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Kickle
Wanderer


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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: deff]
#20356280 - 07/31/14 04:14 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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That definition still admits that there is hate and mental illness. No one need suffer when being compassionate but compassion doesn't arise in the absence of suffering.
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deff
just love everyone



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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Kickle]
#20356329 - 07/31/14 04:23 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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oh there's still suffering for other beings, and then the corresponding compassion for those beings. i thought you meant an enlightened person would still suffer themselves in order to have compassion
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: deff]
#20359465 - 08/01/14 08:55 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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The way i see it is that your identity dissolves/merges into Ananda to the point that you are that, til there's no differentiation anymore, no more ups & downs, so total peace, you go through all the blissfull experiences to keep you on the right track or even sometimes throw you off it but when you've arrived you're no longer chasing blissfull experiences, you've become an emobodyment/beacon of bliss, there's no differentiation between bliss & yourself, experience & experiencer
That being said it can be good to aim for equanimity, neutrality etc when seeking truth, so as to really go all the way beyond conviction, it can be good to reject blissfull experiences in favor of stable truth, but most people would be kidding themselves saying they don't chase after bliss
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deff
just love everyone



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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Chronic7]
#20359499 - 08/01/14 09:01 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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i agree
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Deviate
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Chronic7]
#20362132 - 08/01/14 08:44 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said: The way i see it is that your identity dissolves/merges into Ananda to the point that you are that, til there's no differentiation anymore, no more ups & downs, so total peace, you go through all the blissfull experiences to keep you on the right track or even sometimes throw you off it but when you've arrived you're no longer chasing blissfull experiences, you've become an emobodyment/beacon of bliss, there's no differentiation between bliss & yourself, experience & experiencer
That being said it can be good to aim for equanimity, neutrality etc when seeking truth, so as to really go all the way beyond conviction, it can be good to reject blissfull experiences in favor of stable truth, but most people would be kidding themselves saying they don't chase after bliss
Do you think it would be correct to say that relative to the physical world or the worlds of form, in which there appears to be a duality between those worlds and the one who perceives them, the perceiver is in fact nothing and neutral but further examination reveals that the seer and seen are actually not separate but together form one thing and the nature of this thing is love and bliss?
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Chronic7]
#20362145 - 08/01/14 08:45 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said: it can be good to reject blissfull experiences in favor of stable truth
This is what I strive for.
I have tried chasing bliss and it led me nowhere but downwards. Ultimately I still believe the true nature of Reality is inapplicable for any of our human labels, including "love" and "bliss". Neutrality is the best word I can think of to describe it, but of course even that is a human label in the end.
Ah, well, mysticism + language... what can you do? Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Chronic7
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: deCypher]
#20363525 - 08/02/14 04:45 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
The Chronic said: The way i see it is that your identity dissolves/merges into Ananda to the point that you are that, til there's no differentiation anymore, no more ups & downs, so total peace, you go through all the blissfull experiences to keep you on the right track or even sometimes throw you off it but when you've arrived you're no longer chasing blissfull experiences, you've become an emobodyment/beacon of bliss, there's no differentiation between bliss & yourself, experience & experiencer
That being said it can be good to aim for equanimity, neutrality etc when seeking truth, so as to really go all the way beyond conviction, it can be good to reject blissfull experiences in favor of stable truth, but most people would be kidding themselves saying they don't chase after bliss
Do you think it would be correct to say that relative to the physical world or the worlds of form, in which there appears to be a duality between those worlds and the one who perceives them, the perceiver is in fact nothing and neutral but further examination reveals that the seer and seen are actually not separate but together form one thing and the nature of this thing is love and bliss?
I don't think it would ever be 100% correct to say anything about anything, we just give it our best shot, but i don't think what you said there was way off the mark
Your comment made me think of something i started becoming aware of while having an orgasm a few years ago, that love/bliss/happiness is felt in unity, whether that be unity with food, the opposite sex, an activity, or unity of the seer & the seen, when we unify it feels good, to me this implied something fundamental about the universe and the nature of separation/unity and spurred me on the great search
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
The Chronic said: it can be good to reject blissfull experiences in favor of stable truth
This is what I strive for.
I have tried chasing bliss and it led me nowhere but downwards. Ultimately I still believe the true nature of Reality is inapplicable for any of our human labels, including "love" and "bliss". Neutrality is the best word I can think of to describe it, but of course even that is a human label in the end.
Ah, well, mysticism + language... what can you do? Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent. 
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Deviate
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: deCypher]
#20366037 - 08/02/14 06:34 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
The Chronic said: it can be good to reject blissfull experiences in favor of stable truth
This is what I strive for.
I have tried chasing bliss and it led me nowhere but downwards. Ultimately I still believe the true nature of Reality is inapplicable for any of our human labels, including "love" and "bliss". Neutrality is the best word I can think of to describe it, but of course even that is a human label in the end.
Ah, well, mysticism + language... what can you do? Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent. 
Of course it's beyond words, for words are themselves of it and within it. However, the reason it can be nice to have it described as love-bliss is because if we said it was hate-pain, then who would want to approach it? I think that fear, is what holds most people back from really opening themselves up to the Lord, or the infinite. They prefer to stay closed off and contracted because even though it hurts a lot, it is familiar and gives them a sense of control and security.
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cbub
it


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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Icelander]
#20367871 - 08/03/14 04:58 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: IMO it's the center of self centered indulgence. But you enjoy it until you have to leave home and get a job and experience the joys of nature (survival of the fittest)
I realize this is off the point you were making. There is also a lack of body language, so I cannot know your opinion on it, but something tells me you despise egocentrism. My agenda is to offer a different perspective on it, as the purpose of this forum seems to be food for thought and since inner work is quite immune to the intellectual media. If you first distance yourself from it all to gain a neutral perspective (which I am sure you have done much more than myself or most people) you see how ridiculously insignificant humanity is. It's living on a strand of dust so small it could be easily disregarded even on a small scale, like that of a galaxy's perspective. When you put it on a scale of the universe, our existence is completely irrelevant. And then you are just one of billions of this hunk of insignificance. Even the ones that could care do not. Even your mother and your dog just care about their own personal ideas of you, which represent something to them personally. Their own mind stuff, which has little to do with that which is actually you. You are only a symbol of that which they base their own intellectual interpretation of you. That which you actually are they cannot know, they can only imagine it based on their own perception of what they are themselves. What you are left with is only yourself. You are the only one in the vast universe that knows what being you actually feels like and don't have to use imagination to construct it. All mental constructs are only one's ideas and imagination and are no more valid than a fantasy of a pool party with 2001s playboy calendar crew. They are simply not real. The fact is: You only have you, your feeling of existence, the here and now and only this perspective, which you carry with yourself through your eyes. Hence egocentrism is the only realistic view of the world you can possibly have. It is not good or bad or right or wrong, it is simply the only one available without having to imagine it. Thanks.
-------------------- It's fine.
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Deviate
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: cbub]
#20375305 - 08/04/14 09:48 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thank you for pointing that out. It reminds me of a discussion I was having with my sister a few weeks ago, she studies anthropology and as a result she thinks that just about everyone or every culture or humans in general are always being ethnocentric or anthropocentric. I was trying to explain to her, that we have no other way to be.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Deviate]
#20375736 - 08/04/14 11:21 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
deCypher said: This is what I strive for.
I have tried chasing bliss and it led me nowhere but downwards. Ultimately I still believe the true nature of Reality is inapplicable for any of our human labels, including "love" and "bliss". Neutrality is the best word I can think of to describe it, but of course even that is a human label in the end.
Ah, well, mysticism + language... what can you do? Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent. 
Of course it's beyond words, for words are themselves of it and within it. However, the reason it can be nice to have it described as love-bliss is because if we said it was hate-pain, then who would want to approach it? I think that fear, is what holds most people back from really opening themselves up to the Lord, or the infinite. They prefer to stay closed off and contracted because even though it hurts a lot, it is familiar and gives them a sense of control and security.
I don't know, I kinda feel like it's false advertising to label enlightenment as love-bliss because in the end it is nothing compared to these human emotions. Of course it's neither hate-pain, but you get the idea.
Perhaps the best way (indulge me as I try to market Enlightenment to the masses ) would be to say that with Enlightnment, negative feelings simply go away. This is more truthful than saying that one will experience 24/7 Love and Bliss while angels are singing heavenly choirs into your ear drums, certainly. And I think it's pretty honest... Enlightenment involves dispassionately recognizing the constant flood of emotions, both positive and negative, that enter our mind-stream. By recognizing them, not indulging in them, and letting them pass and go, one becomes free (or at least more free) from the chains of indulgence and restraining emotion.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Deviate
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: deCypher]
#20377655 - 08/05/14 10:37 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Perhaps we should leave it to those who are enlightened to define enlightenment to the masses.
To me, saying that negative feelings go away, well i don't see how that is any less false than saying it is love-bliss. Enlightenment doesn't mean the body becomes immune to pain or the mind loses the ability to experience sadness or negative emotion. THe way I understand it, is everything is seen from a different perspective. So while the average person might interpret pain in a very negative way, an enlightened person does not see pain as an obstacle. But the only way to truly understand it, is to be enlightened.
Another place where I think confusion may be arising is that you seem to only be describing the manifest side of enlightenment.
Quote:
Enlightenment involves dispassionately recognizing the constant flood of emotions, both positive and negative, that enter our mind-stream. By recognizing them, not indulging in them, and letting them pass and go, one becomes free (or at least more free) from the chains of indulgence and restraining emotion. 
This is all manifest phenomena. In fact to me this doesn't even sound like a description of enlightenment, it sounds like a description of dispassion, which one develops through spiritual practice. In enlightenment, one is beyond all this. The manifest remains but one becomes aware of the unmanifest, which is more real than the manifest. The unmanifest, is described as being pure, that is to say it is an undifferentiated whole. One part of the unmanifest isn't one way and another part another way, its all just the unmanifest. And it IS like this 24/7, it does not change, only the manifest changes. The unmanifest is before space, time, change etc. Words cannot really describe it, but one thing that all the sages seem to say is that it is very very very good. It is not a painful place to be.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Deviate]
#20382127 - 08/06/14 10:41 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Perhaps we should leave it to those who are enlightened to define enlightenment to the masses.
and exactly how would the unenlightened know who those "enlightened" ones are?
I've seen enough around this place to know that they don't but think they do.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Icelander]
#20383056 - 08/06/14 02:43 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Perhaps we should leave it to those who are enlightened to define enlightenment to the masses.
and exactly how would the unenlightened know who those "enlightened" ones are?
I've seen enough around this place to know that they don't but think they do. 
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Deviate
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Icelander]
#20384244 - 08/06/14 06:24 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Perhaps we should leave it to those who are enlightened to define enlightenment to the masses.
and exactly how would the unenlightened know who those "enlightened" ones are?
I've seen enough around this place to know that they don't but think they do. 
Did I say anything about knowing who the enlightened ones are? Basically waht I was saying was, as long as we feel confused and unenlightened, perhaps (and I just said perhaps, not definitely or anything) we should spend less time trying to explain and define something we really don't understand clearly yet.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Deviate]
#20384334 - 08/06/14 06:35 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well then I agree. Lets quit with this creator and god stuff while we're at it for the same reasons.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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psychawarenessorg
psychedelicawareness.org



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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: circastes]
#20390384 - 08/08/14 01:11 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Definitely, that is the truth, finding yourself, at at the end of the tunnel you'll know, then you can begin to live life.
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crkhd
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Deviate]
#20411695 - 08/13/14 04:08 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said: This is all manifest phenomena. In fact to me this doesn't even sound like a description of enlightenment, it sounds like a description of dispassion, which one develops through spiritual practice. In enlightenment, one is beyond all this. The manifest remains but one becomes aware of the unmanifest, which is more real than the manifest. The unmanifest, is described as being pure, that is to say it is an undifferentiated whole. One part of the unmanifest isn't one way and another part another way, its all just the unmanifest. And it IS like this 24/7, it does not change, only the manifest changes. The unmanifest is before space, time, change etc. Words cannot really describe it, but one thing that all the sages seem to say is that it is very very very good. It is not a painful place to be.
I had a glimpse of this thing through kundalini awakening. When kundalini reaches your crown chakra it makes the manifest disappear completely and then you behold the unmanifest directly and unobscure by anything. The experience might last for a few minutes but supposedly the maximum length is 21 days after which death is likely. It's like a reset to that pre-birth state. I'm struck by the accuracy of your description. I guess the point of it being revealed is that it changes your perception for the rest of your life such that the unmanifest comes to the foreground and the manifest goes to the background in the sense that the mind rests with the unmanifest being the center of attention generally.
It feels like resting in deep sleep while completely awake - this is first felt during the experience and then the memory or feeling of it never ceases afterwards. I'm sure the brain is transformed in some way such that something is activated and transmitting when before there wasn't, and in the day of modern medical scanning we might be able to find out what's up for once. I've spoken to quite a few people who've experienced this, also through kundalini.
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
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