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Offlinecannabis_sativa
journeyman
Registered: 03/21/02
Posts: 88
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
A free country
    #2041901 - 10/25/03 02:48 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

all drugs should be legal. the only illegal thing that should have to do with drugs is driving. i believe freedom is a gift of life and NO ONE should be able to tell anyone what to do as long as it wont effect other peoples life. what gives people the right to form a government and tell a group of people how to act in their personal life. i only use hallucinigens, and i dont support meth and that stuff but it is everyone freedom to live their OWN life and not be told what do. if everyone is created equal like this country says, then why it their government officials telling us that we must go to school and not use drugs. they cant tell us what to do in our lives. this is not a free country. it may not be as bad as the USSR or China was, but the USA is still a COMMUNISTIC country because they make choices for us that no one has a right to make but ourselves.


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Getting high is fun :smile:


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Offlinemanna_man
High onlife.....andcrack

Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 481
Loc: Vancouver
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: A free country [Re: cannabis_sativa]
    #2042237 - 10/25/03 05:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"what gives people the right to form a government and tell a group of people how to act in their personal life."

well, if there was no government, i don't think we'd be living in a perfect, happy eutopia. There would be chaos. The human race needs some form of direction and without the govt we'd be nowhere.


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This post is protected under copyrite law.All above content is strictly the property of ?manna_man.Any infringement of copyright property is strictly prohibited.Any violators will be stretched, shot, and then vaporized into a state of anti-matter, where they will cease to exist.


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
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Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 64,427
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Re: A free country [Re: manna_man]
    #2042256 - 10/25/03 05:15 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

And you know this how?

Tribes seem to get along just fine in the jungle with no form of governmental control. Chaos? I'd rather have that than organized control and manipulation of the masses/peasants.

The government should be there to just solve problems of the community as a whole, not to direct and dictate lives, and enslave people to credit and consumerism.

I'd prefer chaos over this bullshit government that are violators of free will.


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InvisibletrendalM
point of inflection
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,376
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: A free country [Re: cannabis_sativa]
    #2042349 - 10/25/03 05:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I think there should be one law: don't infringe upon the rights of another.


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You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: A free country [Re: Shroomism]
    #2042435 - 10/25/03 06:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Tribes seem to get along just fine in the jungle with no form of governmental control. Chaos? I'd rather have that than organized control and manipulation of the masses/peasants.



I have a book on this subject, "Society Against The State" - by Pierre Clastres. If you have a chance, I'd recommend reading it.

Quote:

I'd prefer chaos over this bullshit government that are violators of free will.



You are not the only one my friend.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibletak
geo's henchman
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Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 3,758
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Re: A free country [Re: Evolving]
    #2042463 - 10/25/03 06:38 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I dont think communism in its true nature would be a bad idea. It would be seriously hard to implement, but a step in the right direction. Most pro-communists I know are also big on human rights and support consensual crimes. I wouldnt mind being an equal to everyone else, including govt officials. The problem i see now is the dream of getting filthy rich and owning slaves wich is what america is all about. Making as much money as you can, and finding every possible way to shove the poor into absolute poverty, so you can make more money, and buy a 5th house. maybe im retarded, who knows.


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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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Anonymous

Re: A free country [Re: cannabis_sativa]
    #2042593 - 10/25/03 07:43 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

the problem is force. human beings use force against eachother.

and where there are enough people in one place, some group of people will always become the 'top dogs' as far as force goes.... the ones with the most men, guns, swords, clubs... whatever...

we call this group the government. that's all the government is... the guys with the most men and guns... the ones who can't be beaten or at least haven't yet. government is force.

to what ends would a rightous government use it's monopoly on force?

if the formation of government is inevitable (and it is), what sort of government should we have?

the fundamental question is: when is the use of force justified?

to which i would answer: in self defense or in defense of a third party against force... basically, only in response to force.

this is the only proper use of force. this is the only proper role of government. if a person uses force for any other reason, they are a criminal; if a government uses it for any other reason, it is a tyranny. to initiate force against a peaceful person, whether you are but one man or a vast army, is wrong.

a rightous government exists as a bodyguard, not a master.


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,229
Re: A free country [Re: ]
    #2045793 - 10/26/03 11:14 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Haha, people actually think we'd be chaotic without the government? Bullshit.


If we governed ourselves as communities, life would very well be blissful to some extent.

Growing our own foods, communal like living - we'd be much healthier, peaceful, and realistic.

Barter system would have to be in full effect.


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OfflinePeyoteZen
Save The Republic
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Registered: 05/05/03
Posts: 16,700
Loc: America Again!
Last seen: 1 hour, 56 minutes
Re: A free country [Re: manna_man]
    #2049290 - 10/28/03 01:50 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

manna_man said:

The human race needs some form of direction and without the govt we'd be nowhere.




ok cmon now, dont be so simplistic
its not governement that infringes on our personal lives,
its conservatism.
Liberal ideology says you have the right to live your life as you see fit.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: A free country [Re: PeyoteZen]
    #2049338 - 10/28/03 02:04 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

manna_man said:
Liberal ideology says you have the right to live your life as you see fit.



As long as what you see fit fits with liberal ideology. If not, then you must be forced to conform.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: A free country [Re: ]
    #2049419 - 10/28/03 02:28 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Very well put mushmaster...
The righteous government would only exist to act as a neutralizer against attacks.. "Pre-emptive attacks or strike" is the biggest crock of shit ever invented. The government should be a FORCE OF DEFENSE ONLY. This doesn't mean blow them up and kill them all. Stop them. Communication works wonders.

All citizens of Earth should unite and form a single government that is based on this one principle, that is the principle of free will.. that each being has it and to not interfere with the free will of others. How are we to make open communication with possible alien civilizations if we are so divided on our own planet? What sane group of evolved beings would want to initiate open contact with such an insane, bloodthirsty group of savages hellbent on power, money and world domination? Perhaps not all of us are like this, but I would wager they would look at the collective consciousness more so than the individual.

People of Earth! Unite!


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: A free country [Re: tekramrepus]
    #2049640 - 10/28/03 04:07 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


If we governed ourselves as communities, life would very well be blissful to some extent.

Growing our own foods, communal like living - we'd be much healthier, peaceful, and realistic.

Barter system would have to be in full effect.




personally, i think thats a bit over-the-top idealistic. our societies CHOOSE to diversify workloads, noone is stopping anyone from going out and growing their own food. its just so much more efficient that way. and as for "governing ourselves as communities" thats the whole idea behind our democratic government ("We the people..."). WE have put these laws in place, not an external force. if we were in communities, these laws could just as easily be put in place as they are now.
Like Hobbes says, some sort of state must be enacted to protect us against physical tyranny. during this last century we learned as well that the state must also protect the interests of its impoverished citizens from capitalist tyranny by the rich lest a proletariat revolution or other unrests should occur. if physical tyranny is the only tyranny you see, i don't believe youre paying close enough attention. i much prefer what we have now to a century ago. 'mere' 40 hour weeks with weekends, living comfortably in houses, cars to give us transportational freedom, heating, running water, electricity...we have it pretty good. appreciate what you have in life, dont just complain because you can't do drugs in the open. sure it would be better if we could (and it should be that way) but don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Do not exaggerate that we lived in utopias before we had a way to organize ourselves, a goverment.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Anonymous

Re: A free country [Re: Tao]
    #2050409 - 10/28/03 01:53 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Like Hobbes says, some sort of state must be enacted to protect us against physical tyranny.

yes, but where hobbes fell short was with the whole social contract theory, and the idea that when we form government, we waive certain liberties in exchange for protection. he was still saying that the proper order of things was that people subject to the power of the state, which in his days was something which denying could get you into serious trouble.

during this last century we learned as well that the state must also protect the interests of its impoverished citizens from capitalist tyranny by the rich lest a proletariat revolution or other unrests should occur.

let's talk about that... the rise of capitalism and industry. now... you would say that the businesses were bad, and exploited people, and needed to be restrained (by force) by the government. i ask you: if the factories were so bad, why were people leaving in droves from the farm life they'd lived with for centuries? were the people worse off with industrialism than they were without it?

no. they left the farms for the cites because it provided them a better standard of living than the lifestyle they'd been living for generations. if they were better off on the farms, they never would have left. the people were better off with the factories than they would have been without them. this is why they went to them. it is called free association and voluntary exchange.

who is the government to come and say that they aren't better-off-enough, and that the businesses need to make it even better for people than that? a business is not a charity. if you don't like working there, go somewhere else.

if physical tyranny is the only tyranny you see, i don't believe youre paying close enough attention.

it is. without force, you are completely free to live as you choose, with only the natural restraints of course.

one such restraint is that you cannot do things you cannot afford, and you must work for things you want. this has always been the state of things. if you were a paleolithic man, the fact that you actually had to hunt to feed yourself, and could not eat any more than you were capable of catching, would not be any 'tyranny' against you.

you would have to build your own home. if you could not muster up the productive resources to do so, you would live without one. again... this no tyranny against you.

even if you were the only person on earth, these restrictions would still apply. tyranny requires intrusion by others, and the only sort of intrusion which cannot be simply ignored is the forceful kind.

living comfortably in houses, cars to give us transportational freedom, heating, running water, electricity...we have it pretty good.

hah! if you think that the forceful hand of government is responsible for bringing these things to us, you've got another thing coming my friend... the government does not make, build, or improve anything. government is guns.

the best thing government can do is not to enforce a social order, or an economic order, or a religious order. forcefully invading upon peaceful people's lifestyles, voluntary exchanges, or spiritual practices is no way to go about things. no, the the best thing it can do, and the only thing it should do, is enforce the peace.

i'll recapitulate:

a government is nothing more than the most powerful army in the land. this gives it no more right to initiate force than anyone else. it only allows it to get away with it... which some people, most bothersomely, don't seem to have a problem with.


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