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SpitballJedi
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Quote:
Mush 4 Brains said: 1) If a pftek jar is able to make it to full colonization from MS, with the typical four open wholes and verm barrier... Why wouldn't it be able to be used for g2g. I mean if it's suitable/clean(sterile) enough for germination> full colonization, why wouldn't it be suitable for g2g (p2g) transfer?
The reason I would think it would be difficult is because of the contam barrier. The cake may be 100% colonized, but the dry verm layer may still have contaminants on it.
It just seems difficult to remove the contam barrier without getting some in the cake. This is fine for fruiting the cake or spawning, but I would be too paranoid about introducing a cake with contams to a sterile grain jar.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying it can't be done, but, it just seems like it would take some skill. There is always the possibility that I'm missing something.
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eatyualive
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Registered: 08/17/01
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Pastywhyte said: Excuse me if I'm missing something painfully obvious but, I think SBJ and space were thinking the same thing I am. If you do this with verm barrier and pf style lids is there not a chance that contams trapped in the dry verm layer could end up in the mix? They would not be a concern if fruiting or spawning but to inoculate grain spawn is a different beast.
I know a lot of the old School think us noobs are too paranoid about contams and that things like open air LC inoculations are an acceptable and measured risk or taking prints on the counter and making syringes with them is fine but, IME if I get even a little careless with my sterile tek or try to cut a corner it always seems to bite me in the ass. Hence why I would be hesitant to try something like this and even more reluctant to recommend it. Thoughts?
if you want to get technical there is always a chance. and there is always a chance anything can contam. even with a flowhood. thats like saying you want to quit cultivation because you have contamination when that is part of the hobby. hell, a very long time ago i had like 10 batches in a row contaminate of grain jars due to some crappy ass grain. it took me a few 20lb bags of grain to figure it out. but i still kept at it. ive also tossed 30 sterilite tubs to contams when i was doing mass bulk using straw in the past. did that deter me? hell no. did i want that to happen again? hell no, but did i say im never doing straw again? hell no.
its a chance im willing to take. the contams are very minimal using this method. you can always try it out on the small scale and when you get your technique down a little better, move on to more jars. what i do is keep a huge stock of regular material brewing. and then i keep about 20% for experiments. always have backup so that in case contams do happen, you have another route to take. right now ive got about 40 jars all done using this method incubating now. if you never experiment you never learn. if you think im being sloppy with my clean work. im not im very anally clean and quick with my clean work. but, i just don't operate on the norms is all. most of methods i use i developed out of experiments with other methods. i just kinda merge them all together to make things easier for myself and spreading the knowledge.
i have not had one contam using a shmuvbox with this method since i fired the pressure cooker back up the last couple years. ive done 4 batches of jars recently with no contams. a few months ago i did 40 ape jars with no issues. soon, i will continue to post every single batch i do in order to show everyone that this works. im not hiding anything that you don't see. im posting it every single time i look at it with no gaps. additionally, ive done this method with clone material that i have stored in the fridge for over 5 years. ive even used pf jars that are 1 year old to do this method with success. when my pf jars colonize, i put them directly in my fridge with the foil lid over the holes. when its time to p2g, i pull out a pf jar from the fridge and do the above method. i don't have any issues with contams anymore than a normal cultivator. id say in all of my years i actually get less contams using this method than other methods. its no better or worse, its just easy.
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Mush 4 Brains said:
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agar work is harder than this. this is simple. thats the point. the dry vermiculite barrier is irrelevant. if you have a colonized pf cake then you can use this method. it makes no difference what lid your using. This is more "noob friendly" than agar work.
It's the perfect next step for a beginner. I remember one particular thread doc t criticizes me for suggesting it. It's certainly nothing new, and I can name a few other posters here who have been doing P2G for years as well.
your right this isn't new, i just posted it because i didn't really see any good illustrations using it. hell its my preferred method now. i try to simplify everything. if it works and its easier with the same success, ill take the quicker route. im reading all this stuff and there are so many extra steps added. ill just skip all those extra steps and get the same results. if people want to try it and it makes it easier for them, thats awesome im glad i can help. if they don't want to try it, and want to keep debating things instead of trying things, it makes no difference to me. ill just keep on trucking either way. because i got plenty of shroom meat to eat.
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eatyualive
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: SpitballJedi]
#20438817 - 08/18/14 06:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said:
Quote:
Mush 4 Brains said: 1) If a pftek jar is able to make it to full colonization from MS, with the typical four open wholes and verm barrier... Why wouldn't it be able to be used for g2g. I mean if it's suitable/clean(sterile) enough for germination> full colonization, why wouldn't it be suitable for g2g (p2g) transfer?
The reason I would think it would be difficult is because of the contam barrier. The cake may be 100% colonized, but the dry verm layer may still have contaminants on it.
It just seems difficult to remove the contam barrier without getting some in the cake. This is fine for fruiting the cake or spawning, but I would be too paranoid about introducing a cake with contams to a sterile grain jar.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying it can't be done, but, it just seems like it would take some skill. There is always the possibility that I'm missing something.
there is always some degree of skill required for everything. i mean how many times did you have to try agar before you got it right?
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Mush 4 Brains said: 1) If a pftek jar is able to make it to full colonization from MS, with the typical four open wholes and verm barrier... Why wouldn't it be able to be used for g2g. I mean if it's suitable/clean(sterile) enough for germination> full colonization, why wouldn't it be suitable for g2g (p2g) transfer?
Because the dry verm layer has contams in it. Even if you dump it out, then scrape the rest off, you could potentially be digging in contams inadvertently which will then make it into your grain jar. Fruiting and bulk spawning is not a sterile process and does not need to be. Spawn making does.
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Mush 4 Brains said: 2) I think over all there is a certain level of sterility that'll work, you have a bit of leeway sometimes. Having a young vigorous culture goes a long way as well. Think about people who use pins from their MS grows to knock up LC or grain by simply dropping the pin in. There's plenty of evidence here that THAT works.
There is even more that it is a potential vector. My first LC that I tried with spores contamed horribly. My success rate with agar wedges to LC is much better.
As for pins to LC, I get contams from pins to agar. My response to people that claim otherwise is that they are either very lucky, or just lying. Even if they are not, its not a practice I would even consider for a second. Making an agar plate is no harder than making an LC. I have a fridge full of cultures that I will most likely never even use. Clean agar wedges are something that are too easy to have on hand.
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Mush 4 Brains said: 3) I like to use a lot of spawn for transfers which I believe helps too.
Not if its contamed If I made LC like you I would be growing contams at a fantastic rate 
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Mush 4 Brains said: 4) My grow room is relatively small and cleaned very frequently.
Inconsequential.
I'm not trying to be a dick, and I don't want to jack what is a good thread, I am just trying to understand what I am missing.
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eatyualive
Eat's You Alive :)



Registered: 08/17/01
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Mush 4 Brains said: I can't say for sure why it works, though I know it does work. If I had to take an educated guess, I'd attribute my personal success to a few different ideas/procedures. (I'd be very interested on what eatyu has to say on this as well.)
1) If a pftek jar is able to make it to full colonization from MS, with the typical four open wholes and verm barrier... Why wouldn't it be able to be used for g2g. I mean if it's suitable/clean(sterile) enough for germination> full colonization, why wouldn't it be suitable for g2g (p2g) transfer?
2) I think over all there is a certain level of sterility that'll work, you have a bit of leeway sometimes. Having a young vigorous culture goes a long way as well. Think about people who use pins from their MS grows to knock up LC or grain by simply dropping the pin in. There's plenty of evidence here that THAT works. The pin growing in a tub isnt in 100% sterile conditions, it's getting ambient air flow from a clean however not sterile grow room.
3) I like to use a lot of spawn for transfers which I believe helps too.
4) My grow room is relatively small and cleaned very frequently.
im only using 2 injection holes in my poly lids for pf jars. but it doesn't matter if its 2 or 4. i just move my needle to the edge and do two injections per hole so i have a 4 point injection on the pf jars.
here is the thing, if you colonize something very fast with clean mycelia, you minimize room for contamation.
its the same principle as using grain spawn to transfer g2g. only your using a pf jar. plain and simple.
also i agree with a new healthy culture. but at the same time, ive had great success using a 7 year old clone with the same method. and also a pf jar stored for a year in the fridge. so, it can be done. also here is the 7 yr old clone. its getting very weak but hell its 7 years old. i ran this clone for 7 years using p2g and shmuvbox. i had no issues doing this the entire time, even with weak, old material. yeah its not the best results but it still fruited two flushes and had decent yield. i was getting 4z dry per first flush and close to that 2nd flush with a dunk. not the usual but decent for 7 years old.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19988833
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: eatyualive]
#20438928 - 08/18/14 06:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
eatyualive said: there is always some degree of skill required for everything. i mean how many times did you have to try agar before you got it right?
Here was my first crack at agar, a clone from one of my first (only did 12) pf cakes, did not isolate, just transferred once. Was stupid easy to do the agar, I had more trouble with when to fruit the damn tray Agar was so easy that I used my first syringe on cakes and screwed up the FC, wrong size jars for most of em, etc. Saved the last drop for a plate, which kept me going for a long time. For me agar was easier than pf tek 

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ive also tossed 30 sterilite tubs to contams when i was doing mass bulk using straw in the past. did that deter me? hell no. did i want that to happen again? hell no, but did i say im never doing straw again? hell no.
I applaud this. The vectors can be complex and might be hard to tack down. At aloha they consider a poor culture to be a contam vector. Not giving up is one of the hardest parts of the hobby, and pinning down something like bad grain has got to be tough. Would drive me nuts for sure.
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here is the thing, if you colonize something very fast with clean mycelia, you minimize room for contamation.
I do agree with this. Lately I have been using larger wedges and more LC to get er done quicker.
I guess if people are intimidated by agar and stuff then things like this are an alternative. I do like the idea of new inoculates, especially for other species and free thinking is good. But I like to really hedge my bets and while I won't be deterred by failure, I want it to be as minimal as I can realistically make it.
Edited by Pastywhyte (08/18/14 07:02 PM)
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eatyualive
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Registered: 08/17/01
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20438988 - 08/18/14 07:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
eatyualive said: there is always some degree of skill required for everything. i mean how many times did you have to try agar before you got it right?
Here was my first crack at agar, a clone from one of my first (only did 12) pf cakes, did not isolate, just transferred once. Was stupid easy to do the agar, I had more trouble with when to fruit the damn tray Agar was so easy that I used my first syringe on cakes and screwed up the FC, wrong size jars for most of em, etc. Saved the last drop for a plate, which kept me going for a long time. For me agar was easier than pf tek 

Quote:
its a chance im willing to take. the contams are very minimal using this method. you can always try it out on the small scale and when you get your technique down a little better, move on to more jars. what i do is keep a huge stock of regular material brewing. and then i keep about 20% for experiments. always have backup so that in case contams do happen, you have another route to take.
I applaud this. The vectors can be complex and might be hard to tack down. At aloha they consider a poor culture to be a contam vector. Not giving up is one of the hardest parts of the hobby, and pinning down something like bad grain has got to be tough. Would drive me nuts for sure.
Quote:
here is the thing, if you colonize something very fast with clean mycelia, you minimize room for contamation.
I do agree with this. Lately I have been using larger wedges and more LC to get er done quicker.
I guess if people are intimidated by agar and stuff then things like this are an alternative. I do like the idea of new inoculates, especially for other species and free thinking is good. But I like to really hedge my bets and while I won't be deterred by failure, I want it to be as minimal as I can realistically make it.
see agar to me was much harder to grasp but this was when i had no tools, no write ups , no supply stores, just a book lol. its much easier when theres a quick and easy pictorial with a recipe. yeah its crazy that agar is easier than pf tek for you. thats a good thing lol.
yeah it is just another way of doing it. not better not worse. just another way.
i find it easier than having to cook a crazy amount of tools all the time to prep agar work. cook the agar, pour the plates, cut the wedge. then cut the wedge again and transfer into jars.
i can wipe a fork with rubbing alc and scarpe it into some quart jars. its less pressure cooking for me, and less prep time in the end. im doing less work.
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: eatyualive]
#20439038 - 08/18/14 07:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Funny enough I love agar, its my favorite part of the hobby. I don't PC tools tho, just a blowtorch and a SAB. I also do a lot of no pour, I usually just do pour agar when I am making tetra agar to keep the bacteria on wild prints and clones down. Otherwise I have about 100 no pour pp5's 
Anyway you guys did have far greater obstacles than people realize. Didn't even have UTFSE 
Edited by Pastywhyte (08/18/14 07:25 PM)
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: eatyualive]
#20439078 - 08/18/14 07:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
eatyualive said: im only using 2 injection holes in my poly lids for pf jars. but it doesn't matter if its 2 or 4.
This may be the part I was missing. I didn't think you were using a filtered lid, but you are using a filtered lid. In my opinion, this greatly reduces the risk of contamination. Or, am I still missing something?
I also found agar to be way easy. I wished I had started with it from day one.
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eatyualive
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: SpitballJedi]
#20439185 - 08/18/14 07:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said:
Quote:
eatyualive said: im only using 2 injection holes in my poly lids for pf jars. but it doesn't matter if its 2 or 4.
This may be the part I was missing. I didn't think you were using a filtered lid, but you are using a filtered lid. In my opinion, this greatly reduces the risk of contamination. Or, am I still missing something?
I also found agar to be way easy. I wished I had started with it from day one.
no there is no filter on the lid. i have plastic small mouth 1/2 pint lids with two 1/4" holes drilled in them. see picture.

the pf substrate is in the jar, there is a half inch verm barrier, then this lid, then a piece of foil over it. this is why i don't take my foil off the jars. i get moisture loss. i actually had a few jars stall out that i had removed the foil from on the last batch of test runs i was doing.
these are the 4 lids i use. the two you see with 2 holes only are the pf jar lids i use. the other two have whatman ports and self healing injection ports. the large wide mouth are used for quart jar lids or multispore syringe batches. i also use it for liquid cloning.
Edited by eatyualive (08/18/14 07:32 PM)
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SpitballJedi
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: eatyualive]
#20439216 - 08/18/14 07:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Gotcha. when you said poly lid, I thought you meant poly GE filters in the lids. But, you meant exactly what you said, poly lids.
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Mush 4 Brains
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20439351 - 08/18/14 07:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Because the dry verm layer has contams in it. Even if you dump it out, then scrape the rest off, you could potentially be digging in contams inadvertently which will then make it into your grain jar. Fruiting and bulk spawning is not a sterile process and does not need to be. Spawn making does.
Yeah but what I'm saying is that if these contams on the verm barrier were such a big deal, why wouldn't they contaminate the pf jar long before it was fully colonized? And of course fruiting and spawning gives you way more leeway regarding sterility but that's not what I was mentioning.
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As for pins to LC, I get contams from pins to agar. My response to people that claim otherwise is that they are either very lucky, or just lying. Even if they are not, its not a practice I would even consider for a second. Making an agar plate is no harder than making an LC. I have a fridge full of cultures that I will most likely never even use. Clean agar wedges are something that are too easy to have on hand.
I agree 100% and I don't make LCs or noc up grain using pins. I too use agar for that. In fact I don't even make LCs or even GLCs at all anymore. I've seen it work first hand though (met another grower who had a healthy, fully colonized grain jar that he noced up with a pin) I've read of success in the forums here too.
And regarding the clean grow room, that's always consequential in precipitating successful grows. I believe it's why I'm able to do open air transfers (excluding agar work of course, which I would at least want a SAB)
I understand your and Spit's skepticism. Don't know what else to say other than it works for me and apparently others. Stamets himself said in The Mushroom Cultivator that (and I'm paraphrasing here) that some growers may have no problems with contams using simple/basic precautions while others will have to go to great lengths to ward off contamination.
That was probably the second fundamental rule of mycology I learned shortly after joining the forums 1)Mycology requires patience AND 2) What works for one, may not necessarily work for all.
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Mush 4 Brains
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20439390 - 08/18/14 08:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
eatyualive said:
Quote:
SpitballJedi said:
Quote:
eatyualive said: im only using 2 injection holes in my poly lids for pf jars. but it doesn't matter if its 2 or 4.
This may be the part I was missing. I didn't think you were using a filtered lid, but you are using a filtered lid. In my opinion, this greatly reduces the risk of contamination. Or, am I still missing something?
I also found agar to be way easy. I wished I had started with it from day one.
no there is no filter on the lid. i have plastic small mouth 1/2 pint lids with two 1/4" holes drilled in them. see picture.

the pf substrate is in the jar, there is a half inch verm barrier, then this lid, then a piece of foil over it. this is why i don't take my foil off the jars. i get moisture loss. i actually had a few jars stall out that i had removed the foil from on the last batch of test runs i was doing.
these are the 4 lids i use. the two you see with 2 holes only are the pf jar lids i use. the other two have whatman ports and self healing injection ports. the large wide mouth are used for quart jar lids or multispore syringe batches. i also use it for liquid cloning.

Nice, those look pretty well protected compared to your average pf tek lids.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Funny enough I love agar, its my favorite part of the hobby. I don't PC tools tho, just a blowtorch and a SAB. I also do a lot of no pour, I usually just do pour agar when I am making tetra agar to keep the bacteria on wild prints and clones down. Otherwise I have about 100 no pour pp5's 
Anyway you guys did have far greater obstacles than people realize. Didn't even have UTFSE 

Same here, I like no pour much better.
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blindingleaf
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Quote:
1)Mycology requires patience AND 2) What works for one, may not necessarily work for all.
QFT
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MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!!
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Dilated
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: blindingleaf]
#20440244 - 08/18/14 10:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I love reading all the debating. My thinking is like Pasty's but if Eatu is having such great success (insane 0-100% colonization speed) I may just have to 'noc up some pf jars again. It's gonna be way down the road because my life is in big transition right now. Can't wait to show you what I'm working on guys so you can follow along and give me some suggestions.
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eatyualive
Eat's You Alive :)



Registered: 08/17/01
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: Dilated]
#20444668 - 08/19/14 07:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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so here is day 3 with the burma p2g.
i just shook it after the picture.
 
and something to mention. sometimes the pf jars have more moisture in them. this may make breaking the mycelia into smaller particles more difficult. a semi dry pf jar is perfect for this because any excess moisture in the grain jars gets soaked up right away with the addition of the dryer mycelia. these jars were dryer than the ape jars. the ape jars were more difficult to break up with a fork.
Edited by eatyualive (08/19/14 08:22 PM)
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: eatyualive]
#20444794 - 08/19/14 08:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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pawnzy
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: SpitballJedi]
#20447084 - 08/20/14 07:06 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Whats that orange thing in first pic? piece of corn?
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eatyualive
Eat's You Alive :)



Registered: 08/17/01
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: pawnzy]
#20449804 - 08/20/14 06:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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so here is day 4 after a shake. things are going well. right in line with the previous jar run.
Day 4 Burma:

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tombosley8
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Re: P2G(Pf Jar to Grain Transfer) [Re: eatyualive]
#20449890 - 08/20/14 06:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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so i have some cakes (with sfd'd lids) and one is fully colonised and a couple days into consolidation. i have a few right behind it just about colonised. Can i use the cake without consolidation? Do you think a fork could be wrapped in foil and pc'd without needing alcohol wipe? wiping with alcohol scares me as this leads to failure with a syringe.
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