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Invisibleagarmeister
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post-harvest sclerotia spawn
    #20582348 - 09/18/14 02:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Hi guys,

I recently harvested sclerotia stones from a big container. (it's ATL#7, incubated for 6 months and came out pretty weak for some reason)

I harvested inside a glovebox, keeping things sterile in order to not expose the colonised grains to too many contaminants.

After harvesting, I soaked the grains in water for about 24 hours.

Now the mycelium has recovered, and the grains are all colonised with healthy looking and smelling mycelium.

My question is: what can I do with all this? should I fruit it? can it produce more stones? is it only good for g2g to a fresh batch of grains?

Thanks

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InvisibleK1ngSp4de
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: agarmeister]
    #20582365 - 09/18/14 02:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

All of the above, I would spawn and try to fruit it so you can get more prints. Did you start from multi-spore or isolate? MS is unpredictable and if that's how you started probably accounts for the low yield.


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Invisibleagarmeister
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: K1ngSp4de]
    #20582386 - 09/18/14 03:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Do I have to spawn or can I fruit from the grains directly? I have about 2 quarts of colonised grains.

I isolated with agar, and the yield was actually spectacular in volume but the stones themselves are just weak. I took about 10g dried and they were equivalent to about 2g of dried cubes.

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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: agarmeister]
    #20582668 - 09/18/14 07:56 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I wouldnt even consider g2g'ing a jar like that, I doubt you can dunk the grains even
and then g2g. You want to spawn to a bulk sub, fruiting straight grains is terrible
and most likely wont even pin.

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Invisibleagarmeister
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: spacechildo]
    #20582706 - 09/18/14 08:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

alright, and what would you use for bulk sub? (apart from horse manure, I'm done with that shit)

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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: agarmeister]
    #20582725 - 09/18/14 08:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

CVG! always cvg, with manure added for the exotics that wants manure.

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: spacechildo]
    #20583609 - 09/18/14 12:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
fruiting straight grains is terrible and most likely wont even pin.



Where do you get Either half of that statement?

Sclerotia species do straight-grain better than most.


Quote:

Break-loose your colonized grains. If you are pouring the grains shortly after they are fully colonized it should be easy to do with your hands. If truffles are formed you will likely need to use a tire, as mentioned above. Pour the entire contents of the jars into the very-recently-cleaned tub, but not to higher than 1/2" short of the holes as you need space for the casing layer. If the grain you are pouring in has many sizely mature-aged truffles you can remove them with an alcohol sanitized or pressure sterilized spoon. Immediately carefully and evenly apply the thin casing.


Once the casing is done, immediately cover the tub with a piece of plastic cling wrap. Use packaging tape to secure this "lid" every several inches and pull it nice and taut all-around so it will not sag and drip water down onto the middle of the casing. Fill the holes with a tightly-folded wad of poly-fil, fresh out the package or a jar from the pressure cooker.


You're done! Put them in a room-temperature place not on the floor in a room with steady slow circulation of air such as with a fan. Provide direct fluorescent lighting (not so close as to heat the chamber at all) on a 24 hour timer for 12 hours a day during daytime. Over several days you will be able to watch the mycelia recover below the casing layer.


Growth over several more days you will see the mycelium begin to evenly pop up from under the casing layer. With a proper non-nutrient casing, they will not necessary colonize it fully before pin formation initiates. When the casing is colonized rather evenly but lightly as is shown in the above photos, it is beneficial to greatly lighten the stuffing of poly-fil in the gas exchange holes, but not so much that you can see thru it at all. Some more air will be allowed to pass through without the casing layer drying off.
If you see the casing lighten with dryness, remove poly-fil in one of the upper holes in order to spray in a fine mist of clean water just until it appears slightly damp again. If this happens repetitively or in less than a day, you have a tad too much gas exchange, and should add some to your poly-fil stuffing. With not too much or too little restraint on air exchange it's very possible and easy to set-and-forget your chamber!

It may be just a few days after casing colonization before you see the first pins. It may be three weeks. Be patient! As long as your casing is not dry, there is no mold, and there is some air exchange occurring, you have a very good chance of a mushroom fruiting.


Seeing the first pin is always exciting! Once pins start showing up it won't be long before others start to follow behind. Spore variety of Ps. Galindoi will usually not produce mushrooms much larger than in the photo above.


Though large for a Galindoi specimen this mushroom is not yet mature. To collect spores from these species it is necessary to let them grow well into full maturity.


A fully mature flush of mushrooms! This genetic isolate produces many tall fruits, but most genetics likely will not. Observe the flat- or wavy-topped caps.




Don't forget the other stones too! That's right, underneath the casing layer there are new truffles that form and grow much more quickly when in fruiting conditions than invitro. Any sclerotia left in the grain when laying it out in the tub will have grown larger as well.





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Invisiblemycomattie
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: Violet]
    #20583750 - 09/18/14 01:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

These were from just cased rye berries.

Psi. tampanensis





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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: Violet]
    #20583976 - 09/18/14 02:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

V: He's talking about post-sclerotia harvest and is looking for fruits (over ground) or am I completely mis reading him?

and what does cased grains have to do with my comment on straight grains? :confused:

Edited by spacechildo (09/18/14 02:44 PM)

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: spacechildo]
    #20584063 - 09/18/14 02:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

He's wanting to know what he can do with the grain altogether.

If agarmeister "Dunked" the grains  (By the way, 24hrs is way too long, try 10-25 minutes),
and the mycelium is recovered and healthy, there's a good chance that they can be set to form stones again.

But after being exposed to contamination,  I suggest keeping the air fresher than containment in a jar where mold is more likely.

Stones form much more quickly in substrates exposed to fruiting conditions.  And it's much easier to harvest clean high-quality potent stones from all-grain substrates.

Plus, the small fruits don't really need a lot of water.  That yield of tall Galindoi came from grain that produced a full yield of sclerotia, harvested in sterile laminar airflow, and yet was not rehydrated before dropping into the tub to fruit.

So cased grains, especially dunked ones, should have plenty of water to produce a strong yield of fruits AND stones without needing bulk substrate.

And if he put those contam-exposed grains to a bulk substrate, his results might not be so great.
Well, they might not anyway...
but my suggestion is to try fruiting the grains straight cased.


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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: Violet]
    #20584113 - 09/18/14 03:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Are you just twisting words to disagree here or am I missing something?

Quote:

Violet said:
and the mycelium is recovered and healthy, there's a good chance that they can be set to form stones again.




agreed.


Quote:

Violet said:
But after being exposed to contamination,  I suggest keeping the air fresher than containment in a jar where mold is more likely.





agree again, as in don't g2g them.


Quote:

Violet said:
So cased grains, especially dunked ones, should have plenty of water to produce a strong yield of fruits AND stones without needing bulk substrate.






cased and straight grains are 2 different things in my book, maybe that's where the confusion stems from?


Quote:

Violet said:
And if he put those contam-exposed grains to a bulk substrate, his results might not be so great.
Well, they might not anyway...
but my suggestion is to try fruiting the grains straight cased.




Here's one we differ on, I say mix evenly with bulk while you'd just case them :super:

but putting straight grains in a tub is not recommended by either of us as far as I can tell..

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: spacechildo]
    #20584153 - 09/18/14 03:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
cased and straight grains are 2 different things in my book, maybe that's where the confusion stems from?



Oh I see what you're saying.
Yeah that's where the "confusion" is from.

Most of the time, when people say "straight" grains, they're referring to a grain-only substrate, but a casing layer over the top of the grains is implied.
But not always, which is why I and others usually make a point of saying "straight cased grains"

But when you said spawn to bulk, don't do just grains, it seemed exactly like what's always said about fruiting or spawning grains, regardless of if casing is mentioned or not.

I still think, tho, that the bulk sub route isn't much if any better than straight casing grains, and in instances like these may not do too great as far as contams, unless going from harvest straight to substrate.

Quote:

spacechildo said:
Quote:

Violet said:
But after being exposed to contamination,  I suggest keeping the air fresher than containment in a jar where mold is more likely.



agree again, as in don't g2g them.



I mean don't even leave the dunked grains back in an enclosed jar for 2-4 months to make stones.
Might do okay, but you'll have the same results PLUS fruits by casing them to fruit.


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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: Violet]
    #20584242 - 09/18/14 03:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
I still think, tho, that the bulk sub route isn't much if any better than straight casing grains




I am very aware of this, and I think of it as you're a cat who likes to run,
while I'm a fish who likes to swim. different strokes etc etc :wink:

Quote:

Violet said:
and in instances like these may not do too great as far as contams, unless going from harvest straight to substrate.




Would you care to elaborate just a bit on this for me?
If the grains are fully colonized and the sub is simple CVG how would contams get a hold?
Or better put, how/on what would they be able to germinate?

Quote:

Violet said:
Most of the time, when people say "straight" grains, they're referring to a grain-only substrate, but a casing layer over the top of the grains is implied.
But not always, which is why I and others usually make a point of saying "straight cased grains"




I never imagined you'd think that I thought cased grains wouldn't pin,
that's why I thought you were trying to argue just for the cause of argument.
I've seen your PP's both pin and fruit, even made some comments on them I thought you had seen :tongue2:
but lets not go there again.

here's some dudes recent attempt at actual straight grains which were one of
the reasons I figured OP asked about actual straight grains:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20574276#20574276

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: spacechildo]
    #20584378 - 09/18/14 04:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
Quote:

Violet said:
and in instances like these may not do too great as far as contams, unless going from harvest straight to substrate.



Would you care to elaborate just a bit on this for me?
If the grains are fully colonized and the sub is simple CVG how would contams get a hold?
Or better put, how/on what would they be able to germinate?



I have long been convinced that the forums wrongfully regard coir as a magically contam-resistant substrate.
Sure it has better chances than many others due to extremely low nutritional value,
but when 'cooked', mixed with grain, and covered with mycelium, that difference slims more and more.

Absolutely lots of growers get by with it with some reliability.  But the conditions those growers are in are quite different than those of others.

Me, for example.
I have GREAT clean technique.  I have a near-100% sterile success rate.  Even handling spores sterile, it's rare that I see mold or bacteria on agar or in a jar.
Yet I had a surprising failure rate with spawning to bulk substrate... even when I made up the tray/tub in sterile laminar airflow!
Ravenous contams.

Every step of my process was as close to flawless as you can imagine.  Obviously my sterile successes were real, they've proven to be countless times, so failures were not due to "bad spawn".
I even went to far greater clean measures than many do when making tubs, even making them in sterile air conditions as I said above.

Yet my problems were only solved when I 'spawned' sterile grains to bagged pasteurized/sterilized substrate, never exposing the grain or the substrate to normal air.



Sure, some outspoken people on the forums point to their successes flashing coir (while almost certainly dismissing their failures, much less photographing and posting them)...


But I could count on a 40-70% failure rate when EITHER my grains or substrates were exposed to unclean conditions,
and I suspect FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR more people than make it to the boards have similar experiences, as well as than such incidents are posted about on the boards.  Why post with equal pride and equal consistency one's giant Trich-ridden failures?


Dunking grains would probably do fine for me.  But then rubbing those contam-exposed grains all over a heat-treated substrate with so few beneficial thermophilic microbes...
FAIL HARD.
And I'm not ashamed to say, because truly it's not my fault.



By the way, about fruiting straight grains...

There are ways to make it work.

Actually it depends immensely on which grain.  (There are far bigger differences in grains than people know or want to admit/accept)

Mycelium want BADLY for a low-nutrition spot from which to pin...


... but if you can hold moisture content and humidity, they'll do what they can.


It's far from preferable to giving them a low-nutrition fruiting site, be it a casing layer (top [fruiting site] casing) or bulk substrate (360° casing), so there's no reason not to do it and lots of reasons to do it,
but it's not impossible.


Exotics like truffle-procers (what this thread is about)  have such ridiculously low chance though because of how sensitive they are to the least bit of drying or even dropped humidity.

However I've seen these species fruit in a number of ways without a casing layer...


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Edited by Violet (09/18/14 04:18 PM)

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Invisibleagarmeister
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Re: post-harvest sclerotia spawn [Re: Violet]
    #20595936 - 09/21/14 06:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Wow, thanks for the informative answers!

So, what I'm going to do is prepare some casing (pasteurised peat + verm) and try to fruit the colonised grains.

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