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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: manna_man]
    #2028294 - 10/21/03 10:14 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Reality is.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: manna_man]
    #2028317 - 10/21/03 10:28 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

When I use the term reality, I mean "the creation" as in whats around us, this world, this universe etc

hmm maybe i need to rethink my definition


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get it all together get like birds of a feather

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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #2028353 - 10/21/03 10:40 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

the ayahuasca crowd has a saying: "when we dream alone it is but a dream, but when we dream together, ahh that's reality"


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We have to answer our own prayers

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: manna_man]
    #2028401 - 10/21/03 11:01 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I'd say reality is "THIS."


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: Annom]
    #2028679 - 10/21/03 12:29 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Color does exist in an object. It's all basic science and has nothing to do with a non-physical mind.

You're missing where I'm going, I think :smirk:

No, color does not exist in any objects. Color as we know it is simply the reflection/absorption of certain bands of EM frequency by an object before the light hits our eyes.

What I was trying to point out is that while "reality" may be physical in nature, our brains do add a LOT to what we consider "reality".

Look at your computer. It's a computer, right? It has Meaning to you as a computer. You understand certain things about the reality of that computer. Yet if you aren't there, looking at your "computer", then what is it? It is a lump of low-entropy matter and energy. It has no meaning.

Gah, this is very hard to put into words :smirk:

Ok: even if reality DOES ONLY exist in a materialistic sense, then at the VERY LEAST you must accept the fact that everything we consider "reality" is not actually out there physically. MUCH of our "reality" is added by the brain after input during processing, in the brief instants before conscious thought occurs.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: trendal]
    #2028832 - 10/21/03 01:07 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

> You're missing where I'm going, I think :smirk:

I'm already missing where I'm going... so that could be true...  :wink:

> No, color does not exist in any objects. Color as we know it is simply the reflection/absorption of certain bands of EM frequency by an object before the light hits our eyes.

Agreed. And if an object is emitting light? Does color exist in that object? And does a flute make sound? It's just a vibrating thing and a resonating flute.

> Ok: even if reality DOES ONLY exist in a materialistic sense, then at the VERY LEAST you must accept the fact that everything we consider "reality" is not actually out there physically. MUCH of our "reality" is added by the brain after input during processing, in the brief instants before conscious thought occurs.

I think I understand where you're going. You just gave me a tripping mind/brain :nut:...  But I still think that everything we consider "reality" is actually out there physically. Can you give an example of our "reality" that is added by the brain after input during processing?

Edit: your example was color, wasn't it? I don't see where the idea of color enters the non-physical realm;
white light on an object-->some frequencies are reflected-->the EM frequencies reach our eye-->the EM is converted into a signal to our brains-->the signal starts some unknown reactions in our brain-->these unknown reactions make us see the object.
This was all physical, from begin till end. Where is the non-physical data added?

:nut:   

Edited by Annom (10/21/03 01:34 PM)

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Invisiblesunyata
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Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 133
Re: What IS reality? [Re: Annom]
    #2028852 - 10/21/03 01:14 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Alan Watts:

Quote:

If I first see a tree in the winter, I might assume that it is not a fruit-tree. But when I return in the summer to find it covered with plums, I must exclaim, "Excuse me! You were a fruit-tree after all." Imagine, then, that a billion years ago some beings from another part of the galaxy made a tour through the solar system in their flying saucer and found no life. They would dismiss it as "Just a bunch of old rocks!" But if they returned today, they would have to apologize: "Well--you were peopling rocks after all!" You may, of course, argue that there is no analogy between the two situations. The fruit-tree was at one time a seed inside a plum, but the earth--much less the solar system or the galaxy--was never a seed inside a person. But, oddly enough, you would be wrong.

I have tried to explain that the relation between an organism and its environment is mutual, that neither one is the "cause" or determinant of the other since the arrangement between them is polar. If, then, it makes sense to explain the organism and its behavior in terms of the environment; it will also make sense to explain the environment in terms of the organism. (Thus far I have kept this up my sleeve so as not to confuse the first aspect of the picture.) For there is a very real, physical sense in which man, and every other organism, creates his own environment.

Our whole knowledge of the world is, in one sense, self-knowledge. For knowing is a translation of external events into bodily processes, and especially into states of the nervous system and the brain: we know the world in terms of the body, and in accordance with its structure. Surgical alterations of the nervous system, or, in all probability, sense-organs of a different structure than ours, give different types of perception--just as the microscope and telescope change the vision of the naked eye. Bees and other insects have, for example, polaroid eyes which enable them to tell the position of the sun by observing any patch of blue sky. In other words, because of the different structure of their eyes, the sky that they see is not the sky that we see. Bats and homing pigeons have sensory equipment analogous to radar, and in this respect see more "reality" than we do without our special instruments.

From the viewpoint of your eyes your own head seems to be an invisible blank, neither dark nor light, standing immediately behind the nearest thing you can see. But in fact the whole field of vision "out there in front" is a sensation in the lower back of your head, where the optical centers of the brain are located. What you see out there is, immediately, how the inside of your head "looks" or "feels." So, too, everything that you hear, touch, taste, and smell is some kind of vibration interacting with your brain, which translates that vibration into what you know as light, color, sound, hardness, roughness, saltiness, heaviness, or pungence. Apart from your brain, all these vibrations would be like the sound of one hand clapping, or of sticks playing on a skinless drum. Apart from your brain, or some brain, the world is devoid of light, heat, weight, solidity, motion, space, time, or any other imaginable feature. All these phenomena are interactions, or transactions, of vibrations with a certain arrangement of neurons. Thus vibrations of light and heat from the sun do not actually become light or heat until they interact with a living organism, just as no light-beams are visible in space unless reflected by particles of atmosphere or dust. In other words, it "takes two" to make anything happen. As we saw, a single ball in space has no motion, whereas two balls give the possibility of linear motion, three balls motion in a plane, and four balls motion in three dimensions.

The same is true for the activation of an electric current. No current will "flow" through a wire until the positive pole is connected with the negative, or, to put it very simply, no current will start unless it has a point of arrival, and a living organism is a "point of arrival" apart from which there can never be the "currents" or phenomena of light, heat, weight, hardness, and so forth. One might almost say that the magic of the brain is to evoke these marvels from the universe, as a harpist evokes melody from the silent strings.

A still more cogent example of existence as relationship is the production of a rainbow.(1) For a rainbow appears only when there is a certain triangular relationship between three components: the sun, moisture in the atmosphere, and an observer. If all three are present, and if the angular relationship between them is correct; then, and then only, will there be the phenomenon "rainbow." Diaphanous as it may be, a rainbow is no subjective hallucination. It can be verified by any number of observers, though each will see it in a slightly different position. As a boy, I once chased the end of a rainbow on my bicycle and was amazed to find that it always receded. It was like trying to catch the reflection of the moon on water. I did not then understand that no rainbow would appear unless the sun, and I, and the invisible center of the bow were on the same straight line, so that I changed the apparent position of the bow as I moved.

The point is, then, that an observer in the proper position is as necessary for the manifestation of a rainbow as the other two components, the sun and the moisture. Of course, one could say that if the sun and a body of moisture were in the right relationship, say, over the ocean, any observer on a ship that sailed into line with them would see a rainbow. But one could also say that if an observer and the sun were correctly aligned there would be a rainbow if there were moisture in the air!

Somehow the first set of conditions seems to preserve the reality of the rainbow apart from an observer. But the second set, by eliminating a good, solid "external reality," seems to make it an indisputable fact that, under such conditions, there is no rainbow. The reason is only that it supports our current mythology to assert that things exist on their own, whether there is an observer or not. It supports the fantasy that man is not really involved in the world, that he makes no real difference to it, and that he can observe reality independently without changing it. For the myth of this solid and sensible physical world which is "there," whether we see it or not, goes hand-in-hand with the myth that every observer is a separate ego, "confronted" with a reality quite other than himself.

Perhaps we can accept this reasoning without too much struggle when it concerns things like rainbows and reflections, whose reality status was never too high. But what if it dawns on us that our perception of rocks, mountains, and stars is a situation of just the same kind? There is nothing in the least unreasonable about this. We have not had to drag in any such spooks as mind, soul, or spirit. We have simply been talking of an interaction between physical vibrations and the brain with its various organs of sense, saying only that creatures with brains are an integral feature of the pattern which also includes the solid earth and the stars, and that without this integral feature (or pole of the current) the whole cosmos would be as unmanifested as a rainbow without droplets in the sky, or without an observer. Our resistance to this reasoning is psychological. It makes us feel insecure because it unsettles a familiar image of the world in which rocks, above all, are symbols of hard, unshakeable reality, and the Eternal Rock a metaphor for God himself. The mythology of the nineteenth century lead reduced man to an utterly unimportant little germ in an unimaginably vast and enduring universe. It is just too much of a shock, too fast a switch, to recognize that this little germ with its fabulous brain is evoking the whole thing, including the nebulae millions of light-years away.

Does this force us to the highly implausible conclusion that before the first living organism came into being equipped with a brain there was no universe--that the organic and inorganic phenomena came into existence at the same temporal moment? Is it possible that all geological and astronomical history is a mere extrapolation--that it is talking about what would have happened if it had been observed? Perhaps. But I will venture a more cautious idea. The fact that every organism evokes its own environment must be corrected with the polar or opposite fact that the total environment evokes the organism. Furthermore, the total environment (or situation) is both spatial and temporal--both larger and longer than the organisms contained in its field. The organism evokes knowledge of a past before it began, and of a future beyond its death. At the other pole, the universe would not have started, or manifested itself, unless it was at some time going to include organisms--just as current will not begin to flow from the positive end of a wire until the negative terminal is secure. The principle is the same, whether it takes the universe billions of years to polarize itself in the organism, or whether it takes the current one second to traverse a wire 186,000 miles long.

I repeat that the difficulty of understanding the organism/environment polarity is psychological. The history and the geographical distribution of the myth are uncertain, but for several thousand years we have been obsessed with a false humility--on the one hand, putting ourselves down as mere "creatures" who came into this world by the whim of God or the fluke of blind forces, and on the other, conceiving ourselves as separate personal egos fighting to control the physical world. We have lacked the real humility of recognizing that we are members of the biosphere, the "harmony of contained conflicts" in which we cannot exist at all without the cooperation of plants, insects, fish, cattle, and bacteria. In the same measure, we have lacked the proper self-respect of recognizing that I, the individual organism, am a structure of such fabulous ingenuity that it calls the whole universe into being. In the act of putting everything at a distance so as to describe and control it, we have orphaned ourselves both from the surrounding world and from our own bodies--leaving "I" as a discontented and alienated spook, anxious, guilty, unrelated, and alone.



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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: Annom]
    #2028950 - 10/21/03 01:48 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

No color isn't exactly what I was talking about there. Color is an example of sense-dependant reality.

There are aspects of what we know as "reality" beyond what is or can be considered "physical". These are Meanings, the notion of Self and individuality. There are probably many others that slip my mind right now :smirk:

When you look at something and understand what it is, or that it is separate, or living, you add this realization to your perception of the object. The object simply is something specific. This meaning is not inherent in the object itself, nor in any physical object, but is added to the "picture" during sensory processing.

How's that?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: trendal]
    #2029001 - 10/21/03 02:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

mmmm...

I think that these meanings are caused by chemical and electrical events in our brain. We don't experience these chemicals and electrical events as chemical and electrical events, but as meanings. Same story for the meaning that is added to the "picture", all physical reactions in our brain.

If everything in our head is caused by electrical/chemical events in our brain, do you still say that there is a reality beyond what can be considered physical?

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: Annom]
    #2029009 - 10/21/03 02:14 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yes :smirk:

I'm not saying that there are non-physical things which exist outside of consciousness  :wink: 

Though there could be...


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: trendal]
    #2029045 - 10/21/03 02:31 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I need to think at least 48 hours about this......  :smirk: :nut:

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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: Annom]
    #2029317 - 10/21/03 03:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I'm neither dualist/materialist and both at the same time. Everything is built up of energy. Only, the soul is a different kind of energy than matter itself is, but ultimately, they are both energy.

Matter is everything but the soul. The soul is that kind of high-frequency energy which creates consciousness in us, and makes us who we are. That which determines our basic mental urges. The soul is linked to the body through the bridge that is the brain.

The soul can influence the body (psychosomatic effects) and leave its marks in the brain (dendrites between brain cells), and the opposite can happen too, the body affecting the brain and thus the soul. If your body is needy, the brain will communicate this to the soul. If the body is undernourished, the bridge will suffer, and the soul is free to take over more of the brain. This is where hallucinations come from. Hallucinogens temporarily (or permanently in the case of HPPD) remove the filter on perception that is built into the bridge. This filter ensures the survival of our host body by focusing the conscious' attention on those stimuli which are important to survival.

Reality itself is a huge, amorphous blob of energy, dense in some places, less dense in others. The brain creates a hologram of stimuli that reach us from the raw energy, creating the input we call senses. What we see in objects, colour, gloss, structure, is just a visualisation of the frequencies and density of the energy. Same goes for sound, taste, smell and touch. If a tree falls and there's no one around to hear it, it makes no sound, because sound is part of the hologram the brain creates.
What we percieve as space is nothing more than a superstructure imposed on the hologram by our brains. What we percieve as time, is a measurement of change used to predict natural events, thus nothing more than an organisational and survival tool.

So, for those of you with short attention spans and a habit of skimming every text (or those I've lost in my rant): reality as we see it isn't real, it's all just amorphous energy. There is no real tangible and perceivable world without our mind to interpret the energy patterns.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2031835 - 10/22/03 09:11 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Man, if I hadn't already given you five shrooms, I would definitely be giving them to you now... :grin:

I feel the same way. All is energy. This is the connection between everything. The rest is just what we make of it..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: manna_man]
    #2031872 - 10/22/03 09:27 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

OTD response: Reality is j00r m0m!


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlineska8ball
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Registered: 03/19/03
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2031884 - 10/22/03 09:30 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Well what i have concluded in this interesting debate that resembles a few iv had with myself is that reality the makeup of reality, consciousness ect. Are all concepts that we have perceived in our minds. We cannot escape perceiving things through our minds (untill we die in my belief but thats a whole other issue) therefore all we consider to be 'reality' can only exist in our minds. If we cannot perceive reality without using our minds how can it exist outside of them. And if it does it cant exist within our minds because anything outside of them is incomprehensible by us. Well i hope i helped and if not i hope i provoked thought and if not i hope somebody read this....

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What IS reality? [Re: ska8ball]
    #2032023 - 10/22/03 10:26 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Reality cannot be experienced by anyone. The moment one starts to experience it, it is copied into their minds and begins to be molded by one's own mind....

It is like this: Reality exists on its own computer. The only way to experience it is to copy it onto your own computer. The reality on your computer isn't the True Reality, because the True Reality is on the other computer. There might be a lot of similarities, but it still isn't the True Reality...

Lucid dreams can be just as real as a day in the life of us while awake. The only difference is that no senses are pulling in information from the True Reality, so the reality on our computer can be molded to whatever we want it to be and it will still be reality....

God, I can't fucking wait until I start going completely lucid...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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