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Onlines240779
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nutes
    #20590288 - 09/19/14 08:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

protein
starch
fiber
fat
minerals
vitamins


Which of these do mushrooms care about?

Edited by s240779 (09/19/14 08:52 PM)

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InvisibleLiquidGlass
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Re: nutes [Re: s240779]
    #20590436 - 09/19/14 09:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

None of that except maybe minerals, but mostly they like nitrogen


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Re: nutes [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #20590467 - 09/19/14 09:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

All of it. Just keep in mind they break down decomposing material. Try not to over think it, just follow the Grain-CVR teks and you will be fine.

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: nutes [Re: Sockadin]
    #20590619 - 09/19/14 10:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Cellulose, some minerals, sugars, maybe carbs - the stuff that goes into agar, grain, and bulk nutes mostly, 'cause that's what makes 'em grow. :thumbup:

:peace:PS


--------------------

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OfflinePurePleasure
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Re: nutes [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #20590759 - 09/19/14 10:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Cellulose, some minerals, sugars, maybe carbs - the stuff that goes into agar, grain, and bulk nutes mostly, 'cause that's what makes 'em grow. :thumbup:

:peace:PS



CVG is nearly nuteless, I believe.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: nutes [Re: PurePleasure]
    #20590990 - 09/19/14 11:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

WHat, this?

Quote:

The CVG recipe is:
1 Brick (650grams) coco coir
2 quarts fine-medium vermiculite
1 cup(2 big handfuls) garden or horticulture gypsum
4-4.5 quarts water




My bulk formula is coir, gypsum, verm, and coffee.  It multiplies the yield by the 4:1 ratio of spawn to sub, so nute-less, uhm, no. :mushroomgrow:



:peace:PS


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InvisibleNumeroEno
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Re: nutes [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #20591118 - 09/20/14 12:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I've not yet had the audacity to fuck with coffee. Is it really worth the drastically increased contam risk?


--------------------

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: nutes [Re: NumeroEno]
    #20591169 - 09/20/14 12:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It's the only way I've done bulk, and I don't get contams.  But I cook the mix pretty close to 200F for a couple hours, could be that at regular pasteurization temps (160) it might be a risk. :shrug:

:peace:PS

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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: nutes [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #20591413 - 09/20/14 01:36 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Every time I've used coir and or vermiculite, I have had very disappointing feedback on potency. Ever since I've stopped going the "cheap route" and buckled down to give my mycelium a balanced nutritional diet, I have had extremely positive feedback from family and friends. I love this hobby and I love nutritional science. When my only profit is the feedback I receive , it really hurts when it's only negative. Yes mycelium can digest coir and verm but people can just as well digest a fast food burger, doesn't mean it contains optimal nutrition. Without the right nutrients living organisms can not synthesize all that is needed for digestion, immunity and reproduction. We all know that mycelium produces psychoactive alkalines during the reproductive stage. I may not know exactly what all it needs nutritionally but I figured if I provided everything, then it would not be missing anything it may need to be at it's peak performance.

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20591481 - 09/20/14 02:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

See I was wondering about different grains and nutrient profile, but I've never used anything but PF cakes and WBS. I was thinking a about throwing a small amount of horse manure next time but I'm leery about using the bucket tek. Was thinking 60:30:10 coir:verm:hpoo and soaking some grain in coffee and a bit of gypsum to balance the ph. Thinking about using spelt berries next time with the PE. One of these days when I get agar down...


--------------------

:gd_icon:  Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield!  :gd_icon:
What shall we say, shall we call it by a name
As well to count the angels dancing on a pin
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And the name is on the earth that takes it in

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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: nutes [Re: NumeroEno]
    #20591489 - 09/20/14 02:31 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Do you have a tractor supply store near you?

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20591577 - 09/20/14 03:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Coir has as much food for fungi as horse manure and will grow very similar crops to horse manure. In addition, potency is genetic and environmentaly determined, and is not related to choice of substrate.
RR




Quote:

Coir is the equal of horse manure for growing straw and dung loving mushrooms.  If you want to 'boost' the coir, add shredded straw or even pull the weeds out of your garden and shred them to use in your substrates.
RR




Quote:

The more actual plant material or manure you mix in the better, and a variety of substrate materials will always outperform any one of them alone.  Just don't make the mistake of thinking 'plant nutrients' will do anything for your mycelium.  Plants want to grow on what the mushroom mycelium leaves behind, and mushroom mycelium likes to grow on dried and/or composted plant material.
RR





Quote:

Coir may be fairly nutrient free as far as plants are concerned, but it has plenty of nutes that fungi love. I've spawned rye into pure coir, and had results as well or better than spawning to cow manure. I think most of us by now add gypsum to our substrates(if not we should) so the calcium is added at that time.

My biggest gripe with coir is the cost. It's much more expensive than other ingredients that do as well or better job. Perhaps if one lives in an area where coconuts are produced it is cheaper, but for us city dwellers that must go to the hydro or pet store, there are other substrate ingredients that are better and cheaper. After a few years of experimenting, I've purchased the last brick of coir I intend to unless I move to a desert island in the tropics.
RR




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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20591676 - 09/20/14 05:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:
Every time I've used coir and or vermiculite, I have had very disappointing feedback on potency. Ever since I've stopped going the "cheap route" and buckled down to give my mycelium a balanced nutritional diet, I have had extremely positive feedback from family and friends.



MS genetics or isolates?

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Re: nutes [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #20592199 - 09/20/14 10:18 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:
Every time I've used coir and or vermiculite, I have had very disappointing feedback on potency. Ever since I've stopped going the "cheap route" and buckled down to give my mycelium a balanced nutritional diet, I have had extremely positive feedback from family and friends. I love this hobby and I love nutritional science. When my only profit is the feedback I receive , it really hurts when it's only negative. Yes mycelium can digest coir and verm but people can just as well digest a fast food burger, doesn't mean it contains optimal nutrition. Without the right nutrients living organisms can not synthesize all that is needed for digestion, immunity and reproduction. We all know that mycelium produces psychoactive alkalines during the reproductive stage. I may not know exactly what all it needs nutritionally but I figured if I provided everything, then it would not be missing anything it may need to be at it's peak performance.



I've got to agree with you man. And I've said it before with a lot of grief from others. Well balanced diet is key. Well put.

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Coir has as much food for fungi as horse manure and will grow very similar crops to horse manure. In addition, potency is genetic and environmentaly determined, and is not related to choice of substrate.
RR




Quote:

Coir is the equal of horse manure for growing straw and dung loving mushrooms.  If you want to 'boost' the coir, add shredded straw or even pull the weeds out of your garden and shred them to use in your substrates.
RR




Quote:

The more actual plant material or manure you mix in the better, and a variety of substrate materials will always outperform any one of them alone.  Just don't make the mistake of thinking 'plant nutrients' will do anything for your mycelium.  Plants want to grow on what the mushroom mycelium leaves behind, and mushroom mycelium likes to grow on dried and/or composted plant material.
RR





Quote:

Coir may be fairly nutrient free as far as plants are concerned, but it has plenty of nutes that fungi love. I've spawned rye into pure coir, and had results as well or better than spawning to cow manure. I think most of us by now add gypsum to our substrates(if not we should) so the calcium is added at that time.

My biggest gripe with coir is the cost. It's much more expensive than other ingredients that do as well or better job. Perhaps if one lives in an area where coconuts are produced it is cheaper, but for us city dwellers that must go to the hydro or pet store, there are other substrate ingredients that are better and cheaper. After a few years of experimenting, I've purchased the last brick of coir I intend to unless I move to a desert island in the tropics.
RR






And your point?  RR is a wannabe like everyone else here


--------------------


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20592382 - 09/20/14 11:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:
Every time I've used coir and or vermiculite, I have had very disappointing feedback on potency. Ever since I've stopped going the "cheap route" and buckled down to give my mycelium a balanced nutritional diet, I have had extremely positive feedback from family and friends. I love this hobby and I love nutritional science. When my only profit is the feedback I receive , it really hurts when it's only negative. Yes mycelium can digest coir and verm but people can just as well digest a fast food burger, doesn't mean it contains optimal nutrition. Without the right nutrients living organisms can not synthesize all that is needed for digestion, immunity and reproduction. We all know that mycelium produces psychoactive alkalines during the reproductive stage. I may not know exactly what all it needs nutritionally but I figured if I provided everything, then it would not be missing anything it may need to be at it's peak performance.




Not my experience at all.  Just saying. :shrug: 

Anyway, fungi aren't plants (or animals), they need gypsum, and the coffee grounds don't hurt anything.  I get better potency and fruiting off my bulk mix than off of straight cased rye, and nobody claims grains are deficient for growing. :lol:

Yeah, well, works good.  For me anyway.  YMMV.

:peace:PS


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

Edited by PrimalSoup (09/20/14 11:42 AM)

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OfflinePurePleasure
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Re: nutes [Re: azur]
    #20592538 - 09/20/14 12:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

azur said:
Quote:

insanemike said:
Every time I've used coir and or vermiculite, I have had very disappointing feedback on potency. Ever since I've stopped going the "cheap route" and buckled down to give my mycelium a balanced nutritional diet, I have had extremely positive feedback from family and friends. I love this hobby and I love nutritional science. When my only profit is the feedback I receive , it really hurts when it's only negative. Yes mycelium can digest coir and verm but people can just as well digest a fast food burger, doesn't mean it contains optimal nutrition. Without the right nutrients living organisms can not synthesize all that is needed for digestion, immunity and reproduction. We all know that mycelium produces psychoactive alkalines during the reproductive stage. I may not know exactly what all it needs nutritionally but I figured if I provided everything, then it would not be missing anything it may need to be at it's peak performance.



I've got to agree with you man. And I've said it before with a lot of grief from others. Well balanced diet is key. Well put.

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Quote:

Coir has as much food for fungi as horse manure and will grow very similar crops to horse manure. In addition, potency is genetic and environmentaly determined, and is not related to choice of substrate.
RR




Quote:

Coir is the equal of horse manure for growing straw and dung loving mushrooms.  If you want to 'boost' the coir, add shredded straw or even pull the weeds out of your garden and shred them to use in your substrates.
RR




Quote:

The more actual plant material or manure you mix in the better, and a variety of substrate materials will always outperform any one of them alone.  Just don't make the mistake of thinking 'plant nutrients' will do anything for your mycelium.  Plants want to grow on what the mushroom mycelium leaves behind, and mushroom mycelium likes to grow on dried and/or composted plant material.
RR





Quote:

Coir may be fairly nutrient free as far as plants are concerned, but it has plenty of nutes that fungi love. I've spawned rye into pure coir, and had results as well or better than spawning to cow manure. I think most of us by now add gypsum to our substrates(if not we should) so the calcium is added at that time.

My biggest gripe with coir is the cost. It's much more expensive than other ingredients that do as well or better job. Perhaps if one lives in an area where coconuts are produced it is cheaper, but for us city dwellers that must go to the hydro or pet store, there are other substrate ingredients that are better and cheaper. After a few years of experimenting, I've purchased the last brick of coir I intend to unless I move to a desert island in the tropics.
RR






And your point?  RR is a wannabe like everyone else here



:rofl:
I think coir is good for a bulk sub or casing
. But nutes? Not really. I think that's why most molds can't sporulate on just coir.


--------------------
If you aren't happy with what you have now, how could you be any happier with more?  (Get your SGFC high.)



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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: nutes [Re: PurePleasure]
    #20592543 - 09/20/14 12:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PurePleasure said:
Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Cellulose, some minerals, sugars, maybe carbs - the stuff that goes into agar, grain, and bulk nutes mostly, 'cause that's what makes 'em grow. :thumbup:

:peace:PS



CVG is nearly nuteless, I believe.




It really depends on what organism you're talking about.  Lots of things can and do digest coir, including cubensis, which means it has nutrients.  It's rich in cellulose and lignin, and probably has a pretty high mineral content.  For lower fungi, I'd agree that it is nearly nuteless, so skip the coir when you're buying materials for your mold farm, PurePleasure.

Manure has a much higher amount of lipids and proteins than does coir, and if fungi can break down proteins (hint: they can) they'll benefit from the increased nitrogen or even the pre-constructed amino acids, because pretty much all organisms use the same peptides.  I agree with those above that a supplemented substrate will probably perform better than straight coir/verm, but it also increases the risk of contamination by making the substrate more attractive to other fungi.


--------------------
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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: nutes [Re: Psilicon]
    #20592694 - 09/20/14 12:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
For lower fungi, I'd agree that it is nearly nuteless, so skip the coir when you're buying materials for your mold farm, PurePleasure.




God-damn nut and shell there. :laugh2:

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Re: nutes [Re: Psilicon]
    #20593014 - 09/20/14 02:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
Quote:

PurePleasure said:
Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Cellulose, some minerals, sugars, maybe carbs - the stuff that goes into agar, grain, and bulk nutes mostly, 'cause that's what makes 'em grow. :thumbup:

:peace:PS



CVG is nearly nuteless, I believe.




It really depends on what organism you're talking about.  Lots of things can and do digest coir, including cubensis, which means it has nutrients.  It's rich in cellulose and lignin, and probably has a pretty high mineral content.  For lower fungi, I'd agree that it is nearly nuteless, so skip the coir when you're buying materials for your mold farm, PurePleasure.

Manure has a much higher amount of lipids and proteins than does coir, and if fungi can break down proteins (hint: they can) they'll benefit from the increased nitrogen or even the pre-constructed amino acids, because pretty much all organisms use the same peptides.  I agree with those above that a supplemented substrate will probably perform better than straight coir/verm, but it also increases the risk of contamination by making the substrate more attractive to other fungi.



Good to know.


--------------------
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Re: nutes [Re: PurePleasure]
    #20593062 - 09/20/14 02:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PurePleasure said:

. But nutes? Not really. I think that's why most molds can't sporulate on just coir.



molds can easily sporulate on coir, but mold spores don't easily germinate on coir however live mold mycelium will devour it


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Re: nutes [Re: PurePleasure]
    #20593077 - 09/20/14 02:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PurePleasure said:
. But nutes? Not really. I think that's why most molds can't sporulate on just coir.



Don't think that spore don't germinate on coir because of the low nutes. I'm not sure but I think it has something to do with the amount of salts per parts or something. If i find the link I'll post it... Just don't take my word for it.


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Re: nutes [Re: Dekozn]
    #20593197 - 09/20/14 03:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It's not what I was looking for but it kinda gives some explanation can't find the article I was talking about. This pdf also doesn't explain  why spores won't germinate on coir...
www.agrococo.com/.../LIMING_PROPERTIES_OF_AGROCOIR.pdf


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Re: nutes [Re: Dekozn]
    #20593229 - 09/20/14 03:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I've never once had a complaint about potency on my coir grows. And those have all been multispore.


--------------------
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OfflinePurePleasure
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Re: nutes [Re: cronicr]
    #20596322 - 09/21/14 09:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
Quote:

PurePleasure said:

. But nutes? Not really. I think that's why most molds can't sporulate on just coir.



molds can easily sporulate on coir, but mold spores don't easily germinate on coir however live mold mycelium will devour it



:takingnotes:


--------------------
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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: nutes [Re: PurePleasure]
    #20605438 - 09/23/14 10:26 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
Quote:

PurePleasure said:
Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Cellulose, some minerals, sugars, maybe carbs - the stuff that goes into agar, grain, and bulk nutes mostly, 'cause that's what makes 'em grow. :thumbup:

:peace:PS



CVG is nearly nuteless, I believe.




It really depends on what organism you're talking about.  Lots of things can and do digest coir, including cubensis, which means it has nutrients.  It's rich in cellulose and lignin, and probably has a pretty high mineral content.  For lower fungi, I'd agree that it is nearly nuteless, so skip the coir when you're buying materials for your mold farm, PurePleasure.

Manure has a much higher amount of lipids and proteins than does coir, and if fungi can break down proteins (hint: they can) they'll benefit from the increased nitrogen or even the pre-constructed amino acids, because pretty much all organisms use the same peptides.  I agree with those above that a supplemented substrate will probably perform better than straight coir/verm, but it also increases the risk of contamination by making the substrate more attractive to other fungi.




I hate to break it to you but just because you can digest a McDonald's double cheese burger, doesn't make it nutritious. I by know means understand the diet of cubensis mycelium but I figured if I provide it with everything that nutritiondata.self.com provides on there website, I can't go wrong.
Quote:

PussyFart said:
Quote:

insanemike said:
Every time I've used coir and or vermiculite, I have had very disappointing feedback on potency. Ever since I've stopped going the "cheap route" and buckled down to give my mycelium a balanced nutritional diet, I have had extremely positive feedback from family and friends.



MS genetics or isolates?




MS. I had used the same LC with the CVG in three different tubs before trying to change h
ow I approached things. It just can't be coincidence that the first 3 tubs were disappointing and then I focus on nutrition and pow there goes the potency and it's been great ever since.

Quote:

PurePleasure said:
Quote:

azur said:
Quote:

insanemike said:
Every time I've used coir and or vermiculite, I have had very disappointing feedback on potency. Ever since I've stopped going the "cheap route" and buckled down to give my mycelium a balanced nutritional diet, I have had extremely positive feedback from family and friends. I love this hobby and I love nutritional science. When my only profit is the feedback I receive , it really hurts when it's only negative. Yes mycelium can digest coir and verm but people can just as well digest a fast food burger, doesn't mean it contains optimal nutrition. Without the right nutrients living organisms can not synthesize all that is needed for digestion, immunity and reproduction. We all know that mycelium produces psychoactive alkalines during the reproductive stage. I may not know exactly what all it needs nutritionally but I figured if I provided everything, then it would not be missing anything it may need to be at it's peak performance.



I've got to agree with you man. And I've said it before with a lot of grief from others. Well balanced diet is key. Well put

If you like, you can PM me and we can discuss a few things about nutrition.

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20605456 - 09/23/14 10:31 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:
MS. I had used the same LC with the CVG in three different tubs before trying to change h
ow I approached things. It just can't be coincidence that the first 3 tubs were disappointing and then I focus on nutrition and pow there goes the potency and it's been great ever since.



Sure it can.....anything is possible with MS genetics.....

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20605483 - 09/23/14 10:36 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Its possible that your ms LC had a fair amount of genetic recombination leading to similar results everytime you used it. Also as PF alluded to, 3 ms grows is hardly representative of the possiblities. I have grown cubes on coir that will blow your head out your ass. Stop dicking around with ms LC and learn how to grow consistently potent fruits using isolates. You will be happy you did.

MS LC is a waste anyway, if I'm gonna take the chance and use an LC I'm gonna be damn sure the results are worth the risk. Crap pinsets and bunk fruits ain't worth that risk IMO.

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Re: nutes [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #20605540 - 09/23/14 10:49 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:whathesaid: Neither is the risk of inoculating an LC with a dirty MS syringe.....always go to agar before making an LC.....just to make sure your inoculant is clean....

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Re: nutes [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #20605555 - 09/23/14 10:53 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Quote:

van der griegen said:
For lower fungi, I'd agree that it is nearly nuteless, so skip the coir when you're buying materials for your mold farm, PurePleasure.




God-damn nut and shell there. :laugh2:

:peace:PS




First of all, most of my nutrition is added to grain jars before serlization. If it's 100% colonized than it has zero risk of contaminating after that. Second, I PROPERLY pasteurize my bulk substrate. Last but not least I never go over 66% substrate per tub and when I spawn my colonized grain to my sub, I pack it down tight. It takes approximately 8 days to fully colonize and when it does it looks like a giant frosted cake. It takes another 2 weeks to pin. I believe this is because it continues eating the substrate, possibly storing energy before fruiting. It's surface is a rubber type texture and is fully resistant to contams as long as there is no exposed substrate, so mix well. I have not pulled a single mushroom that weighed under 10g wet.

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Re: nutes [Re: PussyFart]
    #20605563 - 09/23/14 10:56 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I've dabbled in isolating cultures on agar. I plan on getting serious though, just wanted to focus on nutrition and environmental factors before messing with genetics. I figured if I can consistently get good results with MS, I will be upping my game if I start using those same concepts with aggressive isolates.

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20605584 - 09/23/14 11:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:
If it's 100% colonized than it has zero risk of contaminating after that.



Not true.....fully colonized means contam resistant, to a degree.......

Quote:

insanemike said:
It's surface is a rubber type texture and is fully resistant to contams as long as there is no exposed substrate, so mix well.



There is always going to be exposed substrate when spawning bulk.....not sure what you are trying to get at here.......a rubbery texture is not a good thing.

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20605613 - 09/23/14 11:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:
I've dabbled in isolating cultures on agar. I plan on getting serious though, just wanted to focus on nutrition and environmental factors before messing with genetics. I figured if I can consistently get good results with MS, I will be upping my game if I start using those same concepts with aggressive isolates.




Except its still a crapshoot with ms, as you found. By your reasoning Gary Colman should be able to beat the shit outta Mike Tyson as long as he eats his veggies and gets a good nights sleep.

Even if substrate composition affected potency marginally, the only way you could qualify your results would be with an isolate run side by side with different substrates.

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Re: nutes [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #20605634 - 09/23/14 11:17 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PussyFart said:
Quote:

insanemike said:
If it's 100% colonized than it has zero risk of contaminating after that.



Not true.....fully colonized means contam resistant, to a degree.......

Quote:

insanemike said:
It's surface is a rubber type texture and is fully resistant to contams as long as there is no exposed substrate, so mix well.



There is always going to be exposed substrate when spawning bulk.....not sure what you are trying to get at here.......a rubbery texture is not a good thing.




Yeah the texture seems to be one solid mass and it fruits great. I was fruiting them straight from 11×9×2 press n seal lined aluminum trays. The trays fit right into a 27qt sterlite tub. I pulled an average of 1 dry oz from 4 of them over a 2 week fruiting period.

Sorry about the exposed substrate thing, I meant to say, make sure it's 100% colonized before birthing ( I know I stated the obvious) Do you mind if I PM you, pussyfart? I have a few questions about my agar/isolate idea, I would love some advice.
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

insanemike said:
I've dabbled in isolating cultures on agar. I plan on getting serious though, just wanted to focus on nutrition and environmental factors before messing with genetics. I figured if I can consistently get good results with MS, I will be upping my game if I start using those same concepts with aggressive isolates.




Except its still a crapshoot with ms, as you found. By your reasoning Gary Colman should be able to beat the shit outta Mike Tyson as long as he eats his veggies and gets a good nights sleep.

Edit: No! I'm not saying Colman would have ever been able to beat Tyson. What I'm saying is what if your isolates could be more like an Olympic lifter rather than a body builder. One looks strong while the other is strong. Without a healthy balanced diet and exercise, genetics will only get you so far.

Even if substrate composition affected potency marginally, the only way you could qualify your results would be with an isolate run side by side with different substrates.




I plan on doing that exact experiment when I get the isolates going.

Edited by insanemike (09/23/14 11:25 AM)

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20605978 - 09/23/14 12:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:

MS. I had used the same LC with the CVG in three different tubs before trying to change h
ow I approached things. It just can't be coincidence that the first 3 tubs were disappointing and then I focus on nutrition and pow there goes the potency and it's been great ever since.




:havesomescience:

  Adding some nutes to a substandard sub will get you much further than adding any amount of unnecessary supplements to an adequate sub.  Just sayin'.

Quote:

when I spawn my colonized grain to my sub, I pack it down tight.




Ewwh.  Really excellent, not is. :yoda2:

Quote:

It's surface is a rubber type texture




Ewwh.  See above...

Quote:


I've dabbled in isolating cultures on agar. I plan on getting serious though, just wanted to focus on nutrition and environmental factors before messing with genetics. I figured if I can consistently get good results with MS, I will be upping my game if I start using those same concepts with aggressive isolates.





Fuck, man, just get down with it. Genetics trump all other factors.  Nobody gets "consistency" from MS, MS is always the crapshoot its name implies.

:peace:PS


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Edited by PrimalSoup (09/23/14 01:02 PM)

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Re: nutes [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #20606047 - 09/23/14 01:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Fuck, man, just get down with it. Genetics trump all other factors.  Nobody gets "consistency" from MS, MS is always the crapshoot its name implies.

:peace:PS




:whathesaid:

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Re: nutes [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #20606107 - 09/23/14 01:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Quote:

insanemike said:

MS. I had used the same LC with the CVG in three different tubs before trying to change h
ow I approached things. It just can't be coincidence that the first 3 tubs were disappointing and then I focus on nutrition and pow there goes the potency and it's been great ever since.




:havesomescience:

  Adding some nutes to a substandard sub will get you much further than adding any amount of unnecessary supplements to an adequate sub.  Just sayin'.

Quote:

when I spawn my colonized grain to my sub, I pack it down tight.




Ewwh.  Really excellent, not is. :yoda2:

:peace:PS




Who said I was adding unnecessary supplements? I never told you what i even used for a sub, let alone what I add to it. Don't jump to some hollow conclusions about what I do and don't do. How many in this community actually weigh every ingredient used in a grow. I weigh my jars everyday. Did you know that jars lose weight? They lose at least a few grams during a colonization period. In fact all my jars are within 1% of each other in weight. I weigh everything at every stage. I moved on to trays because they are easiest to Keep track of moisture loss. I know exactly how much water is used in every tray, from grain water content to water weight in sub. Approximately,  how much water is in each one of your tubs. If you can't remove all variables beside the one being experimented, you've already lost this battle.

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20606130 - 09/23/14 01:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:lmafo:


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Re: nutes [Re: cronicr]
    #20606150 - 09/23/14 01:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Did you know that jars lose weight?




Do you know why? Because water and nutes are processed into energy and the byproduct is CO2. Jesus man, do you honestly think your not the first person to try what your attempting? If there was a magic substrate that increased potency we would all be using it. Oh and. . .

Quote:

cronicr said:
:lmafo:




:whathesaid:

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Re: nutes [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #20606274 - 09/23/14 01:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

In fact all my jars are within 1% of each other in weight. I weigh everything at every stage. I moved on to trays because they are easiest to Keep track of moisture loss. I know exactly how much water is used in every tray, from grain water content to water weight in sub. Approximately,  how much water is in each one of your tubs. If you can't remove all variables beside the one being experimented, you've already lost this battle.





You are over thinking it. The acronym KISS comes to mind here( Keep it simple, stupid)

And as pasty said, If there was some magic formula to get higher yields and/or better potency, we'dd all be uising it by now I think


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Re: nutes [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #20606302 - 09/23/14 01:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The magic formula is hpoo. But most here are too lazy to use it.


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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20606316 - 09/23/14 01:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:
Who said I was adding unnecessary supplements? I never told you what i even used for a sub, let alone what I add to it... blah blah blah...




I'm good with that. :whateveryousayfreak:

:peace:PS


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Re: nutes [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #20606327 - 09/23/14 02:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This is suppose to be a fun hobby and the TC's of this community suck all the fun right out of it. As soon as someone has an idea or asks about something such as nutrients you big bullies start trying to cram agar, rye berries and CVG down our throats. The TC's job is too make sure no one is giving out bad info, causing trouble or breaking the rules. Their job is not to ridicule someone for having an idea that is not on the so called "beaten path" that most of us seem to follow. I for one refuse to settle for "this is the way it is and like it" attitude. You can't tell me that everything has already been experimented with, let alone has been experimented with under very strict conditions.  Can someone tell me what the biological purpose and process for synthesizing psilocybin? If you can't answer that then the mycological community doesn't know everything there is to know about growing these particular mushrooms. That in itself gives me and everyone else the right to experiment all we want and there is nothing you can do about it.

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20606338 - 09/23/14 02:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:
This is suppose to be a fun hobby and the TC's of this community suck all the fun right out of it. As soon as someone has an idea or asks about something such as nutrients you big bullies start trying to cram agar, rye berries and CVG down our throats. The TC's job is too make sure no one is giving out bad info, causing trouble or breaking the rules. Their job is not to ridicule someone for having an idea that is not on the so called "beaten path" that most of us seem to follow. I for one refuse to settle for "this is the way it is and like it" attitude. You can't tell me that everything has already been experimented with, let alone has been experimented with under very strict conditions.  Can someone tell me what the biological purpose and process for synthesizing psilocybin? If you can't answer that then the mycological community doesn't know everything there is to know about growing these particular mushrooms. That in itself gives me and everyone else the right to experiment all we want and there is nothing you can do about it.




:drunkdriver:


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Re: nutes [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #20606369 - 09/23/14 02:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not saying not to use poo, or straw or whatever.  I haven't used rye berries in 8 months but i do have 2 LC's going. I like poo and straw and worm castings n stuff. I am simply trying to let you know that you could import zebra poo from africa and still grow bunk cubes on it :shrug:

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Re: nutes [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #20606379 - 09/23/14 02:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

as a tc my job is nuthing, were not tc's to stop bad avise were not tc's because we know evrything were not tc's because wre nice were not tc's to make people feel better...were tc's because our advise is solid and have proven to be.

your not obligated to listen to anybody but if your afraid of the critisism dont' post w/o results or post to your journal where you are the mod and have control, this is mush cult where evrybody is entitled to an opinion it's up to you how to take it


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Re: nutes [Re: cronicr]
    #20606381 - 09/23/14 02:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

this also isn't your thread lol


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Re: nutes [Re: azur]
    #20606391 - 09/23/14 02:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

azur said:
The magic formula is hpoo. But most here are too lazy to use it.




Good point however, depending on where people live horse poo can be incredibly hard to get, especially if you are in a major city with no horses nearby


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Re: nutes [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #20606441 - 09/23/14 02:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'll go balls in and say fuck nutes, if you're doing grains to bulk in a normal ratio (1:1 - 1:4) you'll have more nutes than your sub will ever need or use!

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Re: nutes [Re: spacechildo]
    #20606852 - 09/23/14 03:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Exactly.  But there is a secret sub ingredient but since it's a secret nobody knows about it... UNTIL NOW!

All it takes is a mad scientist



or a time machine



and you can harvest (nearly) unlimited quantities of



THAT'S RIGHT!  DINO POO!  THE SECRET INGREDIENT OF THE AGES!



(often instigated, never respirated, order before midnight tonight)

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Re: nutes [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #20606874 - 09/23/14 03:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:fuckinawesome:  :justastonishing:  :girlishjoy:

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Re: nutes [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #20606895 - 09/23/14 03:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

.......


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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20609059 - 09/23/14 10:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:
This is suppose to be a fun hobby and the TC's of this community suck all the fun right out of it. As soon as someone has an idea or asks about something such as nutrients you big bullies start trying to cram agar, rye berries and CVG down our throats. The TC's job is too make sure no one is giving out bad info, causing trouble or breaking the rules. Their job is not to ridicule someone for having an idea that is not on the so called "beaten path" that most of us seem to follow. I for one refuse to settle for "this is the way it is and like it" attitude. You can't tell me that everything has already been experimented with, let alone has been experimented with under very strict conditions.  Can someone tell me what the biological purpose and process for synthesizing psilocybin? If you can't answer that then the mycological community doesn't know everything there is to know about growing these particular mushrooms. That in itself gives me and everyone else the right to experiment all we want and there is nothing you can do about it.




I really don't care what you or anyone else does after you get the advice we give.  What I really don't want is to have to deal with another heartbroken newb who's wondering why his cakes are all fucked after he inoculated with a MS LC, or why his grow is contaminated because he started using supplements before he had proper pasteurization down.  What I really, REALLY don't want is for that to happen and for that person to link to a thread where I posted but didn't correct some bad info or recommend what are currently considered best practices.

A good rule of thumb is that if you still have to ask questions about it the answer is that you aren't ready.

I'm not a bully, and neither are these TCs.  I urge everyone to experiment once they've got the basics down.  Fuck, I urge everyone to experiment at every stage along the way.  I'm just a librarian who's here to point you, but more importantly the lurkers and the newbs to come, in the right direction.  If you ever think I'm riding your balls, know that I'm not--I'm just sharing a chapter out of my extensive personal catalogue of failure.  Cool?


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Re: nutes [Re: Psilicon]
    #20609330 - 09/23/14 11:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, we are cool. Thanks for not taking a personal shot at me like others have. I understand your reason for questioning my methods. I simply stated LC because that is what I used. I did not in anyway advocate LC over agar. I know that there is less risk involved when dealing with agar. I on the other hand do believe if people are so easily discouraged and turned away by failure, they aren't in it for the long haul anyhow. These types of growers are only here to learn how to make a quick buck. These growers should be weaned out, not encouraged. This forum should exist for the sole purpose of learning and discovery, and not for what is the cheapest route to grow the most mushrooms. That in itself is advocating and supporting the idea of turning what is illegal into a business venture (which is against the rules). This should not be tolerated or encouraged. If someone's only argument is based on price of meterials then their argument is there for invalid. Telling someone that there is nothing left to discover is the opposite of the mentality everyone on the forum should have. I hope we can come to some kind of understanding and be able to work it out in a professional manner.  So if anyone here would like to discuss this any further with me, please pm me. Sorry op for jacking your thread.

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20609336 - 09/23/14 11:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:firstladyofapproval:


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Re: nutes [Re: cronicr]
    #20609369 - 09/24/14 12:00 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:
I believe this is because it continues eating the substrate, possibly storing energy before fruiting.



it will eat more of the substrate at frutiing which is when you want it too, you want it to colonize at high co2 levels to stop it from devouring the substrate during colonization so it can happen at fruiting not the other way around


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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: nutes [Re: cronicr]
    #20609384 - 09/24/14 12:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
Quote:

insanemike said:
I believe this is because it continues eating the substrate, possibly storing energy before fruiting.



it will eat more of the substrate at frutiing which is when you want it too, you want it to colonize at high co2 levels to stop it from devouring the substrate during colonization so it can happen at fruiting not the other way around




Thanks for clearing that up for me, good to know. It just seemed CVG pinned with in 2 weeks of spawning and when I changed my growing methods it consistently pins 2-3 weeks after full colonization. So, you can see how I interpreted this notion.

EDIT: what I should have said is it takes 2 weeks to pin after introducing it to fruiting conditions which would have made my statement and your statement correct.

Edited by insanemike (09/24/14 12:14 AM)

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20609404 - 09/24/14 12:21 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:lol: get a good potent isolate and complaints will never be an issue:cool: for subs i've used anything and almost everything but never do i put much thought in potency i just chow till i'm happy


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Re: nutes [Re: cronicr]
    #20609458 - 09/24/14 12:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The nutrients for the first couple flushes are usually stored in the mycelium before fruiting even starts. It largely comes from the starch in the spawn but it requires other nutrients as well obviously. The digestion that occurs later is mainly of chemicals like cellulose and lignin which I guess would fall under fiber.


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Re: nutes [Re: Kizzle]
    #20609489 - 09/24/14 12:56 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:super: always enjoy your posts


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Re: nutes [Re: Kizzle]
    #20609572 - 09/24/14 01:29 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kizzle said:
The nutrients for the first couple flushes are usually stored in the mycelium before fruiting even starts. It largely comes from the starch in the spawn but it requires other nutrients as well obviously. The digestion that occurs later is mainly of chemicals like cellulose and lignin which I guess would fall under fiber.




Where does the breakdown of proteins and fats play a role in the chemical processes within the network? Is the cultures ability to breakdown food and to convert it into digestive and immunity enzymes related to carbs? I was under the impression that carbs are for energy, protein is for building cells and fats are for releasing hormones in which control these processes. Genetics will only get you so far. If you were to compare the American diet from a century ago with the diet we live off of today, you might be able to understand why our genetic flaws are so exposed. The rate at which people become diabetic, suffer from heart disease and are diagnosed with cancer are at an alarming rate compared to 100 years ago. If your mother did not provide you with proper nutrition while in the womb and than after birth inherited that same diet and you passed that diet on to your kids, eventually our genetics can not save us from our own self inflicted demise. To conclude, proper nutrition maybe more important in the long run rather than just based off of our superficial idea of what a successful grow is. Or maybe I'm just a lost cause looking for something other than a good time. Lol

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20609575 - 09/24/14 01:31 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Mushrooms are not people


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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20609584 - 09/24/14 01:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Cells are built out of chitin, a modified glucose polymer.  Glucose can be obtained by breaking down either cellulose or starch.


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Re: nutes [Re: LiquidGlass]
    #20609587 - 09/24/14 01:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Mushrooms are not people



:takingnotes:
(don't ya hate it when you become the first post on a new page and your post makes zero sense after)


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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20609617 - 09/24/14 01:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:
Is the cultures ability to breakdown food and to convert it into digestive and immunity enzymes related to carbs? I was under the impression that carbs are for energy, protein is for building cells and fats are for releasing hormones in which control these processes.




Mushrooms are not people.

There ya go.

:peace:PS


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Re: nutes [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #20609621 - 09/24/14 01:49 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:lol:


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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: nutes [Re: cronicr]
    #20609652 - 09/24/14 02:05 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I know mushrooms aren't people, thanks for stating the obvious. I want to discover how and why these internal processes for mycelium work and how genetics and NUTRITION play a role. Telling me that nutrition doesn't matter, is like telling me you can grow mushrooms with vermiculite. As long as it can digest it, it must be food. I refuse to accept that answer. I feel no need to respond to anymore statements made toward me on this thread. I know I'm no expert but it does not keep me from experimenting and drawing my own conclusions. Good day!

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20609824 - 09/24/14 04:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:
I know mushrooms aren't people, thanks for stating the obvious. I want to discover how and why these internal processes for mycelium work and how genetics and NUTRITION play a role. Telling me that nutrition doesn't matter, is like telling me you can grow mushrooms with vermiculite. As long as it can digest it, it must be food. I refuse to accept that answer. I feel no need to respond to anymore statements made toward me on this thread. I know I'm no expert but it does not keep me from experimenting and drawing my own conclusions. Good day!




If you don't want to respond to statements made toward you then you should probably not make so many posts that will most likely evoke a response.

Anyway, it sounds like you should go school and major in mycology. You will definitely find your answers by taking that route but, seriously why does it matter. Why do mushrooms like verm and coir and poop? I don't know but, I know how to get them all to work good together and that is what really matters to me anyway.

How does your cell phone work and do all the functions it does? How does plastic and metal make 1's and 0's able to call another person or take a pic? I dont know that either but I know how to use it and make it do what I want to do.

Why are boobs good? Why is a tree good? Why is a sunset good? Why is coir good?
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Re: nutes [Re: cronicr]
    #20609825 - 09/24/14 04:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
Quote:

LiquidGlass said:
Mushrooms are not people



:takingnotes:
(don't ya hate it when you become the first post on a new page and your post makes zero sense after)





hahaha yep


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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20610124 - 09/24/14 06:54 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

insanemike said:
I know mushrooms aren't people, thanks for stating the obvious. I want to discover how and why these internal processes for mycelium work and how genetics and NUTRITION play a role. Telling me that nutrition doesn't matter, is like telling me you can grow mushrooms with vermiculite. As long as it can digest it, it must be food. I refuse to accept that answer. I feel no need to respond to anymore statements made toward me on this thread. I know I'm no expert but it does not keep me from experimenting and drawing my own conclusions. Good day!




Just because you can ASK a question that the answer isn't known too doesn't mean you UNDERSTAND the questions to which the answer IS known to. It pisses me off in fields in which I actually AM an expert as well. :shrug:

Study more, 'cause without at least a rudimentary understanding of some of that (including the basic fact that you keep missing which is that fungi are neither plants NOR animals) you're falling into chasms of misunderstanding that are blinding you to the way things work with them, whether or not every last detail of that way of working has been deciphered. Big hint - "enzymes".  Understand that in fungi and you'll unlock a whole lot of digestive and adaptive mysteries.

Nobody here is out to get you personally SFAIK.  Everybody puts their foot in their mouth sometimes.

:peace:PS


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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: nutes [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #20610198 - 09/24/14 07:17 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Quote:

insanemike said:
I know mushrooms aren't people, thanks for stating the obvious. I want to discover how and why these internal processes for mycelium work and how genetics and NUTRITION play a role. Telling me that nutrition doesn't matter, is like telling me you can grow mushrooms with vermiculite. As long as it can digest it, it must be food. I refuse to accept that answer. I feel no need to respond to anymore statements made toward me on this thread. I know I'm no expert but it does not keep me from experimenting and drawing my own conclusions. Good day!




Just because you can ASK a question that the answer isn't known too doesn't mean you UNDERSTAND the questions to which the answer IS known to. It pisses me off in fields in which I actually AM an expert as well. :shrug:

Study more, 'cause without at least a rudimentary understanding of some of that (including the basic fact that you keep missing which is that fungi are neither plants NOR animals) you're falling into chasms of misunderstanding that are blinding you to the way things work with them, whether or not every last detail of that way of working has been deciphered. Big hint - "enzymes".  Understand that in fungi and you'll unlock a whole lot of digestive and adaptive mysteries.

Nobody here is out to get you personally SFAIK.  Everybody puts their foot in their mouth sometimes.

:peace:PS




I can live with that. Even if all these crazy hypothesis and experimentations get me nowhere, I can still look back and remember all the fun I had pretending to be a scientist. Isn't it suppose to be fun? If all you do is follow the "Sheppard" and never go off the beaten path, what fun is that? If I felt like there was ever a chance that there wouldn't be anything new to try, learn or experience, I would have given up on this hobby a long time ago. If there is a means to an end, I want nothing to do with it. "Life's a journey, not a destination"(Steven Tyler)

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Re: nutes [Re: insanemike]
    #20610654 - 09/24/14 09:37 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Science?  Fun?  Nah, science is just hard work, sometimes punctuated by rare moments of extreme "AHA!" that kind of make it all worthwhile.  Most many ideas are dead ends. Add in the downside that  in many fields only a few other people in the world either know what you're talking about or give a shit, and it's really something only the hardcore can love. But there's nothing else quite like it. :thumbup:

I do experiments with mushrooms.  Take a look at this ongoing thing for instance - the Potency Project - I'd love to have more people trying it out.  Easy if you do good cult, rewarding if you have the time.

:peace:PS


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Edited by PrimalSoup (09/24/14 10:32 AM)

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Re: nutes [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #20610672 - 09/24/14 09:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Science?  Fun?  Nah, science is just a fucking lot of hard work, sometimes punctuated by rare moments of extreme "AHA!" that kind of make it all worthwhile.  Most ideas are dead ends. Add in the downside that  in many fields only a few other people in the world either know what you're talking about or give a shit, and it's really something only the hardcore can love. :thumbup:

I do experiments with mushrooms.  Take a look at this ongoing thing for instance - the Potency Project - I'd love to have more people trying it out.  Easy if you do good cult, rewarding if you have the time.

:peace:PS




If science and mycology arentt fun your doing it wrong.

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Re: nutes [Re: pawnzy]
    #20610901 - 09/24/14 11:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:picard:

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Re: nutes [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #20610910 - 09/24/14 11:03 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Haha facepalm all you want.. If you dont find enjoyment in learning then whats the point?

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Re: nutes [Re: pawnzy]
    #20611092 - 09/24/14 11:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

There is no point, just different understandings.

But if by "mycology" you meant growing mushrooms I totally agree.  :lol:

:peace:PS


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Edited by PrimalSoup (09/24/14 03:05 PM)

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