|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
BigButtMinaj
Stranger
Registered: 09/14/14
Posts: 57
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Contamination Questions
#20606464 - 09/23/14 02:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I have inoculated 24 jars and i feel that every single one has become contaminated. what could be the cause? should i have all the jars this close to each other? is it because my pressure cooker only goes up to 12psi?


|
cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,899
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 3 hours, 1 minute
|
|
looks to me like your not using your pc right, purple mold i've only seen from unsterilized grains. make sure to vent your pc for a few minutes before putting the weight on. 12 psi should easily do it too btw
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
|
Sanguin3
Optimist

Registered: 10/19/13
Posts: 2,273
|
Re: Contamination Questions *DELETED* [Re: cronicr]
#20606602 - 09/23/14 03:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by Sanguin3
Reason for deletion: .
|
Stevolindo
Dr.



Registered: 09/08/14
Posts: 26
Last seen: 5 months, 10 hours
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: Sanguin3]
#20608238 - 09/23/14 07:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Is this a danger ? I hate canning all the little mycelia babies! Ugh! I need a glove box. Anyone know where I can find a cheep but a good one?
-------------------- Take two and call me in the morning!
|
bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: Stevolindo]
#20608262 - 09/23/14 08:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
not a glove box for this hobby a still air box. a box with the gloves not attached. They create suction and air currents you don't want that.
Look up SAB teks. You make one yourself for like 10$
|
Stevolindo
Dr.



Registered: 09/08/14
Posts: 26
Last seen: 5 months, 10 hours
|
|
Thank you I will look into it now. I have a week left before I birth my latest cakes. And inoculating them with my spores. Can't wait to be a pro.
-------------------- Take two and call me in the morning!
|
bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
|
|
|
BigButtMinaj
Stranger
Registered: 09/14/14
Posts: 57
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
#20608528 - 09/23/14 09:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
cronicr said: looks to me like your not using your pc right, purple mold i've only seen from unsterilized grains. make sure to vent your pc for a few minutes before putting the weight on. 12 psi should easily do it too btw
Does it matter if the jars touch the water just a little bit? Also if I don't put the weight on when i first turn on the stove should the jars be in there?
Quote:
Sanguin3 said: 12 psi is fine you just need to run it a bit longer. How long are you pcing for?
An hour
Quote:
bodhisatta said: not a glove box for this hobby a still air box. a box with the gloves not attached. They create suction and air currents you don't want that.
Look up SAB teks. You make one yourself for like 10$
Is it okay that I have all the jars next to each other as shown in the third picture in a cardboard box in a closet? If one jar was contaminated would it contaminate all the other ones?
Edited by BigButtMinaj (09/23/14 09:02 PM)
|
bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
|
|
you put the jars in the PC close the PC take the weight or toggle off. let steam come out for a few minutes. put the weight or toggle on. let it build pressure. dial back the heat to maintain pressure. the jars can touch the water but don't have the water more than an inch up the side of the jar. an hour is plenty enough time for a PF cake. all the jars should be out of a box light is good during colonization. They can be next to each other. Every bit of surface and air around you is full of thousands of contaminant spores and bacteria. Your jars don't get infected from that if they're built right so for the same reason they don't get infected by their neighbors. contamination doesn't magically jump from jar to jar. the spores of the contamination have to get to the brown rice flower of the PF cake. The dry vermiculite layer on the top keeps this from happening.
I would read most of the links in that last link I posted and I would read the first link in my signature too
|
Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,870
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
|
|
That purple mold is Fusarium. Whoever made the syringe probably was most likely preparing grain nearby where they were making spore prints.
--------------------
|
BigButtMinaj
Stranger
Registered: 09/14/14
Posts: 57
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: Kizzle]
#20608630 - 09/23/14 09:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
alright thanks I'm just surprised that ALL 24 jars which was like 3 spore syringes just got completely fucked. guess ill try again. i got one syringe left :/
|
bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
|
|
Did you order from a sponsor? or some other place?
You wipe needles with alcohol THEN flame them to red hot. Flame between each jar.
1cc per jar 0.25cc per hole or less.
you are using a dry vermiculite barrier right? BRF cake mix into half pint wide mouth jar then a layer of vermiculite over the top then the lid. No compacting.
Remove foil after the sterilization process don't leave the foil on the lids of your jars.
|
BigButtMinaj
Stranger
Registered: 09/14/14
Posts: 57
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
#20608655 - 09/23/14 09:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
uhmm i use half pint wide mouth jars. alcohol, then flame sterilize, i did fuck up because i only inoculated through one hole but yes i have the dry verm layer and after sterilization and inoculation i left the foil off because people told me to do so. I got the spores from sporebank.
|
bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
|
|
then yea I would point to the syringes just being bad. you did everything else right.
|
Sanguin3
Optimist

Registered: 10/19/13
Posts: 2,273
|
Re: Contamination Questions *DELETED* [Re: bodhisatta]
#20608675 - 09/23/14 09:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by Sanguin3
Reason for deletion: .
|
BigButtMinaj
Stranger
Registered: 09/14/14
Posts: 57
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: Sanguin3]
#20608677 - 09/23/14 09:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
is ralphsters any good?
|
bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
|
|
for microscopy only
|
Ghatti
Totally not a Federal Agent

Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 1,733
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
#20608814 - 09/23/14 10:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Why have water no more than an inch up the jars?
|
bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: Ghatti]
#20608851 - 09/23/14 10:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
superheated steam is the heat transfer mechanism it carries more energy.
|
Ghatti
Totally not a Federal Agent

Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 1,733
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
#20608912 - 09/23/14 10:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Understood. So what temp does the water itself under pressure get to? The steam and water are at 2 different temps?
|
Ghatti
Totally not a Federal Agent

Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 1,733
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: Ghatti]
#20608951 - 09/23/14 10:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Have I not been sterilizing my jars? I was under the impression that as long as it was "wet" heat was what mattered and that the water under 15psi would be just about as hot as the steam itself.
Since water under pressure has a much higher boiling point right?
|
Sanguin3
Optimist

Registered: 10/19/13
Posts: 2,273
|
Re: Contamination Questions *DELETED* [Re: Ghatti]
#20608991 - 09/23/14 10:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by Sanguin3
Reason for deletion: .
|
Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,870
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: Sanguin3]
#20609065 - 09/23/14 10:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
The water and the steam will be at the temperature. Water can splash into short jars like half-pints if they're not elevated a bit.
--------------------
|
bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: Kizzle] 1
#20612552 - 09/24/14 04:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
same temperature in equilibrium. at 15psi the steam and water are about 250F IIRC.
You would think steam would actually transfer heat less since water is more dense right? wrong.
When steam hit's the surface of the thing it's heating up (your glass jar) it condenses they call this "latent heat" so the steam gives up it's energy to the vessel being heated as it condenses on the surface on that vessel. steam is very energetic since it's hard to break hydrogen bonds in water so steam is full of energy it wants to lose to turn back into water. it loses that energy into the glass.
when water is touching your jar the only heat transfer is through convection and conduction which are much slower than the latent heat transfer via steam condensate.
hopefully that made some sense. there's some hefty physics behind why steam does that.
I found an awesome graphic for it
http://www.tlv.com/global/TI/steam-theory/overall-heat-transfer-coefficient.html
click play it shows how steam produces latent heat transfer.
the boil kettle for beer at the place I work operates at 100psi so the steam is 340F or thereabout. We could use water jacketed kettles at 100psi and get the water to 340F to but the heat transfer through stainless is about 20% higher with steam.
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (09/24/14 05:01 PM)
|
Ghatti
Totally not a Federal Agent

Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 1,733
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
#20612718 - 09/24/14 05:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Wow thanks for the science type answer. Good stuff.
|
Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,870
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
#20613626 - 09/24/14 07:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bodhisatta said: same temperature in equilibrium. at 15psi the steam and water are about 250F IIRC.
You would think steam would actually transfer heat less since water is more dense right? wrong.
When steam hit's the surface of the thing it's heating up (your glass jar) it condenses they call this "latent heat" so the steam gives up it's energy to the vessel being heated as it condenses on the surface on that vessel. steam is very energetic since it's hard to break hydrogen bonds in water so steam is full of energy it wants to lose to turn back into water. it loses that energy into the glass.
when water is touching your jar the only heat transfer is through convection and conduction which are much slower than the latent heat transfer via steam condensate.
hopefully that made some sense. there's some hefty physics behind why steam does that.
I found an awesome graphic for it
http://www.tlv.com/global/TI/steam-theory/overall-heat-transfer-coefficient.html
click play it shows how steam produces latent heat transfer.
the boil kettle for beer at the place I work operates at 100psi so the steam is 340F or thereabout. We could use water jacketed kettles at 100psi and get the water to 340F to but the heat transfer through stainless is about 20% higher with steam.
If the water is boiling there should be steam in the water as well shouldn't there?
--------------------
|
Sockadin



Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 7,266
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: Kizzle]
#20614001 - 09/24/14 09:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Water under 15PSI gets to 250 F before it starts to boil. Steam is much less so we have to boil longer.
OP looks like a contaminated syringe is your culprit. I would still do no lss than 90 mins if you are PCing.
|
bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: Sockadin]
#20614237 - 09/24/14 09:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
If the water is boiling there should be steam in the water as well shouldn't there?
steam doesn't dissolve in water but steam exists in equilibrium(in a closed vessel) with the water. Theres steam condensing on the surface of the water just as fast as water turning into steam. Depending on the pressure this exists at a higher or lower temperature. if you add more heat there will be a shift in equilibrium making more steam.
To be noted though super heated steam is what they call saturated. which means the steam is above the heat of vaporization so the steam can lose temperature and still remain steam before condensing. which also helps with heat transfer. that's where I get fuzzy on the steam physics.
|
Sockadin



Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 7,266
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
|
Re: Contamination Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
#20616149 - 09/25/14 09:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah I just reread what I posted the other day. It didn't make sense to me either. Hard posting from your phone sometimes. But yeah what Muda said makes more sense.
|
|