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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: circastes]
    #20325087 - 07/25/14 03:17 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Nope, disagree entirely.

Our true "nature" isn't any kind of emotion.  Happiness is an emotion, bliss is an emotion, so is pain and so is suffering.

We are human beings and we experience these emotions when we are feeling good, or when we are feeling bad.  There is no intrinsic emotion to be felt without any initial prompting sensation.


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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: cez]
    #20327740 - 07/25/14 04:46 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
Peace is the intrinsic state of being for all animals IMO.




How did you arrive at this conclusion?  Nature is a constant state of warfare; organisms eating each other, stealing each other's mates, competing for territory and food, etcetera etc.  Animals are lucky if they can feel peaceful.


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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: cez]
    #20327904 - 07/25/14 05:19 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Well, their mental state is certainly different from humans... they lack our specific level of self-awareness.  Consequently they cannot ruminate on their inevitable mortality, they cannot suffer from death anxiety, they cannot be tortured by guilt for past actions or by worry for future ones, and they are not bothered by any questions of right or wrong.

That is certainly a more peaceful mind-state than ours, I'll grant you, but in day-to-day life they are constantly occupied with the bare needs of survival: finding food, protecting their own, finding a mate, and making sure they live another a day.  That, to me, is not peace, even if they lack the capacity to deem it so.


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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Deviate]
    #20345469 - 07/29/14 04:21 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
To you, but we are not talking about you. We are talking about animals. One thing you might not be taking into account is that finding food, finding a mate, mating, raising offspring , etc can be FUN. How do you know that animals aren't having fun when they do those things?

Also I would like to ask what is peace to you? If attending to survival needs and peace cannot co-exist for you, then what kind of peace do you experience? A peace which ends the moment you must find food or find a mate, is not a very good peace imo.  It seems almost as if from your point of view, one cannot simultaneously be peaceful and yet also engaged in life. Why do you feel this way? It is my experience that the more mental peace I have, the more I am able to engage in life and without the peace being disturbed because one starts to notice that life itself is valuable.




My household pets (two cats) are far more peaceful than the wild, stray, mangy cats I observe outdoors.  My cats don't have to worry about finding food.  They don't have to worry about encroaching on another stray cat's territory.  They don't have to worry about being raped by some stray tomcat just because he liked the scent of their pheromones.

My household pets experience far more peace than any wild animal does.  Also, look up Maslow's hierarchy of needs.  Mere survival is on the bottom of the list.  No one is capable of being peaceful while constantly having to worry about finding food and shelter.  It is only after satisfying the most basic needs that one is able to even think about peace, let alone be peaceful.


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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Deviate]
    #20345475 - 07/29/14 04:26 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Nope, disagree entirely.

Our true "nature" isn't any kind of emotion.  Happiness is an emotion, bliss is an emotion, so is pain and so is suffering.

We are human beings and we experience these emotions when we are feeling good, or when we are feeling bad.  There is no intrinsic emotion to be felt without any initial prompting sensation.




So what is there, then? I say, consider your sleep. When in deep sleep you are not feeling emotions. And yet viritually everyone associates this state of deep sleep with peace. People say "I slept happily" not "I slept neutrally" and people covet sleep, rather than treat it as something neutral.

Now I am going to remind you that this the spirituality and mycisticm forum. If you are postin' here you should be at least a little familiar with what spiritual people and mystics say. What do they say? Well, they pretty muych all say that the natural state, is peace or unconditional love, not neutrality. I should add that this is consistent with my experience. Emotions come and go but existence itself does not come and go, it remain always existing. If we isolate this sense of "I am" and allow it to be by itself, not hooked onto to circumstances constantly, what do we find? I find that it seems naturally peaceful and then it is when I become involved in identifications, that is when the peace becomes disturbed. Now, you may have a different experience. It may be that when you remain with the sense of amness, you experience blankness or ntruality. This is perfectly normal in fact, and this is also my own experience. But what I learned from my spiritual teachers was that this happens when one is a beginner and if you can make it through this stage, then what happens next is very beautiful. You see, as one inquires into hi or her true nature, the mind throws everything it can at you in order to make you stop, give up or deciee it ain't worth it. hence, the mind will attempt to convince you the natural state is just a neutrial boring state so that you dont go for it no more.




Seems like you are falling into the "bliss trap".  Read further into Eastern/Buddhist studies of meditation and they will all tell you that feeling sensations of bliss is a natural step on the way to enlightenment.  However, to proceed further one must not give into these feelings and become entrapped by them, because true enlightenment is not an emotion--it simply is.  To get sucked into these feelings of euphoria and "true happiness" is to miss the point, because beyond a certain level of spiritual awakening, none of that really matters.  Everything just simply... is.

Quote:

Aaahhh... The pursuit of happiness. It is so elusive, yes? Here in America we even have the right to pursue it. The pursuit of happiness isn't a right in every country, you know. So consider yourself one of the privileged on the planet, even if you don't have much money or material things. You are still among the privileged in the world because you at least have the opportunity to be in a moment such as this, reading and pondering meaning.

Chasing bliss is a useful thing in the beginning of the spiritual search. It is usually what entices the spiritual seeker to "go on the path" in the first place. The possibility that happiness can be found encourages the personality to look away from illusion. If the personality is satisfied and happy in illusion, there is no reason for it to look elsewhere for anything. This is why the need to chase bliss can be useful in the beginning, for it alerts you to the idea that there is "something else" in life.

Chasing bliss is what started the path for everyone, in some way or another. Didn't you start your spiritual search because you were disappointed with your life for some reason and wanted something you didn't have? Let's be honest. There was not enough love, not enough security, not enough money, not enough friends, not enough power, not enough happiness, not enough something, right?

There is something astray, however, when the spiritual seeker focuses too intently on the pursuit of happiness--the dreadful "chasing bliss" trap. The pursuit of happiness isn't recognized as a trap. This is where chasing bliss is not useful on the spiritual path and serves rather as a distraction. What's worse is that you actually never get the prize! Ah, this is the biggest kicker, the biggest brain twister. And such a let down! Many a spiritual path has been abandoned because of this terrible let down when the seeker finally realizes there is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow called happiness.

This is a terrible moment (or it could be debated that it is a wonderful moment) on the spiritual path. This is often called the dark night of the soul. This is when the personality realizes it has lost the chasing-bliss-game and can never win, no matter what it does. This is when you realize that all strategies of the personality, all the knowledge gathered, all the work you have done on yourself, is still not going to save you from fear. It is not going to give you 24/7 bliss or even simple human contentment.

This is the cusp of enlightenment. At this time on the spiritual path, the search is almost over. All escape routes from fear have been exhausted and there is no way out. This is the moment for the breakthrough. This is the moment of surrender, of giving up. This is when enlightenment is in your grasp. This is when the personality gives up and stops trying to get anything.
If the spiritual seeker doesn't make it through this initial let-down about how the spiritual path has betrayed the personality, the human psychology might be seriously dam-aged until truth is once again pondered. Disappointment in God, or bitterness about the fact that the spiritual path never panned out, is a terrible "spiritual poison" to live with.

Some people get stuck here, right on the cusp of enlightenment. This is because the last step, surrender of the personality, is not taken. This is truly the only step necessary after the initial turn of attention away from the illusion of "my life," yet it is the hardest. Everything else, even on the spiritual path up to this point, has been a strategy of the personality to get what it wants. Surrender of all strategies is the end of the spiritual path, the conclusion of the search. For all seekers, this is the last and most difficult hurdle to cross no matter how long or short a time has been spent strategizing to attain enlightenment. To let go of what the personality wants, mainly happiness, is a big stretch, a quantum leap, into the unknown.

Many techniques have been taught on improving the personality or reality, like affirmations and visualizations. Many strategies for enlightenment have been given, like sitting in the lotus position for twenty years. These teachings assert that happiness will be found when the personality is perfected, all social skills are attained, all flaws are smoothed over, the physical body is detoxified and functioning, and manifesting skills are useable. This is the dreadful chasing-bliss-trap on the spiritual path that most seekers get caught in it for an entire lifetime.
When this moment of surrender and giving up is embraced, true enlightenment is possible. The seeker then passes into the consciousness beyond illusion. If this moment is surrendered to and the seeker drops into it, enlightenment is finally realized and the personality viewpoint is surpassed.
It is not about building the personality or having the power to manipulate physical reality. It is all about dismantling the illusion, not building the illusion. Who you really are is already perfect and at ease with all that is in existence. It is the illusion that must be dismantled in order to reach perfection. This does not mean perfection of the personality or situations in life. It is perfection that is already here in you, the container for all that is happening. This container is called conscious-ness. Everything else, every experience from human bliss to human terror, is but a product of this consciousness.

Once you realize who you are you can see through the illusion as if it is air, all done with mirrors and light. You can see your life from God's viewpoint for you are that viewpoint. This perspective is an amazing place to experience life from, for it is like being in a lucid dream that is magically here in the middle of the vast arena of eternal consciousness. Your eternal perspective of this life is a place where God is looking at itself. If you realize that you are this eternal awareness experiencing itself in various ways, like having a lifetime on Earth, you are enlightened, which means "to be in knowledge of."

This does not mean that the personality colored Earth life is going to be full of human bliss all the time. It does mean, however, that you are at ease in the eternal self, which never dies and can never be harmed by any experience, not even the ones the personality is having on earth. You can live as this eternal self because you are not the personality. You can live knowing the secret of life on earth: that it is all just a thought in the mind of God. You are privy to the knowledge that even the unpleasant experiences in life cannot harm you, that you long outlive your personality with all its motives, drives, accomplishments and strategies.

Living from this perspective takes away the fear that the personality constantly lives in and is also trying to avoid. This is the place of no fear, if it could even be called a place. How can there be fear if harm and annihilation are impossible for eternal consciousness?
The fulfillment you seek on the spiritual path is within you. Your true identity needs no fulfillment and has no need to chase after bliss, a fleeting emotion at best. You are that which is already whole. You are that which contains bliss, among other emotions, each appearing and disappearing in the attention of consciousness. You cannot get or attain that which is already in you. It is only attention that shifts. The bliss did not go away from you. It is still there.
Eternal self, which you are, just wants to dream and experience itself. It doesn't care if all those dreams and experiences are pleasant or unpleasant, for it knows what is behind the illusion: God's consciousness dreaming. It also knows that it is dreaming an illusion. You are that consciousness, formless and without change.

Be this in daily human life, and your human life will have a different flavor. There is a reward for living life with eternal perspective, even though the reward is not necessarily what the personality wanted in the first place when it started the spiritual search. The reward will not be 24/7 bliss. Nope, not going to get that. The reward might not be perfection of the personality, or having everyone love and adore you. It might not mean that you have financial wealth and the ability to manipulate reality in your favor with metaphysical mind powers. What it does mean is that your life will arrange itself to reflect that you live as eternal consciousness, rather than the human personality.

What that reflection will be for you as an individual, you can only know when you have dismantled the personality and realize who you really are. It is a mystery until then, and it is a different picture for everyone. What can be guaranteed, however, is that it will be a better reflection than the personality can ever create with all it's strategies, flaws, shortcomings, misinterpretations, mind tricks and pitfalls. The personality chases bliss and avoids fear at all costs, focused on getting fulfillment from the illusion. Only when the personality strategies are dropped, only then will you find the truth of who you are, independent of a personality on Earth.
Try walking through your daily life as eternal conscious-ness rather than the human self. Pretend that you are having a lucid dream, that you are actually formless consciousness sleeping somewhere outside of this universe, dreaming. Play with this for just a few moments per day if you find it difficult not to slip back into the personality self. You might be on automatic programming for a while until realizing yourself as eternal consciousness becomes a habit and you no longer have to remember to hold attention this way. Override the perspective you have as a human whenever you can, as you think of it.

Looking at life as eternal self, rather than your human perspective, is a good habit to develop. This is where joy and happiness have been hiding, here in the eternal self. Look at whatever you are experiencing from this new perspective and see if anything is different. Even ordinary experiences can be used as vehicles for exercising this eternal consciousness perspective. As you eat your dinner notice what the tone of your experience is when you take a bite as a human. Then notice the tone of your experience as your take a bite as eternal being. Investigate this, just for curiosity's sake. You don't even have to believe these words. You can still investigate, discover for yourself and see if something is different.

You will slip back into the personality perspective, even after you have discovered your true identity. You might as well assume that you will slip back within a week, maybe a day or two, an hour or even another few minutes from now. Don't worry about this. There is no contest to see how long you constantly maintain your eternal perspective. Now you know the secret of who you are, your true identity, and you can awake again whenever you realize that you have fallen back to sleep. You can return instantly to enlightenment, to your true identity as dreaming eternal consciousness.
Human bliss will no longer be the goal. Human happiness, whatever that means to you, will no longer be the elusive pot of goal at the end of the rainbow. The chase for bliss will be abandoned. Human emotions will remain passing moments, which continue to come and go in your human life. Instead, you will find that which transcends any human emotion. It is the bliss of knowing who you are, knowing that you cannot be harmed, even if you lose your car, lose your friends, your lover, lose your house or even your life. This is where you will find the no-fear, peace and ease that you have been looking for in your chase for bliss and the pursuit of human happiness. Eternal self is already happy.

May you find the truth of who you are in this coming year of 2004. This might be the first year of living life as your eternal self rather than your human self. This is a radical invitation, and will have powerful effects on your life. If you develop the habit to live as eternal self which cannot be harmed by life on earth, your life will be different by the end of the year, if not sooner. You don't have to say one affirmation or energize one visualization! Physical reality is an automatic reflection machine. It will respond to your consciousness independently of your personality's strategies. No mind tricks needed! Find out what your reflection looks like in physical reality when you live your life as God's eternal consciousness rather than the human personality. It will be a beautiful thing indeed, and the chase for "something" will be over. Then you will live in the eternal ease that transcends all versions of happiness, including bliss. When you as a human experience bliss, the true identity of yourself has surfaced. It is in the very nature of your eternal self. Now you know where to find true bliss. It is in giving up all strategies for attaining human bliss.




http://www.peopleandpossibilities.com/chasingbliss.html

Quote:

Deviate said:
So what is there, then? I say, consider your sleep. When in deep sleep you are not feeling emotions. And yet viritually everyone associates this state of deep sleep with peace. People say "I slept happily" not "I slept neutrally" and people covet sleep, rather than treat it as something neutral.




Just to address this, people generally tend to covet [deep] sleep because the lack of experience contained therein is preferable to the negativity they are exposed to throughout their day-to-day existence, not because the lack of experience was a positively felt emotion (since it, by definition, isn't felt at all).


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Deviate]
    #20348510 - 07/29/14 07:24 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
My household pets (two cats) are far more peaceful than the wild, stray, mangy cats I observe outdoors.  My cats don't have to worry about finding food.  They don't have to worry about encroaching on another stray cat's territory.  They don't have to worry about being raped by some stray tomcat just because he liked the scent of their pheromones.

My household pets experience far more peace than any wild animal does.  Also, look up Maslow's hierarchy of needs.  Mere survival is on the bottom of the list.




Thats nice for your pets but not all animals are happy in captivity. Many animals prefer to live in the wild, even if it is more dangerous.




If you don't understand how a fat, happy indoor cat who never has to worry about being fed, finding water, attacked by other animals, or being hit by a car isn't generally more peaceful than a stray cat struggling to survive in the city, I don't know what to tell ya dude.  Of course certain animals will be happier if they have a larger territory to roam, but that in turn provides risks like predators, lack of food source, etcetera etc.

Quote:

Deviate said:
You see, just because you might not know where your next meal is coming from, that doesn't mean you have to let it upset you and make you unhappy. It is possible to live in the kind of faith where you learn to trust that things will be ok, even if they are painful or difficult at times. In my own experience, the more I learn to trust life and my Heavenly Father, the better I am able to deal with hardship without falling into despair and despondency.




I don't mean to say it is necessarily impossible to feel peaceful when your basic survival needs aren't being met; my point is that it's much harder to do so.  Again, look up Maslow's theory of needs and the concept of self-actualization:



The best way to become a fully self-actualized (aka peaceful) person is to first focus on your survival needs.  It is extraordinarily difficult to focus on stillness while one is starving to death.  Next, focus on safety.  When a bear is chasing you, one is highly unlikely to become "at ease with the inner self". :lol:  And so on, moving up the pyramid.  Which is not to say that it is impossible to jump to self-actualization without any of these more fundamental needs being met; Maslow's point is that one must have a solid foundation to lift into the heavens, metaphorically speaking.

Quote:

Deviate said:
I never said that enlightenment was just feeling an emotion of bliss 24/7




OK, great.  Why do you then promptly go ahead to contradict yourself in the very same paragraph?  :confused:

Quote:

Deviate said:
Steve Norquist said the Bliss of enligtenment was a million times beyond the bliss of IV heroin  and Jan Esmann says that Self-Realization is Love-Bliss and Ramana Maharshi described it as "undescribible bliss".




If you read Buddhist meditational texts (which I generally trust on the matter because they've been doing it for thousands of years), you will learn that yes, you will experience ecstatic states of supreme bliss during your meditation.  However, the point is not to focus on them.  Enlightenment is NOT one and the same with this state.  To move on to true Nirvana one must dispassionately regard the feeling of bliss, and just observe.  Do not cling to it, do not dwell it, do not confuse it for the eventual goal.  This is what I mean by saying our true Buddha nature is not an emotion.  It is not bliss, it is not happiness, it isn't anything at all.  :lol:  It just is (in other words, neutrality), and assigning value-laden labels like Bliss or Happiness to it means you have dragged your pure No-Mind down into the intellectual mire of conceptualization.

Before Enlightenment chop wood carry water, after Enlightenment, chop wood carry water.  :wink:

Quote:

Deviate said:
I SAID that in deep sleep there is a lack of emotion. Here is where we seem to disagree. You seem to think that without emotion, there can be no enjoyment, everything is neutral or something like that.




Absolutely.  Enjoyment is by definition an emotion.  Buddha-nature is beyond happiness and fear.  Buddha-nature just is, without any human qualifiers like you're trying to ascribe to it.  At least according to what I've gleaned from my readings on the subject and from personal experience.  :shrug:


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Edited by deCypher (07/30/14 12:10 AM)


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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Chronic7]
    #20362145 - 08/01/14 08:45 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
it can be good to reject blissfull experiences in favor of stable truth




This is what I strive for.

I have tried chasing bliss and it led me nowhere but downwards.  Ultimately I still believe the true nature of Reality is inapplicable for any of our human labels, including "love" and "bliss".  Neutrality is the best word I can think of to describe it, but of course even that is a human label in the end.

Ah, well, mysticism + language... what can you do?  Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent.  :grin:


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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Deviate]
    #20375736 - 08/04/14 11:21 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
This is what I strive for.

I have tried chasing bliss and it led me nowhere but downwards.  Ultimately I still believe the true nature of Reality is inapplicable for any of our human labels, including "love" and "bliss".  Neutrality is the best word I can think of to describe it, but of course even that is a human label in the end.

Ah, well, mysticism + language... what can you do?  Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent.  :grin:




Of course it's beyond words, for words are themselves of it and within it. However, the reason it can be nice to have it described as love-bliss is because if we said it was hate-pain, then who would want to approach it? I think that fear, is what holds most people back from really opening themselves up to the Lord, or the infinite. They prefer to stay closed off and contracted because even though it hurts a lot, it is familiar and gives them a sense of control and security.




I don't know, I kinda feel like it's false advertising to label enlightenment as love-bliss because in the end it is nothing compared to these human emotions.  Of course it's neither hate-pain, but you get the idea.

Perhaps the best way (indulge me as I try to market Enlightenment to the masses :lol:) would be to say that with Enlightnment, negative feelings simply go away.  This is more truthful than saying that one will experience 24/7 Love and Bliss while angels are singing heavenly choirs into your ear drums, certainly.  And I think it's pretty honest... Enlightenment involves dispassionately recognizing the constant flood of emotions, both positive and negative, that enter our mind-stream.  By recognizing them, not indulging in them, and letting them pass and go, one becomes free (or at least more free) from the chains of indulgence and restraining emotion.  :shrug:


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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Icelander]
    #20383056 - 08/06/14 02:43 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Perhaps we should leave it to those who are enlightened to define enlightenment to the masses.


and exactly how would the unenlightened know who those "enlightened" ones are?

I've seen enough around this place to know that they don't but think they do.  :satansmoking:




:thumbup:


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