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OfflineSeraph
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Mating spores
    #2053800 - 10/29/03 03:56 PM (14 years, 23 days ago)

sorry if this isnt advanced but i didnt think it would get a good response in Cultivation.

after reading a post on cloning and researching to give my reply, i began to ponder something that really has nothing to do with cloning but the mating of spores.

(EDIT: i am refering to mushrooms of the same species and strain)
is it possible for a spore from mushroom A and a spore from mushroom B to be isolated and bred or do spores only mate with spores from the same mushroom.

also would one be able to clone mushroom A and mushroom B for desired characteristics and then mate one of their spores together in hopes of getting mushrooms that contain those characteristics.
or does the difference in genetic material too different to ensure any reliable results?


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~nicole


Edited by Seraph (10/29/03 03:58 PM)


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InvisibleJohn
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Re: Mating spores [Re: Seraph]
    #2053815 - 10/29/03 04:03 PM (14 years, 23 days ago)

This is somewhat relavent to your question.

http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/23401

I was looking for info on hybrids the other day and this is what I got.

Edit: I replyed before you added that you were talking about the same species :crazy: it just took a few mins to find the link


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Edited by jtryptamine (10/29/03 04:18 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Mating spores [Re: Seraph]
    #2053977 - 10/29/03 05:03 PM (14 years, 23 days ago)

You want to isolate individual monokaryons from the STRAIN. Then you want to test each monokaryon against the other monokaryons. You will find that certain matings will possess what you are looking for, Clone these in duplicates and use them until they start to change into something different.
A Strain itself is a combination of fixed traits that are expressed by all viable spore matches.
A single monokaryon may be responsible for certain traits being expressed when combined with a single monokaryon of the same strain or several different ones.

Hypothetical.
You isolate ten monokaryons of a strain. You lable them very well and try and mate each one against the other.
a(ab,ac,ad,ae,af,ag,ah,ai,aj)
b(bc,bd,be,bf,bg,bh,bi,bj)
c(cd,ce,cf,cg,ch,ci,cj)
d(de,df,dg,dh,di,dj)
e(ef,eg,eh,ei,ej)
f(fg,fh,fi,fj)
g(gh,gi,gj)
h(hi,hj)
i(ij)
j

You may find that monokaryon d is responsible for the desired trait and only when it mates with monokaryons f, i, or j. Clone these matches and test for the most vigorous one in your specific environmnetal parameters.

Every time you go back to multipspore it will be a crap shoot to find the matches df,di,or dj. So having the clones will make your life easier. You can also keep the monokaryons for breeding with other strains. Monokaryon d might express the trait into another strain if mated with the right monokaryon or monokaryons from the other strain.




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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Mating spores [Re: ]
    #2054183 - 10/29/03 06:31 PM (14 years, 23 days ago)

It really depends on how genetically different the two mushrooms are. Even with the same strain, two monokaryotes really only have about a 1 in 4 chance of mating.

Different strains -- maybe. Different species have only been succesfully mated by protoplast fusion (but this requires polyethylene glycol and a lab, etc.)

--
Micro


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OfflineSeraph
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Re: Mating spores [Re: micro]
    #2054495 - 10/29/03 08:22 PM (14 years, 23 days ago)

wow thanks for the responses everyone. mushrooms are just so interesting.

It seems like an attempt at this would be a very time consuming and meticulous process. hopefully ill have some more time on my hands to play around with this.

thanks again for the info.


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(\(\
( -.-)
o_(")(")

~nicole


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Anonymous

Re: Mating spores [Re: micro]
    #2057987 - 10/30/03 06:54 PM (14 years, 22 days ago)

As far as mating compatability yes a single spore can only mate succesfully(fertile Dikaryon) with 1 in 4 spores it comes in contact with from the same strain.

What I am talking about is finding a monokaryon that passes on certain traits when bred with another monokaryon. Understand that each monokaryon possesses invidual traits, or better yet traits that only it can pass on to the Dikaryon when mated with only certain other monokaryons.

A1B1 mates with A2B2 to form a fertile dikaryon. However There is great diversity between all the A1B1 monokaryons and equal diversity between all the A2B2 dikaryons. Each monokaryon possesses different traits(alleles).

Example. A1aB1a mates with A2cB2c yielding a different phenotype then A1aB1a mating with A2dB2d. Knowing what the A1aB1a possesses different from other A1B1 monokaryons and which A2B2 monokaryons it must mate with to have the trait expressed is IMPORTANT.

Even within the same strain there is Great diversity. Mating between different strains that don't share a common ancestor will be 100 %, but many lethal alleles will result in a limited succes rate. But mating any hybrid spores(that were succesful) with themselves will lead back to the 1 in 4 succesful matings and you will have a new strain.

A strain is just homozygous for alot of traits that make it appear alike each time. But there is variability there between monokaryons with the same mating type. A1a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,etc..B1a,b,c,d,etc... A1aB1a is different from A1bB1b. They will pass different traits onto the dikaryon. These traits can be selected for and breed into new strains, but you have to find the responsible monokaryon FIRST, and the co-responsible monokaryons that it is able to mate with and have the phenotype express the traits.

Yes protoplast fusion is the only succesful way so far to mate different species.


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OfflineSeraph
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Re: Mating spores [Re: ]
    #2062651 - 11/01/03 02:28 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

maybe a little clarification could help... i wasnt so much talking about different strain, just differnt mushrooms from the same cake or casing for instance.

theres too much complexity involved in the mating of diffrent strains for me to even begin to ponder something like that. :wink:


--------------------
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( -.-)
o_(")(")

~nicole


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Mating spores [Re: Seraph]
    #2062694 - 11/01/03 02:55 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

Yes, they can -- there's a 1/4 chance that one spore will be able to mate with another (regardless of which mushroom.) If you want to isolate single spores the best way to do it is dilute a portion of spores a lot (do 10-fold titrations on seperate plates, or, in other words, dilute with water 10 times, 100x, 1000x, etc., until you get no further result, and use the plates with the highest dilution -- these are possibly single-spore isolates.) You shouldn't use peroxide for this, and the plates that are diluted a lot might take weeks to grow. After this, you can look under a microscope (stained with fungalase if you have access to a flourescence microscope) and look for clamp connections or the long way.... test for fruiting ability.

--
Micro


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(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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Offlinewhitesox
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Re: Mating spores [Re: micro]
    #2063043 - 11/01/03 05:58 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

You can have clamp connections and still not be able to fruit.


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Mating spores [Re: whitesox]
    #2063164 - 11/01/03 06:46 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

What's your point? We're checking to see if it's monokaryotic or dikaryotic. Dikaryotes will almost always be able to fruit.

--
Micro


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Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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Anonymous

Re: Mating spores [Re: Seraph]
    #2063172 - 11/01/03 06:48 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

The same technique applies to mating within a strain and mating betweeen different strains.

Your original question seemed like it was asking if you could fix traits by mating spores from two mushrooms from the same strain, that shared common traits you desired.

The answer was no.

To do what you want to do, you must find which monokaryons within the strain are responsible for the traits, and mate them. The only way to do that is alot of work.

the short solution is to clone the fruit with favorable traits.


Spores from the same mushroom, different mushrooms from the same casing, spores from different strains, will all mate.


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Anonymous

Re: Mating spores [Re: micro]
    #2063185 - 11/01/03 06:51 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

No 2 out of three dikaryons will not fruit. The two that form clamps, but not fertile fruits. False dikaryons due to one of the mating loci being similar and 1 being disimilar. to be a fertile dikaryon both mating type loci must be different, but clamps will form when only one is different.

Edit to correct. Based on an understanding of What A factors do and What B factors do, 1 of the 2 false matings may result in false clamps.

If A factors are responsible for clamp formation.
A mating of A1B1 with A2B2 might still form clamps even though it is not a true dikaryon, because the a factors are different and that side of the mating is succesful.
So 2 of for matings might appear to be succesful, if just checking for clamps.


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Mating spores [Re: ]
    #2063195 - 11/01/03 06:53 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

There is about a 1/10,000 chance of that happening. You're forgetting the loci are multi-allelic.

EDIT: I just figured out why you thought that. That would be for an *ideal* tetrapolar system. That's not the case here -- it's what's called a "modified tetrapolar system." There are many allels on one loci, which helps to prevent outbreeding, even with self-fertilization.

--
Micro


--------------------
Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


Edited by micro (11/01/03 07:01 PM)


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Mating spores [Re: micro]
    #2063249 - 11/01/03 07:24 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

Oh -- I didn't understand what you were saying at first. Clamp connections are only on one loci, but the other loci is needed for fusion. You won't see actual clamp connections unless it's a dikaryon. I can explain further tomorrow, or give references, if you want, but I'm late for a party....

--
Micro


--------------------
Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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Anonymous

Re: Mating spores [Re: micro]
    #2063419 - 11/01/03 08:18 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

Explain to me?

I am still confused!!!

I thought the system was to prevent inbreeding. Self-sterility!!!


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Anonymous

Re: Mating spores [Re: ]
    #2063777 - 11/01/03 11:05 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

Thanks Micro, I understand my error.

System prevents selfing, promotes outcrossing.

As long as the Afactors and B factors are different they mate.

Differences are based on alleles present at each of the A factor loci, and each of the B factor loci.
A(allele set 1)1
A(allele set2)2
B(alllele set1)1
B(allele set2)2

A1B1 mates with A2B2 succesfully. Dikaryon.

A1B1 mating with A2B1 might form clamps but not true clamps, no success.

A2B1 mates with A2B2 no clamps, no success.

Mating between a single strain 1/4 compatability.
Mating between two different strains, that share NO common parents, 100% compatable.
Mating between two strains that share a like A or B factor will result in 3/4 compatability.

The difference between A1 and A2 is the make up of the alleles.  Not loci position. Though the alleles of A or B may be found on two different loci positions A1 at loci x and y.  B1 at loci z and k.

I think we are on the same page now. :tongue:




 


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Mating spores [Re: ]
    #2064003 - 11/02/03 01:07 AM (14 years, 20 days ago)

Yeah -- that's pretty much how it breaks down.

If there is no common parent there should be over a 98% of mating. This doesn't apply to mixing mycelium of different strains, though, of course. Only to different spores mating.

Honestly, I'm drunk right now, though -- so if I have anything to add, I will tomorrow (in addition to my Holloween punch recipe.)

Cheers!

--
Micro



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Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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Offlinewhitesox
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Re: Mating spores [Re: micro]
    #2064091 - 11/02/03 02:28 AM (14 years, 20 days ago)

He's drunk and wants to know what my point is?


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: Mating spores [Re: ]
    #2064195 - 11/02/03 03:58 AM (14 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Teonan said:
System prevents selfing, promotes outcrossing.

As long as the Afactors and B factors are different they mate.

Differences are based on alleles present at each of the A factor loci, and each of the B factor loci.
A(allele set 1)1
A(allele set2)2
B(alllele set1)1
B(allele set2)2

A1B1 mates with A2B2 succesfully. Dikaryon.

A1B1 mating with A2B1 might form clamps but not true clamps, no success.

A2B1 mates with A2B2 no clamps, no success.

Mating between a single strain 1/4 compatability.
Mating between two different strains, that share NO common parents, 100% compatable.
Mating between two strains that share a like A or B factor will result in 3/4 compatability.

The difference between A1 and A2 is the make up of the alleles. Not loci position. Though the alleles of A or B may be found on two different loci positions A1 at loci x and y. B1 at loci z and k.






Is there any paper/document on the net that explains all this genetics stuff, so that even a beginner can understand it ?


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-> It Is Not Important WHO Is Right But WHAT Is Right <-


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Mating spores [Re: ragadinks]
    #2064689 - 11/02/03 12:37 PM (14 years, 19 days ago)

TMC has a little bit of info on it, but it's really watered down. If your school has it, check out Fungi, a textbook by Watkinson and Gooday, chapters 4 and 5. Otherwise, any college level Biology textbook or Genetics textbook should have a lot of stuff in it (just not specific for Fungi.) Or a good library should also have books on fungi or mycology you can check out.

Otherwise, you might want to try a search on kazaa for "ebook fungi" or "ebook genetics," or Biology, etc.

Hope that helped a bit! Sorry, I don't know of anything on the net....

--
Micro


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(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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