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OfflineBodhiSci


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 27
Loc: Rocky Point, MX
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Probably should NOT used desiccant packets if storing mushrooms with oxygen absorber
    #19956215 - 05/07/14 09:17 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I have been doing some research regarding long long term storage, and it looks like using both silica gel packets and an iron oxide oxygen absorber could be counter productive. 

Oxygen absorbers require at least a low level of humidity to work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_absorber

Also, ALL plastics are gas permeable, including heat sealed vacuum bags.  If you want to keep O2 out, you might want to consider storing them in mason jars with an O2 absorber, foil lined mylar bags (with thick enough foil (no holes), or a combination of the two.  I am considering getting mylar bags with absorbers in them (as much air removed as possible) and putting those in a large gallon mason jar or perhaps a plastic 5 gallon bucket designed for storage (seals) and replacing an O2 absorber in there every 6 months or so.  Glass has no permeability so that is probably the best option if you are serious about it (I am obviously).  Also, using a bitterant free canned "air" product is possible because it is for all intensive puroposes inert.  I am not sure if adding an absorber to that is a good idea or not to get any remaining oxygen that either leaked in or was never removed.  The absorbers can reduce levels to .1% so perhaps that is unnecessary.  Techniques could combine these options in various ways.  I have considered adding an 02 absorber, then later adding a desiccant packet after the 02 has been reduced.

Some good info on long term storage of food: 

http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/food-storage-packing-do-it-yourself-facts-myths/70714

Edited by BodhiSci (05/07/14 09:42 PM)

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OfflineBodhiSci


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 27
Loc: Rocky Point, MX
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Probably should NOT used desiccant packets if storing mushrooms with oxygen absorber [Re: BodhiSci]
    #19956355 - 05/07/14 09:41 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I did see one person who put an 02 absorber in with cyans and somehow the mushrooms were rehydrated a bit.  Not sure if there was something else going on there but I believe some o2 absorbers have clay in them with a bit of moisture to help the iron absorb the oxygen.  Might want to consider that if using a large absorber in a small bag.  Like I said, one could put the o2 absorber in first, restrict air flow, then slide in a desiccant after 15 min.


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Disclaimer:  All of my posts are regarding legal species, are purely theoretical, or are for research outside of the United States.

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OfflineHappy Littletree
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Registered: 01/02/14
Posts: 1,386
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Re: Probably should NOT used desiccant packets if storing mushrooms with oxygen absorber [Re: BodhiSci] * 1
    #19957029 - 05/08/14 12:40 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

"If absorbers are sealed in a package with desiccants some thought should be given to just how low the relative humidity will be dropped. Silica gel will reduce humidity to approximately 40% which should not interfere with the absorbers oxidation reaction. Other desiccants, however, are capable of reducing relative humidity to very low levels. This might adversely affect your absorber's ability to carry out its mission by removing moisture from the absorber package that is necessary to sustain the oxidation reaction. If you do use desiccants and oxygen absorbers in the same package, place the desiccant on the bottom, fill the package and then place the oxygen absorber on top of the food just before sealing."

Source:
https://www.usaemergencysupply.com/information_center/food_storage_faq/oxygen_absorbers.htm#.U2sltuaJVVs

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Offlineburnsalot
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Registered: 03/14/14
Posts: 22
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Probably should NOT used desiccant packets if storing mushrooms with oxygen absorber [Re: Happy Littletree]
    #19958059 - 05/08/14 09:11 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Mylar bags or some type of foil lined scent proof bags as one of a couple of layers of vacuum sealed bags may provide the protection you want.  I never used the o2 pks but i dryed them cracker ass dry and threw a silica pk in before vac sealing them into weighed proportions. I then tossed the lot in the freezer.  Never saw a change in potency

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Invisibleblindingleaf
blue collar underworld
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Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
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Re: Probably should NOT used desiccant packets if storing mushrooms with oxygen absorber [Re: burnsalot]
    #19958080 - 05/08/14 09:19 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

im not understanding what could happen here to make things bad... maybe I'm reading it wrong.
i use that ice melter stuff (sodium something hypo chloride or some shit like that), wrapped up in 3 layers of coffee filter, thrown in a food bucket that is air tight with cracker dry fruits.  according to that article, what are the possible negative ramifications of this?


--------------------
A few thoughts on cultivation
MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts

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OfflineBodhiSci


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 27
Loc: Rocky Point, MX
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Probably should NOT used desiccant packets if storing mushrooms with oxygen absorber [Re: Happy Littletree]
    #19959121 - 05/08/14 01:40 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Great info Happy!


--------------------
Disclaimer:  All of my posts are regarding legal species, are purely theoretical, or are for research outside of the United States.

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OfflineBodhiSci


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 27
Loc: Rocky Point, MX
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Probably should NOT used desiccant packets if storing mushrooms with oxygen absorber [Re: blindingleaf]
    #19959174 - 05/08/14 01:52 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I am not sure about that method Blindingleaf.  Are you just using it as a dehydrated salt desiccant?  That leaves o2 still in there unless it covers that too.  But you must know that even HDPE food storage containers exhange enough gas that within a year one can be like the outside air (say with an empty one).  I still think that aftder a year it is alot better than open air because you don't have a circulating supply of fresh air.

You might want to introduce a foil lined mylar bag inside the food pail and oxygen absorbers in each pouch and in the pail (I think) to combat that if you wanted it near 02 free.  I don't think the o2 absorbers keep working too long though. (maybe they do because it is low 02 in there).  Glass and metal are the ultimate in impermeability, but perhaps you could just put a new 02 abosrber in the pail every 6 months.

I think that I am going to use 02 absorbers, cover or block air flow, then insert a straw/wand/tube to the bottom of my container and blow out as much as possible with canned air (non-bitterant).  I did alot of  research to verify that it was indeed inert for all intensive purposes.  It is, I found an FDA letter PDF that discussed it.  Also, 152a propellant it basically two carbons boned with hydrogen atoms attached to one of them and Flourine to the other.  Those are two of the strongest single bonds in chemistry (look it up with a bond strength chart).  I am doing to 02 absorber first because it will be able to work with the moisture in there and hopefully get rid on 99.9% of the oxygen.  Then by using the 152a, injected to the bottom of the container, it will push out most of the rest if I do it right.I should have basically no moisture or oxygen.  It will be large bags in mylar with absorbers and inside the 5 gallon food pail or large glass container.  This way it should last for ages.  I will definitely keep some small tet baggies for a decade at least just to test and will report back if I remember by that time!  I imagine I would be pretty stoked to have that information and want to share it!

Edited by BodhiSci (05/08/14 02:17 PM)

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OfflineBodhiSci


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 27
Loc: Rocky Point, MX
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Probably should NOT used desiccant packets if storing mushrooms with oxygen absorber [Re: BodhiSci]
    #19959350 - 05/08/14 02:29 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Another inert gas that is commonly available that I have not seen discussed is helium.  You can find 50-ballon party time tanks for $35.

It is actually a noble gas is TRULY inert.  Maybe I should have gone with that but I wanted to save money. Hmmm...  might be worth having a tank around though.

For most people this is all overkill I am sure, I enjoy being a mad scientist though and don't know that many people these days who would help me use grows.  I guess I will have to explore more difficult edibles to keep my mycology bug going!

EDIT:  If I do use a gas for super long term storage, I think that I will use Helium.  Doesn't seem so "chemically" (the idea of my mushrooms sitting in 152a, is starting to bug me and turn me off.)  I can use the helium for other purposes and storage as well.


--------------------
Disclaimer:  All of my posts are regarding legal species, are purely theoretical, or are for research outside of the United States.

Edited by BodhiSci (05/08/14 03:10 PM)

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OfflineBodhiSci


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 27
Loc: Rocky Point, MX
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Probably should NOT used desiccant packets if storing mushrooms with oxygen absorber [Re: BodhiSci]
    #19959757 - 05/08/14 04:05 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Another update for posterity (will try not to serial post in the future):

I have decided to go with mylar true FOIL bags or quart/half gallon jars (If I can pack them with enough, may consider grinding them into a powder) and just adding an oxygen absorber or two (humidity in my storage location is 0-10%).

I made this decision after seaerching wiki for the composition of air.



Notice everything besides o2 is either a noble gas (true inert) or is nitrogen (very inert, used for storage).  I don't know about CH4, methane, but it hardly is even there I think it is pretty damn inert too.  So since oxy absorbers are so cheap, I don't see why I wouldn't just use those.  Glass is the best of the two options as far as being impermeable to o2 and air.  Just kind of harder to pack full and use the space efficiently.  The upside though is they are cheap and you can open just one. and put a new packet in to reuse it. (Be sure to store the packets in a sealed container.)  If you search for "tell tabs" on google, you can get oxygen indicators that will assure you they are still 02 free. They just change color when 02 is present.  A jar prob doesn't need them but one in a another container or bag would let you know it is still being preserved.

Hopefully all this helped someone in some way.


--------------------
Disclaimer:  All of my posts are regarding legal species, are purely theoretical, or are for research outside of the United States.

Edited by BodhiSci (05/08/14 07:59 PM)

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InvisibleBacchus
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 914
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Re: Probably should NOT used desiccant packets if storing mushrooms with oxygen absorber [Re: BodhiSci]
    #20532691 - 09/07/14 10:33 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry to bump a three month old thread, but I don't think that you ever got the thanks that you deserved.

Thanks for the good info on long term storage. I was totally going to use an 02 absorber and desiccant in the same container and call it done. Now I know that there are a few more angles to work out.

Couple of side notes, though. Methane burns, so it isn't inert. Helium is cheap, but the world is actually running out, and it's crucial to health care. It'd look into nitrogen instead.


--------------------


Living on a no-Flash diet is way easier than you think. Give it a shot.

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Offlinesporemaster420
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Registered: 02/11/23
Posts: 39
Last seen: 22 days, 6 minutes
Re: Probably should NOT used desiccant packets if storing mushrooms with oxygen absorber [Re: BodhiSci]
    #28519205 - 10/26/23 05:54 PM (4 months, 30 days ago)

I think the gas permeability of food saver bags is negligible, considering they hold a significant negative pressure for years.

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OfflineRoscoeReturnsS
Crotchety chode man
Male


Registered: 02/12/18
Posts: 1,760
Loc: State of Confusion
Last seen: 10 hours, 11 minutes
Re: Probably should NOT used desiccant packets if storing mushrooms with oxygen absorber [Re: sporemaster420] * 1
    #28519221 - 10/26/23 06:04 PM (4 months, 30 days ago)

9 years, dude. Let it lie.

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OfflineDharmaForKarma
Tub monkey
Male
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 565
Last seen: 10 days, 9 hours
Re: Probably should NOT used desiccant packets if storing mushrooms with oxygen absorber [Re: RoscoeReturns]
    #28519269 - 10/26/23 06:51 PM (4 months, 30 days ago)

Yeah it’s necro but still valid and relevant.

BEEF

How about a section on storage in the Hitchhiker thread.

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