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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Posts: 27,301
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Strumpling]
    #2031285 - 10/22/03 12:48 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I'd just like to point out that the ancients WERE able to predict the weather, just not with quite the accuracy of the instruments we have today. They could tell by the cricket chirps, the clouds in the sky, the direction of the wind, etc. People today don't give the ancients nearly enough credit.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2031297 - 10/22/03 12:53 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"There is also a soul, or astral body which exists in the same space as the physical form. This is well documented by those who have has out of body experiences."

An experience is not evidence. People believe and feel a lot of very "real" things, some people even feel and believe things that contradict the feelings and beliefs of others.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2031305 - 10/22/03 12:56 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"People today don't give the ancients nearly enough credit."

This dodges my point... There was much more "randomness" involved in the weather back then than there is now, due to further studies and advances.

ha of course "the ancients" were fuckin brilliant, just as smart as us, but they didn't have the collaborative abilities we do today, and extra years of data-gathering to worm through.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2031310 - 10/22/03 12:58 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

same input, into the same machine, same output. i don't believe that randomness exists.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2031359 - 10/22/03 01:39 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So in theory, "Everything" is predictable?


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineFrog
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Seuss]
    #2031425 - 10/22/03 02:18 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Hey, all. I'm new. I tried to post a "newbie" thread, but it weren't happening tonight, according to the internet gods.

I perused your threads, posts, etc. I was directed here by a "pot head". I'm not a pot head. Pot makes me paranoid. Do you guys even call it "pot" any more?

Anyways, you all are so phuckin' entertaining, and so I thought I would at least say "hi" here, and start posting in comment to some of the posts I read, later.

Seriously, I've been looking for a forum where my mind can be entertained. Little did I know that I would find that entertainment on a site like this.

Smiles now, hugs later, when I get to know y'all.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Frog]
    #2031493 - 10/22/03 02:56 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Hello there.

I like your signature.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Strumpling]
    #2031497 - 10/22/03 02:59 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"So in theory, "Everything" is predictable? "

Well, not really. It would be impossible to calculate all of reality without being able to somehow model it separate of itself. ie. a computer simulation, or on paper...

Sorry if that isn't very clear, I'm hardly awake.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Strumpling]
    #2031563 - 10/22/03 03:45 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

> So in theory, "Everything" is predictable?

In theory yes, but it will never be possible to predict everything. To predict everything you need a super computer that exists in an other dimension and has no influence in our universe. A super computer in our universe has influence in our universe and it will never be able to predict its own predictions. All information about all matter and energy(position, velocity, mass, etc.) in our universe should be stored in a super computer(which exists of matter). All information about all matter and energy can never be stored in matter and energy(unless we use winzip, but I'm not sure about that).

i'm not talking psychology. it's far more fundamental than that. i mean the actual, physical events inside the brain.

ditch the psychology and get down to the microscopic...

Important point in this discussion. It requires very abstract thinking to understand this. 

> From what I understand, if something is random that means it is unable to be predicted.

True randomness is something that is not caused by something. True randomness doesn't exist in classical physics. But in quantum physics, as far as I know, true randomness does exist. Some say that there are hidden variables in quantum physics(they don't believe in this true randomness), but the quantum theory states that true randomness does exist. The strange thing is that while true randomness exists in quantum physics, classical physics is still non-random(I don't get it, this is really weird shit :smile:). Quantum physics is impossible to understand for me, and I think for most of us. But they have some interesting theories about randomness and determinism.....  Do a google search on quantum, randomness, determinsm, etc if you want some :eek: 

http://dogma.free.fr/txt/JB-Determinism.pdf

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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2031647 - 10/22/03 05:44 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

> same input, into the same machine, same output. i don't
> believe that randomness exists

I like to think that too, but I'm not quite sure.

Pre 20th century physics is neat and deterministic, but this was before the discovery of quantum mechanics. If you were to believe in quantum physics (like most physicists do), then there is at least a randomness in that we can't ever determine anything outside of probabilities. This still gives essentially deterministic systems though, they just appear random to us for all practical purposes.

Wether there exists true randomness, or even what true randomness actually is, is so far an unsolved question in physics.

I'm not sure this has any bearing on free will though. The way I see it, is that if you can show that there are some things that are non-deterministic, then you could argue that there is "something" that affects these random outcomes, and that something is the source of our free will.

However, we have absolutely no proof that there is "somthing", a soul or whatever you want to call it, that exists outside our physical world which can affect our physical reality. In my opinion, any such "something" is just pure speculation, and anecdotal evidence like "my friend saw a ghost, so there is a spirit world and a soul" is just not very interesting.

To sum up; free will would be kinda cool, but I don't think that's how things work. We're just survival containers for our genes that have evolved far enough to be aware of our world and ourselves. The world is just a "movie" unfolding before our eyes, so you might as well kick back and relax.

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2031913 - 10/22/03 09:43 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"I like your signature. "

TY, Phluck. BTW: Our names have something in common!

(Okay, I'll stop trampling the thread with inconsequentials.)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineLightningfractal
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2031969 - 10/22/03 10:05 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

hi there frog, welcome! *passes joint to frog*

I don't have any links about astral body or souls. I read some books a long time ago where people described their experiences. I don't think it matters anyway, because it can and will be argued that these people's experiences could have been illusionary. More importantly is that the universe DOES follow an order, but this is not the same order that our conciousness now percieves. Just as the "super computer" could not predict it's own predictions, neither can we percieve the vibe of the universe, because we exist as a part of it.

Quote:

To sum up; free will would be kinda cool, but I don't think that's how things work. We're just survival containers for our genes that have evolved far enough to be aware of our world and ourselves. The world is just a "movie" unfolding before our eyes, so you might as well kick back and relax.





Like I stated in one of my earlier posts, if we all were to "kick back and relax" none of us would have jobs, money, girlfriends, or anything else we want. We would all become bums. Of course, the occasional one of us would be struck in the head with a briefcase of money falling from the sky, but that would not be the norm at all.

If I was meant to go to work today, I'll find myself there, therefore I'll stay in bed.

Or a doctor might say "It was God's will that this person was to die, therefore my accidentally injecting him with 500 mg of valium is not really to blame here."

Or " Your honor, it was my pre-determined destiny to rape and kill those children, I am not responsible for it, because it was MEANT to happen."

Do you see why this whole idea of predestiny is hogwash now?


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2032041 - 10/22/03 10:32 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

yes. so far no one has been able to prove the existence of true randomness, or show how even if it did exist, it would give rise to free will.

i'll restate something i said in an earlier thead.

of the three:

1. fundamental order in the universe
2. Materialism
3. Free Will

at least one cannot be true\exist.

a rejection of #3 seems more rationally grounded to me than a rejection of 1 or 2, so that's that's the one i'm thinking is false.

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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2032074 - 10/22/03 10:48 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

it's a different kind of "kick back in relax".. it is 'non-action'... acting without acting.

deep down, you've got no more control over the activities of your brain than you do over the activities of your heart or digestive system.

... unless of course, there is such a thing as a soul, or higher intelligence, or what have you... a notion i personally do not find to be believable.

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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2032079 - 10/22/03 10:50 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

> Do you see why this whole idea of predestiny is hogwash now?

First of all, destiny is a laden word. It implies meaning, and when I say that I don't think we have free will, I'm not saying that there is any specific meaning in what happens.

Secondly, because bad stuff happens or people do bad things, there must be free will? That sounds like the essence of christianity. There must be free will so that people can choose not to sin. Trying to explain things by starting out with a need that arises out of thin air (like the bible) is generally a bad way to explain or understand anything.

And yes, the legal system, like religion, also requires there to be free will to make any sense. That's still not proof of a free will though.

I know it may be an unpleasant thought that we have no power over our lives, but based on what we observe in nature and logical construction of rules based on those observations, for us to have free will there must be something extraordinary with our brains. Something that's not observed anywhere else in nature. If you want it to be true that we have free will, then you can construct things like little elves in our heads, or souls or whatever, but if you want to be logical about it, you choose the explanation that requires the least amount of conjecture.

I'm not saying that we know everything, and that we understand nature perfectly, but given our present understanding of it (one which happens to work out very well for us, and which can explain a great deal of what we observe), the conclusion that we have no free will is easily the most obvious one. It doesn't require you to dream up magic particles that no one has ever observed, or an almighty deity that refuses to reveal itself.

But if anybody can present a good argument as to why we have free will (besides 'it has to be that way, because it just has to'), then I'm open for anything.

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Anonymous

Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: ]
    #2032221 - 10/22/03 11:46 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

if free will does not exist that by no means implies that murderers, rapists, or other criminals should not be punished for their actions. determinism is defined as "The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs." so acts of violence or other criminal acts, while they may be a result of some sort of strife experienced in life, still require punishment/consequences. to me this seems very similar to the nature/nurture debate. wether our actions are a result of our own free will or the environment we've experienced throughout life. it also seems to me that there are various levels of determinism. extreme determinists break it down to chemistry and physics while to others its a matter of psychology. i suppose thats just a matter of how far you look into it though. thinking about this shit gives me a headache because there are so many things that could really go either way and that simply depend on point of view. this discussion could continue on for years and never be 'solved', although that just seems to be the nature of philosophy.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2032262 - 10/22/03 11:57 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

"If I was meant to go to work today, I'll find myself there, therefore I'll stay in bed."

That's obviously not how it works. Whatever you do, or decide to do is controlled by the chemistry in your brain. You are only "meant" to do what you do.

If you stay in bed all day, then you will stay in bed all day.

You can't say, I'll just do X instead of Y because Z will happen either way. There is no "either way", there is only what you do. Your decisions are still a factor in what happens next, even if they are also the result of previous happenings.

"Or " Your honor, it was my pre-determined destiny to rape and kill those children, I am not responsible for it, because it was MEANT to happen."

Do you see why this whole idea of predestiny is hogwash now? "

That's not actually a logical argument against determinism. That's just your own displeasure at the idea that a criminal doesn't actually have control over his actions. Also, that would be a complete bullshit excuse in court.

Criminals still make decisions in their own minds, and by influencing their decision, that can be changed. Of course, they were going to be changed for sure...

With determinism, all of the factors that lead up to a crime are the same. Someone might just be born a jerk, and then they were raised by shitty parents who broke laws are hurt others all the time, and then one day the guy gets really pissed off while he happens to have a knife in his hand and he stabs somebody. Sending to jail sets and example, it punishes him, and is meant to rehabilitate him.

How about a two year old who draws all over the walls even after being told not to, that's a little easier to accept as an act that was out of control.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Annom]
    #2032418 - 10/22/03 12:49 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I've seen some people who ask for proof for my/our beliefs:

First of all, this is Philosophy... Second:

To proof something we need, in general, axioms(A self-evident principle or one that is accepted as true without proof as the basis for argument; a postulate). We can proof a thesis with these axioms and earlier proven theses. An example of an axiom is that 2 parallel lines will never cross. With this axiom we can proof other things(can't name one right know). But with mathematics it is possible to proof that 2 parallel lines do cross a few times. According that mathematics the axiom is incorrect, but in normal mathematics it is a useful and "correct" axiom.

To proof determinism we also need axioms. I'm happy someone already wrote these axioms because it's pretty hard to write them myself  :smile:. Here are the axioms of determinism, if these axioms are "correct"(or you believe in them) the whole determinism can be proven:

AXIOMS

The processes of the scientific method are the most reliable and acceptable methods for discovering and clarifying the truths of man's existence. Established religions deal with the same issues regarding true human nature and the ideal life as we do but tend to eschew scientific methodology, relying instead on myths, visions, folklore, ?miracles? etc. They are best regarded as primitive psychologies.

Everything in nature is caused; this is the definition of Total Determinism.

All of humanity?s thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are caused (forced) by one or more determinants. (The concept of ?free will? is so elusive it can?t even be defined, except to mean without cause, chaotic.)

Beliefs, especially those which are emotionally loaded, are powerful determinants of thoughts, feelings and behaviors. ?We are what we believe.?

Man's need for the acceptance and love of his fellows is a powerful determinant of his thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.

The pursuit of happiness, as stated in The Declaration of Independence, is the ?purpose? of life.

There is no mind independent of the body nor body independent of the mind; there is only an integrated organism. This concept is known as the Psychosomatic Principle.

All humans are born innocent, and are gentle in nature. Thus, we reject all notions that children are born vicious or in "Sin".

source: http://www.determinism.com/axioms.shtml

If you believe in these axioms, determinism can be proven. If you don't, nobody can proof determinism.  :smirk: 

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Annom]
    #2032499 - 10/22/03 01:13 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Some of those don't necessarily have anything to do with determinism.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
    #2032529 - 10/22/03 01:23 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

mmm... agreed...

I was thinking about the "how to proof it" question and then I thought about "what is proof" and then I found those axioms and then I.....  :smile: :nut:

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