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InvisibleLanaM
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Is there such a router that will....
    #2056836 - 10/30/03 12:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Hi y'all,
Is there such a router that will revolve IP addresses?

For example, most cable modems have the same static IP address. Is there a router available where you can make up your own IP table?

Or, has any ever setup a name server to resolve IP address before going on on the net?

I'm struggling with a dial-up connection at the momement and I'm consdiering a cable... but the whole static IP address I don't like.

Any thoughts or ideas would be dandy.

Lana


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OfflineCalbha
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Post deleted by Papaver [Re: Lana]
    #2056842 - 10/30/03 12:50 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)



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Offlinewindex
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: ]
    #2057597 - 10/30/03 05:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Arg, i had a pretty long decent reply but when i went to post it the server had failed.

Short version:

DHCP isnt all that bad but im not a fan of it, i cant stand not having a static address. The leases are usually long enough to let you go 24 hours without renewing before leasing it out to someone else. You could switch between two different network cards in 36 hour intervals.

Most routers are capable of using a DHCP interface and routing out it, as well as provide DHCP for the users connected to it.

If you want the maximum in flexibility and configureation id use a *nix box, they have plenty of 1 floppy router/firewall distrubutions available, id suggest giving one of those a try.

Hi y'all,
Is there such a router that will revolve IP addresses?

Well, you could run a DNS server, for most cases this isnt needed, just set a DNS server on the clients and have the clients ask your ISP's server for resolution. (or verizons 4.2.2.1-3 work well)


For example, most cable modems have the same static IP address.


most are using DHCP


Is there a router available where you can make up your own IP table?


you need adresses resolved from the outside? Most small networks dont /need/ this either, and running a DNS server (or even worse incorrectly configured server) can be a huge security issue, if you dont REALLY need it dont.

You mostly likly just want to forward packets to a different system. IE you want the webserver on its own machine behind the firewall, just have the firewall forward port 80 requests to the internal box, a lot more secure and a lot easier to configure considering most small configurations dont /need/ to be able to access the machine in that way.

Or, has any ever setup a name server to resolve IP address before going on on the net?

ive setup a caching DNS server, works kind of like that transparent proxy did, access was denied to the outside world, and didnt need to do this type of lookup.

I'm struggling with a dial-up connection at the momement and I'm consdiering a cable... but the whole static IP address I don't like.


eh, theres nothing wrong with a static IP, you should be going through a proxy anyway so whats the big deal? I couldnt deal with having a dynamic address.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: windex]
    #2059864 - 10/31/03 06:43 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> eh, theres nothing wrong with a static IP

All depends on what you are doing and how good the ISP logs are.  With a static IP, they know it is you.  With a dynamic IP, you can always fight the validity of logs in court, if needed.

I just recently bought a wireless access point for my DSL line.  I have it configured to be wide open, but leave it off most of the time.  If anything ever gets traced back to me, there is always the chance that somebody had hacked into my network through the access point.

It's all about burden of proof.  :smile:


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Offlinewindex
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: Seuss]
    #2060611 - 10/31/03 02:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It's all about burden of proof.

Not really (well it still is, its just not hard to do), as lowly techs we could figure out in less then 5 minutes who was on which modem for what ammount of time (including the phone number they called in from), and pretty much anything they did, most requests go through a proxy which logged 'almost' everything. With cable before your cable modem (a dsl modem is really a 'spliter' whats the "real" term for a cable modem?) can even grab an IP (or transfer data with a static) the mac has to be registered uniqly identifying your modem, its about as easy to figure out which mac was using which IP at a specific time and cross that mac with the account its registered to. Providing proof is nothing, its determing weather or not you should turn the info over thats the difficult choice.


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Invisibledjfrog
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: windex]
    #2063750 - 11/01/03 10:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

yeah everytime I see the mac address included in IP packets I'm a little shocked. I almost don't believe my understanding of how they work because it is such a removal of privacy. Basically, the MAC address is unique to every network card or modem and is transmitted with every packet across the internet IP, which, as far as I can tell, is everything.

Proxies may be in between you and your final target, and so the target may see the proxy's mac address instead, but then the proxy knows your mac address and everywhere you're going. I don't know if an ISP would hide your MAC address but I've seen no evidence they do.


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Offlinewindex
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: djfrog]
    #2063846 - 11/01/03 11:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Cant really filter a MAC or remove it, the MAC address is a vital part of how everything works.

Before data can be sent the dest and src MAC addresses is required to be in the packet, you can take a look at your latest resolved mac addressed by typing 'arp -a' IIRC.

When data is sent it is "encapsulated" with different sets of information, Before being sent it goes down this thing called the OSI model (its a definition of standards for the way data is transmitted and received) each device along the way takes the data packets back up the model and updates the packet data and resends it out. (simple explanation) All the requirements must be met before sending out data, otherwise nothing is going to happen, your packets are going to get thrown in a bit bucket.

Its added to the data packets at the 2nd level of the OSI model, data link.

Its kinda sad but its pretty niave to belive you can be truly anon on the Internet with your run of the mill, non-hacked, hardware.


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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: windex]
    #2064465 - 11/02/03 09:32 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

When a tcp/udp/etc. packet leaves your computer and goes onto an ethernet connection, the network card will encapsulate it into an ethernet packet. The ethernet packet contains your MAC.

Once this ethernet packet reaches the first router in it's path, that router will add the source MAC and IP to it's ARP table, strip away the ethernet headers and encapsulate your packet in it's own packet (which might be an ethernet package, but it doesn't have to be). So after reaching the first router, the packet will no longer contain your MAC.

In effect, your MAC never leaves your local area network. So typing 'arp -a' will show your computers ARP table, but it will only contain other adresses on your local area network (if you're on DSL or cable, it will most likely just show the MAC of your DSL/cable router).

Anyway, this doesn't help much on anonymity. Even if the remote part haven't got your MAC, they still have your IP. I can guarantee you that your ISP has no problem at all to find out who you are if anybody asks them about a specific IP at any specific time. Additionally, if you're getting DHCP directly from your ISP, they will have a log of what MAC was given which IP at any given time.

People who really want to be anonymous, do so by breaking into a machine, and then breaks into other machines from that one, etc. It's not impossible to trace, but it gets impractical after three or four hops, especially if each machine is in a different country.


--------------------
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Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

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OfflinePNutButta
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: muhurgle]
    #2069907 - 11/04/03 11:30 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You could always spoof an approved MAC of another user of the same cable network. When the IP is cross referenced, it shows up under their account at the time in question. This also leads to more deniability.


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Offlinewindex
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: PNutButta]
    #2070103 - 11/04/03 02:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

eh, not really.. if you change the MAC before calling them to enable it they have the changed MAC; if you change it afterwards you get no service.

*guess i should have read your post a bit more carfully, but grabbing someone elses mac address isnt going to work out very well, things dont work so well when there are two of the same MACs on the network, similer to two computers using the same IP.

Also the problem arises when they do finnally catch up with you, just why are you using someone elses mac address? The cable company can tell ya which sector the data is comming from, then which house its comming from, and since were living in this wonderfull age of technology they can pretty much do it instantly.

If they want to find you they will, if its not big enough a deal to track you through an extra* proxy its generally not big enough a deal to warrent them browsing the internet or sniff packets trying to find some small fry, with a few exceptions like sexual abuse or something to do with kids.

*you can go through a few proxys just to reach the internet, you just dont know about it, most of the time its just one (or a cluster acting as one) Most large ISPs have you go through at least one transparent caching proxy to reduce the load on having to grab stuff from the net, its a lot faster to xfer it to you from their local network.


Edited by windex (11/04/03 07:02 PM)


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OfflinePNutButta
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: windex]
    #2080499 - 11/07/03 11:46 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

things dont work so well when there are two of the same MACs on the network, similer to two computers using the same IP.



Generate a list of good MACs, wait for one to go off line, use that one.

Quote:

Also the problem arises when they do finnally catch up with you, just why are you using someone elses mac address?



Use the MAC once and return to your original MAC.

Quote:

The cable company can tell ya which sector the data is comming from, then which house its comming from, and since were living in this wonderfull age of technology they can pretty much do it instantly.



Can they? Any links to the technology, not that I don't believe you, I'd just like to see it. I'm sure with enough work, they could, but I don't know about instantly. Thats why they use MACs to track users.

Even if they can, pull some wire from your neighbor just for the purpose of this illegal activity.

Edit:
Further more, do they keep detailed, time-stamped records of the physical location of each packet sent? If not, then there is still a deniability factor. Sure that Gibson was hacked from the an IP DHCPed to your MAC, but someone else could have spoofed it. Its all about deniability.


Edited by PNutButta (11/07/03 11:52 AM)


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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Registered: 10/29/03
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: PNutButta]
    #2083980 - 11/08/03 02:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

A gateway/switch will keep track of what MAC's and IP's are associated with it's physical ports. The physical port is associated with you (there is a wire from that port to your house).


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: muhurgle]
    #2088556 - 11/10/03 05:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> A gateway/switch will keep track of what MAC's and IP's are associated with it's physical ports.

A switch or router will keep track of what MAC's and IP's are associated with it's physical ports. Forged MAC addresses typically won't route properly because of corrupted ARP tables.

Any ethernet drivers that I have written look at the MAC address of the packet and chuck it doesn't match an active interface. This means that you can forge outgoing packets, but you will ignore any responses that you get back.

Because most traffic these days is TCP rather than UDP, you have to send a lot of packets back and forth to establish a virtual connection. If you are forging MAC addresses, a TCP connection cannot be created.


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OfflinePNutButta
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: Seuss]
    #2089513 - 11/10/03 03:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

A gateway/switch will keep track of what MAC's and IP's are associated with it's physical ports. The physical port is associated with you (there is a wire from that port to your house).



Say I live in an apartment. I have a cable line running from my apartment to the basement where it meets up with the cable from all the other apartments. Is this where the gateway will be located? I thought those where just dumb switches, no tracking or recording. I also thought consumer cable connections would broadcast to the whole branch (usually 10 lines) and the modems would sort it out. Any links to more information about how this really works?

Quote:

A switch or router will keep track of what MAC's and IP's are associated with it's physical ports. Forged MAC addresses typically won't route properly because of corrupted ARP tables.



Once again, is this the connection where all the lines are split to go to individual apartments? If it is before that (closer to the ISP) then couldn't spoofing a MAC of a neighbor on the same branch be effective?

Quote:

Any ethernet drivers that I have written look at the MAC address of the packet and chuck it doesn't match an active interface. This means that you can forge outgoing packets, but you will ignore any responses that you get back.



A Linksys router allows you to change its MAC, and will both transmit and accept incoming TCP packets to the cloned identifyer. I believe Linux also allows you to manually force the MAC of any network interface. Or am I completly mistaken on what you are tring to comunicate?

P Nut Butta


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Offlinewindex
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: PNutButta]
    #2089872 - 11/10/03 05:50 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Say I live in an apartment. I have a cable line running from my apartment to the basement where it meets up with the cable from all the other apartments. Is this where the gateway will be located? I thought those where just dumb switches, no tracking or recording. I also thought consumer cable connections would broadcast to the whole branch (usually 10 lines) and the modems would sort it out. Any links to more information about how this really works?

The gateway is a device that connects a private network to a public network, the gateway your thinking of, is really more of a point of demarcation, where the providers equpment and local equipment meets.

Quote:


Cable Modem Termination System
The CMTS provides, at the cable-provider's head-end, many of the same functions provided by the DSLAM in a DSL system. The CMTS takes the traffic coming in from a group of customers on a single channel and routes it to an Internet Service Provider (ISP) for connection to the Internet. At the head-end, the cable providers will have, or lease space for a third-party ISP to have, servers for accounting and logging, dynamic host configuration protocol (DHCP) for assigning and administering the IP addresses of all the cable system's users, and control servers for a protocol called Data Over Cable Service Interface Specifications (DOCSIS), the major standard used by U.S. cable systems in providing Internet access to users.

The downstream information flows to all connected users, just like an Ethernet network -- it's up to the individual network connection to decide whether a particular block of data is intended for it, or not. On the upstream side, information is sent from the user to the CMTS -- other users don't see that data at all. The narrower upstream bandwidth is divided into slices of time, measured in milliseconds, in which users can transmit one "burst" at a time to the Internet. The division by time works well for the very short commands, queries and addresses that form the bulk of most users' traffic back to the Internet.





By the looks of things, the data is sent to each user, but the segmenting alone is enough to cause problems. Your neighbor may not be connecting to the same equipment you are.

A Linksys router allows you to change its MAC,
And this should never have been allowed, MAC addresses are assigned as they are for a reason. Most people dont think of IP challenges, but the MAC from a cisco router will allways out rank the address on a network card. If I remember right SUN network adapters even out rank ciscos.

from the DSL reports faq
Quote:

Q: If I copy a Valid MAC address in my Router could I get free service? (#3455)
A: No, and here's why:

As far as I know, there are three major ways that cable companies allow cable modems to access their network:

1.) Filters/Traps:
Some cable companies don't care about the MAC address of your cable modem. They prevent your modem from talking back to them by installing a filter and/or trap on your cable line at the tap.

When you get your service activated, they come out and remove whatever they need to.

This is not used often because it's very easy for people to steal cable modem service.

2.) HFC (Cable Modem) MAC Authentication:
In this case, the cable company would authorize your cable modem by it's MAC. Every DOCSIS cable modem has one, and if you look at yours, it should have a sticker with an "HFC MAC". When your modem boots up, it attempts to talk to your cable provider, and the provider will either grant or deny it access based on it's MAC address.

3.) HFC (Cable Modem) AND NIC (Network Card) MAC Authentication:
Some cable companies, for some reason, also authenticate the network card in your computer. First it will authenticate the Cable Modem, and then when your computer attempts to get online, they'll check and make sure that you're still using the same computer/network card/etc that you've always used. If you've changed your network card or installed a router, they will block your access.

I'm not sure exactly why they do this, but I'm guessing that this is partially how they prevent you from sharing your cable modem on a network.

This is also why most routers have a "MAC Address Clone" feature. If you tell your router to clone your network card's MAC Address, it makes your cable provider think that you're still using the same computer/network card to access their services, and therefore they allow your router on the network.

Now, the reason why it wouldn't get you free cable: When you clone an address in your router, you're cloning a NETWORK CARD, not a CABLE MODEM.

The only way you could get free cable modem service this way is by somehow changing the MAC address of the CABLE MODEM to one that has been provisioned (authorized) already. DOCSIS cable modems cannot be modified in this way.

Now that I think about it, if any cable companies out there authenticated by Network Card MAC Address only, and not cable modem, this might work, but I doubt there are any providers out there that dumb.




So now i see why they let you change em and it makes sense but i still dont like that idea because MACs are assigned for a reason. But the most convincing argument is basicly, you cant change the mac of your cable modem, so i guess that would be end of story, you could change the mac of your router, but thats not gonna do any good the modems mac cannot be changed. So any data comming from your provision is always gonna be from that router or your not going to be xmiting data.

The question asked about free service, but the same applies to changing the mac in general so i posted it.


Edited by windex (11/10/03 06:15 PM)


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OfflinePNutButta
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Re: Is there such a router that will.... [Re: windex]
    #2092764 - 11/11/03 03:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I see now, I was skipping the modem in my attempt to connect as a different user. I imagine they associate you NICs MAC with your modems MAC, as an extra security procedure. Not that it would be impossible to discover the MAC of someone else's modem, although nearly impossible, unless you build your own, to clone that to a new modem...

I wonder if anyone sells cable modems that allow you to change their MAC...


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