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OfflineSquattingMarmot
Inquiring Mind
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 418
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what?
    #2056265 - 10/30/03 05:24 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe one of our resident munitions experts can figure this one out. I've always been lead to believe that the M1A1 Abrams was the strongest and most heavily armoured tank ever made.

ArmyTimes.com

Quote:



?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what?
Mystery behind Aug. 28 incident puzzles Army officials

By John Roos

Shortly before dawn on Aug. 28, an M1A1 Abrams tank on routine patrol in Baghdad ?was hit by something? that crippled the 69-ton behemoth.
Army officials still are puzzling over what that ?something? was.

According to an unclassified Army report, the mystery projectile punched through the vehicle?s skirt and drilled a pencil-sized hole through the hull. The hole was so small that ?my little finger will not go into it,? the report?s author noted.

The ?something? continued into the crew compartment, where it passed through the gunner?s seatback, grazed the kidney area of the gunner?s flak jacket and finally came to rest after boring a hole 1? to 2 inches deep in the hull on the far side of the tank.

As it passed through the interior, it hit enough critical components to knock the tank out of action. That made the tank one of only two Abrams disabled by enemy fire during the Iraq war and one of only a handful of ?mobility kills? since they first rumbled onto the scene 20 years ago. The other Abrams knocked out this year in Iraq was hit by an RPG-7, a rocket-propelled grenade.

Experts believe whatever it is that knocked out the tank in August was not an RPG-7 but most likely something new ? and that worries tank drivers.

Mystery and anxiety

Terry Hughes is a technical representative from Rock Island Arsenal, Ill., who examined the tank in Baghdad and wrote the report.

In the sort of excited language seldom included in official Army documents, he said, ?The unit is very anxious to have this ?SOMETHING? identified. It seems clear that a penetrator of a yellow molten metal is what caused the damage, but what weapon fires such a round and precisely what sort of round is it? The bad guys are using something unknown and the guys facing it want very much to know what it is and how they can defend themselves.?

Nevertheless, the Abrams continues its record of providing extraordinary crew protection. The four-man crew suffered only minor injuries in the attack. The tank commander received ?minor shrapnel wounds to the legs and arms and the gunner got some in his arm? as a result of the attack, according to the report.

Whatever penetrated the tank created enough heat inside the hull to activate the vehicle?s Halon firefighting gear, which probably prevented more serious injuries to the crew.

The soldiers of 2nd Battalion, 70th Armor Regiment, 1st Armor Division who were targets of the attack weren?t the only ones wondering what damaged their 69-ton tank.

Hughes also was puzzled. ?Can someone tell us?? he wrote. ?If not, can we get an expert on foreign munitions over here to examine this vehicle before repairs are begun? Please respond quickly.?

His report went to the office of the combat systems program manager at the U.S. Army Tank-automotive and Armaments Command in Warren, Mich. A command spokesman said he could provide no information about the incident.

?The information is sensitive,? he said. ?It looks like [members of the program manager?s office] are not going to release any information right now.?

While it?s impossible to determine what caused the damage without actually examining the tank, some conclusions can be drawn from photos that accompanied the incident report. Those photos show a pencil-size penetration hole through the tank body, but very little sign of the distinctive damage ? called spalling ? that typically occurs on the inside surface after a hollow- or shaped-charge warhead from an anti-tank weapon burns its way through armor.

Spalling results when an armor penetrator pushes a stream of molten metal ahead of it as it bores through an armored vehicle?s protective skin.

?It?s a real strange impact,? said a source who has worked both as a tank designer and as an anti-tank weapons engineer. ?This is a new one. ? It almost definitely is a hollow-charge warhead of some sort, but probably not an RPG-7? anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade.

The well-known RPG-7 has been the scourge of lightly armored vehicles since its introduction more than 40 years ago. Its hollow-charge warhead easily could punch through an M1?s skirt and the relatively thin armor of its armpit joint, the area above the tracks and beneath the deck on which the turret sits, just where the mystery round hit the tank.

An RPG-7 can penetrate about 12 inches of steel ? a thickness far greater than the armor that was penetrated on the tank in Baghdad. But the limited spalling evident in the photos accompanying the incident report all but rules out the RPG-7 as the culprit, experts say.

Limited spalling is a telltale characteristic of Western-manufactured weapons designed to defeat armor with a cohesive jet stream of molten metal. In contrast, RPG-7s typically produce a fragmented jet spray.

The incident is so sensitive that most experts in the field would talk only on the condition that they not be identified.

One armor expert at Fort Knox, Ky., suggested the tank may have been hit by an updated RPG. About 15 years ago, Russian scientists created tandem-warhead anti-tank-grenades designed to defeat reactive armor. The new round, a PG-7VR, can be fired from an RPG-7V launcher and might have left the unusual signature on the tank.

In addition, the Russians have developed an improved weapon, the RPG-22. These and perhaps even newer variants have been used against American forces in Afghanistan. It is believed U.S. troops seized some that have been returned to the United States for testing, but scant details about their effects and ?fingerprints? are available.

Still another possibility is a retrofitted warhead for the RPG system being developed by a Swiss manufacturer.

At this time, it appears most likely that an RPG-22 or some other improved variant of the Russian-designed weapon damaged the M1 tank, sources concluded. The damage certainly was caused by some sort of shaped-charge or hollow-charge warhead, and the cohesive nature of the destructive jet suggests a more effective weapon than a fragmented-jet RPG-7.

A spokesman for General Dynamics Land Systems, which manufactures the Abrams, said company engineers agree some type of RPG probably caused the damage. After checking with them, the spokesman delivered the manufacturer?s verdict: The tank was hit by ?a ?golden? RPG? ? an extremely lucky shot.

In the end, a civilian weapons expert said, ?I hope it was a lucky shot and we are not part of someone?s test program. Being a live target is no fun.?

John Roos is editor of Armed Forces Journal, which is owned by Army Times Publishing Co.






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"In the United States anybody can be president. Thats the problem."

"The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day."

- George Carlin


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #2056538 - 10/30/03 09:58 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

aliens are fighting for allah.

that can't bode well for us...


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/13/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #2057093 - 10/30/03 02:41 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps the Palestinians had a little plasma explosive workshop and showed them how they were ingenious at dumbfounding the IDF when they were so successful hitting the Merkava (sp?)


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2057346 - 10/30/03 03:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

All the merkava's were simply blown up with very large bombs, though. This is something new. Copper plasma made by a shaped charge can punch holes like that, but you would expect it to splash and fry the insides of the tank. Weird.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Registered: 02/13/99
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: wingnutx]
    #2057442 - 10/30/03 04:15 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Nevermind. Why correct misinformation?


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Edited by PsiloKitten (10/30/03 04:28 PM)


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2057520 - 10/30/03 04:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

You can do that sort of thing on the cheap, like the Bader-Meinhoff Gang figured out how to do with a sheet of copper and a bunch of semtex, but it's not hard to figure out what happened afterward.

Quote:

Nevermind. Why correct misinformation?




I don't really follow you there.


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: wingnutx]
    #2057610 - 10/30/03 05:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wingnutx said:
You can do that sort of thing on the cheap, like the Bader-Meinhoff Gang figured out how to do with a sheet of copper and a bunch of semtex, but it's not hard to figure out what happened afterward.





Im not sure what type of munition you refering to in your first post about it but the type made using a funnel shaped piece of copper and explosives is quite complex. The intirety of its plans are still classified by the american govt and they have not began any thought for its production.

I have seen thought assassinations where an explosive such as semtex was used with a copper plate. Where a trip wire or laser were used to trigger a sachel that once exploded would send the sheet of copper hurling at its target as it formed a unique but spread out shape. This has been used to my knowledge to destroy armored cars both like an abrams.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Offlinelysergic
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Registered: 06/09/03
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: d33p]
    #2057806 - 10/30/03 06:05 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

If it lodged into the tank shell, why don't they just dig it out and see what it is?


Is this political, activist, or law related?


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Offlined33p
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: lysergic]
    #2058070 - 10/30/03 07:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

For a metal to pierce armor that thick it would be going at great speeds. When it slows down due to friction in the tank armor is would become super heated even more so than when it began. It would be very hard to dig it out and then tell what it started out as.

And its about the american military and its operations to a foreign country. I would consider it political as it can affect that.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: d33p]
    #2058093 - 10/30/03 07:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, just curious.  It seems that it's not really "political" tho, but thats just my thoughts. Political would relate to the policies that put the troops there, nto the weapons used against them.  Not that I'm being a dick about it or anything, just my thoughts :smile:

now, as for the weapon. If they have any trace of it, in any condition, they can assay it and determine what it is.  My guess is a  shaped charge.  In my past, I have been very interested in explosives, and am to this date.  If you take a piece of metal that is convex, place explosives "behind" the curve, and force the charge towards the center, the piece of convex metal wil change to concave, become white-hot, and taer through just about anything. Possibly that ? Possibly just a lucky bullet shot in some weak armor?


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Offlined33p
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: lysergic]
    #2058384 - 10/30/03 09:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Well the strange thing is that the abrams is made to have no "weak spots". I doubt that some bumpkin jihadi would be able to contruct the funnel bomb. Ang more so fire it acurrately considering it did hit the part with the least armor. It all just seems strange to me.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: d33p]
    #2058423 - 10/30/03 09:21 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I doubt that some bumpkin jihadi would be able to contruct the funnel bomb.

I saw a show about demolition charges once on TLC. A guy demonstrated a "copper cone" shaped charge explosive that he made in about 1 minute right in front of the camera.

All he did was take a copper cone, about 3" high and open end diameter about 1", stick some c4 to the back of it, and put a detonator in the c4. The he put it on top of a 1" thick sheet of steel and fired it off. It left a 1" diameter hole right through the steel. That with a 1-minute job. If these guys are supposedly capable of creating WMD's and such, I don't think they'd have too hard of a time with shaped charges.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlined33p
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: trendal]
    #2058476 - 10/30/03 09:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

If you take any piece of hard metal and c4 i would hope it left a hole in the steel. I woudl think that would be obvious. a 1x1 inch cube of thermite can burn through an entire car engine and a few inches into the pavement. Ive made that in my house. The hardest part in making any explosive is the delivery. The abrams is not soem 1 inch piece of steel. To produce a system to accurately fire the cone would very hard. And when i said average bumpkin i ment average how is the entire iraqi military as you said average.

Im not saying its not possible, im just saying it seems unlikely and very strange.

Also the hole being so small seems strange to me. In the reports ive seen when the govt tested the metal plates would have copper residue where it passed through. So to leave a hole that narrow seems odd that it could pass through an entire side and more. Think about a rod of copper less than the width of your pinky. You could bend this somewhat easily.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: d33p]
    #2058656 - 10/30/03 10:27 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I also doubt it was just some home-made device. I'm willing to bet it's either a newer Russian made weapon (like the article suggests) or possibly even something US designed that has leaked out. I'm leaning towards Russia as the source, though.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: trendal]
    #2058735 - 10/30/03 10:51 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

What about some sort of rail gun? (for those who don't know, think maglev train turned into a gun)


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Offlinemonoamine
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Registered: 09/07/02
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: d33p]
    #2058979 - 10/30/03 11:59 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I doubt that some bumpkin jihadi would be able to contruct the funnel bomb.




Maybe the average Jihadi (sand nigger) isn't so unadvanced after all.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Edited by monoamine (10/31/03 12:01 AM)


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/13/99
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: monoamine]
    #2059107 - 10/31/03 12:32 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Oh goodness.

Monoamine, they are rubbing off on you.

Resist!  Resist the dark side!
:nut: 


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2060707 - 10/31/03 03:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It may very well have been one of these:

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/milan/index.html#milan3

or possibly a Russian copy of the US 'Copperhead'.


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: monoamine]
    #2062881 - 11/01/03 04:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

monoamine said:
Quote:

I doubt that some bumpkin jihadi would be able to contruct the funnel bomb.




Maybe the average Jihadi (sand nigger) isn't so unadvanced after all.




Wow thanks for being a fucking asshole.

I wasent being racist. Did i ever say arab or sand nigger? No whatever color or creed he be doesnt matter, look at johnny walker. I was just saying the average person who enters iraqi to fight a holy war isnt a rocket scientist and probably wouldnt have the knowledge required to build such a complicated weapons system.

And whoever posted the link to the site with that french/german weapon, it doesnt seem by looking at the size of the warhead that that thing could cause a hole smaller than a pinky.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
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Re: ?Something? felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what? [Re: d33p]
    #2063698 - 11/01/03 10:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Sand nigger wasn't directed towards you,it was for Lysergic's racist ass.

Good studies have been done on the problem and they've actually found that a lot of suicide bombers are actually well educated and many Jihadis have actually recieved formal western educations.

I was just trying to counter the fact that six pack Joe sees these people as backward,sub-human beasts when that isn't always the case.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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