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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
A questions or two about the matrix
    #2030906 - 10/22/03 12:49 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

In reloaded, Neo tells Morpheus that the oracle was just another "measure of control," a way to perpetuate the zion cycle that the machines use to maintain their control over human anomoly that is choice.

The oracle tells neo that he must go to "the source" to save zion. the architect tells neo that if he goes to the source then he will get to take 23 ppl from the matrix and start a new zion. The architect also tells neo that the previous incarnations of "the one" had a (sense of duty?) reason to accept the terms and start a new zion for the sake of humanity. Then the architect tells neo that while the others felt this resposability in a general way his was more specific, trinity.

Why is neo's need to save (expressed by his predecesors as obligation to perpetuate the zion cycle, and by him as love for trinity) against the wishes of the architect and the oracle? It doesn't seem to matter to him that the machines are likely to destroy the human race if he doesn't chose to help the machines, so long as he can save trinity.

Is it because his jesus complex is localized that he is dangerous to the system of control that the machines have constructed? Is neo the product of another major anomoly whereby he is the savior of the "real world" as well?



--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
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Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2030984 - 10/22/03 01:05 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

> Why is neo's need to save against the wishes of the architect
> and the oracle?

Its not clear why, maybe the other door is a trap, the place where they kill Neo.  In the first movie, people were waking up from the matrix, and then they founded Zion, and then searched for Neo.  So the Architect is probably lying when he says Neo gets to start a new society again.  Otherwise, Neo would have been in Zion at the beginning.

> It doesn't seem to matter to him that the machines are
> likely to destroy the human race

Well since this is the sixth time, might as well break the cycle by doing something different.  Plus, his options weren't limited to one-or-the-other, because there is still another 24 hours to do something.

>  Is neo the product of another major anomoly whereby he is the
> savior of the "real world" as well?

Might be, since he took out the machines outside of the Matrix at the end, or they just happen to be inside two Matrixes.

Guess we'll have to wait for Revolutions and see! :stoned: 


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,229
Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: pattern]
    #2031013 - 10/22/03 01:16 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

which is next month right?


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
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Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2031014 - 10/22/03 01:16 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

in my opinion, he went for trinity because if he went through the other door everything would be reset and he knows they would reprogram things even better this time and make it even harder to defeat them and snap out of the matrix....

Its that "fatal flaw" that the architect refers to, "hope," that drives him to the door on his left. He knows he'll still stay himself, and he knows zion will still be there, as powerful as it has gotten - he has hope that they can defeat the machines, because he sees that if he took the right door everything would reset and the machines would have another cycle to even FURTHER restrict "the anomoly" from occuring again.

Oh yeah another reason he did that was so they could make it a trilogy


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
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Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: Strumpling]
    #2031035 - 10/22/03 01:22 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

if he took the right door everything would reset and the machines would have another cycle to even FURTHER restrict "the anomoly" from occuring again




I agree.. the Architect shot himself in the foot by spouting off all that history.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: pattern]
    #2031056 - 10/22/03 01:28 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

hey Pattern, I'm wondering if you have any insight on who the "Mother" of the matrix is...

The architect said "she would undoubtedly be the mother" referring to a woman who realized that if you give the humans CHOICE they accept the matrix more willingly or something?

Then Neo says "the oracle" and the architect says "please!" as if to say "you dumbass!"

If I recall, the oracle was claiming that there was no choice in any matter whatsoever in life, because the choices had already been made, and that things were simply a matter of understanding these pre-determined choices, not MAKING them... So this agrees with the architect scoffing at Neo when he guesses "the oracle" in my opinion.

Would the mother, then, be that wife of that one asshole restaraunt owner? The woman who gave neo a choice to take the keymaker and kiss her or fuck off and never get the keymaker.... He played her game much more willingly than he originally accepted the oracle's ideas..

Is that hot girl that neo kissed the mother of the matrix? have we not met her? What's your opinion on this? WHERE'S MY MOMMY?!!!


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: pattern]
    #2031104 - 10/22/03 01:47 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

pattern said:
Otherwise, Neo would have been in Zion at the beginning.





Well, i would have thought that neos immediate predecesor would have started the current incarnation of zion, and that neo is a (one in a million type) anomoly that is able to threaten the machines control, i.e. the matrix.

As for the mother, i really do think its the oracle, i think the architect was saying "oh please, you need to be reaffirmed about everything, keep up will you."



--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
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Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2031130 - 10/22/03 01:54 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

well what was all that "no choice" talk that the oracle was giving him? I don't understand that..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (10/22/03 01:55 AM)


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OfflinePhluck
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 User Gallery

Registered: 04/11/99
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Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2031205 - 10/22/03 02:15 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

There needs to be some sort of film/book/art discussion forum... but I'm afraid it wouldn't attract a whole lot of posters.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
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Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: Phluck]
    #2031260 - 10/22/03 02:42 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

lol didn't you find that forum a while back?

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=Forum12

Music, Art, and Literature.

movies = art..

You're right, though - "but I'm afraid it wouldn't attract a whole lot of posters."

It doesn't. You could always head in there and attempt to change that though :smile:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: Strumpling]
    #2031322 - 10/22/03 03:01 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

she was talking about predestination. fate. which doesnt necessarilly counter the marovingian's beliefs about cause and effect.

and it wasn't no choice. it was something like "you've already made the choice, you're here to understand why you made it. i thought you would've figured that out by now"

this statement has me a little confused, seems like dogmatic prose.

the way i see it, if some of the "exiled" programs are working together to use neo to gain more control in the matrix (demons in hell relation like) then this whole oracle/architect/keymaker thing is a setup to get neo to fuck with the powers that currently control the matrix.

makes me wonder, maybe the marovingian et al have no interest in seeing the zion cycle perpetuated. they would want to see neo save (trinity specifically, and presumably humanity as well if we are to believe that it's the same instinct) which would allow the humans to continue disrupting the machines. they have to get neo to destabalize the control that the current ruling program possess'.

But they can't let the humans win. if the humans wipe out the machines they (or the HD's they are stored on) are likely to be smashed, as a result of the war or the celebrations the humans would surely have, we love to break stuff especially our conquered enemies.

but since the matrix has evolved to be a more human vs. machine conflict than human vs. supernatural, i think that it's more likely that the machines will fall. which means that the exiles ARE shooting themselves in the foot?

they probably aren't aware of neo abilities in the "real world" and fully expect zion to fall. i don't know, my heads all foggy.


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
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Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2031353 - 10/22/03 03:35 AM (14 years, 4 days ago)

"and it wasn't no choice. it was something like 'you've already made the choice, you're here to understand why you made it. i thought you would've figured that out by now'"

Yes. I recall....... but then what did the architect mean when he said that stuff about this mother finding that most people would accept the program as long as they were given a choice.. Hmm lol I'm so confused!

oo I just found this; check it out:
http://www.geocities.com/clark_kent0002/


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleLazerouth
Drunkard

Registered: 10/16/00
Posts: 1,091
Loc: England
Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: Strumpling]
    #2031632 - 10/22/03 07:15 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Heres a thought. It's just a movie.

All keanu reeves films are rip offs of the video game shadowrunner.


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
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Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2031888 - 10/22/03 11:32 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Why is neo's need to save (expressed by his predecesors as obligation to perpetuate the zion cycle, and by him as love for trinity) against the wishes of the architect and the oracle?




Architect: "Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix."

If Neo doesn't go into the other door, the humans all die, and the machines lose their source of power.



--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
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Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: Strumpling]
    #2031899 - 10/22/03 11:37 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Strumpling said:
hey Pattern, I'm wondering if you have any insight on who the "Mother" of the matrix is...

The architect said "she would undoubtedly be the mother" referring to a woman who realized that if you give the humans CHOICE they accept the matrix more willingly or something?

Then Neo says "the oracle" and the architect says "please!" as if to say "you dumbass!"

If I recall, the oracle was claiming that there was no choice in any matter whatsoever in life, because the choices had already been made, and that things were simply a matter of understanding these pre-determined choices, not MAKING them... So this agrees with the architect scoffing at Neo when he guesses "the oracle" in my opinion.

Would the mother, then, be that wife of that one asshole restaraunt owner? The woman who gave neo a choice to take the keymaker and kiss her or fuck off and never get the keymaker.... He played her game much more willingly than he originally accepted the oracle's ideas..

Is that hot girl that neo kissed the mother of the matrix? have we not met her? What's your opinion on this? WHERE'S MY MOMMY?!!!




Interesting I never really thought about it that way. You could be right. It could be Persophone, she gives Neo a choice: "Kiss me or kill me". I still believe the Oracle is a "good" machine. The way I figure it, something has to happen at the end so that the humans are freed and that some machines still live. One solution might be to free all the people from the matrix, but keep the matrix running, and humans can voluntarily enter it, providing the machines with power to live. Maybe the Oracle gets control at the end.

Some really cool commercials for the next movie here:

http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rv_cmp/trailers_rev_frames.html

My favorite is the "Power" commercial. "I'm not so bad, once you get to know me".


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


Edited by pattern (10/22/03 11:50 AM)


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OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
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Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: Lazerouth]
    #2031946 - 10/22/03 11:54 AM (14 years, 3 days ago)

There is no logical reason why Zion would be founded by humans. The first person to escape the Matrix was naked. How does a naked person dig through the earth towards the core? How does a naked person build houses? Why is there breathable air in the tunnels through the earth? Machines have no need for it, do they? Conclusion: the machines want Zion to exist.

Second: Neo stopping the Sentinels in the 'real world'. He can feel them. He can stop them. So maybe this door he took is just a hyperlink to another Matrix?
It would make sense, the portal to the mainframe brought him to the architect, and from there on there were two options:
1) a link to another, seperate 'real real world' Matrix (choice two: hope) - trapping him inside another Matrix with different code while the machines destroy Zion

or

2) the salvation of his race.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
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Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2031986 - 10/22/03 12:10 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Some text I found here:

Quote:

Agent Smith imprinting a human and Neo zapping the sentinels. Obviously, these two events are meant to represent a mirror-image of each other, and both stem from the entanglement between the two characters at the end of the original film. Somehow a little of each was imprinted on the other ? Smith neglects his programming to become precisely what he accused humanity of being, a virus, and Neo can already ?sense? the presence of sentient programs within the matrix at the beginning of the second movie. Each somehow has gained an ?in? to the other?s essential reality ? Smith?s sentience is able to commandeer human flesh and Neo?s ?brain-power? is able to command (or at least short-circuit) machines.




I think that explains away the double-matrix theory.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


Edited by pattern (10/22/03 12:12 PM)


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OfflineSpokesman
The HighPhilosopher

Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey U.S.
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2032026 - 10/22/03 12:27 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Alan Stone said:
There is no logical reason why Zion would be founded by humans. The first person to escape the Matrix was naked. How does a naked person dig through the earth towards the core? How does a naked person build houses? Why is there breathable air in the tunnels through the earth? Machines have no need for it, do they? Conclusion: the machines want Zion to exist.




Actually Zion was a city that survived the Machine vs. Human war. The original citizens of Zions were survivors who never got put into the Matrix. The the first anomoly was born within the Matrix and was freed by citizens hiding in Zion as part of a prophecy that one would come that would finaly end the war. Neo is the 6th.


--------------------


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OfflineSpokesman
The HighPhilosopher

Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey U.S.
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: Spokesman]
    #2032042 - 10/22/03 12:33 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Oh and Neo destropying the sentinals in the "real" world doesent neccessaraly indicate a double matrix exist. Remember Morpheous kept sayin that in the Matrix, people and agents operate in a worl based on 'rules'. Neo was the first to brake these 'rules'. What makes you think that this isnt posibble in the "real" world? Maybe the real world in this movie is a world not held down by rules and Neo is the "one" to discover this.


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: A questions or two about the matrix [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2032121 - 10/22/03 01:09 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Architect:
Please, as I was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99 percent of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at an near unconscious level.





if theres only a "nearly 99%" acceptance rate, then based on the "fields" of humans morpheus speaks of in part I it would seem that there would be at the very least millions of people who do not accept the matrix. this leads me to believe (along with neo's stopping the sentinels) that there would have to be multiple matrices or at least several layers to one matrix. even with the addition of only one matrix, this decreases the 1% rejection of the matrix to .01% or from millions to tens of thousands. after a few layers, the matrix would be almost entirely accepted on one level or another.

however, it doesnt exactly make sense that the machines would allow people to be "freed" from the primary layer of the matrix. also, why would they allow such insight into what was actually happening? perhaps the matrix is a series of layers that are forever cycling. The first layer being that of the world neo originally knew as reality, followed by the layer now thought of as reality including xion. instead of previous versions of the matrix, maybe they were instead layers, broken by anomalies similar to neo, who were then returned into the next layer of the matrix.

i suppose we'll see and as lazerouth says, its just a movie, its not like anything can be proven as its all fiction and is more than likely to have a few minor flaws.


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