in future."
diddo


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2064545 - 11/02/03 11:03 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Then you have my apologies, I assumed it was your post due to the nature of your post. Not even I am infallable... hard to believe I know :smile:

Quote:

I will give you a ISRAEL conection

Israel is a terrorist STATE, and the Palestians are under OCCUPATION

America gives Israel 3 billion a YEAR!!!! 9 billion during the Iraq war!!!!!!

there is that a straight enought line to terror and the terrorism it causes

one good bomb deserves another , so to speak?





Your opinion, does nothing to support the point made in the article (still stands)

And the rest can be directed at Zahid, who perhaps for once can explain his feelings on the material he posts?

Again I apologise, it would appear the egg is on my face  :blush:


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2064548 - 11/02/03 11:04 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

then sorry for being so harsh with the comments I just made in another thread , but hey politics are dirty
reality is dirty


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
    #2064549 - 11/02/03 11:05 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

You may find this link useful Zahid, it outlines some details from the article you mentioned, and a lot of other pieces of information that you might find interesting (all with article links too).

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/wot/sept11/911mossad.html


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Edame]
    #2064555 - 11/02/03 11:09 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

very nice site !


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2064787 - 11/02/03 01:26 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Blaming Israel for 9-11, is like blaming Jews for WWII.

Did you know that in New York during WWII, someone climbed to the top of The Daily Jewish Foreward, and changed the sign to Jew is For war?

Blaming Jews for all of the world's problems isn't a new idea... it is just stupid.



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InvisibleEdame
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2064819 - 11/02/03 01:47 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I can't see anyone here blaming Israel for 9/11, the topic under discussion is whether they were connected to it in some way.


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2064869 - 11/02/03 02:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

And the rest can be directed at Zahid, who perhaps for once can explain his feelings on the material he posts?

Zahid has explained himself many times. Certainly many more times than you ever do.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Xlea321]
    #2064883 - 11/02/03 02:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

That said Alex123, it is nice to include links and, perhaps a personal viewpoint, or two, when posting someone else's opinion. In this thread, Zahid left us high and dry. I have no Idea where this article came from and, no clue how Zahid feels about it.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Edame]
    #2064927 - 11/02/03 02:44 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

*Edame: I can't see anyone here blaming Israel for 9/11, the topic under discussion is whether they were connected to it in some way.

Oh yeah?

*Psilocybeinsz: I wanted to show that AMERICAS support itself of ISRAEL helped cause 9\11.

Edame, if that^^ isn't indirectly blaming Israel and America for 9-11, I don't know what is.

We may as well blame England for opposing Germany in WWII. Hell, if they had supported the Germans, the Axis would have never bombed London.


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Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleEdame
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2064964 - 11/02/03 02:54 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I still don't see how that's blaming Israel, maybe blaming America yes (and I would agree in thinking that their foreign policy was a factor), but I don't see any suggestion in that comment that Israel was to blame for the attacks.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Edame]
    #2065007 - 11/02/03 03:02 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

*Psilocybeingzz: I wanted to show that AMERICAS support itself of ISRAEL helped cause 9\11.

Well, Edame, that argument^^ hinges around America's support for ISRAEL... thus implicating Israel. It certainly blames America.

What it Psylocibeingzz implied is this: Had America not supported Israel, the WTC would still be standing.

That is how I heard it. Please explain where I am wrong. I disagree with that form of thinking.

In fact, I'm pretty sure Israel was the last thing on the minds of the 3000 victims.

Hell, they were innocent victims. This wasn't a military target, it wasn't even the most famous structure in NYC. The World Trade Center was attacked for a few reasons. It was big, and easy to hit, and easy to see... as evidenced by all the film and photos taken of that horrid event.


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Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (11/02/03 03:16 PM)


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
    #2065068 - 11/02/03 03:16 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Im not a big fan of this conspiracy theory.

I am a huge one of the Saudi links.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/03/world/main566412.shtml
More
http://www.msnbc.com/news/838867.asp
James Bath, Harken, Arbusto and Bush

I could go on and on.
I think Israel was linked in the same way that the upper echelons of our govt were linked. They knew it was going to happen, just like germany and france and everyone else that warned us.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2065086 - 11/02/03 03:19 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Now there is a conspiracy Psilokitten... considering most of the hijackers and Bin Laden himself are from Saudi Arabia. Oh and let us not forget Bush and Cheney's connections to big oil.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065092 - 11/02/03 03:20 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

This is going off on a tangent, there's nothing wrong with us looking at this in different ways.

I don't really see how I can clarify what seems pretty clear already to me, but I'll give it a go.

The operative words here for me are "helped cause". I don't think he implied that America's support of Israel alone caused 9/11, just that it was one of many factors involved. I think ti's really reaching to assume that Psylo actually meant "Had America not supported Israel, the WTC would still be standing." because to me that would imply that it was the only cause of the attacks.

I'm not saying that you're 'wrong', I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Edame]
    #2065267 - 11/02/03 04:07 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Edame, I understand you are looking at it from a different perspective than me. Most people looked at it from a different perspective.

I lived less than a mile away from the WTC when it fell. I saw it with my own eyes. Watching 3,000 people die fucks with you. I had to go outside to see it with my own eyes because it didn't seem real if I just looked through a window.

I have trouble blaming anybody but the fuckers that hijacked those planes (It is ok for me to flame hijackers isn't it?).

I have a particular problem with Zahid's article. I find it funny that his article hinges around FIVE Isralei kids. A woman called the cops on them because she saw five kids who she thought were ARAB TERRORISTS. Hundreds of such calls were made on 9-11. These 5 were the only Israleis I know of.

Now Edame, as for going off on a tangent, I have no problem with that, it is obvious Zahid isn't offering any oppinions in his thread.

You think America's support for Israel "Helped cause" 9-11. I guess that is true, in a sense, but it is a great oversimplification of the facts. America's ties to Saudi Arabia have MUCH more to do with the attacks. America's first WAR on Iraq had more to do with 9-11 still.

Muslims around the Middle East were pissed at the Saudis for allowing Non-Muslim, American soldiers on to their most holy soil. They were especially upset at the fact Americans sent women to protect their holy land.

Many Saudis fealt, and still feel that way as well.

Here is another FACT. The design of the WTC was made by a Japanese architect who was fascinated by Middle Eastern Architecture. In fact, he designed Saudi Arabia's airport and other famous Saudi buildings. You can see middle Eastern influences all through the WTC blueprints.


Arabian style archwork.


Looking up below the arches.

He based his design of the World Trade Center courtyard on Mecca itself... the Kabul in particular. He wanted a huge open space between buildings with a black statue in the middle. He wanted to inspire people to walk in a circular motion... always moving towards the center.


Kaaba, Mecca


WTC Courtyard, NYC

The WTC was based on Mecca but the WTC was, basically, the world's largest shopping mall.

Bin Laden couldn't stand this. How dare Americans build a Commerialistic Mecca? Because thw WTC architect was well known in Saudi Arabia, the WTC held greater importance to Saudis than it did to Americans.

Trust me, most Arab tourists stayed in the WTC hotels. I saw them. The WTC was the only public place in NYC I've seen that had writing in Arabic for the vast amount of tourists. Hundreds of Muslims, most of them Pakistani, lost heir lives in the 9-11 attacks.

Bin Laden wanted to make a point to the Saudis AND Americans. If he just wanted to strike at white America, he would have attacked The Empire State Building instead. The Empire State Building is the most famous American Skyscraper.

Instead, he attacked the WORLD TRADE Center. This was done intentionally. Remember, the WTC was attacked twice. Once in 1993... the intent that time, like it was on 9-11, was to bring the building down.

I have heard a lot of speculation that Israel was responsible for 9-11... all from Muslim sources! That is hardly coincidental. The conspiracy theories vary but they always involve Israel. We get it. Muslims don't like Israelis. That is hardly a reason to attack innocent American office workers.

I wish I knew where Zahid got his article.

Here's a link that talks about why Bin Laden chose to attack the WTC. It has some great information on the original architect of the WTC as well.

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2060207

One of the photos is mine, the others are uncredited and pulled from the web. The photo of the WTC Courtyard can be found if you follow the link provided above.


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065281 - 11/02/03 04:16 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I think that, like every action, their was a causal effect. The causal effect here was Wahhabism (offical, state sanctioned hatred of the Jews and the USA) and the fact that the US is supporting a democratic nation in a land barren of caring, compassion, or freedoms. To state that the US, acting in a capacity of morality, "caused" these actions is somewhat right. However,to FAULT us for this, is quite incorrect.

If a girl went to a party wearing a short skirt, and was raped, was that her fault? No, it was the fault of the men who actually commited the crime.


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065289 - 11/02/03 04:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

You think America's support for Israel "Helped cause" 9-11. That is true, in a sense, but it is a great oversimplification of the facts. America's ties to Saudi Arabia have MUCH more to do with the attacks. America's first WAR on Iraq had more to do with 9-11 still.

Let's just clarify that point, I didn't say that, Zahid did. I said that I agreed that America's foreign policy was a factor.



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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Edame]
    #2065291 - 11/02/03 04:23 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

It's quite obvious that TheJews are behind this, just like TheJews that control the banks, the media, and the thought control devices put in our heads by the CIA/MOSSAD control every other event in teh world.


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Edame]
    #2065308 - 11/02/03 04:30 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
You think America's support for Israel "Helped cause" 9-11. That is true, in a sense, but it is a great oversimplification of the facts. America's ties to Saudi Arabia have MUCH more to do with the attacks. America's first WAR on Iraq had more to do with 9-11 still.

Let's just clarify that point, I didn't say that, Zahid did.  I said that I agreed that America's foreign policy was a factor.

 




Psylocybeingzz said it.

Zahid hasn't said anything in this thread.

You ran with the quote after it was said.

I am trying to set you straight.

End of recap.  :smirk:


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065334 - 11/02/03 04:38 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

My bad, that's who I meant. I still stand by my point though, I told you how I interpreted the quote, not that I agreed with it.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Edame]
    #2065346 - 11/02/03 04:42 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Then move on Edame, I already told you I understood what you meant. You said we are entitled to our own opinions. I agree.

I just like to back my opinions up with pictures and links.

Really, no hard feelings.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065378 - 11/02/03 04:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I'm trying to move on but you seem to be addressing me with rebuttals to Zahid and Psylocybeingzz 's arguements.

I said that I didn't think anyone in this thread was trying to blame Israel for 9/11, that's it, that's all I wanted to say.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Edame]
    #2065414 - 11/02/03 05:09 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

OK, if you want to continue a little while longer Edame, we can. I have passion about this subject and anytime I see something that smells of misinformation, I want to defend it. I'm sure I would be more neutral on this topic if it were not for my proximity to the event.

The only reason I have addressed you with Psilo and Zahid is this: the one link you did provide was in defense of Zahid's post. I have no problem with that. You didn't clarify your position when you posted the link though. You only did that later in the thread.

Here's the link you posted:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/wot/sept11/911mossad.html

Here's what you said:
"You may find this link useful Zahid, it outlines some details from the article you mentioned, and a lot of other pieces of information that you might find interesting (all with article links too)."

I think you can see why I made the assumption I did. But, you and I know what happens when I assume. I make an "ASS" out of "U" and "ME".

Re-read my last post if you really think I was still rebuting.

My words may have been harsh (I take this subject personally... so do my Israeli friends) but I wasn't arguing.

I know, it is easy for some people to blame 9-11 on a conspiracy (notice Edame, I didn't name you  :tongue:). I didn't believe it was happening and I was there. Three month of smelling that pile of rubble burn, helped drive it home. It did happen. Planes were hijacked. There is still a 16 acre hole in the middle of Downtown Manhattan.

Back to Zahid,

If the Israelis are to blame, why not blame the Palestinians for INVITING the Jews to move to their land during WWII. It wasn't very long ago, when Arabs were a sort of Jewish ally. Jews moved to Israel because it was the ONE place where they weren't persecuted... until they were given their own country.

What's more, Palastine has NEVER been a country. It wasn't a country when the Jews chose to move there. It isn't now.


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Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (11/02/03 05:28 PM)


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065459 - 11/02/03 05:26 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Psst... you guys are on the same side.

Save your energy for arguing with the bad guys :smile:


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2065461 - 11/02/03 05:26 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

It has been a slow day PsiloKitten. I've had to take my arguments where I can find them.  :smirk:


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065469 - 11/02/03 05:29 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Heh.

You could go fight with some people at freerepublic.com if you wanna vent. ;-)


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2065472 - 11/02/03 05:30 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Psst... you guys are on the same side.

Save your energy for arguing with the bad guys :smile: 



This is exactly the kind of partisanship that I hate.  Liberals should be able to debate among themselves, as should conservatives, because that's how we learn from one another.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: silversoul7]
    #2065481 - 11/02/03 05:33 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

That's great.. but what about when you are debating the same thing, but thinking you are debating two different things because your emotions are hyped up? Have you read the thread, or just popped off?

That's the kind of emotional baggage I hate, when people bitch just to hear themselves speak.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2065486 - 11/02/03 05:36 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Even if they're debating the same thing, it's a good thing to point out logical fallacies and whatnot in the other person's argument because it helps them to sharpen that argument.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: silversoul7]
    #2065487 - 11/02/03 05:36 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

In fact, and I'm still pretty new to The Shroomery, I respect people who hold different views than my own. I have learned a lot from arguments. Even though I may appear to be fighting, I know I am arguing. Notice the lack of flames... well, I flamed those fucking hijackers but that's water under the bridge.

Without the "Bad guys" we'd have no discussion.

Debate is a fundamental part of Political Discussion.

Please, don't mistake my debate for negativity... and PLEASE, please don't make me go to freepublic.com.  :eyemouth: 


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Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (11/02/03 05:37 PM)


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: silversoul7]
    #2065491 - 11/02/03 05:38 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Neither you, nor cervantes seem to have read Edame's posts. It's flabbergasting.
Im not mistaking your debate for anything. You obviously have really strong emotions about this, they just seem to be a bit misplaced in this instance, and the thing is, nobody is arguing with you and you seemed to be putting words in someone's mouth. That's cool, do what ever you want. I was just trying to give you a little tip so that maybe you would take a breath and read what was being said.

As for silver, this is a typical remark by him, Id pretty much guarantee he hadnt read the whole thread. Typical skim job. But he is definately entitled to his misinterpretation.

Hint, I wasnt saying you are on the same side because you are LIBERALS.

*edited to expound


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2065515 - 11/02/03 05:48 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Neither you, nor cervantes seem to have read Edame's posts. It's flabbergasting.

Okay guys, whatever.

Hint, I wasnt saying you are on the same side because you are LIBERALS.




Now, THAT'S argumentative.

Thanks for playing Psilo.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065518 - 11/02/03 05:49 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

So much controversy in the air; people demanding what their positions on the subject are, etc. I knew a few people would attempt to hand my ass to me when I posted this. As for the source on the article, it's currently on the headlines at Anti-War from the Sunday Herald ( http://ww1.sundayherald.com/37707 ). Much of the point of the 'Israeli Conspiracy' is that if they (Ultra-Right Israelis/Mossad/et cet era.) have the means of doing it, why not? Afterall, the Hebron massacre showed that self-sacrifice isn't entirely confined to Islamic militants. It seems few people understand why a large number of Muslims believe Israel was behind the 9/11 attack, perhaps this article might help. I don't even think the site that ran it, Anti War personally believes it as true. As for my personal feelings on the subject, I do believe Muslim fundamentalists carried out the attack - otherwise, why would Osama bin Laden gloat about the attack if he knew his jihadist network was being used as a pawn - of course, some will argue that the smoking gun wasn't smoking at all, which begs the question why a completely new screen was used for the translation. :wink: As for Israelis being connected to 9/11, it's not entirely "out there" - such an attack did benefit people inside Israel and inside the United States. However, few people seem to be that passionate about injustice as Muslims do. 


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065521 - 11/02/03 05:52 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Argumentative? I guess you didnt even read yer own posts.

.. Have at it. Im done with this thread.

RIP

Argument
A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood: presented a careful argument for extraterrestrial life.
A fact or statement put forth as proof or evidence; a reason: The current low mortgage rates are an argument for buying a house now.
A set of statements in which one follows logically as a conclusion from the others.

Argumentative
1. Consisting of, or characterized by, argument; containing a process of reasoning; as, an argumentative discourse.


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Edited by PsiloKitten (11/02/03 05:58 PM)


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
    #2065525 - 11/02/03 05:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Well said,

Great avitar.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065551 - 11/02/03 06:03 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting info on the WTC. Nice find.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2065552 - 11/02/03 06:03 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Argumentative?  I guess you didnt even read yer own posts.

.. Have at it.  Im done with this thread.

RIP 




Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me psilo.

I admitted I'm argumentative. I even explained why. I'm in a political forum for pete's sake. Politics and religion cause arguments.

Sorry you can't stay for more, you've been quite helpful to this discussion.

But now, I'm afraid you haven't been reading this thread.

I don't know Edame, we'd never met until today. I've only been at this website for a month. All I knew is what Edame posted in this thread. I got to know him/her one post at a time.

Edame knows this. Frankly, psilo, Edame was doing a great job of making his/her point... it just took a while.

To imply that Silversoul7 and I haven't read this thread was rude and without merit. You offered no proof, just a blanket coment. That you ran away after making this accusation makes me sad. At least stand up for what you say.

Please (re-)read my posts to you. I was surprised you reacted the way you did. I was just having fun. I even gave you emoticons :frown: :blush: :crazy: :shocked: :confused: :wink: :lipsrsealed: :kiss: :shake: :eek: :sad: :mad2: :razz: :devil: :nonono:


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065576 - 11/02/03 06:16 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I just dont get it,

can you not read what I said?

It just took awhile for him to make his point?

HE MADE IT IN THE SECOND POST HE MADE IN THIS THREAD.

Maybe it took you awhile to understand his point, but I was trying to nicely tell you to step back from your emotions and read what the man had said and continued to say, over and over again.

Im not coming at you with anger or any backlash, I was trying to help you out because I frankly thought you were starting to sound like someone who just wanted to argue, didnt matter that there was no arguement to be had. I think that you are an intelligent guy and I like reading your posts, I have no problem with you. I have no problem with the points you made. I AGREE WITH YOU. But, you went off on a huge tangent of emotion and excuse me for having an opinion, but I thought it could be better used arguing with someone who was arguing back.



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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2065601 - 11/02/03 06:24 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

*HE MADE IT IN THE SECOND POST HE MADE IN THIS THREAD.

Yes he did, but as I have already said: Edame's FIRST post lead me to believe he/she was saying something different in following posts.

It took me a while to come around but I did. And yet... you're still defending Edame. You are preaching to the choir psylokitten.

*Maybe it took you awhile to understand his point, but I was trying to nicely tell you to step back from your emotions and read what the man had said and continued to say, over and over again.

I responded immediately to your first post and admitted I may have been a little overzealous.

I apologize but, until you witness the deaths of 3000 people with your own eyes, don't begin to understand why I'm sometmes a little thick headed when it comes to this topic.

Edame posted a link to help Zahid's first post. That tainted my views of Edame's arguments for a while. I don't know how many times I need to say this.

Really, psilo, Edame should be fighting this fight... not you.

Moderators are here for a reason as well. PM a mod if you fear this thread is turning into a flame fest. They'll lock it up if they think it is.

I don't think this thread needs to be locked.

Get it now?


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Fiddlesticks.



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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065635 - 11/02/03 06:37 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Group hug guys!  :lol: :heartpump:

Cervantes, I posted the link for Zahid because I thought he might find it useful or interesting, that's all.  :smile:


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Edame]
    #2065638 - 11/02/03 06:39 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, and several hours later, I got it. :blush:

(Cervantes hugs back)

Sorry for the confusion.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065668 - 11/02/03 06:57 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I never said this thread was turning into a flame fest or I wanted it locked. I never even said anything like that.

Im not defending Edame. I was simply saying as you said in this post that you were preaching to the choir , in what I thought was a nicer way. This is a public forum, Im not fighting a fight, just giving an opinion. I acknowledge that you acknowledge your arguments were tainted, but it kept going on beyond that. Please see your first sentence of post #2065414.

Im not against you, Cervantes. Honestly, I was trying to help you. If you feel that is misguided, so be it. You responded about it being a slow day and taking yer arguements where you could get them. It seemed like you needed to vent, there are alot of people you could vent your frustration on that would take the arguement at freerepublic. I wasnt banishing you there, I was suggesting an actual outlet.

I can understand your emotion. I didnt see it, but I knew people (read multiple) that died when the WTC fell. I cant completely understand your emotion as an individual with a life time of opinions and experiences, I just felt that the emotion was fueling it, not anyone's statements.

Im sorry if it came off as me taking sides or defending someone.


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Edited by PsiloKitten (11/02/03 06:59 PM)


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2065694 - 11/02/03 07:10 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I know psilo...

(Cervantes lights a peace pipe... puff, puff... puff... passes it to Psilo)

.... better?

I am.

I knew people who died there too... and I have several close friends who live in Israel.

This thread, upset me like no thread I have encountered here at The Shroomery. I barely made it through Zahid's first post.

Get this little gem of info... On Sept 10, I told a couple of tourists (we were on the Brooklyn Bridge at the time... really) that they HAD to go to the top of the WTC before they left town. I realy hope they didn't take my advice.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065894 - 11/02/03 08:29 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Cervantes writes:

I have trouble blaming anybody but the fuckers that hijacked those planes (It is ok for me to flame hijackers isn't it?).

Yep. You may also flame politicians, lawyers, environmentalists, pro-life organizations and their leaders, pro-choice organizations and their leaders, PNAC, the ACLU, religions of all flavors, Zionists, Islamists, political pundits, Noam Chomsky, Ayn Rand, journalists, newspapers, judges, Karl Marx, Immanuel Kant, Hollywood personalities, talk show hosts, racial bigots, affirmative action, socialism, capitalism, communism, anarchy, rationalism, emotionalism, unions, teachers, universities, corporations, advertising, SUVs, and more.

But you can't flame those who post here, no matter how tempting it may be on occasion. The idea is to respond to what the person says, not what you perceive the person's character flaws to be. Dissect, analyze, rebut (whatever) the message, not the messenger.

Lysergic had a hard time adhering to the above rules, therefore he won't be seen here till the end of the week.

It seems that for whatever reason, people in the last 24 hours have allowed themselves to worry too much about the personality of those with whom they are communicating rather than the quality of the ideas and information being communicated. I trust this is just a temporary thing.

This forum will not become another OTD. Both Rono and I are generally reluctant to even lock a thread, let alone recommend a ban to the admin team, because we realize people tend to be passionate about their opinions. It would, however, be an error for anyone to confuse reluctance with inability.

The above message applies to all here. It was not directed at you, Cervantes -- your comment on "flaming" terrorists just gave me a good opening.

pinky


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Phred]
    #2065925 - 11/02/03 08:39 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I'm sure it is pissy biorhythms on a global scale...

...but since it is still ok to flame Ann Rand...

I'm stoked.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2065968 - 11/02/03 08:54 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Oh, now you are really asking for it. :eek:

Ayn Rand is my hero. Im dead serious.

You wanna roshambo over it?  Ill go first.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2065978 - 11/02/03 08:58 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Atlas Shrugged is my favorite book.

I chose scissors.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2066017 - 11/02/03 09:12 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

No way! Atlas Shrugged is my favorite book. Dagny Taggart is a goddess. As a man, do you more relate to Francisco, John or Hank?

Roshambo is not the same thing as paper, scissors, rock.

I learned it by watching South Park.. see, first, I run at you and kick you really hard in the lil buddies and then, you get to run at me and kick me. It doesnt usually make it to the reciprocal turn tho, that is what I wanted to go first.

Fine, Ill take rock.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2066029 - 11/02/03 09:19 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

My first pipe was named Francisco, 'cause of my favorite character, and where I bought it. Haight Street, San Francisco.



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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2066051 - 11/02/03 09:30 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

My first bong was named Dagny because it was leggy and beautiful with a redheaded bowl and swirl. :smile:  I also bought it on Haight Street, in SF.

How funny.

I knew you were a Frisco, that's why I said it first :smile:


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2066060 - 11/02/03 09:35 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"I swear -- by my life and my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine"


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Phred]
    #2066070 - 11/02/03 09:42 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

It's a great quote, and I bet since Im a liberal, you will think this is hypocrisy, but it is a huge tenent of my life.



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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2066108 - 11/02/03 10:00 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I have no opinions of "hypocrisy" one way or the other. I know nothing about you, just what you post.

It is possible to love a book while disagreeing with every single philosophical principle it illustrates. There is more to a work of literature than theme. There is character, dialog, plot, setting, mood, descriptive passages, etc. I know several libbies who enjoyed Atlas Shrugged. I am an atheist and a realist and I think Immanuel Kant was an idiot, but I love Carlos Castaneda's works. They are amazing works of literature containing a lot of wisdom.

I must admit you are the first libbie I've ever encountered who said Ayn Rand was her hero, though. It's one thing to enjoy a particular literary work of an author; quite another to name as one's hero someone who is perhaps the most famous proponent of everything one publicly criticizes.

She was an atheist, your posts imply you are not.
She was an avowed enemy of the collective, your posts indicate you are not.
She was about as "right wing" as it is possible to get, your posts indicate your antipathy to right-wingers.

But hey -- it's all good. No matter how good a novel may be, it's still just a novel, right?

pinky


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Phred]
    #2066165 - 11/02/03 10:27 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Ayn was not as right wing as you make her out to be. She was more libertarian then anything aligned to a political party of today. In truth she was an Objectivist which is very different.

She was not a proponent of everything I publically criticize, either. But yes, we do see some things differently. Although, I would like to point out that I am not a determinist Christian nor one that believes in faith alone. And Im thankful to the good lady who established a foundation that gave me a significant amount of the money that allowed me to go to college.

She is pretty intune with my anti war stance and my view of ideal govt.
"The basic social principle of the Objectivist ethics is that no man has the right to seek values from others by means of physical force ? i.e., no man or group has the right to initiate the use of physical force against others. Men have the right to use force only in self-defense and only against those who initiate its use.

Men must deal with one another as traders, giving value for value, by free, mutual consent to mutual benefit. The only social system that bars physical force from human relationships is laissez-faire capitalism. Capitalism is a system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which the only function of the government is to protect individual rights, i.e., to protect men from those who initiate the use of physical force.? Thus Objectivism rejects any form of collectivism, such as fascism or socialism. It also rejects the current ?mixed economy? notion that the government should regulate the economy and redistribute wealth."

I also agree with this completely, this is how I do believe that things should be done. But since this isnt how things are done, I adapt my conclusions to our current reality. Im not a socialist or collectivist. All in all, I do believe that all things being equal, sink or swim. But unfortunately things are not allowed to be equal, so I strive for balance.

I am also a great believer in her ideas of Reason and Rationality and the power they could have if allowed to be.


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Phred]
    #2066225 - 11/02/03 10:44 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

listening to randroids converse is like listening to two fax machines talk eachother.

IT WAS A FICTIONAL STORY, PEOPLE. GET OVER IT!!!

Atlas Shrugged was so god damned repetitive (edit: and longwinded) that I had to watch channel 3 for 24 hours straight just to wipe my brain of all the bullshit dogma and propaganda in it.

Seriously, If you think fiction stories prove points about real life then don't bury your dog in the marsh behind the woods or else they may come alive without souls like in Pet Semetary.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Edited by DoctorJ (11/02/03 10:53 PM)


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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2066252 - 11/02/03 10:50 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
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<) )>    SOLDIERS
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LET'S GO, DARWIN!


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Re: 9/11 &#8211; The Israeli Connection [Re: lysergic]
    #2066268 - 11/02/03 10:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)


The causal effect here was Wahhabism (offical, state sanctioned hatred of the Jews and the USA)


It is wierd how the Saudi royal family owes their continued grip
on power to the fact that we give them money and weapons, yet
they allow and foment Islamic radicalism that is directed towards the
United States.

It is very common in the Middle East for Arab governments to pressure
the press into lambasting Israel and America. By doing so they
create a common enemy for the people to unite against, in order
to distract attention away from the government's tyranny and
corruption.

I sometimes wonder if the Arabs even know the extent of Islamic
radicalism. I remember seeing a PBS special where an American
journalist interviewed young Arabs. He confronted them with the
simple fact that Muslim extremists across the world seem to be
willing to intentionally target innocent civilians. And, the
September 11th hijackers were quite plainly(according to airport
security footage) Arab. You could see their jaws clench as if they
were offended that he would make such a statement. Yet guess
what...it was %100 true.



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Re: 9/11 ? The Israeli Connection [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2066291 - 11/02/03 11:00 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: 9/11 &#8211; The Israeli Connection [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2066301 - 11/02/03 11:04 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I sometimes wonder if the Arabs even know the extent of Islamic
radicalism. I remember seeing a PBS special where an American
journalist interviewed young Arabs. He confronted them with the
simple fact that Muslim extremists across the world seem to be
willing to intentionally target innocent civilians. And, the
September 11th hijackers were quite plainly(according to airport
security footage) Arab. You could see their jaws clench as if they
were offended that he would make such a statement. Yet guess
what...it was %100 true.




What was "100% true"? What does any of that have to do with that guilt trip of a question towards the young Arab student?


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Re: 9/11 &#8211; The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
    #2066320 - 11/02/03 11:10 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)


What was "100% true"?


The fact that most terrorist actions in the world today are
undertaken by Muslim extremists.


What does any of that have to do with that
guilt trip of a question towards the young Arab student


The Arab students were saying stuff like, "The men who hijacked those
planes weren't Arabs, they were Jews under the direction of Israel",
etc..etc...

He wasn't laying a guilt trip on those students. He was telling
them the plain facts after they started spouting absolute
conspiracy-theory garbage that is encouraged by Arab governments.


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Re: 9/11 &#8211; The Israeli Connection [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2066338 - 11/02/03 11:15 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The fact that most terrorist actions in the world today are
undertaken by Muslim extremists.




Yes - but, this has more to do with the geopolitics of the Muslim world, not the religion of Islam.

Quote:

The Arab students were saying stuff like, "The men who hijacked those
planes weren't Arabs, they were Jews under the direction of Israel",
etc..etc...

He wasn't laying a guilt trip on those students. He was telling
them the plain facts after they started spouting absolute
conspiracy-theory garbage that is encouraged by Arab governments.




Please don't assume that we've all seen this interview on PBS.


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Re: 9/11 &#8211; The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
    #2066354 - 11/02/03 11:19 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I thnk I saw the show RandalFlagg is talking about. It was a Jewish journalist trying to discover the reason why Bin Laden attacked us. More importantly he wanted to figure out why Americans are hated in that part of the world. He wanted to discover why there were thousands of Arabs dancing in the streets.

Basically, he concluded Arabs viewed the attack as a punch in America's nose.

I wish I knew what the show was called.

The reporter often gives the American perspective on Al Jazera.

It was very good and pretty neutral. It was amazing some of the things Arabian college students thought about America and Israel.

One of the things many intelligent and sweet college students believed was Israel was responsible for Sept. 11. Many believe Jews were tipped off before Sept. 11.

It was a great documentary.

Most of these students got their information from the internet.

They valued this information higher than many Westerners because they don't spend as mush time online. They aren't yet aware of the vast amounts of misinformation available on the internet.

I'd love to know the name of the PBS Documentary, but I don't know where to begin to look.

I know I had a different view of Russians during the Cold War than I did after I traveled to Russia.


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Re: 9/11 &#8211; The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2066385 - 11/02/03 11:30 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I doubt the entire foundation of the Jewish Conspiracy is founded by internet rumours. Local Arab news papers, state-run broadcasts, etc. all play a small role into the pervading conspiracies in the Arab world (not so much the Muslim world), however much of this is widely believed because of the reputation Israel has to go 'above and beyond' for Jews world wide.


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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
    #2066453 - 11/02/03 11:56 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Yes you are right Zahid.

But what I remember most from the documentary was how the college students shown, valued the information they found on the internet higher than they valued Al Jazeera.

It was surprising how even the most educated were finding misinformation and believing it as fact.

The good thing about a free press, is they are ruled by money. A free press can't afford to lie. Look at the Los Angeles Times.


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Re: 9/11 &#8211; The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2066463 - 11/03/03 12:01 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

But what I remember most from the documentary was how the college students shown, valued the information they found on the internet higher than they valued Al Jazeera.

It was surprising how even the most educated were finding misinformation and believing it as fact.





It's a common misconception that Jihadis are backwards "sand niggers". Many of them are actually very well educated and many even have degrees from western universities.There is a really good article on the psychology of suicide bombers in last month's Discover magazine.
I'll post it if I find it.


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Douglas Adams


Edited by monoamine (11/03/03 12:02 AM)


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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2066609 - 11/03/03 01:04 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Wishful thinking is subjective to anyone who experiences political tragedy, such as the contemporary Muslim world. Just as we don't take everything we see on CNN seriously, I doubt Al Jazeera is 'News you can Trust' to everyone on the peninsula. There is an unfortunate double standard towards Arabs and Muslims that ties into the clashing of the political spectrums of Judeo-Christian tradition and Islam. One world is 'industrialized', the other is based on a religious lay theocracy. 'Muslims' don't hate the west, people who have been directly, and negatively effected by the west hate it and everything it stands for. You might find Sufi responses to political Islam quite interesting.

Peace,

zahid


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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Zahid]
    #2066692 - 11/03/03 01:43 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Often, people who have been wronged by own their government blame America.

America is like Microsoft to the rest of the world. I think America is hated because it has a ton of money and can't be avoided... but whenever you need it, you get the (red white and) blue screen of death.


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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2067286 - 11/03/03 07:06 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"I think America is hated because it has a ton of money and can't be avoided"

maybe it all america human rights abuses, or the fact they sell the world largest ammount of weapons "torture" weapons included

or maybe its all the counrtys through history that america changed......"for their own good" when it was all about american corporations
examples:Brazil, Chile, Mexico,El Salvador etc etc etc


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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2068027 - 11/03/03 03:12 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I don't hear Canada complaining.


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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2068031 - 11/03/03 03:13 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Then you have obviously never been to Canada...


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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Rono]
    #2068145 - 11/03/03 04:09 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Not Canadians... CANADA.

If you think most Americans don't feel the same way, you're misinformed.

The views of Americans and the views of the American government often differ.

Both governments (USA and Canada) are attached at the hip, however.

America often gets blamed weather they do something or not. It feels like, we're damned if we do... damned if we don't, on a global scale. America isn't evil, in fact it is much simpler than that. It is the world's largest corporation. I've herd America controls 70% of the world's resources.

How do you think we got all those "torture" weapons ?

Simply follow the money and you'll see how America really works.

And please, don't put George Bush's face on all American citizens. Most of us didn't vote for him... well, most didn't vote at all.

(Oh, and my mom's Canadian, I have family all over the West, Especially BC... I have pictures, wanna see?)


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Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (11/03/03 04:30 PM)


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/13/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2068296 - 11/03/03 05:38 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, cause they know it would be a helluva alot easier for us to launch a preemptive strike on them, we wouldnt even have to do anything but press a few buttons.

But seriously, Canada did indeed dissent about the Iraq war.. not just the people, but the govt as well.

I think in matters of truly dissing the US, it's just better all around to let France be vocal.


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OfflineRoseM
Devil's Advocate
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Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,517
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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2068529 - 11/03/03 08:04 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I knew Iraq would come up if I made that comment.

True, they opposed Iraq, but they did nothing to get in America's way... unlike France and Germany.

Canada knows who would be looking out for them if they had lost 3,000 during a hockey bombing in Toronto.


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Fiddlesticks.



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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Rose]
    #2069075 - 11/04/03 12:33 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Canada knows who would be looking out for them if they had lost 3,000 during a hockey bombing in Toronto."
what america would???

well personally I would rather NOT have their help thanks

infact the "CLOSER" my country gets to america , the worse, if america wants to change , and not be .....oh lets see, the greatest threat to the world today, in every way , then maybe I want my country to get cozy to america

until then I dont want to be seen as helping the BULLY when all the "OTHER" kids turn on him
thanks
fuck americas polices!


from BC canada
Psilocybeingz


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: 9/11; The Israeli Connection [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2069356 - 11/04/03 03:57 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Don't tell me you're still bitter about losing Maine?

But yeah... fuck American policies. How this country got so powerful is beyond me.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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