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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4)
    #2051520 - 10/28/03 09:28 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I decided to take this civil rights law class for fun this semester, kind of a breather from all those stuffy neuroscience classes...

Anyway, our class got into a big debate yesterday about affirmitive action, and I heard some new points i hadnt seen here before, so I figured I would share:

Affirmitive Action does not set clear enough goals which can be objectively defined

What problem is it that they are trying to solve? Bias? Bigotry? When will they declare this problem solved? When every African American and Latino has two cars and a 2 story house? I'm highly doubtful that writing blanket legislation designed to accomplish such a vague goal as "diversity" will solve any problems. Indeed, most attempts to legislate basic human nature are met with more harm than good.

I have not heard any talk about the limits of Afirmitive Action. What happens when the goal of "diversity" is met? Do the discriminitory practices necessary to promote "diversity" end at that point? It seems to me that when the government and special interest groups are given privileges, they are often reluctant to give them back, even when those privileges are no longer in the interest of balance.

Affirmitive Action is intended to cure the symptoms, not the causes, of racism and discrimination

I mean, really, its kind of a quick, mickey mouse, band-aid fix. Why should there be lower college admission standards for minorities? If its because grade assement is culturally biased, then that is what should be fixed: grade assesment. The college admission system of reviewing applicants based on their credentials alone is not broken, and needs no modification. If the tests are biased, they should be fixed.

If human resources people are predjudice, they should be fired and replaced with people who have been psychologically screened to make sure they are not predjudice. Imposing racial hiring quotas on companies does not address the root of the issue.

Affirmitive Action will not solve the problem of racial predjudice. If anything, it will reinforce and increase these attitudes.

Sure, Affirmitive Action policies may put more black and latino students in university chairs, but what will the sociological effect be? How is this going to convince predjudice and nuetral people that minorities are equals? Imagine if a white male is sitting in a college lecture next to a black student. The white male busted his ass to get in to that university, and yet he knows that the kid sitting next to him didn't have to live up to the same stringent standards as he did. How is this going to effect the white male's opinion of black people? Why would he come to the conclusion that they are his equals when he knows they are only there because of discriminatory policies against him?

Handing minorities special privileges only reinforces the idea that these people are inferior. It also jusstifies the continued mistreatment of minorities in whatever matters are out of the hands of governbment regulation. Again, by treating the symptoms, rather than the causes, of racism, Affirmitive Action perpetuates the very problem it is trying to solve.

Affirmitive Action doesn't do shit for Asians.

And I have a lot of Asian friends who are pissed about this. They are just as pissed as some of the cross-burning hillbillies I know (in Texas, everyone knows a few. No, I am not, nor do i affiliate with racists, please save your slings and arrows for a more deserving target).

I mean, why shouldn't Asians benefit from such a system if it werent to be put in place? They are a racial minority, right? Theyve been discriminated against just as much as blacks and latinos (WWII internment, black immigration status before civil rights movement, etc...) So why wouldnt they get it? It seems that this plan to end racism is inherently racist itself!!!

Could it have anything to do with the fact that, overall, asians are more prosperous than blacks and latinos? It seems like this attempt at promoting racial diversity has degenerated into a mere socialization of wealth.

Why arent asians considered "necessary benefactors" of Affirmitive Action? And what does that say, in the common man's mind, about races that are?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2052977 - 10/29/03 06:50 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You don't need a class to tell you that affirmative action is wrong.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2053752 - 10/29/03 03:35 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

no, I already knew. but these were some points I hadnt considered.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2053933 - 10/29/03 04:42 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think it's good that you are considering those points, my main problem with affirmative action is that i'm not a racist nor do i look down upon minorities and instead of punishing those like me, they should be consintrating on getting rid of those numbnuts that would not hire a person because they are black or whatever color fits the definition. It's really that simple, is the person qualified? if so give him/her the job.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2053946 - 10/29/03 04:47 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

exactly.

lowering the standards for certain races only promotes the idea that they are indeed inferior. I believe that all races are equally capable. Therefore, I see no need for quotas and lowered standards.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2055020 - 10/29/03 10:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Come on now doctorj asians are so good at math they dont need any help. You should know that with so many asian friends.


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OfflineTao
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: d33p]
    #2059658 - 10/31/03 03:46 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

not to mention the asians at my school all seem to drive around in expensive cars on daddy's checkbook. and their percentage in the school seems to be exponentially rising. whites will need affirmative action before asians do.

the problem that i have with affirmative action is that it does not distinguish rich black kids from the actual impoverished ones theyre trying to help. for example, my friend was going to law school in his first year and trying desperately, like everyone else in his class, to find an internship for summer. the best internship available (one that was both the most distinguished and paid extremely well), he could not even apply to because it was a 'minority scholarship'. so who did it go to? this rich black girl who was the daughter of a judge, drove around in a 45,000 dollar car and hadn't worked a job a day in her life. so this scholarship is meant to help out the disadvantaged?!? clearly something is wrong.
what we should do instead is universities should give some sort of weight in a scale to someone who comes from a statistically poor high school. it should be based on socioeconomic factors, not just race. this would exclude the rich black kids while helping poor white kids as well.


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2060087 - 10/31/03 10:39 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
I think it's good that you are considering those points, my main problem with affirmative action is that i'm not a racist nor do i look down upon minorities and instead of punishing those like me, they should be consintrating on getting rid of those numbnuts that would not hire a person because they are black or whatever color fits the definition. It's really that simple, is the person qualified? if so give him/her the job.





If I own a company, should I be required to hire black people? Should I be required ot have a certiain arbitratily designated number or percentage of black people? Wouldn't the founding fathers of America be considered, to use your brilliant term "numbnuts"? Lets say that AAction was required back then, would America turn o the way it ti before forced integration? Probably not.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: lysergic]
    #2060115 - 10/31/03 11:07 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Re-read what i posted. I'm NOT in favor of ANY affirmative action policy. I don't support nor have i ever supported anything to do with quota's. These "numbnuts" i speak of are those that would not hire a black guy for the mere reason they are black, white, mexican and or green. I'm not sure how you figured that i would be for this. I thought the "most qualified" part of my post was a dead give away of what I think of Affirmative action. Racists suck and affirmative action is legislated racism.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2060128 - 10/31/03 11:17 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry about that :smile: I was answering your post and got off on a tangent :smile:


However, if I wanted to operate a company, I don't think i'd be hiring many non-whites, and I Don't think I should be penalized, either legally or via public opinion, for doing so. The desire to support your own kind isn't wrong, it's only recently that that desire, in white people at least, is demonized.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: lysergic]
    #2060134 - 10/31/03 11:23 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

However, if I wanted to operate a company, I don't think i'd be hiring many non-whites




What if the non-whites are more qualified?

Quote:

and I Don't think I should be penalized, either legally or via public opinion, for doing so.




Every body has a right to have an opinion in a free society and to say otherwise is bordering on facism. if enough people hear about the hiring practices of your company they won't buy the widgets you have to sell, with the exceptions of those that think the same.

Quote:

The desire to support your own kind isn't wrong, it's only recently that that desire, in white people at least, is demonized.





i disagree, in the business world your only desire should be to better the company with the most qualified and NOT because the color of their employees skin. I'm surprised you feel this way. Noone is saying you can't be proud of your kin. The demonization happens when racism peeks it's ignorant head.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2060152 - 10/31/03 11:30 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

If a non-white candidate was more qualified than a white one, i'd hire him.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: lysergic]
    #2060153 - 10/31/03 11:30 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

or her


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: lysergic]
    #2060157 - 10/31/03 11:32 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

and that would be fair...it's good to hear.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
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Re: Arguements Against Affirmitive Action (Ax4) [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2060162 - 10/31/03 11:35 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I try :smile:


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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