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OfflineFivel
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: eatyualive]
    #20457872 - 08/22/14 06:13 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Doing P2G today. How many quart jars can you get out of one wide mouth half pint cake? I have 12 quarts of grain prepped. One cake will do it right?


--------------------
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #20459417 - 08/22/14 01:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Excuse me if I'm missing something painfully obvious but, I think SBJ and space were thinking the same thing I am. If you do this with verm barrier and pf style lids is there not a chance that contams trapped in the dry verm layer could end up in the mix? They would not be a concern if fruiting or spawning but to inoculate grain spawn is a different beast.

I know a lot of the old School think us noobs are too paranoid about contams and that things like open air LC inoculations are an acceptable and measured risk or taking prints on the counter and making syringes with them is fine but, IME if I get even a little careless with my sterile tek or try to cut a corner it always seems to bite me in the ass. Hence why I would be hesitant to try something like this and even more reluctant to recommend it.  Thoughts?





There may be a chance of contaminants getting into the mix just as there is a chance of contaminants entering your grain jars when you open them to do transfers. What makes this method work well regardless is the amount of inoculation points created by the cake. Eats uses fine grain verm in his cakes. When these cakes are broken up well, they crumble into tiny dust-like pieces. Each of these tiny pieces will then become a point from which mycelium grows. Look at the day 3 burma pic eat posted above. See all those tiny little bits of verm stuck to the sides of the jars? They're all inoculation points, much more than when using regular larger sized grains. This results in your grain jars colonizing much faster which means any contaminant present won't have time to germinate and take hold of the grains before the mycelium does. Sort of the same concept as pasteurizing your bulk subs except instead of pasteurizing the sub to allow the myc time to colonize it you're blasting the sterile grains with a ton of inoculation points that take over before anything else can.


One of the "painfully obvious" things you missed is the fact that THIS TEK WORKS, as proven in eats pics over YEARS on this forum and mycotopia. I've seen it in action  myself and I've been using the same tek for my clones ever since eats showed it to me a few years ago and I've had 0 contams thus far. What's the point of coming into a thread to say why something shouldn't work when someone is proving to you it does? :shrug: I don't get it.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: FooMan]
    #20459528 - 08/22/14 01:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Whoa I think you misinterpret my intent. I am not trying to bash the tek, nor am I ignorant of the fact that it works (at least for some people certainly eats results are impressive). I admit that I was guilty for harshing on things a bit, maybe my wording could have been better. I have been talking with eat on the subject recently and have since come around to the idea that speed and number of nock points counts for a lot (or at least more than I was giving credit for). Shit my best successes lately have been with LC and yet I would still hesitate to recommend them to everyone. The koolaide was going around a lot and I am sure I drank my share :lol:

Anyway if I have come across as a doubting Thomas I apologize.  Its just that I'm one if those people not simply satisfied with the "how" I need to know the "why" as well.

BTW its good to see the mods being more visible and on top of lippy noobs like me :thumbup: Hopefully the trend continues :awesomenod:

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InvisibleMush 4 Brains
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: FooMan]
    #20459793 - 08/22/14 02:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What's the point of coming into a thread to say why something shouldn't work when someone is proving to you it does? (shrug) I don't get it.



In the past few years, new methods and techniques came about.  They eat the old, and the somewhat newer posters forget (or maybe never even see certain methods) and think that one particular way is not only the best way but the only way that will effectively work. 

I know that I didnt come up with the idea of doing P2G in the past by myself, probably saw eatyu's or another's growers posts.  I've been doing P2G transfers since 07 with great success.  It definitely was a great stepping stone for me to progress as a grower.  I understand the skepticism of the (somewhat) newer growers (I say new, not amateur because I will concede that Pasty seems pretty knowledgeable) 

The dogma is strong here, most people in the last few years simply parrot each other I've noticed.  Not a lot of first hand experience.  Seeing is believing though.  It's funny, the collective cultivation dogma is so strong here that even TC's are getting questioned/challenged.

I actually have some pf to grain transfers I did yesterday, I'll post them somewhere when done.  I want to give a special thanks to Foo, Eatyu, Oatman, Monstermitch, Ohmatic, and RR just to name a few.  I've learned a lot from all of you.  RR should chime in, he's an expert in explaining how and why things exactly work.

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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #20459874 - 08/22/14 02:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hey Pasty, I wasn't intending to attack you personally. Your concerns were definitely justified and I tried to explain the "why" in the first part of my reply. The last part of my post, even though it was in response to your post was due to my overall frustration with the closed-minded attitudes some members seem to have in the cult forum these days. Plus eats is a friend of mine and I've seen him take shit from members here for years over some of his methods.

I know you're good people and make positive contributions to the community. Yours just happened to be the lucky post I came across to vent some of my frustrations on :lol: I'm not mad at ya!


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #20459944 - 08/22/14 02:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I tried to come up with a reply to your previous reply but only ended up answering my own questions with:

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
the idea that speed and number of nock points counts for a lot (or at least more than I was giving credit for).




So say the verm barrier is riddled with mold spores and the schmuv makes them blow all over the recipient media but to no ill effect.
Wouldn't this mean p2g can just as easily be done in open air simply because the mold spores dont have time to germinate and start eating?

mold contamed agar petri dishes would still raise a concern in my head if I were to use a schmuv.
The transferred tissue wouldn't colonize the entire plate before the bad spores got to germinate on the edges of the petri.

Just like a FH, as far as I understand you shouldn't open contamed petris in front of that either..

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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: FooMan]
    #20459998 - 08/22/14 03:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

No worries :thumbup: I share some if your concerns and I think that the solution lies in better education, which might displace to some extent the tendency for some to simply repeat dogma. To that end I welcome some of the more oldschool guys coming back to the boards. Eat has been very tolerant of questions and I for one have learned a few things from him the last couple days :rockon:

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Offlinetripdawg420
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #20460009 - 08/22/14 03:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

its awesome how you stay clean doing this :thumbup:


--------------------
HUSTLER
How U Survive This Life Everyday Resourcefully
epic GT mono tub
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17277772

wbs tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11525679
coir tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11917410
results :thumbup:

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InvisibleMush 4 Brains
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: tripdawg420]
    #20460109 - 08/22/14 03:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tripdawg420 said:
its awesome how you stay clean doing this :thumbup:



If I remember correctly, I think I've seen you post that you've done P2G no?

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Offlinetripdawg420
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: Mush 4 Brains]
    #20460117 - 08/22/14 03:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

nope link it :shrug:


--------------------
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How U Survive This Life Everyday Resourcefully
epic GT mono tub
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17277772

wbs tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11525679
coir tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11917410
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InvisibleMush 4 Brains
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: tripdawg420]
    #20460130 - 08/22/14 03:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I must be mistaken, thought you did though huh

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Offlinetripdawg420
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: Mush 4 Brains]
    #20460142 - 08/22/14 03:25 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:shrug: nope im still scraching my head  :strokebeard:


--------------------
HUSTLER
How U Survive This Life Everyday Resourcefully
epic GT mono tub
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17277772

wbs tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11525679
coir tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11917410
results :thumbup:

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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: Fivel]
    #20460684 - 08/22/14 04:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Fivel said:
Doing P2G today. How many quart jars can you get out of one wide mouth half pint cake? I have 12 quarts of grain prepped. One cake will do it right?



that should work perfectly.


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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: FooMan]
    #20460725 - 08/22/14 05:07 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:



There may be a chance of contaminants getting into the mix just as there is a chance of contaminants entering your grain jars when you open them to do transfers. What makes this method work well regardless is the amount of inoculation points created by the cake. Eats uses fine grain verm in his cakes. When these cakes are broken up well, they crumble into tiny dust-like pieces. Each of these tiny pieces will then become a point from which mycelium grows. Look at the day 3 burma pic eat posted above. See all those tiny little bits of verm stuck to the sides of the jars? They're all inoculation points, much more than when using regular larger sized grains. This results in your grain jars colonizing much faster which means any contaminant present won't have time to germinate and take hold of the grains before the mycelium does. Sort of the same concept as pasteurizing your bulk subs except instead of pasteurizing the sub to allow the myc time to colonize it you're blasting the sterile grains with a ton of inoculation points that take over before anything else can.







Foo summed it up better than i can. lol

and hes right i used to use the coarse grade verm but since ive used this method, ive only used the fine verm in the pf jars. and that is the point, there are many inoculation points because you want to grind the pf cake into as tiny pieces as you can. so that there are even more inoculation points than grain so it colonizes quicker. i was trying to illustrate this with the close up pictures.

in response to the slurry thing. when your pf cake is a little more wet than normal, it doesn't break up as easily into smaller pieces so this will cause your grain to colonize slower. that doesn't mean that the cake won't work. and ive also p2g'd pf jars that are also too wet, it just resulted in a little slower colonization time but it did work.

now I have never said that this method isn't contam free. i have had contams more in the past than now. but its not anymore than if i had used a flowhood or a sab/ glovebox.


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Edited by eatyualive (08/22/14 05:14 PM)

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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: FooMan] * 1
    #20460753 - 08/22/14 05:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FooMan said:
Hey Pasty, I wasn't intending to attack you personally. Your concerns were definitely justified and I tried to explain the "why" in the first part of my reply. The last part of my post, even though it was in response to your post was due to my overall frustration with the closed-minded attitudes some members seem to have in the cult forum these days. Plus eats is a friend of mine and I've seen him take shit from members here for years over some of his methods.

I know you're good people and make positive contributions to the community. Yours just happened to be the lucky post I came across to vent some of my frustrations on :lol: I'm not mad at ya!




I'm glad you said this. I was starting to think questioning someones methods, especially when they defy my understanding, was an inappropriate way to expand my knowledge.

I understand what you mean though. With a lack of mods and TC's posting regularly, things have gotten a little weird. Ya'll made some good choices with the new mods.


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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: tripdawg420]
    #20460761 - 08/22/14 05:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tripdawg420 said:
its awesome how you stay clean doing this :thumbup:




thank you, im not the only one though. this has been tried and tested by many folks over many different sites. i posted this thread years ago. sometimes the threads get lost in space you know. its hard to dig around unless you know the name of what your looking for and something that might be interesting might be lost in the grains of sand.


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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: SpitballJedi] * 1
    #20460793 - 08/22/14 05:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Quote:

FooMan said:
Hey Pasty, I wasn't intending to attack you personally. Your concerns were definitely justified and I tried to explain the "why" in the first part of my reply. The last part of my post, even though it was in response to your post was due to my overall frustration with the closed-minded attitudes some members seem to have in the cult forum these days. Plus eats is a friend of mine and I've seen him take shit from members here for years over some of his methods.

I know you're good people and make positive contributions to the community. Yours just happened to be the lucky post I came across to vent some of my frustrations on :lol: I'm not mad at ya!




I'm glad you said this. I was starting to think questioning someones methods, especially when they defy my understanding, was an inappropriate way to expand my knowledge.

I understand what you mean though. With a lack of mods and TC's posting regularly, things have gotten a little weird. Ya'll made some good choices with the new mods.





i in fact love people asking questions. please don't feel that i won't try to answer what i can. sometimes i miss a post or two and if i don't please pm if your in need of a quick response. i don't mind helping at all.  im all for open discussion to find new things out. im not into arguing about something someone told you wouldn't work and then people repeat it over and over again that it doesn't. then ill show them 20 examples that it does work from many different growers. and they still want to try to begin to throw insults out or argue about something they have in fact never tried. have you tried it? that should be the answer to many of the questions.

and yes when i was starting to do those dub tubs ect. everyone was flaming the hell out of me. i kept saying why does everyone want to fan their tubs? do i? hell no, do you? hell now, who has time to sit there all day fanning? i don't. im always thinking of ways to make things as easy as they can be. which also why i don't put tape on my holes during incubation. i tape my black plastic to the wall and i do all kinds of things it seems most people aren't doing. so why is it all working if all these things people say don't work do work? that baffles the hell out me and i love people saying it won't work. so keep on saying it. ill prove you wrong.

so ill just post 400 successful results until those who critisize and write things off before trying it don't want to look at the thread anymore because it does work.



when i first did flatcakes. the idea was to fruit from all sides of the cake. and the fact that there was more surface area allowed more fruits. i still use this idea with bulk substrates to this day. ive even fruited bulk substrate like cakes like i have seen some growers do on the omc over the years. i treat my subs on dunks like cakes. i abuse the hell out of my substrates. oh man. i got flamed to hell by everyone about flatcakes and surface area. hippie3 used to ream me but after a while. he saw it actually worked and he came around. anytime people stray from the norm. there will be backlash. think of how many things we have today because someone else did it differently.


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Edited by eatyualive (08/22/14 05:30 PM)

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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: spacechildo]
    #20460820 - 08/22/14 05:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

eatyualive said:
i in fact love people asking questions.




Great! Would you mind sharing your take on this? :tongue2:

Quote:

spacechildo said:
So say the verm barrier is riddled with mold spores and the schmuv makes them blow all over the recipient media
but to no ill effect because of the fast colonization and many noc points.

Wouldn't this mean p2g can just as easily be done in open air simply because
the mold spores dont have time to germinate and start eating before the mycel is 100% colonized?



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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: eatyualive]
    #20460846 - 08/22/14 05:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I feel ya man. Your posts have got me questioning everything I think I know about cultivation; you've actually inspired a change in mind-set.

I'm glad you don't mind my questioning because it's certainly not an attempt to say you're wrong. My questions are always an honest attempt to rationalize my understanding against what I see in front of me; for the most part, it's my understanding that changes.

Thank you for being you


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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: spacechildo]
    #20461273 - 08/22/14 07:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
Quote:

eatyualive said:
i in fact love people asking questions.




Great! Would you mind sharing your take on this? :tongue2:

Quote:

spacechildo said:
So say the verm barrier is riddled with mold spores and the schmuv makes them blow all over the recipient media
but to no ill effect because of the fast colonization and many noc points.

Wouldn't this mean p2g can just as easily be done in open air simply because
the mold spores dont have time to germinate and start eating before the mycel is 100% colonized?








ive done g2g in open air with no contams. i have not tried p2g in open air. that doesn't mean it can't be done.

there is something that ive tried several times just to try it.

i have a giant steel storage shelf i use for supplies and incubation. on the top shelf ive been attempting some open air g2g and prints using the top shelf. ill wipe the hell out of it and clean it with lysol and ive turned off the ac and prepped everything for clean work prior. but i figured it was just like a sab because the work area is closed for the most part. i successfully took prints and made syringes with no contams. the burma strain spore prints i did were done this way and its doing well right now in jars and quarts. although i p2ged the pf cake into the quarts using a shmuvbox and not open air. the only thing i get wary about is the long airtime on the pf jar when im scraping it in open air. you could try it. or do it in a still air box/glove box.


im more worried about the exposure than contams in my verm barrier. i don't find this to be the case. the jars colonize quickly.

open air works if you use those same principles. its similar to the still air box idea. but no box. lol.

ive also even tried a plain plastic 55 gallon clear lawn bag. i just taped it up to prop it up with no airflow and had successful liquid cultures trying this. its a little difficult to work in because the bag wants to fall all the time. there has to be a way to prop it up if your worried. i do all my clone and multispore injections open air. i don't generally do clean work open air though but i have done some in the past with success and failure. ive probably had more unsuccessful attempts than successful open air with grain to grain.

if there were mold spores present, then wouldn't a flowhood as easily blow mold spores everywhere? i think if the verm barrier were contaminated yes it would blow mold spores all over the grain and you would likely get contamination in your quarts. but here is the thing, i don't generally see a high degree of green mold contams in the quart jars i do using this method. mostly i see wetspot bacteria when i prep my quarts too wet by user error. that is not to say i have not had green mold in jars using this method over the years. green mold germinates quickly. the point is to try and colonize as quickly as possible. of course nothing is full proof but i scrape the verm barrier right into my shmuv on the plastic bag floor. maybe others may have advice on how you could take the verm barrier off prior to putting it in your clean work area if your truly worried. i don't even think or worry about that verm barrier and i have no issues.

you know, i keep my foil over my holes in my pf jars and don't use filtered lids.  i haven't had a high percentage of contamination using the verm barrier. i am not by any way using this barrier to inoculate the grain jars. but sometimes you have mycelia growing into the verm barrier. that buffer is removed before inoculating.

you can also use a still air box to do this p2g method. you just want to use quick movements and minimize air time when you open the grain jar. i'd be more worried about the exposed grain to the open air than the verm barrier causing an issue.


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* Lids put on pf jars wrong????????????help!!! Anonymous 639 2 12/10/02 05:49 PM
by TrippingBillies

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