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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinecircastes
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Untainted happiness being our nature
    #20319986 - 07/24/14 05:56 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Is this the essence of spirituality? The bliss of godliness, your own Self revealed, never lost never forgotten only journeying within itself with the use of the illusion of mind - some power it has to play with itself... finally, one day, rediscovers itself, usually in the later twilight years of life but in the true religious seeker comes early, these eager and thirsty souls, these sons of God... maybe in their twenties or thirties, they find out that...

...it is but your own nature that you have sought long after, your own essence... the eternal untainted happiness of nothing but what you essentially are.

Is that the essence of spirituality, is it the ultimate spiritual prize? Yourself, eternal and free, surely playing some trick on yourself... finally comes home and that's that.

Is there anything more spiritual?


--------------------
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My armour...

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InvisibleHeartAndMind
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: circastes]
    #20320697 - 07/24/14 09:50 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

I don't really know. That's what I'm pondering lately on. I really don't know, but I'm sure as hell that all this suffering and sense of needing something is not true.
I don't know now if I just stop striving for things, for the things that are essential for survival and overall physical well being I will be OK.
Something tells me that I won't. But life will show anyway.
There's that neediness to make things better or correct them for me. It's really driving me nuts. So I think that there's no thing that is spiritual. That's ever going to make me peaceful when I'll get it.
Maybe when I'll recognize something which always was and I'll have no doubt that it will be. Maybe if there is such thing, then it must be here as well. Not as a thing.

Excuse me for my rant, just felt like that. And your thread was there, very related. :crazy: :peace:


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Offlinemr lizard
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: HeartAndMind] * 1
    #20320974 - 07/24/14 11:27 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

"My sorrow will be over, when I get home"

If you live in a particular environment long enough you will tend to adopt the customs there and forget that there might be other ways to do things. I don't think there are many people who really feel at home in this world because we always have a sense that there is more to reality than what custom dictates. Spirituality to me is like returning to a default mind-state, with no preconceptions. It might be happiness, I don't know, I'm not there yet. I do know that I was much happier as a child so that might point to a truth in what you are saying.

The only time I have experienced pure Bliss was during a lucid dream where I learned a new kind of yoga from Diamond Dallas Page. I hadn't thought about DDP in over ten years but I googled him when I woke up and it turns out he actually is teaching people yoga these days..


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: circastes]
    #20321326 - 07/24/14 01:01 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

I think op is spot on.

When we withdraw our mind from the world and our past/future we are left with peace.  This peace is what death is I imagine.

Death is an illusion just like separation is.  Choosing pain instead of joy is the choice we choose.  That everlasting joy is always with us, even in our darkest moments, because we are forever free to withdraw ourselves from everything ephemeral, and be as we were created.  Unharmed and pure.  I don't think this is spiritual rhetoric but how things actually are when we escape the mind-programming that the world made of us.

The essence of living in the moment is peace, to be one with Christ.  To die each moment as Zen Buddhists would say.  Never looking back or forward and simply being is delightfully tricky, because the mind is intricately fashioned to run away from the present, to disguise it with different I's jousting for position of our attention, and they are all liars...Creations of the world.  Microcosms within us of what is happening outside of us.

It's a journey we are all on and one we all eventually learn.  We've been deceived since birth.  What's wonderful is the journey has an end.  Initial birth is the beginning of deception, the bodies cessation is the unveiling of the truth we've all been walking with.  The time in between is for us to play.  To choose this joy that is inherently ours, or trick ourselves with the illusion of suffering.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: cez]
    #20322062 - 07/24/14 04:08 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, that is pretty much it OP. The Philokalia states we must give up ALL hope in things visible. Contemplate that for a little while.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: circastes]
    #20322091 - 07/24/14 04:15 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Is this the essence of spirituality? The bliss of godliness, your own Self revealed, never lost never forgotten only journeying within itself with the use of the illusion of mind - some power it has to play with itself... finally, one day, rediscovers itself, usually in the later twilight years of life but in the true religious seeker comes early, these eager and thirsty souls, these sons of God... maybe in their twenties or thirties, they find out that...

...it is but your own nature that you have sought long after, your own essence... the eternal untainted happiness of nothing but what you essentially are.

Is that the essence of spirituality, is it the ultimate spiritual prize? Yourself, eternal and free, surely playing some trick on yourself... finally comes home and that's that.

Is there anything more spiritual?




IMO it's the center of self centered indulgence.  But you enjoy it until you have to leave home and get a job and experience the joys of nature (survival of the fittest)

I really don't understand what passes for "spirituality" around here.  I recently was in discussion with another poster here who responded when I pointed out all the evil and suffering his favored religion was causing in the world replied matter of factly that he was in no way concerned with that as long as the religion fulfilled his personal spiritual needs.  And there you have it folks.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (07/24/14 04:19 PM)


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: circastes]
    #20322407 - 07/24/14 05:19 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe? What is a spiritual prize?

I get those feelings of bliss, but then I come down and realize that the dishes need to be washed. Then later that night, I'm scared shitless in my bed thinking about existence. It all passes, even those bliss like states and scared states.


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: r72rock]
    #20323403 - 07/24/14 08:07 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Icelander]
    #20325013 - 07/25/14 02:25 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

circastes said:
Is this the essence of spirituality? The bliss of godliness, your own Self revealed, never lost never forgotten only journeying within itself with the use of the illusion of mind - some power it has to play with itself... finally, one day, rediscovers itself, usually in the later twilight years of life but in the true religious seeker comes early, these eager and thirsty souls, these sons of God... maybe in their twenties or thirties, they find out that...

...it is but your own nature that you have sought long after, your own essence... the eternal untainted happiness of nothing but what you essentially are.

Is that the essence of spirituality, is it the ultimate spiritual prize? Yourself, eternal and free, surely playing some trick on yourself... finally comes home and that's that.

Is there anything more spiritual?




IMO it's the center of self centered indulgence.  But you enjoy it until you have to leave home and get a job and experience the joys of nature (survival of the fittest)

I really don't understand what passes for "spirituality" around here.  I recently was in discussion with another poster here who responded when I pointed out all the evil and suffering his favored religion was causing in the world replied matter of factly that he was in no way concerned with that as long as the religion fulfilled his personal spiritual needs.  And there you have it folks.




If you are referring to me, then no, I never said that. I actually said I was deeply saddened by any suffering caused by the church.

But how can a religion "cause" suffering? It's people who cause suffering. A religion is just a set of beliefs and practices. It has no power to do anything except the power which you yourself give to it. You say religion causes suffering, how do you know that perhaps what if suffering is causing religion? Did you ever think of that one. If you only look at things from one angle, all you'll see is that angle, which appears to evidently be the case with you here. But what if causality is a little more complex than that, and things are all linked in a complex network of relationships which humans then label "causes" and "effects"


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: circastes]
    #20325087 - 07/25/14 03:17 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Nope, disagree entirely.

Our true "nature" isn't any kind of emotion.  Happiness is an emotion, bliss is an emotion, so is pain and so is suffering.

We are human beings and we experience these emotions when we are feeling good, or when we are feeling bad.  There is no intrinsic emotion to be felt without any initial prompting sensation.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleeasyskunkin


Registered: 12/23/03
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Deviate]
    #20325360 - 07/25/14 05:19 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:

But how can a religion "cause" suffering? It's people who cause suffering. A religion is just a set of beliefs and practices. It has no power to do anything except the power which you yourself give to it.




Wrong. Beliefs directly influence the way people act. For example, the ridiculous belief Germans are a superior race of promethean heroes and Jews an inferior race of parasites directly caused the holocaust. Superstitions about sorcery carried by the Catholic church led to the extermination of hundred of thousands, if not millions of individuals during the dark ages, etc...


--------------------
L'intérêt à croire une chose n'est pas une preuve de l'existence de cette chose.
Voltaire ; Remarques sur les pensées de Pascal (1728)


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: deCypher]
    #20326040 - 07/25/14 09:34 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Nope, disagree entirely.

Our true "nature" isn't any kind of emotion.  Happiness is an emotion, bliss is an emotion, so is pain and so is suffering.

We are human beings and we experience these emotions when we are feeling good, or when we are feeling bad.  There is no intrinsic emotion to be felt without any initial prompting sensation.




Our true nature is peace.  One can easily misidentify peace for joy or happiness.
We deviate from this nature as the body prompts us to maintain it..From there the peace becomes survival of the fittest which is not peaceful.

Peace is the intrinsic state of being for all animals IMO.


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InvisibleShroom Detective
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: circastes]
    #20326322 - 07/25/14 10:38 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:

...Is there anything more spiritual?




1 Corinthians 2:14 - "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."


--------------------
"I, Falcon91Wolvrn03, am a BIG FAT LIAR; so much so, that my pants are on fire."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Shroom Detective]
    #20327412 - 07/25/14 03:26 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

And if god said it, well...:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleKhancious
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: Icelander]
    #20327636 - 07/25/14 04:19 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
And if god said it, well...:satansmoking:




Now now Moses, thou shan't burn every bush, some you must trim

:chalkup:


--------------------
I am that, which is.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: cez]
    #20327740 - 07/25/14 04:46 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
Peace is the intrinsic state of being for all animals IMO.




How did you arrive at this conclusion?  Nature is a constant state of warfare; organisms eating each other, stealing each other's mates, competing for territory and food, etcetera etc.  Animals are lucky if they can feel peaceful.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: deCypher]
    #20327818 - 07/25/14 05:02 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Withdraw your mind from all worldly affairs and tell us what you feel.

Animals don't reflect and project like we do.  IMO it's much easier for them to maintain peace.  They have to take care of their bodily instincts as we do, but then they just go right back to peace whereas we then go to whichever delusion we deem fit for the moment.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: cez]
    #20327904 - 07/25/14 05:19 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Well, their mental state is certainly different from humans... they lack our specific level of self-awareness.  Consequently they cannot ruminate on their inevitable mortality, they cannot suffer from death anxiety, they cannot be tortured by guilt for past actions or by worry for future ones, and they are not bothered by any questions of right or wrong.

That is certainly a more peaceful mind-state than ours, I'll grant you, but in day-to-day life they are constantly occupied with the bare needs of survival: finding food, protecting their own, finding a mate, and making sure they live another a day.  That, to me, is not peace, even if they lack the capacity to deem it so.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: deCypher]
    #20328796 - 07/25/14 07:59 PM (9 years, 6 months ago)

I don't really care to endorse either view, but I feel I ought to interject to point out that it seems to me that cez is making reference to the concept of Buddha-nature, and relatedly samsara, karma and nirvana.

At least, his points remind me strongly of that spiritual configuration.  I hope that is a proper clarification.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Untainted happiness being our nature [Re: circastes]
    #20330660 - 07/26/14 05:04 AM (9 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Is this the essence of spirituality? The bliss of godliness, your own Self revealed, never lost never forgotten only journeying within itself with the use of the illusion of mind - some power it has to play with itself... finally, one day, rediscovers itself, usually in the later twilight years of life but in the true religious seeker comes early, these eager and thirsty souls, these sons of God... maybe in their twenties or thirties, they find out that...

...it is but your own nature that you have sought long after, your own essence... the eternal untainted happiness of nothing but what you essentially are.

Is that the essence of spirituality, is it the ultimate spiritual prize? Yourself, eternal and free, surely playing some trick on yourself... finally comes home and that's that.

Is there anything more spiritual?




All words miss the mark but that's pretty much it, realizing beyond belief that 'it', what you seek, however you word it, love, truth, peace, happiness, bliss, awareness, the universe, the source, infinity, is what you essentially are

Quote:

deCypher said:
Nope, disagree entirely.

Our true "nature" isn't any kind of emotion.  Happiness is an emotion, bliss is an emotion, so is pain and so is suffering.





If truth exists then in my opinion it must be true all the time, it must be lasting, permanent, and existent/true unto itself so beyond dependence on opposites for its existence, like DeCypher pointed out above it can't really be an emotion as no emotion lasts for very long and they all have opposites

So truth can't be an emotion, but that's not to say it isn't happiness/bliss, as strictly speaking is bliss even an emotion? is bliss a form of energy in motion? does bliss itself come & go?
Sure our attention can move, come & go, so our experience of different states comes & goes, but that's not proof that bliss itself comes & goes and therefore proof that bliss isn't synonymous with truth

The happiness we usually experience appears to come & go as it is usually in reference to some temporary thing having brought about the feeling of bliss, so when the desired thing goes or we no longer desire it the happiness appears to go along with it, so from that perspective calling our true nature happiness isn't right, as what lasting bliss is there in temporary things?
That isn't proof that bliss itself is a temporary thing, just that our attribution of it is

We use language to describe what we feel and experience, and in this sense happiness is an emotion, but only for the sake of language, if we look closer at it, when we feel bliss is that feeling on the move? Is bliss found in mental motion? Or isit felt/experienced/realized in and as stillness?

I like the term unalloyed happiness, as it is the same apparently moving/shapeshifting happiness we temporarily feel from worldly objects that come & go, but it is unalloyed, unmixed, untainted, distilled, straight up no mixer

No words are ever right when talking about truth, they are limited to pointers, signposts, if someone mistakes a signpost for the destination then they won't get anywhere

:dumblol:

Quote:

HeartAndMind said:
I don't really know. That's what I'm pondering lately on. I really don't know, but I'm sure as hell that all this suffering and sense of needing something is not true.
I don't know now if I just stop striving for things, for the things that are essential for survival and overall physical well being I will be OK.
Something tells me that I won't. But life will show anyway.
There's that neediness to make things better or correct them for me. It's really driving me nuts. So I think that there's no thing that is spiritual. That's ever going to make me peaceful when I'll get it.
Maybe when I'll recognize something which always was and I'll have no doubt that it will be. Maybe if there is such thing, then it must be here as well. Not as a thing.

Excuse me for my rant, just felt like that. And your thread was there, very related. :crazy: :peace:




What else can you do that you're not already doing? You seem to be surviving pretty fine to me, you're working towards a sustainable future and also have time to contemplate existence

Maybe if you gave full attention to attaining things of the world you could have surplus to survival, but you don't strike me as the kinda guy that would find those things satisfying for long... you tend to have your sights set higher


--------------------


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