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InvisibleHippie3
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Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #1862206 - 08/29/03 08:59 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

from a thread at mycotopia entitled "Bleach versus The Blob"

Quote:

By Randolph Carter (Randy_Carter) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:17 am:

and the Bleach wins it by a landslide.
A friend told me the following..

"I'd like to thank Hippie for his bleach tech. Upon birthing 11 apparently normal and healthy white PF cakes it was noticed within three days the signs of what appeared at the time to be pinning(these cakes were dunked in their jars 16 hours in distilled water as I normally do). These "pins" rapidly formed into mutant fungal Blobs..rapidly covering the surface area of the cakes. No discernable caps or stems just semi-hard slight off white encrustations that vaguely resemble sclerotia combining with each other to form a kind of matting affect. There was noted a seeping through "pores" in these blobs of clear sometimes slightly yellow liquid. There was also noted a foul bacterial odor coming from the fruiting chamber within about 4-5 days of birth. Being not inexperienced I knew this to be the same bacterial contam I had about 6 months ago(which destroyed the entire crop that time around). It seems to co-exist with the mycelium and only shows it's face after birth. It does not harm the mycelium much apparently, but infected cakes RARELY if EVER put out any normal fruits...the Blobs just take over..scrap them off they grow back..leave them they get bigger and nastier. Both the last time and this time I believe the contam was introduced through the innoculation solution itself(contaminated syringe).
I was VERY close to tossing them as soon as I realized what had/was happening...they were not after all the only thing I had going at the time. However in the back of my mind the Bleach tech came knocking. I thought what the hell..nothing really to lose in trying. I had never tried it before..never really had a need except that time 6 months ago. So..at 5 days after birth I mixed up some 200-1 part bleach water. I proceeded to remove as many of the "Blobs" as possible(harder than it sounds they are embedded in and are apart of the mycelium network and weaken it slightly under them making chunks of mycelium pull away with them if you aren't carefull) and gave them a 24 hour bleach dunk. I did not even give them a wash with normal water before I placed them back in the chamber. They smelled quite strongly of bleach. Nothing happened for about 2 days..they looked quite pitifull actually...then to my pleasant suprise they began fluffing back up.The bleach smell was gone by day 3 leaving a normal shroomy smell. By the 4th day there were new NORMAL pins forming. By day 6-7 I had fully normal baby mushrooms..and this next bit suprised me even more. I noticed a few of the "blobs" I had missed on the cakes were morphing (back)into NORMAL pins/baby mushrooms. A few of these have formed mutant mushrooms shaped strange, but otherwise totally healthy looking. The new pins are forming totally normal mushrooms. The Blob has not reappeared on any of the cakes nor has the foul bacterial smell. This seems to be THE way to rid oneself of this particular contam without sacrificing a crop.
I have seen others complain about this contam from time to time with little or no response on how to deal with it(besides tossing them)..well there it is.. Bleach Dunk. Thanks for your experimentation Hippie.
P.S. Even though Bleach Dunk has healed these cakes...I do not know about eating the fruits from them. The cakes were after all contaminated with an unknown bacteria that put off a FOUL odor. The bacteria seem dead but that doesn't mean they haven't possibly left some toxins in the mix. I have myself not eaten any of them..don't know if I will even. Proceed with caution





btw, a slight clarifaction to set the record straight and give credit which is long over due.
in regards to my dunk tek, a shroomerite called 'opi' [aka TheJafF] was the fellow who initially suggested that i toss my cakes in a 5 gallon bucket to soak. while i did not follow his somewhat distainful advice [i got the impression he didn't much care for cakes], he does deserve some credit for his suggestion as it directly led to the dunk tek which so many use today.


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Admin @ mycotopia.net
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InvisibleFick_Duck
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2032446 - 10/22/03 12:58 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I was gonna link this to the thread asking if tap water was bad to use, but ive been wondering lately about this thread and what happened to this tek, as I havent heard of it for years.

So Im bumpin it, cause theres tons of great info in this thread.


--------------------
"To know life you must fuck it in the liver." -Dr. Frankenstein, Andy Warhols Frankenstein

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Offlineragadinks
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Fick_Duck]
    #2033553 - 10/22/03 06:20 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Has anybody tried to add bleach to a liquid inoculation solution ( honey tek ? ) in order to keep contamination off ?


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-> Errors Are A Great Source Of Knowledge <-
-> It Is Not Important WHO Is Right But WHAT Is Right <-

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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: ragadinks]
    #2033615 - 10/22/03 06:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Not with mushroom spores but that technique is used in the purification of certain pathogenic oocysts (which are a lot like spores) so I don't see why it's not possible....

--
Micro


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: micro]
    #2035053 - 10/23/03 02:18 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Hmmm, would be interesting. Till now I have only seen them using peroxide.


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-> Errors Are A Great Source Of Knowledge <-
-> It Is Not Important WHO Is Right But WHAT Is Right <-

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Offlineetard
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: ragadinks]
    #2035517 - 10/23/03 08:29 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

WAit, does anyone think that this would at all help with trich or cobweb?


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: etard]
    #2035861 - 10/23/03 11:08 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

  WAit, does anyone think that this would at all help with trich or cobweb?
Sorry, for my ignorance, but what is "trich" and what is "cobweb" ?
Have to admit I am a newbie  :crazy:

ragadinks 


--------------------
-> Errors Are A Great Source Of Knowledge <-
-> It Is Not Important WHO Is Right But WHAT Is Right <-

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OfflineElemicin
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Registered: 06/27/03
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very bad. idea... [Re: ragadinks]
    #2035894 - 10/23/03 11:16 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

DO NOT USE BLEACH
I can't believe you people are considering using it.
What makes u think its not going to kill the mycelia?
chlorine is not very friendly when it comes to organic matter.

Neither is it going to be safe for you to consume the mushrooms.
shit, even a sodium bromide solution or a potassium iodide solution will be safer.....


stick with H2O2, if u must get a more concentrated solution.

if u want a more concentrated solution of h2o2 freeze your 3% bottle, you will have h2o2 on the top in a more concentrated percentage, this could be diluted a bit.

The chloride is not going to go away, its going to stay in the mushroom matter and stay in your shrooms, it may chlorinate some of it, but it will stay.

H2O2 on the other hand does not have any byproducts which stay, you will get oxidized product, but it will be by oxygen and not by chloride, as for by products you all know O2 and H2O

Please do not use this method, the amount of chlorine present may be small but oxidizing agents are not good for the organic body.




Edited by Elemicin (10/23/03 11:25 AM)

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Invisiblemicro
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Elemicin]
    #2035935 - 10/23/03 11:30 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Elemicin said:
Neither is it going to be safe for you to consume the mushrooms.
This is the dumbest idea i've ever heard.

Whats next ? Sodium Bromide...oh oooh how about sodium floride, that will bleach your mushrooms good and get rid of contaminents.





Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought we were talking about a very dilute solution of bleach in with the spores. That would not be nearly enough to possibly hurt someone; it won't be nearly as much as misting with bleachwater, such as people *already do.* Bleach is not toxic in really low concentrations like that.

I also don't think it's a bad idea -- we sell purified oocysts, for one thing, in a partial bleach solution (I think like 2 or 3% from the bottle, but I can check tomorrow if you want) and none of our customers seem to mind. Yeah -- there's H2O2, and it works, but that doesn't mean everything else doesn't.

--
Micro


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OfflineElemicin
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: micro]
    #2037999 - 10/23/03 09:14 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I personally see no reason in the use of a chlorinated oxidizer when more people friendly and environment friendly alternatives exist.

As for bleaches toxidity in those concentration, yes they are minimal,
what advantages does sodium hypochlorite have over other friendlier oxidants?

"there's H2O2, and it works, but that doesn't mean everything else doesn't."

Yes NaBr NaF, NaI would also work as oxidizing agent. I am not denying the fact that these other salts make good agents to kill microorganisms.

Minute I2 and Br2 solutions can also be used and they are also "non toxic" at lower levels.


as for toxidity.....

PRODUCT TOXICITY

Household Bleach 4 ppm
Hydrogen Peroxide (3%) 1675 ppm




Edited by Elemicin (10/23/03 09:21 PM)

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Offlineetard
etheonogenesis

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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: micro]
    #2038380 - 10/23/03 10:49 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

trich is the green stuff, trichoderma; and cobweb is wispy and looks like a spiderweb.


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.oOo. Selling your babies for my bandwidth since 1994 .oOo.

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Offlineragadinks
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: etard]
    #2038977 - 10/24/03 02:26 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks ...


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-> Errors Are A Great Source Of Knowledge <-
-> It Is Not Important WHO Is Right But WHAT Is Right <-

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Invisiblemicro
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Elemicin]
    #2039318 - 10/24/03 11:27 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Elemicin said:
I personally see no reason in the use of a chlorinated oxidizer when more people friendly and environment friendly alternatives exist.




Elemicin -- bleach used to break down into sodium chlorate (a weed killer) because of metallic impurities in it, but because of better processing techniques it now *only breaks down into sodium chloride." What's not environmentally friendly?

Quote:

as for toxidity.....

PRODUCT TOXICITY

Household Bleach 4 ppm
Hydrogen Peroxide (3%) 1675 ppm




What are you talking about? The LD50 (in rats) for PURE sodium hypochlorite FROM INGESTION is 8.9 g/Kg in rats (figure a person at 75 kilos or so,) according to the MSDS. This would be a hell of a lot more than 4 ppm in a 3% concentration. Do you have references for this?

--
Micro


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OfflineElemicin
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: micro]
    #2041971 - 10/25/03 01:15 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

toxicidity != LD50

I see though that the NaClO(-) reaction, does indeed give u chloride salt.

I stand corrected.
:smile:
Interesting though
take a look at this....

NaOCl  + H20 + hydrocarbon ---> oxidized hydrocarbon + H2O + NaCL
NaCl + H2O + NaOCl <----> NaOH + Cl2(g) equilibrium reaction.

(keep in mind...)
NaOCl + H2O  &#8596; HOCl + Na+ + OH
(occurs as well)

we do have other by products though :smile:
Cl2 will chlorinate the organic matter, the HOCl will strip a hydrogen  and then you will have a chlorinated product.









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Offlineragadinks
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Elemicin]
    #2042073 - 10/25/03 02:08 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)



At what side will the reaction be at room temperature ?


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-> It Is Not Important WHO Is Right But WHAT Is Right <-

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InvisibleHanky
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: ragadinks]
    #2043087 - 10/25/03 10:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

has anyone ever tried using oxygen bleach (sodium percarbonate)?


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]



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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Hanky]
    #2125739 - 11/20/03 06:12 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

elemicin knows not of which he speaks.
this is a proven, highly effective tek
and if anyone wants more details come
visit our archives at mycotopia where we
have an entire section devoted to bleach use.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Hippie3]
    #2125741 - 11/20/03 06:14 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

What makes u think its not going to kill the mycelia?
well, because we tested it.
did you think we just made this all up ?


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OfflineElemicin
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I'm sure it works well.... [Re: Hippie3]
    #2127222 - 11/21/03 11:24 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I'm sure it works well, I don't deny the oxidizing power of the chemical, I do know my chemistry, and I do know chlorine radicals are formed in the oxidation process.  Will be enough chlorine to affect the growth of the overall mushrooms can cause you to become ill??

probably not, but people should be informed of what is occuring. You will have minor chlorinated some (very minor due to concentration) chlorinated product.

Btw hippie, it is going to kill some of the mycelia.... oxidation is oxidiation..just like H2O2 kills mycelia :wink: and contaminants.... or even ozonated water.


I do retract my statement of NOT using it, when first reading the thread i was underimpression that a MUCH larger amount of bleach was going to be used.





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OfflineRoseM
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Re: I'm sure it works well.... [Re: Elemicin]
    #2127249 - 11/21/03 11:35 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

The tek worked for my friend, Don Quixote.

He was amazed at how quickly the odor changed from bleach to mycelia.


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