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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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I almost always simmer my grains ( oats and popcorn I strait boil) But I have skipped the simmer on a few occasions. The only down side I noticed was that my grains took way longer to dry. Actually one of my biggest harvests came from WBS that was soaked for 36 hours with no simmer.
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: How I Do WBS [Re: MudaFuka]
#20258966 - 07/11/14 05:56 PM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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yea for me its a quick drying thing with the simmer
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,097
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: You may be right. You might be getting more water in to the WBS by simmering, but that doesn't mean skipping it is less optimal. I'm confident that the difference in water is measured in the low gram area and has no measurable impact on yields, at least when considering other water sources that come in to the equation during the cultivation process.
Well that isn't optimal if you can get more in it, even if it's only a little bit more. Like I said, I'm sure it works, but you could get a bit more yield with some more water.
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Just to see, because I'm guessing, I will prepare WBS for 2 monos. I will weigh the grain so they are equal and use a typical amount. I will simmer one batch and PC, and no cook and PC the other. After they are cool, I will dump them and weigh them again. This will tell me the water difference. Sound reasonable?
Sounds good. If you have an isolate, use that on them and see the real difference through the whole grow.
Also, try it how I do it while you're experimenting. Rinse very well, then soak, but keep the soak water as hot as you can. I probably change mine every 3 or 4 hours, leave it while I sleep then change it again the next morning, till I'm ready to simmer. If you're using gypsum, add it right before you simmer. Then drain in a colander and dry it the same way you're gonna dry your other WBS.
IME, keeping the soak water hot and simmering on very low for a while gets more water in the grain than I thought possible before I tried it. It's a noticeable difference.
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Although your logic seems reasonable, sometimes reality flies in the face of logic. I'm not trying to convince anyone to stop cooking WBS. I'm just offering an alternative that works equally well.
IDK about equally well, but if you test it we'll find out. It definitely does work though. People have been doing it roughly like this for years now.
I'm gonna scale back on my actives, maybe even switch to purely exotics, and ramp up some edibles in hopes of starting a business soon (having a kid, don't want to be in jail and leave the mom to raise the kid alone) so once I do that I'll probably document some shit.
-------------------- Pat The Bunny said:
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bodhisatta said:
i recommend common sense and figuring it out.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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I don't know what the force is called, but water has a surface tension. You can see it if you fill a glass to the top and then just a little more before it spills over. Right at that point, you can see the water actually above the rim of the glass but not spilling because of this tension. Forgive me if my terminology is not accurate, but hopefully you get what I mean.
Heat will break this surface tension and cause the water to spill over. This is at least part of the reason why steam evaporation occurs after the cooking of grains.
When we don't heat the grains and just drain them, the same force that causes the water's surface tension also causes the water to wrap the grains. I think you can imagine it like a cocoon around the grain.
Without heat, the surface tension is strong enough to keep water adhered to the grain for a long period of time. Because of this, the vast majority of water will be removed from draining within 10-20 mins, or maybe even sooner. I've left uncooked WBS in the strainer for 5 hours and it looks the same as it did 20-30 mins after pouring it in.
If left out long enough, the water will evaporate due to other climatological reasons, but heat is a catalyst. My house is usually 70-75F in the summer and all my stuff is done indoors. A hot, dry house with fans going may impact results, but likely only minimally.
The main point I'm trying to make is that you don't need to let uncooked WBS sit more than 30 mins or so, maybe even not that long, because they won't get any dryer. Your grains will seem too wet before you PC.
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tripdawg420
low life with no life



Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 7,653
Loc: illinois
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i want 2 more oz per flush
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SHROOMYG
Strange



Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 613
Last seen: 6 years, 26 days
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No simmer and drain until grain feels dry and rolls off your hand ive found thats really important if you get impatient and load your jars damp its all bad
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Measuring the water content of the grain should be enough of an experiment. If there is no significant difference in water content of the grain, then there should be no significant difference in yields, all else being equal.
Besides, one of the advantages of the no cook over your method is that I don't have to nurse a batch of WBS. I can put it in water before work and drain it when I get home.
At this point, I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you and move on with what I do. If the experiment I lined out is not good enough for you , then I won't bother because I don't care enough do it just for me.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Re: How I Do WBS [Re: SHROOMYG]
#20259244 - 07/11/14 06:59 PM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMYG said: No simmer and drain until grain feels dry and rolls off your hand ive found thats really important if you get impatient and load your jars damp its all bad 
My WBS is always wet when it goes in the jar. If it's not, then it seems too dry for the spawn run. I don't know how you get uncooked WBS dry nor do I try to.
For the sake of conversation, I try and distinguish between WBS and other grains to eliminate confusion. I always boil and dry my rye, but never WBS.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: I don't know what the force is called, but water has a surface tension.
Its called the "meniscus"
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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It's possible that simmering weakens the cellulose of the grains, allowing for easier digestion. This could account for increased yields(though I find 2 oz per flush increase highly dubious) from simmered grains, and not the water content. Just a theory, that I have no idea how I'd go about actually testing.
Edited by TheEaglesGift (07/11/14 09:57 PM)
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Quote:
Rinse very well, then soak, but keep the soak water as hot as you can. I probably change mine every 3 or 4 hours, leave it while I sleep then change it again the next morning, till I'm ready to simmer.
Wouldn't this leach out a ton of nutrients from the grains?
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Quote:
The main point I'm trying to make is that you don't need to let uncooked WBS sit more than 30 mins or so, maybe even not that long, because they won't get any dryer.
This is just entirely untrue. With a fan pointed on uncooked grain, and a few stirs per hour, they WILL get entirely dried out in a few hours. I've done it more than once. Uncooked grain that has been thoroughly dried in the strainer, I find is too dry for a spawn run. I often times leave mine somewhat damp like you do, but I have dried them entirely in the strainer before and gone on to have success with it.
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Edmunter
Mr



Registered: 05/01/13
Posts: 5,699
Last seen: 3 months, 7 days
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: Measuring the water content of the grain should be enough of an experiment. If there is no significant difference in water content of the grain, then there should be no significant difference in yields, all else being equal.
Besides, one of the advantages of the no cook over your method is that I don't have to nurse a batch of WBS. I can put it in water before work and drain it when I get home.
At this point, I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you and move on with what I do. If the experiment I lined out is not good enough for you , then I won't bother because I don't care enough do it just for me.
If you are doing 2 mono tubs it would be interesting to see how an isolate works with the 2 different methods. Im a couple of transfers short of an isolate(No comments please ) When I get there I will try a comparable grow and log it.
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SpitballJedi
Ancient Astronaut



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 8,598
Loc: Nibiru
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Quote:
TheEaglesGift said: It's possible that simmering weakens the cellulose of the grains, allowing for easier digestion.
1.5 hours in a PC at 15psi does more to cook it than the simmer does.
Quote:
TheEaglesGift said:
Quote:
The main point I'm trying to make is that you don't need to let uncooked WBS sit more than 30 mins or so, maybe even not that long, because they won't get any dryer.
This is just entirely untrue. With a fan pointed on uncooked grain, and a few stirs per hour, they WILL get entirely dried out in a few hours. I've done it more than once. Uncooked grain that has been thoroughly dried in the strainer, I find is too dry for a spawn run. I often times leave mine somewhat damp like you do, but I have dried them entirely in the strainer before and gone on to have success with it.
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: If left out long enough, the water will evaporate due to other climatological reasons, but heat is a catalyst. My house is usually 70-75F in the summer and all my stuff is done indoors. A hot, dry house with fans going may impact results, but likely only minimally.
Of course, blowing a fan directly on the WBS will increase drying rates. But that's not what I do. You don't want your WBS dry before it goes in the PC.
My statement stands as true. I've watched it happen for around 200lbs of WBS prep.
Just a reminder for noobs, I am talking about uncooked WBS, not cooked WBS or rye. You won't need a fan for uncooked WBS because you will likely get it too dry.
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Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,243
Loc: Right Here
Last seen: 3 hours, 22 minutes
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Ok, I did this this tonight with 7 jars.
The jars look too wet for me. And then there's that 2 hour dry time.
I follow RR's rye grain tek but with a 5-6 minute boil. No burst grains. Perfect moisture. No waiting. I keep turning the WBS until the steam stops coming off the grains, then I put it in the jars.
I'm going to stick with that. Sorry man.
Edited by Asura (07/12/14 11:35 PM)
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,438
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Re: How I Do WBS [Re: Asura] 1
#20265204 - 07/13/14 12:07 AM (10 years, 6 months ago) |
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If we didn't need to boil grains to hydrate them completely then asians would just soak their rice and drain it to eat it.
Maybe I'm just picky because I had cigarettes put out on my neck and was beaten as an apprentice sushi chef when I made mistakes. I know how to hydrate rice to perfection.
I will always boil. Heat absolutely helps hydrate the grain.
But as far as whether tha helps increase yield I couldn't say. If boiling grain to perfection were a party trick I'd be the guy who get's invited to every weekend blowout.
Sadly it's a lonely, nerdy talent.
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Quote:
If we didn't need to boil grains to hydrate them completely then asians would just soak their rice and drain it to eat it.
I actually used to do this when I was a raw vegan. It's perfectly possible, ironically.
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,438
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Quote:
TheEaglesGift said:
Quote:
If we didn't need to boil grains to hydrate them completely then asians would just soak their rice and drain it to eat it.
I actually used to do this when I was a raw vegan. It's perfectly possible, ironically.
Yeah but cooked rice tastes way better than soaked rice.
If mycelium could talk I'm sure it would agree.
Doesn't mean it yields more though.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber
The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it
Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.
"The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT
Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen
Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Cooked rice does taste better to humans. To mycelium? I don't think so.
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