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OfflineJackolantern
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Neurochem Questions about shrooms
    #2054177 - 10/29/03 06:27 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, from what I've gathered off of psylocybe faqs and websites psilocybin and psilocin are actually serotonergic inhibitors, but they end up stimulating DA pathways anyway. Does anybody want to take the time to explain to me how this is possible (why wouldn't just the 5-ht neurotransmitter suffice to produce the "high")?


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: Jackolantern]
    #2056464 - 10/30/03 09:23 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It probably just means that psilocybin and psilocin are competing for the same receptor site as 5-htp. So psilocybin and psilocin probably have a greater affinity for that site and stimulate that receptor thus blocking out the 5-htp


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: EvilGir]
    #2056705 - 10/30/03 11:39 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

5-htp is also common in most psilocybian species of mushrooms. As is trptophan and tryptamine and Urea and opterh related alkaloids



mj


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OfflineNoviseer
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2056922 - 10/30/03 01:27 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I usually feel a bit down after doing mushrooms, but then I take a nap, and when I wake up, I'm euphoric for about 3 days.  Always happens, even happened after my "bad-ish" trip (though it wasn't really bad).  Does this happen because your brain has 6 hours worth of serotonin surplus that it didn't use while the psilocybin took over?  Also, the temporary depression after the comedown, can this be attributed to a "switchover" phase from shroomy neurotransmitters to the ol' serotonin?  I always get thoughts of "well, back to the mundane:crazy:" etc. 


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: Jackolantern]
    #2059152 - 10/31/03 12:44 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The serotonin idea doesn't even begin to explain the effects of shrooms. We're still in the dark ages regarding why they have the effect they do - no-one has the faintest clue.


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: Xlea321]
    #2062404 - 11/01/03 10:02 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Well one idea i have is that psilocybin and psilocin could contain some sort of chemicle computer program that exists on a level we haven't even thought about yet. The information may even be stored in the way that each proton in the molecules spins. But i doubt there is gona be any refrences online to help support my idea. I dont even think we have the technology to prove it either.


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Offlinedave52
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: EvilGir]
    #2062834 - 11/01/03 04:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i dunno about that...i think in your origional question you were confused about why somthing called an inhibitor causes stimulation. serotonin is released into the axon, the gap between 2 neurons. to 'do things' your brain releases chemicals into this little space that affects the next neuron, and the way electricity sparks across that little gap. normally these chemicals are reabsorbed after a peroid of time; thats how your brain regulates itself. LSD is an acid, meaning its water soluable (i guess psilocybin does the same thing after you digest it), and can go through the barrier of blood into your brain (your brain has its own supply of blood) and be carried by cappilaries to your neurons, and makes it so you cant reabsorb the chemicals that are normally secreted into the axon and they just keep building up, causing your brain the behave abnormally. maybe psilocybin binds more easily to the receptors than serotonin does or somehow reduces the impedance of neural pathways, but all we know are the effects. so basically all inhibitor means is your brain cant clean out the residual chemicals in itself as easily as normal. and i think the 5-ht transmitter does somthing different than the psilocybin and serotonin. not sure but i think psilocybin creates more residual serotonin, which stimulates the release for more 5-ht, which causes more neural activity...whew..


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OfflineNoviseer
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: EvilGir]
    #2062875 - 11/01/03 04:33 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

jezu said:
Well one idea i have is that psilocybin and psilocin could contain some sort of chemicle computer program that exists on a level we haven't even thought about yet. The information may even be stored in the way that each proton in the molecules spins. But i doubt there is gona be any refrences online to help support my idea. I dont even think we have the technology to prove it either. 


\

whoa :grin:


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: dave52]
    #2062946 - 11/01/03 05:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

. serotonin is released into the axon, the gap between 2 neurons.



For clarification. The axon is not the space between two neurons were synaptic neurotransmitter transmission acures. That is the synapse. The axon protrudes from the cell body. Once a message is picked up on a cell dendrite it is transmitted through the cell body and reaches the axon hillcock. If the signal is strong enough the hillcock fires a message down the axon(by releasing molecules that change the negative resting potential to positive). The axon is connected to a button that contains neurotransmitters. This is were the neuron fires neurotransmitters across the synapse(the space between two neurons) to the next neurons post synaptic receptors.Were they elicit an inhibitory or exitory response.


Quote:

to 'do things' your brain releases chemicals into this little space that affects the next neuron,



This is the synapse.


As Alex said though we can find some recpetors that psychedelics bind to we are still in the dark as to how they effect us on the neurochemical level. We are still in the primitive ages as far as understanding brain neurochemistry in general.
The most cutting edge study seen in awhile as far as psychedelic neuropharmacology is Dr. David Nichols study of LSD effects on gene expression.

http://www.heffter.org/ Check out this site for the study abstract.


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: chinacat72]
    #2064027 - 11/02/03 01:22 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Basically what China said. Serotonergic psychedelics bind to post synaptic 5-HT as partial agonists (they don't fully activate the receptor). They don't bind universally to every 5-HT receptor though,only certain ones. Which ones they bind to exactly is still up for debate. Serotonin receptors also have the unique property of being excitory or inhibitory, depending on the receptor sub type (most neurotransmitters are just excite or inhibit the brain).

It's also useless to single certain neurotransmitters and peptides out when talking about the brain. Serotonin may indirectly be responsible for the release of dopamine and may also have some "feedback" with glutamate.

Beyond that we're heading into uncharted waters. Since it's hard as hell to get a C1 permit to handle psychedelics,there is very little research being done in the U.S.

David Nichols,Rick Strassman,and possibly Dennis McKenna are the only scientists I can think of that have C1 permits,and with a few exceptions,most psychedelic work is done on animals.


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: monoamine]
    #2067180 - 11/03/03 04:57 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"maybe psilocybin binds more easily to the receptors than serotonin does"

So psilocybin and psilocin probably have a greater affinity for that site.

Same thing


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: EvilGir]
    #2067243 - 11/03/03 06:00 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

That's correct (I think). They have a greater affinity,so they'll block serotonin,so in neurological jargon they're "competive partial agonists of certain 5-HT receptors".

I'm not exactly sure about that though. If a chemical has a greater binding affinity than the natural ligand,it's not necessarily competitive with that neurotransmitter.But in this case,there are so few serotonin cells,so I think they're competitive.

Again,we're starting to travel into uncharted territory here.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: monoamine]
    #2067319 - 11/03/03 07:53 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Arn't there about 20 different types of serotonin receptor tho? Prozac and all the anti-depressants affect serotonin receptors without the effects of shrooms.

Certainly need a lot more research before we understand what's happening. How does a molecule found in a fungi create hope and happiness in human beings?


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: Xlea321]
    #2067363 - 11/03/03 08:38 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"Arn't there about 20 different types of serotonin receptor tho? Prozac and all the anti-depressants affect serotonin receptors without the effects of shrooms"

Yeah but not in the same way, i think Prozac and all the anti-depressants affect serotonin actualy act on the way serotonin is removed from the receptor site. One way this can be done is with MAO which breaks down the serotonin as it leavs the receptor site (I think). So this is why MAOI where given to help with depression.

Now modern anti-depressants work by inhibiting the re-uptake of serotonin, so this just means that it stops the serotonin from actually being removed from the receptor site causeing a build up of serotonin in the brain and longer activity of the receptor.

As far as i know anti-depressants do not directly effect the receptor sites, they just alter the way serotonin is removed.


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Edited by jezu (11/03/03 08:45 AM)


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Neurochem Questions about shrooms [Re: Xlea321]
    #2068883 - 11/03/03 10:52 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

SSRI's block the reuptake of serotonin. In effect they make the serotonin in your brain that's allready there more available to post synaptic cells. Most serotonergic psychedelics are like serotonin copies kind of, and they bind to the same sites as serotonin, but they don't bind to all the sites that serotonin does and the sites they do bind at they affect differently.

Quote:

Certainly need a lot more research before we understand what's happening. How does a molecule found in a fungi create hope and happiness in human beings?





These are scientific,reductionistic theories. I don't think science will ever be able to provide that answer exactly.


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Amazon Shop for: 5-HTP, Terrence McKenna

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